Chinese Martial Arts Business

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I wanted to start a network group for Chinese Martial Arts School owners to discuss all aspects of running a professional school. Discussions are open to Curriculum, Sales, Marketing, Systems, etc. I have 15 years experience running Chinese Martial Arts Schools and I've certainly made a million mistakes. Fortunatly, my schools are now sucessful and profitable. But it wasn't always like this.

I'd like to communicate with other owners to share experiences.

[Royal Dragon]

Like what?

[ngokfei]

hey michael

just watched your video seminar on opening up multiple schools (napma).

Very informative. Keeps things in perspective.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Eric, How long ago was that? Wow, I think that was like 1996 or 1997. Does it have a date?

Are you running a school? You are in Cali, right?

[PlumDragon]

Michael,

At what point do you decide you are ready/prepared to open a school? Did you make the determination, or did your sifu? Did you start with a few students in a park or garage ro something, or did you take the path that most other businesses took (ie, get a loan from a bank, rent a building, do all the advertising, etc)?

Thanks in advance

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I opened my first school in 1991, with the support (not financial) of my Sifu. Until this point, we rented (mostly done by a training brother) space in NYC and taught class a few hours per week. At the time, there was very little information out there, regarding MA business. Things have changed dramatically since then.

To open a school, on a full time basis, you most likely need approx. $15K (shoestring budget). To do it the right way, somewhere between $25-$35K is more realistic. Not to mention having some $$$ in the bank to support and capitalize your business.

I have two schools right now. I have had up to 5 at one time. A single school should and can gross over $40,000 per calendar month. That will give the head instructor/owner (provided that they are one in the same) approximately $12K-$25K in profit each month. Like I said, the MA business has come a long way.

Best of luck!

[Wong Ying Home]

Oh to earn $40k pcm at my school :-)

Whats your secret to maintain traditional levels of skill development and hard training?? With so many students

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Actually, I don't have so many students. Not compared to some schools. Not even compared to some less profitable schools. I only have between 200-300 students in each school.

In answer to your question; a well thought out and structured curriculum, including monthly planners, a rotating curriculum and lessons plans - is how to maintain quality control in your school. If a school does not have these systems in place....it's kinda hard to produce a consistant result.

As usual, this is my opinion and my observation, working as one of the only Chinese Martial Arts consultants in the industry.

[ngokfei]

yeah the tape is probably from then, kind of a hand me down.

Actually am in the suburbs of Georgia.

Teach a small group but hope to eventually open a space when the "little one" is older. Have to make due until then. Gives future students some good stories about the old basement days :D

For the past 8 years have mainly been gathering information on the MA industry. Can never to be prepared.

I guess at least $20k to be the minimum for a full time, money making school. An after Work school I think you could get away with $10k

PS: your website is excellent, have come away with good ideas.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Question:

Are most schools offering rank in Chinese MA? Do you have a black belt or black sash as a level?

[TenTigers]

Sifu Parella,
could you please explain the rotating curriculum? I have heard it mentioned by many successfull MA school owners, but I am having trouble really understanding it.
Also, and this is a biggie in my book, how do you develop loyal students? Finding staff members? (try to find someone who is energetic, on the ball, good communication skills, and ISN'T going on to college or med school!)
Thanx,
TT

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Sifu Kellerman,

Rotating curriculum is actually very simple and I believe the most effective method for running your school. I will explain it briefly, you are welcome to call me to discuss it in detail.

The main idea is that everyone in a specific class learns the same material for a period of time (say, two months). Let's take a basic class for instance. Mine runs for approximatly six months (if the student never missed class). The curriculum for that class is divided into 4 parts, each part 2 weeks long. For two weeks, all the basic students, white yellow or orange, all learn the same material. Let's face it, you don't need a lot of pre-requisits to learn anything within 6 months. When these students go to graduation, they all do the same material together.

Example: Johnny has been training in the school for 2 months. He has graduated and learned 1 full cycle of Basic Curriculum, let's call it cycle 1. Billy Joins up and begins takeing class and they both learn cycle 2 together. They both graduate and demonstrate cycle 2 curriculum. Joe joins and takes his first lesson with both Billy and Johnny. They all begin cycle 3 curriculum. They all graduate.

Johnny, having learned all three cycles moves onto another level of training (if he hasn't been invited to do so already - we'll talk about that later)

Billy, has taken cycle 2 and 3 and is about to complete his third cycle.

Joe, has taken cycle 3 and not rotates back to, and will learn cycle 1.

Does that explain it? A rotating curriculum allows the instructor to teach everyone of certain levels, the SAME material for a period of time. It makes you more effective, by not splitting your attention to 3 different levels of curriculum in class and makes graduations go smoothly.

Does that make sense?

As far as staff training, we could talk about it all day. My schools do make a consideral amount of income. It does allow us to pay our employees very well. There are three levels of employees in our schools. Part Time Instructors or Program Directors (called a "number 3" person), Full Time Program Director (number 2) and Chief Instructor (number 1) Do you want to keep and have professional staff? Start by building your business so that you can afford to pay them a professional wage. #3 person gets approx. $300-$450 per week, number 2 makes $650-$1300 per week, and the number 1 earns $750-$2000 per week and can earn even more. All these numbers are a reflection of a competitive base salary and commission/bonuses. Bonuses for number of new enrollments and other areas, and commissions based on the gross income of the school each month. For two many years, my schools could only pay people $250-$650 each week, depending on the position. As I have developed systems in my schools that enable me to earn more money, I can now offer CAREERS, NOT JOBS! That was a big change for me!

Developing loyal students,....hmm, let me see. First, give them what they want. I didn't say 'teach them what they want', but allow them to progress. They came to you to get BETTER. Teach them in a way that allows them to actually improve their skills and be recognized for it. And then learn to walk the talk. As a head instructor, YOU are the product. Train hard, IN your business and ON your business. Stay in good shape, have integrity and keep all your promises. Don't screw anybody with money, and don't provide a craapy service. In the end, people train with someone they respect,...or else they leave. Sound familiar? Think about it. Be a leader in your schools, boys and girls. If you don't know how to do this, be responsible and learn how.

And one more thing about students; Don't be thier friend. Be their Instructor. That is what they came to you for in the first place, remember? The rule of thumb is: Be personable with your students. Don't be personal.

All the best!

[Oso]

After getting my 'sifu' title from the teacher I had been with for 13 years I moved to a different town with the basic goal of teaching/opening my own school.
FTR, I have been training since 1982. 7 year in one style then 13 and now 2 years with Pong Lai.

I didn't have the ability to get the capitol to start up right away and my personal financial situation meant I needed to continue having a day job.

So, I started teaching in a gym. Adults only.
Then I opened a kids only program at a rec center.
Then I moved my adult program to the rec center to consolidate my efforts.

Last September I saw a space for rent close to my house and checked on it and found I could pay the rent with the existing students. So, with about $4500 I opened the doors.

After fiddling with class times I've settled on this:

Tue/Thur 6:30 - 7:30 Novice - No sash - white sash - gold sash
Tue/Thur 7:30 - 8:30 Beginner - Orange - Purple - Blue
Mon/Wed 6:30 - 8:83 Intermediate and up

Mon/Wed 5:45 - 6:30 Kids 8 - 12

I generally bring 13 and up straight into adults after consultation with the parents and observation of the kid.

I don't want to mess with the 5 - 7 year old age group at this point - having said that, I have 1 five year old.

Adults start coming to the two 1-hour classes and as they progress move into other classes. They still have the option to come to the lower level classes for refresher lessons. Eventually they can come to 8 hours a week if they so wish.

I run a rotation through the curriculum as well but slightly different then Lama Pai Sifu illustrated above.

I have my curriculum broken up into categories: Forms, Hand Drills, Kicking, Chin Na, throwing, etc. Each sash level has the same major categories. I will teach the same category for 1 or 2 weeks and then shift. We almost always work solo forms at least a little bit every night as well as the arm drills.

Not growing at all though. Averaging one new student every 2-3 months.

Competition in town is pretty stiff. There are around 30 schools in the county, most of them concentrated within the city limits. City Pop. is about 75k with a total county pop. of 225k.
Most of the schools are your average karate/tkd schools with just a few standouts, IMO.

Over the last year I've run newspaper ads and community newsletter ads and posted flyers on every bulletin board in town.

At the moment, as happens every summer with my day job, I'm simply too busy to work on more marketing. It will be september before I can look in that direction again.

I had dropped sash ranking at one point but picked it up again as it is an instrumental tool in attracting and keeping students in a commercial school.

[stubbs]

I?ve never opened a school or taught full time but I expect to do so, hopefully within the next year so if anyone can help with any of the questions below I?d be very grateful:

Location:

How do you look into a locations potential? I?m not sure if they?d provide the information but I was thinking about writing to a few MA magazine companies to see how their sales compare in different regions. I know this wouldn?t be very accurate but might give me a rough idea. I?ll also compare the sales figures to the number of clubs in the area.

Venue:

What ?must haves? are there for choosing a venue i.e. toilets, showers, changing rooms, storage facilities? (bear in mind this would just be starting off from a small club so I?m not looking for luxuries ? just necessities)

Splitting the classes up:

Age ? Under 15?s for kids classes and 16+ for adults. Would that work as a good split?

Gender ? Whats your opinion on women only classes? Are they successful?

Skill level ? Should classes be mixed or would you split them up? I was thinking mixed classes with maybe one or two adult advanced classes a week.

Lesson emphasis ? whether its fitness, technique, health, or competition emphasis:

Maybe having a pad workout twice a week to accommodate the people that just want to do MA for the fitness and conditioning benefits ? could be advertised as martial arts aerobics or something similar.

Technique lessons could be mixed and would be the ?core? class.

Flexability and Chi Kung could be separate for people only after the health benefits or aren?t able to do regular exercises. Could bring in some older students.

Competition based classes would be something I would look at at a later stage but what are your opinions? I think it would be a nice follow up class to the fitness-based classes.

Collecting fee?s:

Do your students pay as they go or are they members that pay a monthly subscription?

Sales:

Do you have a club uniform? Do you sell this? Do you sell other clothing, footware, weapons, training aids or nutritional products on the side? Do you sell these outside of your club too? How do you approach manufacturers/wholesellers?

Advertising:

Where do I start?! Newspapers? MA magazines/websites? Gyms/Leisure centres? Flyers?

Thanks for any advice!
________
Bong (http://glassbongs.org/)

[Mutant]

Great thread Sifu Parrella, very interesting info.
Also, thanks to other guys for great input too.

We (Boston Sanda Kungfu) are interested in learning all we can about running a school, both for our own use and for the benefit of the students.
We'd be interested in learning anything we can about this business, and also sharing any experience that we have with other CMA schools.

Question (something I'm looking into currently): We'd like to get a group health insurance plan together... is there any particular martial arts specific things we should know or any insurers that specialize in catering to martial arts schools? Whats the most cost effective way to get insurance for a small group of martial artists?

[Mutant]

Venue:

What ‘must haves’ are there for choosing a venue i.e. toilets, showers, changing rooms, storage facilities? (bear in mind this would just be starting off from a small club so I’m not looking for luxuries – just necessities)


We originaly though we would need separate men's and women's changing/locker/shower rooms, but had to compromise on our square footage, so we simplified things into one changing room with seperate bathroom. For gear we have a grid of open square cubbies that people can stash clothes in. So far it seems to be working well, even on busy nights, with one shared toilet room, one shower, and a seperate common unisex changing room that has 3 changing stalls. The stalls are about 3'x3' (smaller than you would think can work, but they actually work fine) with hooks and bifold doors. We copied the basic layout of changing stalls that you would find in a retail clothing store. About half our clients are women, and it seems to run comfortably and smoothly. So far so good. Now I'm glad we didnt spend money and extra square footage building larger more complex men's and womens locker rooms, and adding more sinks, toilets, lockers.

Storage room space is important too. We are going to build a locking storage room approx 12'x15' by 8' high and frame it on top with 2x6s so that we can store things on top as well.

[CoonAss]

let me ask this question.

is it possible to operate a good martial arts business/school while holding a full-time job which has you on a Swing Shift???

i've been having problems with figuring this out. now, i'm not looking to be able to make a bunch of money. just have a good school.

thanks , Steve

[CoonAss]

Chris,

thanks for your reply and breakdown of my post. i appreciate your explanatory observations of my post. i tend to post in the broken pattern of thought that i have.... LOL.... let me try to elaborate on my situation and my thoughts on it, more clearly.


i have a few students, who i teach on a (swing shift) regular basis. by this i mean, we have scheduled classes which are set on a monthly basis, not your typical weekly (m-w-f) schedule. i charge a modest amount of $40/month, per student. i know the material and time are worth more - however, i feel that since we do not train in a Commercial bldg, anything more would be senseless. i dont need the money, in fact i give it to my wife, but i enjoy teaching others and watching them grow and progress.

i was not charged for my instruction, by my sifu. my drive time, commitment and loyalty was payment enough (according to him). so, i feel funny charging for something that was a "Gift" to me. does this make sense? where i live there is little competition, by that i mean there are two TKD schools and one CMA school, in the whole county.... and its not a high income county.

i guess my question is: what is the feasbability of operating a school, in a commercial bldg - with a "monthly training schedule" that consists of each week having different days? i realize or believe they are slim, but figured someone may have some ideas or know someone who does this.

more of a broad "feeler" question.

Steve - Yuen Kay San Wing Chun (in case ya'll were wondering)... :rolleyes:

[CoonAss]

by the way, i think your idea for a CMA Business/school forum is a GREAT idea. you seem to have great ideas and insight....

i'd love to talk more on this subject, with you OR others....

Steve

[CoonAss]

Chris,

again, thanks for your input. i would also be interested in hearing what Sifu Parella thinks.

why do i want to branch out/expand/move? good question, i think it comes down to passing on what i know and have learned to a broader spectrum of people. of course, this can only be done (properly) with a detailed and structured curricullum. the more you have, the more slip through the cracks (so to speak)

additionally, i would like to teach those interested some legitimate and worthwhile martial arts. No offense to anyone out there, as i have met some outstanding Korean MA's, but here - while the schools arent the worse - they surely wouldnt hold up to many.

i agree that the potential for this school is great, my schedule may not be - as you have mentioned.

so, my vision or future ideas are: to increase my student base, (right now i'm training my Core Group) and open a school in town, which would be easily seen and commuted to. right now we work out in Carports and Barns. i love it, but i'd also love to have an established school. kinda hard to explain. you see, down here, there are very few CMA schools - the ones we have are scattered (total of maybe 12 in two states).

i want to spread the CMA and my system, so that anyone who wants to can easily learn Kung Fu. not everyone is as fortunate as me, gas for my training alone was more than most tuition out there (traveled 1.5 hours - one way to train).

my concern is my schedule, which i believe is going to be the primary problem for most individuals, considering Human beings are creatures of habit. so a set weekly schedule is ideal compared to a monthly one that someone has to check their calendar for class dates.....

Steve

[stubbs]

Hi Steve,

Do you have a training partner or someone who is equally skilled that would be able to take the lessons when your not available?

Another option would be to just do private lessons and offer free group sessions once a fortnight or something?

Just an idea.
________
Buy volcano vaporizer (http://vaporizers.net/volcano-vaporizer)

[CoonAss]

Hi Steve,

Do you have a training partner or someone who is equally skilled that would be able to take the lessons when your not available?

Another option would be to just do private lessons and offer free group sessions once a fortnight or something?

Just an idea.


stubbs,

No, not anyone else - other than my sifu, who surpasses me in many ways.... i do have one Sihing, however i've been told by my sifu that he is only above myself in terms of when he started.. :(

hence, why i am trying to train my core group. that way, they might be experienced and competent enough to teach the basics (which in our system is the key to our kung fu, much more than forms - although they are important).

Steve

[ngokfei]

Now we got it going on!

Teaching:

Start out small. Privates make the money, Groups use less time.

Space:

- find one you can afford but location, location, location. Windows yes.

- Don't clutter up your space. If its a club then using the bathroom as a changing room is okay. If you must have changing rooms then try the curtain idea. When class starts you can pull them to the side.
- A wall unit with cubby holes is a must along with a coat rack. I'm lucky as most students arrive in their uniform already.
- A small desk or wall unit is all you need for storage. Keep the bulk of your stuff at home. Its much safer anyway. I've lost alot over the years.

Keep the space clean. Mirrors are great, especially to make the space appear larger.

material/lessons:

Definetly use the Rotating Curriculum idea. It saves not only time but the need for assistant instructors, especially when you are just starting out.

Equipment:

If possible sell everything through your club. Have your equipment with your logo on it and make it the allowed/requirement. But to get good prices you'll need a business license and a tax id to get wholesale. Keep it simple. Sweats and a T-shirt. Silkscreen them yourself.

lots more ideas (hope to apply them all one day :D

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Most school owners to have membership agreements (contracts) right? I would like to see who does and who doesn't.

[CoonAss]

Thanks Eric,

good ideas and input.

how about anyone else.

Steve

[TenTigers]

I have contracts, but I need to take a hard line when it comes to cancellations, or freezing memberships. I know that freezing a membership is bad-you don't tell your bank that you are going on vacation, so you would like to freeze your mortgage payments, or your car payments. And I know I should not cancel memberships-they should stick to their commitment as well. But...I also don't want someone who doesn't want to be here, staying because they are locked into a contract, then griping i n the locker room, or in the lobby to the next prospective student that is there. Disention spreads like a cancer.
Of course, if there is a disatisfied student, I try to fix it, do damage control, underpromise, overdeliver, etc, but if I don't know the promise exists, I can't attempt a fix. It's one thing if a student is starting to lose iinterest, I can charge them up, work one on one with them, get them psyched up again, possibly get them over a hump in their training, but if they don't tell me, and disappear, then when I call them up, they are hemming and hawing...etc not an easy thing. And then there is that fine line between "servicing your clientele" and begging your students.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

This is a constant debate between MA schools of all backgrounds. Here is my take on it;

Contacts are required to be a successful business.

The reason a student joins a school, should not be because they can 'pay' differently then other schools. We are not a cellphone company. Each martial arts school should offer something different or have a different level of service than a competitor. Cellphone companies are all a like, apples and apples.

I get sick everytime I see the words "No Contracts" on a sign on a martial arts school. If all schools were exactly the same, same style, same instruction, then I could understand the marketing agle. But it's uniformed and unprofessional people that thing they will get a big school and have a big edge because they offer 'no contracts'. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Contracts are promises. We deal with them in every part of our life. They are not negatives, they are positives. Cars, Mortgages, Rentals...everything has a contract. A contract is for the benefit of BOTH parties, not just one.

MA schools need contracts (agreements) for 'ease of operations' and for security of business. If you are a martial arts school, you cannot succeed by getting 'juggled' from your students regarding payment. Contacts guarantee a student that they will receive a specific service and that the school owner will get paid for that service. Case closed.

It's up to the school owner how they wish to enforce contracts. My schools are certainly not big on taking a student to court if they don't pay. Your relationship to your students however, should be clearly outlined from the day you begin training with them. This way, there is not confusion.

For the most part, schools that don't use contracts are not helping their students to succeed. WHAT DID HE JUST SAY? That's right, if you don't use contacts, you are allowing your students to quit when they want and not to stay committed. Case closed.

Now, for all you people who are confused right now, let me say this. If you have or do not have contracts, it does not change the fact that you offer a specific service. Now if your service is substandard (it sucks); I don't care whether you have contacts or not, you need to make it better.

Contacts are not an ethical issue.

To be successful at the martial arts business, you need them.

They have nothing to do with what you teach or how well you teach it.

You cannot offer a professional service if you have to chase your students down for $$$

By the way, if you are trying to collect money, with our without contracts, by yourself....then you need to WAKE UP! Yes....I know. Some school is going to post and yell at me and say that they do it by themselves. Yadda Yadda Yadda. Yes, you can do it by yourself, but WHY BOTHER!?! There are professional companies that do it for you and take only a little bit commission. Separate yourself from your students when it comes to finances. Be thier instructor. Let the tuition company handle problems with payments and cancellations. Just do what you do best (I hope) TEACH!

I'll step off my little soap box now,...thank you.

I use Members Solutions for a billing company. I've used them for over 11 years and I think they are the best. I do not work for them. You can contact Joe Galea and let them know that I sent you. They are nice people and very professional.

[Ray Pina]

I've trained pretty much my whole life (minus some real good times in my teens) and NEVER had a contract with my teacher.

I trained with who I trained with because I knew they were good. Everytime I walked out their door I had something I didn't come in with -- I left better than I came. That's what kept me coming back.

It should be a two way street. What about the students? Shouldn't they have a contract with their sifu as well?

After three years what do I get?

Will I be able to swing an aluminum sword and kwon do real well? Be able to hold horse stance for 20 minutes? Do line drills with my eyes closed? Or will I actually be able to defend myself? ..... and by who's standard? That's the big one. Because teachers blow a lot of smoke up paying customer's a$$es.

If I study at a kwoon for 3 years but get my a$$ handed to me by a BJJ student of 8 months do I get my money back?

Did the real master's who taught the kwoon owners demand contracts? Did they learn under contract from their master's in China?

I don't want to demean this thread, but honestly, we're talking about the commercialization of a beautiful thing that money can't buy.

On one hand it's kind of funny: There's schools raking in tons of cash here on Long Island alone .... there are thousands of students on this island .... I haven't met a single fighter from a kwoon out here. All the fighters seem to come from garage-type formats.

On the other hand it's kind of sad: Where's the next generation of some of these tough masters? There's a few schools out here -- in strip malls -- that tote the name and lineage of Master Chan Tai San, but I can't find a student willing to compare with me and I'd really like to see the stuff. The schools are nice, make money hand over fist, but they aren't producing any warriors.

Seems like a heavy price to pay .... even for $25K a month.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

To answer the last post: As I mentioned before, contracts are a two way street. The contract is for the benefit of both the student and the instructor.


I don't want to demean this thread, but honestly, we're talking about the commercialization of a beautiful thing that money can't buy.
As far as traditional martial arts goes, of course you paid for it! Since when does a student learn from a teacher an not compensate him/her? Simple cosmic laws of reciprocation. Who wouldn't give to someone who gave? Back in China, if you were accepted by a teacher, you might give that teacher a certain amount of your land holdings or businesses.

To anyone who learns martial arts and doesn't pay their instructor. Shame on you. Even if he/she says don't pay them. Contribute something to your teachers life/lifestyle.

And you did have a contract with your teacher in the old days as well. The contract was a verbal one. Sometimes, even written. That you will train and support your Sifu and he will train you and guide you. There was no real estate or insurance liability at the time, so things might have been less complex, but the concept was there.

As far as producing 'warriors' I think you may have more luck if you refer to another thread. This thread is relating to the Business of running a Chinese Martial Arts school. And yes, some schools do seem to make quite a bit of money in comparisson to other schools. That is kind of why we are all contributing to this thread.

[Ray Pina]

I agree a martial arts instructor should be paid, and paid well ... but paid for what?

The final product should be a skilled student. For all the paying customers out there, you don't run into this skilled student too often. And by skilled, I mean someone who can apply what they have learned realisticly.

Sir, I envy the fact that you can make a VERY good living instructing. It must be a great life. At the same time I'd like to remind everyone about that little thing inside, that idealized martial artist, that drew us all into this thing in the first place. Your master was that. My master is that. I'm building myself and carrying myself everyday to become that.... and I've been led this way by good instructors.

So yes, make a fortune. Money is a good thing and who doesn't want more. But above your personal gain I say you have a responsibility to mold these young men and women into martial artists ..... that's what they are coming to you for.

My argument is, that if you do that, you may lose many students, but you won't need a contract because the people under your kwoons roof are real students of martial arts. And at the same time you'd have a student to shoot me a PM to take good care of me, to come shut my mouth and show me some Lama Pai kung fu.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Ray,

You assume that everyone who trains in Kung-Fu want to be like you. I am glad that you are focused on becoming the martial artist you want to become. But the majority of the population does not want to become a serious fighter. They enjoy training, they love Kung-Fu. But they are not excited about black eyes and busted lips. I used to run my classes like that years ago. People find out very quickly that they are not that good at fighting and most people don't want to put in the hard work to get better. Some do...most won't.

And the 'final product' as you put it, should be whatever the individual student wants to get from their 'art'. Schools who help people to reach their goals, never seem to have a shortage of students.

Seek your own path. Just make sure your path doesn't run over anyone else's.

[Anthony]

"Contacts are required to be a successful business. "-Lama Sifu

I agree.

"if you don't use contacts, you are allowing your students to quit when they want and not to stay committed. Case closed."-Lama Sifu

This comment raises a question for me:

Who are you (or any instructor) to tell someone else when they can quit or for how long they should be committed? I'm an adult (so are many MA students). Why shouldn't I be able to stop training when "I" decide that I want to? (After all, nobody NEEDS kung-fu. You do it for fun and you would live just fine without it).

Are martial arts instructors really qualified to go around telling people what's good for them in this way? (hell no). Most of them are one step away from working at McDonald's. You have doctors and lawyers (or other professionals) as students I'm sure. Don't you think that they're smart enough to decide on their own if and when to stop training? Do instructors have to play parent with them? With people who are older (than the instructor) and who have greater success in the real world?

I don't know how long most contracts are for but to me up to a year is fine. Anything over is not good for the consumer. People's lives change (marriage, carreer, children, moving out of state, etc.). If I can study MA now, who says that I'll have the time 2 years from now? Or, that I'll even like it anymore (gasp!).

As a benefit to the buisiness contracts are great. For students, they are simply not very beneficial.

I'm talking strictly of martial arts schools. Comparing martial arts training to buying cars, houses, or whatever else is pointless. They are too different. Different reasons and different benefits.

[TenTigers]

As far as running a good successful school, both financially and turning out good students-these are all of our goals. You can have a hardcore fighting school, but I don't know of any that are full-time,usupported by another job, and making a go of it. If you do-please tell us.
When you teach only an elite clientele, you deprive everyone else who is not hardcore of learning and benefitting from Martial Arts study. Joe Average may not be the next Bruce Lee, or the next Ray Pina, but he can still be the best darned Joe Average he can, better than he was when he walked in, right? You can still have your hardcore inner circle, train them privately, on a different day, have the school of hard knocks available for others who can make the grade, but if you want to eat on a regular basis, and did not hold that winning lotto ticket, you'd better have Joe Average and his pals, and their wives, and their sons and daughters, training all the other days as well.
Ok, back to the topic. Sifu Parella, I am still playing with this idea of the rotating curriculum. I spoke with someone who does TKD, and she says they do something similar. They all do the same workout,self-defense,one-steps, drills, combos, etc and they all test together. The only thing that is different within each rank is actually the forms. One form per rank. They all practice the forms together in class as well, each level doing that particular form-which is easy because most TKD forms are about 30 moves. Not sure how I would do that with sets like Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen and Fu Hok Seurng Ying Kuen.
You also said, that forms are taufgt after the first three(?) levels? Ok, I can possibly swing that-if I made the real basic sets part of the general workout as opposed to a rank requirement. I also realise that I can teach self defense within the class, as drills? Possibly this would trim away from each individual level.
If I am getting this, lemmie know. But.......
here's a problem I have; one-We do demos, Lion Dancing, and tournaments.
I know you hate Lion Dancing, you can make a demo team, and tournaments aren't really important, but we DO do Lion Dancing and always need guys at the last minute to grab for demos of forms, AND we enjoy tournaments.
Can I have my cake and eat it too? (that IS the whole idea behind the cake thing, isn't it?)
TT
ok, I just thought of another glitch-there are alot of different skills that I want to develop in my students-strength, reaction,sensitivity,sparring, etc, if I make all this part of the class, and not separate requirements per "belt", then how do I manage my classes?

[CoonAss]

Ray and Sifu Parella,


i can see both points and (to me) both are extremely valid. i think it depends on what the instructors focus is (be it personal or private). granted, there are alot of McDojo's and McKwoons around. down here in Louisiana and Mississipp - it aint much different.

here there are a mix of contracts and non-contract schools. some good - some not-so good. i do believe that contracts will turn-away a fair amount of people (who i believe are those that may not be serious martial artists, but want to try it).

for those who make teaching their livelihood, i believe it is in their best interests to have contracts (agreements), for those like Ray or Myself (because of my work schedule) contracts may not be a good idea. this is how i see it -

Fighters = want to learn no matter what the terms,

Practitioners = do it because they receive some personal pleasure and feeling of accomplishment for their efforts (no matter how high the level of output).

i am in the middle of both of you, in my thinking. i want to produce fighters, who are skilled and can hold there own (at a minimum) - thats how i train. however, i do not want to shun anyone who wants to learn, i would like to spread our kung fu to everyone who want to learn it. my time will dictate what i do.

i do have an idea for an alternative method for both (although there may be varying instances and circumstances which will necessitate adjustment). have a 3-6 month introductory (no-ties) period, this way the newbie can decide for themselves - then if after that period they decide its up to them, offer them a one, two or whatever year contract (that way it is their decision AND they will be commited to you and themselves for their decision).

additionally, if you have a Bai See or inner circle of students (for fighting or whatever reasons), you'll already have a pool of commited students to look at, as each will have proven (to some degree) that they are committed. for those students, you can charge or not - however you see fit.


Steve

[Ray Pina]

The thing I don't understand is why can't you turn Joe Average into Joe Better than Most?

Of course not everyone wants to go out there and be a fighter .... but shouldn't you be training everyone the same way, providing them with the tools to be that if they so choose.

If you join the army, you better learn how to march and shoot straight. That is minimum requirement. Maybe you want to go on and be an explosives expert, or fly helicopters, but there is the basic core skills you must have.

When a student enters the kwoon seaking instruction, I believe, inside, they are looking to become someone who can defend themself. I think they want to become someone who can use their body as a weapon if need be.

I think it's very often that the school environment and culture slowly brainwashes them to an extent into thinking form is the way to go ..... which is convenient. Because you could not fight worth a **** but keep teaching form after form after form and then throw in a little line drill and light chi sau and these people trust you, the master, but what do they have at the end of the day? What does it do to your individual style and the name of Kung Fu in general?

I teach my landlord's son and a friend of his. A neighbor just asked me to teach his little daughter, 10 years old. I started her on Mon. First class: THIS IS YOUR SHIELD ..... THIS IS HOW YOU REINFORCE IT .... I put on boxing gloves and start giving her as much power as she can take, actually a little bit more than she can take so she can train to hold the shape but move her body.

I will not teach her any of the forms I have learned (and mostly forgotten) over the years. But in 2 years she'll be tough. I've been training my landlords son for 3 years, he's 16 .... I'd be comfortable matching him up with most men, even those that are trained. Even better, he'd be comfortable doing it.

I just don't understand why you don't try to transform every student and train them all right from the start. It's a journey but you're both their anyway, might as well do it right. Newbies will be newbies and advanced will be advanced, but everyone should be learning the same thing .... MARTIAL art.

[brothernumber9]

many and perhaps even most of such contracts have 30 or 60 day release clauses in them. In otherwords under the event of life changes, the student can submit a request to be released and after the 30 or sixty day prcessing period, it's done.

People are simply afraid of getting 'locked' into a bad deal like some health clubs had done in the past, to which even if they did not attend, they had to pay and for the full term of the contract.

As long as clubs/kwoons communicate that they are not trying to trap people and thier money, have release clauses, then I beleive most people will accept them. One place I know of even honors private agreements between the school and the student. What I mean by that is, say for instance the student gets injured training or falls ill or has to work for a few months on location somewhere. As long as the situation is explained and preferably at the time it occurs, then the school takes note of it, and at the end of the contract term date, the school allows the student to continue training on an 'honor' type system for the time that they lost as a result of that situation, in effect giving them the time they paid for.

[TenTigers]

Good point, Ray. I like the shield and structure idea. We also do something similar-in Hung-Ga it is Iron Door Jam, Golden Scissors Hands, and Double Bow Tiger Subduing-different "shields"-vertical, crossed,and Horizontal, all basically "crashing" type moves, and we teach this first. The students love it, and to use an overused term, find it "empowering" (ugh). I think it also sets the pace for what is to come. If the student learns the difference between impact and "getting Hit" which is not the same as "Getting hurt" they have taken a big step towards becomming a fighter.
I am all for Joe Average becoming better than most. My question to you is, what about those others. You know the ones I mean. Joe Less than Average? Those kids that cringe when you nudge them. (not talking about those with possible physical or sexual trauma-that's a whole other ball of wax, possibly to be addressed at a later time) Or the ones that are more on the meek and mild side, yet still want to and deserve to learn Martial Arts.
Of course we can all smile and say, "Well, that's what the McKwoons are for!"
But the biggest problem with those is that they give the students a false sense of security. From what I have seen, and it is quite alot, the ones with the loudest voices, the biggest false sense of security, come from the guys wearing the McKwoon jackets, patches, and Danny LaRusso Headbands.
I think we can all agree that none of us want that. So, you still need to provide for these guys, and make them into Joe Better than Average, although they still might not ever become "Mean Joe Average" the King of the Cage.
We are definately talking about two different topics on this forum-
Both which are neccesary to have a successful school without compromising your integrity. Perhaps we should divide this into two separate areas-one-teaching skills-which will develop EVERYONE into good Martial Artists, and Buisiness Practices. They are definately tied together, but we can't discuss both simultaneously.

Deep Breath- ok....Sifu Parrella,
What is the average price for an introductory program, how long does it last, and how much -on average, is a Black Belt Program?
How do you install this into your present class without the bottom dropping out? Of course, if you started your school like this there would be no problem, but to suddenly tell your senior students that they will have to "upgrade" to get what they've been getting all along is suicide. Like I said, I am starting to understand the rotating curriculum-I think. Upgrading to BBC-without it looking like an "Upsell" or Bait and Switch, but being a natural progression in their training, and something they WANT to DO.
As far as the naysayers-If you are giving the student the BEST POSSIBLE product you can. If you are giving ALL the BENEFITS, then even though you are charging more, you are not selling out. You are charging and giving them a Mecedes and Filet Mignon, not ripping them off and giving them a Rambler and a BigMac. :eek:

[Ray Pina]

have a 3-6 month introductory (no-ties) period, this way the newbie can decide for themselves - then if after that period they decide its up to them, offer them a one, two or whatever year contract (that way it is their decision AND they will be commited to you and themselves for their decision).

That sounds reasonable.

........

Ten Tigers, personally, I think it is Joe Less Than Average that will need a little bit more of your time. So you set the other guys up first so they can start knocking on each other's shield a bit, then train with Less Than personally. Keep explaining and demonstrating how a shield is safer than swiping ala wax on, wax off. He can see that, he can feel that.

Demonstrate how when the other guy is too powerful, yes, it sucks, but still not a reason to panic. As soon as you feel the shield wanting to collapse, let the force move you the approproate distance to maintain the shield.

At the same time I introduce them to Bear or shoulder power, so they can start punching with power right away. Who cares if its a big, telegraphed, from the floor upper cut. Get them used to punching and absorbing some blows in a fun way that is not intimidating. Even Joe Retarted can get that down in 3 weeks tops.

My point is, I know doing warm up stretches for 20 minutes, stances for 20 minutes, form for 20 minutes kills an hour. But after three weeks the person might be a little more flexible, have worse knees then when they came, and maybe learned the salutation bow and opening moves of the form.

Maybe in a year they learned a form and a half. At the same time Joe Retarted can stop all linear and rounded attacks to a comfortable degree. One is on their way to being comfortable using their skill, the other has a set of skills that are impressive, but somewhat gymnastic in nature .... this is also usually accompanied with a fascination for all things Shaolin and a heavy reliance on past accomplishments of masters who may or may not have been skilled.

Just, for me, if you are teaching you should be good right? You would expect a chess master to play any average joe off the street, right? .... and beat them, right? Unless the other guy happened to be ranked like 1700 or something as well.

And if you learned from him, you'd expect to be able to play chess, right? Be able to go to a party and beat most of the people there who want to play, right?

So if these students are turning to a sifu/master for martial arts .... how that teacher defines martial arts is what they'll get.

Maybe we have a hole generation of teachers who are the direct byproduct of this exact thing I'm trying to highlight. For them to actually compare their skills against another is rediculous, absord. It will never happen. They'd rather hide themselves behind their insurance guarded walls and preach their hypocricy ... but then we can't cry boo hoo when other systems look down on Kung Fu as a laughing stock.

Excuse me for all these words and space. Just that I am passionate about this subject and most of what I said should be a given, the starting point. And please, don't for a second think I don't realise the real value in martial arts: the focus, the self discipline .... the learning that tomorrow is built on today's foundation ... courage, etc.

McDojo's can teach these things, but a man can't really be free until he is completely free to express himself ... and every time a McDojo black belt bites his tongue in the school yard, a "Master" refuses the opportunity to challenge himself by comparing .... somewhere their fancy, contractual training has failed them, and a piece of them dies.

[TenTigers]

ok Ray, I'm listening. I like what you're saying, too. Is this the method David Chan uses? What are typical classes like? It sounds like thatis a decent formula. But...also, how many students does he have, does he do this full-time, or does he have a day-job? How does this model stand up to developing a larger school? Can it be done across the board? If so, you might have struck some gold. If not, you might still hold some keys to ways of developing the best of both worlds.
I am constantly working with my curriculum, my teaching methods. Students who train here and take a few months off, have told me that they come back to a different school each time. My school is a work in progress, a living entity. If I can find a better way to get my guys from point A to Point B, then I would be a fool not to do it.
At the same time that i am changing and rearranging my teaching methods, I am also trying to find the best way to accomplish this and earn a good living.
So far, this forum seems to be bringing alot of ideas to the table. Good stuff.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Hey..you guys are off on a totally different tangent. This thread is supposed to be for MA school owners, to compare business systems, concepts, curriculum, strategies etc. I think the discussion of what you decide to teach is a good one, but why not create a new thread?

Many CMA teachers have an idea in their mind of what they want their students to become. The challenge is, not every student wants to become what the teacher wants. What I mean is; Not everyone wishes to learn to become the ulitmate fighter. In fact, there are a lot of people who like to learn martial arts, but have no interest in getting hurt or fighting at all. That is a reality. If you are a teacher who only wants to train people to fight, you will only gather a small percent of the MA poplulation.

Here is an example. I teach hundreds of new students each year. Some stay, some leave. Out of the hundreds, dozens will go on to be good students. A few of those will have the ability to really defend themselves. The challenge is; not everyone want to put the time and effort into becoming a 'complete' martial artist.

Is that a bad thing? Hmm. Let's see. I like the teaching people KF. I like the fact that every once in awhile, I find a really capable student. The more people I meet, the more capable students I seem to develop. Is everyone going to be a MA expert? Hell no. Some people don't have it and will never have it them. I'm okay with that. My training makes people feel better about themselves, they get in better shape and they are doing what they love. Hey, I wouldn't have so many students if everyone thought the training sucked. What is a good barometer for having a successful school. Hey, making a lot of $$ is great. Having a lot of students is great too. Going to sleep at night, proud of the job you did that day at work (class) and seeing how excited and pleased with your training your students are, that's a pretty good measure.

And someone mentioned before about agreements and contracts, length of time, etc. Listen up. Students have the choice to enroll in a school or not. If they don't like the terms of the membership, they shouldn't sign up. Every school uses a different method. 6 months, 1 years, 3 years, whatever. If a school is scamming people are pressuring them into enrolling for a long time, then they are unethical.

Don't get mad at the schools for having memberships that are 24/36 months long. If you don't like that, don't have long agreements. It's up to you. My comment about 'enabling your students to quit' comes from this: Your students have set a goal (or assume they have) and made a committment. Just like I have to make a committement to a landlord, etc. As adults, we have to learn the importance of keeping our promises. If I promise a certain level of committment to a student, I have a written agreement (contract) that guarantees that I will provide that service to that student for a period of time. It's a two way street.

Someone said that in the 'old days' teachers did not have contracts to keep students. Well, that is not true. There were two types of standard contracts. They went like this: I promise to be your teacher, you promise to be my student. Student for a day, student for life. The Chinese culture is a bit different then the Americans. They made a promise and kept it. Their contract is part of their culture. They would discrace themselves by breaking their word. We certainly don't live by that code here. And two: Students were often required to train with a teacher for a period of time. A teacher might say: I will teach you, but you must train with me for at least two years, that is your committment to me.

The fact is, it's a matter of preference. We are not going to all agree on everthing, what is why we are here. To share opinions and points of view. If you like agreements, fine. If not, fine too. The questions in this forum are directed towards school owners. If you want to contribute and you're not a school owner, state your opinion. I like to read posts from everyone. But let's not lose the focus of what this thread is about.

I have enjoyed the diversity of these posts so far.

[TenTigers]

Hey, I'm quoting myself!
Deep Breath- ok....Sifu Parrella,
What is the average price for an introductory program, how long does it last, and how much -on average, is a Black Belt Program?
How do you install this into your present class without the bottom dropping out? Of course, if you started your school like this there would be no problem, but to suddenly tell your senior students that they will have to "upgrade" to get what they've been getting all along is suicide. Like I said, I am starting to understand the rotating curriculum-I think. Upgrading to BBC-without it looking like an "Upsell" or Bait and Switch, but being a natural progression in their training, and something they WANT to DO.
As far as the naysayers-If you are giving the student the BEST POSSIBLE product you can. If you are giving ALL the BENEFITS, then even though you are charging more, you are not selling out. You are charging and giving them a Mecedes and Filet Mignon, not ripping them off and giving them a Rambler and a BigMac.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Our Basic Program, where all new students start is approx. $727. If you pay for it in full, the program is discounted to $599.

Black Belt Programs, depending on which one, are several thousand dollars. Neither of the Black Belt level training programs we offer guarantee a black belt. Students train for a period of time in Black Belt Classes.

It is obvious from your posts though, that you are doing stuff WAY different than me. If you are satisfied with your current result, continue on your course. If you desire a different result, you will have to change your methods.

Just a few words: "People will not pay more for the same thing." We don't use any 'bait and switch' or any high pressure sales tactics. My students enroll in different levels of training because they are informed of the curriculum, and they see other students who are a product of that curriculum. They wouldn't enroll if I were 'tricking' them or giving them a bunch of BS. Teach good classes and structure you curriculum in such a way that people build skills and results. You can be a good teacher, but structure your classes in a 'bad' way. It's quite common.

[TenTigers]

"Our Basic Program, where all new students start is approx. $727. If you pay for it in full, the program is discounted to $599."

-how long is the basic program, how many times per week are they allowed to attend?

"Black Belt Programs, depending on which one, are several thousand dollars. Neither of the Black Belt level training programs we offer guarantee a black belt. Students train for a period of time in Black Belt Classes."

you have different types of Black Belt Programs? Could you elaborate? How are they paid off? What do they "get" by enrolling? What if they choose not to? Or is that not an option?

I KNOW this system works, as pretty much anyone and everyone who is successfull in teaching Martial Arts is doing this. I just need to find out how I can make this work in my enviornment, and implement it without any flak from the present students.
Thanks for all your advice/
TT

[Akhilleus]

Neat thread…I myself haven’t gotten rich (yet) teaching martial arts, but I have worked at several different schools of varying financial success, so I feel like I do have a good idea of what works and what doesn’t. I’m talking about what goes on on the actual training floor, as I don’t know as much about contracts and other stuff that goes on behind the scenes. I’ve worked with people from like ages 3-50 something, and people with disabilities such as blindness.

Anyway, I think you have to consider why people want to learn the martial arts and then help them gain the benefits that they seek. For kids, they want to have fun and their parents want them to learn discipline, focus, concentration, confidence etc. So it is important that the classes and curriculum be dynamic and fun.

Adult classes should be enjoyable too, but of course you can’t try to teach kids the same way as adults, and vise versa. Adults may be looking for fitness, weight loss, confidence, socializing, self-defense etc. I also recently read that a growing number of parents are signing their kids up for martial arts b/c they are concerned with the US’ growing obesity problem. So fitness is important in kids’ classes too.

Anyway I’ve got a whole bunch of fun class ideas that I can send to anyone that is interested, but do yourself a favor and go right to the source. Get some videos by Tom Callos, Melody Schuman, and/or Dave Kovar. These people are freakin’ geniuses when it comes to making people excited about karate/martial arts classes. And when those people are so excited, how can they leave?

[yutyeesam]

You can be a good teacher, but structure your classes in a 'bad' way. It's quite common.

I am just *now* learning this! I never really realised the power of this. I was foolishly under the impression that good content will sell itself! But my Sifu is teaching me about the psychology of structuring class, and it is totally shaking my world. For example- I used to end all my classes with at least 15 or more minutes of form practice. I never realized how big of a mistake that was!!

-123

[Reggie1]

For example- I used to end all my classes with at least 15 or more minutes of form practice. I never realized how big of a mistake that was!!
Can you elaborate on that some? I'd like to hear about it.

[TenTigers]

Ok, this is my view on this-
A good analogy would be the way a good DJ works the room, if you notice towards the end of the night, the music is slower,lowering the energy level,moving people out the door. If you make your classes tedious and boring, you are doing the same thing.
Just as in the film industry,"You are only as good as your last film"
Your school is only as good as its last class. You need to make your classes high energy, and always end upbeat. you want them at the nd of class worked to the bone, but PUMPED. You want them walking out of that class sweating and energized, saying, "That was awesome! I feel GREAT!" not looking at the clock waiting for it to end, or students drifting out one by one, "Um, Sifu...I gotta go"
You have to have your warm-ups, stretching all maintaining an enthusiasm, so you don't have them do jumping jacks, pushups, then sit down on the floor and relax. If you do that, trying to get them on their feet and pumped is an uphill battle. Instead, do a light warm-up,we warm up the upper body with hand strikes, then do a few upper body stretches, then more drills, then waistwork, then light kicking to warm up the legs, then floor stretches, then back up.etc
We do "Power Lines" to energize the class as well-these are kicks on the bags across the floor-lots of movement lots of energy. You can do this with hand techniques as well, or make up pad drills, whatever.
Learn to disguise repetition. If you want your guys to do 100 reverse punches, do ten, then ten high/low punches, then ten frontkick/reverse punch combos, then ten lead hand strike/reverse punch combos, etc keep them moving.
You can break up your class into a pie graph to segment each thing you want to work on, making sure everything is hit. You don't need to do sam-sing for an hour, you can do it for several minutes, because the students come in 2-3 times a week.
That is my take on it. Sifu Parrella might mean something else entirely, so let's hear from you guys.
"The rising tide lifts all boats"

[Vasquez]

"Our Basic Program, where all new students start is approx. $727. If you pay for it in full, the program is discounted to $599."

-how long is the basic program, how many times per week are they allowed to attend?

"Black Belt Programs, depending on which one, are several thousand dollars. Neither of the Black Belt level training programs we offer guarantee a black belt. Students train for a period of time in Black Belt Classes."

you have different types of Black Belt Programs? Could you elaborate? How are they paid off? What do they "get" by enrolling? What if they choose not to? Or is that not an option?

I KNOW this system works, as pretty much anyone and everyone who is successfull in teaching Martial Arts is doing this. I just need to find out how I can make this work in my enviornment, and implement it without any flak from the present students.
Thanks for all your advice/
TT

I pay my sifu $5,000 a year because I'm the only student left. Other students have left for MMA which I find to be a dishonerable thing to do.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Hmmm, what do you thinks that tells you?

Props for supporting your teacher. Try supporting him some more by taking his to some kind of convention for martial arts business. Or get him a book about teaching students so they don't quit.

[Vasquez]

Hmmm, what do you thinks that tells you?

Props for supporting your teacher. Try supporting him some more by taking his to some kind of convention for martial arts business. Or get him a book about teaching students so they don't quit.


He's a traditional sifu

[TenTigers]

He should get the "Humanitarian of the Year" award for teaching the handicapped.

[tjmitch]

How much do you guys pay per square foot for your space? LI must be expensive.... Also, how many students do you think a school needs to be viable? How long was it before your fist school was profitable?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Humanitarian award! HA! That was funny Rick!

$24-$30 per square foot is pretty average in LI. A bit more in Queens and higher still as you get closer to manhattan.

I don't think you need more than 125 students to have the school owner earn $120,000 plus, per year. If you have more students, obviously, you can earn more. Most schools are charging less than they should (I take that back - most schools are charging EXACTLY what their lessons are worth!) but, with a few improvements, most schools could be charging more, AND change HOW they collect tuition/payments etc.

I opened my first school in 1991. I did earn a salary of about $400+ per week within the first month of business. By the end of the second year, maybe about $500. By the end of 1994, I was earning over $100,000 per year. Fortunately, I had several mentors in the martial arts industry that helped me understand a lot of the 'do's and don't's' of the biz. They were a great help.


And for those of you who are ingnorant to the 'biz', or think you are selling out because you can actually earn an income teaching good CMA, think again. Martial arts business is not just about professional presentations and sales and marketing. It's class scheduling, the look of your school, merchandise, programing (what you offer) curriculum (what you teach) identifying the needs and wants of your demographic, and learning how to act like a professional. It's customer service, being a boss not a buddy, doing bookkeeping and learning how to be a learder to your staff and students, etc.

I think a new school, with today's technology, should be able to turn a profit within 90 days. That means, within 45-75 days, a school should be able to recoup the initial investment for opening it up and begin to earn profit. I have opened schools with as little as $7K (my first school) and with as much as $68,000 (same school, five years later, new location). It all depends on how competent the owner is.

[tjmitch]

With 125 or so students, what would you say the break down is as far as kids and soccer moms vs. more hard core type students? Is it safe to say that teaching kids is where the bulk of the income comes from?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I think we run about half kids half adults, for the most part.

I would say that more money is made from adults.

And I think of the adults, about 10-20% are hard core, the other 70% are very serious about training and the other 10% are just finding out about the martial arts and were not athletic.

I hope this helps?

[yutyeesam]

Sifu Parella-
Would you recommend for a teacher who is just starting out to teach in a community center and then move to a storefront location once a following was developed, or would you recommend biting the bullet and taking a loan and getting the storefront location right off the bat?

My apologies if you've addressed this before.

Thanks,
123

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Teaching at a rec center is a low-risk way to start. Some school owners build a following and then take the leap...

I think going the full-blown route is the best. However, if you don't have at least a couple of months of training; Sales, Business systems etc., then you shouldn't invest a bunch of money that you are sure to lose.

This is the major problem here: "I am a martial artist. I love what I do, and I teach a few guys in my garage. I am good at what I do. I think I will take my hobby to the next level and do it as a business. Granted, I don't know anything about the MA business, but I'm a good teacher and people will come to me."

This is a sad delusion, isn't it? The instructor realizes pretty fast that he/she has no idea what they are doing. Some, seek out the help of others who know more. Some still keep plugging away, and make mistakes, learn from them and stay 'afloat'. Others seem to dismiss the fact that they know nothing about business and blame their failure of the 'weak' or 'non-serious' people who fail to sign up. The moto of the failed instructor: "I am a traditional instructor and most people aren't serious about training." Right.....that's why they are a failure at business.

And by the way, I think you can make $$ teaching many different ways. I know those are who tournament schools, I know forms schools, and I know pure fighting schools. I have successful friends or colleges in all these different areas. It can be done. But they all have certain business systems in common to make their schools successful. No hocus pocus, no smoke and mirrors, just good business practices.

I hope this helps again.

Feel free to PM if you want.

[tjmitch]

Thank you for your responses. Are there any books you would suggest specfic to the MA business/ running a school?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Find a mentor! It might not always be easy, but networking is one of the best things you can do! Also, signing up for MAIA, NAMPA and MATA are good resources as well. There are a few consulting companies that are offering services to the public as well. I use Member Solutions as a tuition management company, I think they are the best. They have some consulting services available as well. Bottom line, find someone who is doing what you want to do and ask them if they can teach you. Sound familiar?

Best of luck!

[Royal Dragon]

I'm actually hoping to go this route myself. I have a freind who is a succsessful school owner in Sandiego who is moving back to the Chicago area. I'm hoping to kind of learn the buisness from him.

I already know how to run succsessful Kid's clubs in elementary schools and park dists, but the storefront is going to be where my eventual career is, and I'm hopeing to bennifit from his experiance.

[Wilson]

My instructor has been very successful and has told me he would do everything he could to help me (as a mentor) if I wanted to open my own school. I have been playing with the idea for some time now and have been trying to gather materials and resources to build my own knowlege before seriously going after this dream.

Does anyone have any recommendations on books, seminars, web resources, etc to look into. What have you found to be most helpful? For example, I just came across the Small Dojo Big Profits website. It, like some others I've seen, promises a lot but also costs a good bit ($77 for a PDF download). That's why I'm looking for recommendations before buying things that may not be worth the money. Is there anything worthwhile out there?

Thanks and good luck to all.

[Knifefighter]

Also, signing up for MAIA,NAMPA and MATA are good resources as well

What are the differences between these organizations (strengths, weaknesses, costs, focus, etc?)

[Lama Pai Sifu]

NAPMA and MAIA are both very similiar. They are a box of info that comes to your school each month. They can teach school owners classroom drills, event coordination, sales technques, etc. They are good for the average school owner who needs help. MATA is a website (martial arts teachers association) and is a good recourse for all kids of MA business related stuff.

I think NAPMA and MAIA are about $89 per month or so, I think the MATA membership is $24.95 per month. They are all worth it if you actually try to use the info. If you don't, they are about as usefull as that closehanger in your house...oh excuse me..I mean the treadmill.

Best of luck!

[Knifefighter]

Our Basic Program, where all new students start is approx. $727. If you pay for it in full, the program is discounted to $599.

Is that for one year? If so, how many days per week?

What do you find are some of your more effective methods for bringing new students into your school?

[TenTigers]

actually, we have a versa-climber, and you would be amazed how much it holds-jackets, coats,scarves, those things are GREAT! :D
I get the NAPMA stuff and the eagle express from efc-which is funny because I haven't belonged to EFC in ages.
Member soulutions is so far the best billing service and "technical support" organization thus far, in my opinion.
I guess it's alot like choosing a good school. You need to check them out and find the one that fits your personality.

[Vasquez]

Find a mentor! It might not always be easy, but networking is one of the best things you can do! Also, signing up for MAIA, NAMPA and MATA are good resources as well. There are a few consulting companies that are offering services to the public as well. I use Member Solutions as a tuition management company, I think they are the best. They have some consulting services available as well. Bottom line, find someone who is doing what you want to do and ask them if they can teach you. Sound familiar?

Best of luck!


It should never be about business or comercialised. Remeber Karate Kid how the comercialised school lost touch with the traditions of karate.

[TenTigers]

There is a WORLD of difference between being "Commercial" and being PROFFESSIONAL. Having specific systems in order is proffessional. Having a clean well-kept school, well-trained staff,good phone technique, introductory classes, programs, teaching methods, well thought out curriculum are all signs of quality.
Nowhere do you see signs of compromising or watering down the art, in fact, in doing it in this manner, you can ASSURE that your art is being passed down correctly, leaving nothing out, and making sure that the student is learning and developing properly.
Teaching will-nilly,flying by the seat of your pants is the absolute worst way to present something with the depth required such as CMA. Imagine if the school systems, colleges, medical schools taught in this manner.
Now Does this make sense to you?
And don't you think that after investing all your time,effort, energy into developing your students, that you deserve to get paid for this as well? Or would you feel much better if you lived a good, comfortable life, while your Sifu lived in squalor?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Vasquez, don't be such a tool. Making your martial arts more appealing to the public, or having a nice school or store front doesn't have squat to do with your actual martial arts. If you are a jerk teaching martial arts, you are a jerk no matter how much money you make doing it.

Kinda works the same way on these forums....

[Vasquez]

There is a WORLD of difference between being "Commercial" and being PROFFESSIONAL. Having specific systems in order is proffessional. Having a clean well-kept school, well-trained staff,good phone technique, introductory classes, programs, teaching methods, well thought out curriculum are all signs of quality.
Nowhere do you see signs of compromising or watering down the art, in fact, in doing it in this manner, you can ASSURE that your art is being passed down correctly, leaving nothing out, and making sure that the student is learning and developing properly.
Teaching will-nilly,flying by the seat of your pants is the absolute worst way to present something with the depth required such as CMA. Imagine if the school systems, colleges, medical schools taught in this manner.
Now Does this make sense to you?
And don't you think that after investing all your time,effort, energy into developing your students, that you deserve to get paid for this as well? Or would you feel much better if you lived a good, comfortable life, while your Sifu lived in squalor?

It's nver been commerical in the past so why should it be commercial now. bottom line dedication of students aren't there to train for 30 to 40 years from when they're kids.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Vasquez, and I can't beleive I'm actually asking you a question, what do you consider 'commercial'?

[lkfmdc]

DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS

This has been a public service message from LKFMDC

and remember, a mind is a terrible thing

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Hey Dave, do you know how many people accidently die each year from feeding trolls!??!

Seriously, let's get back to business;

If you are a school owner and would like to improve one area of your business, what would it be? Use your imagination...

[Vasquez]

ha! that statement belies your TOTAL lack of knowledge of martial arts history in China and Japan - don't be so naiive - martial arts and economics have been linked together for as long as society has been a functional descriptor - and commercial schools have abounded in China for a loong time...

I will forget that you ahve said that. My sifu would be very hurt by your disrespect of TCMA history.

[yutyeesam]

If you are a school owner and would like to improve one area of your business, what would it be? Use your imagination...

I would have to say marketing, first. You need to get people in the door, initially, and I'm now realizing the value of having a store front location with a good sign...and a display ad in yellow pages, flyers/brochures, doing demos in public, networking with businesses in related areas (health/sports/fitness) to get your name out there, having an easy to navigate and access website, some folks do direct mailing, some can afford radio/tv ads, perhaps having events at your school open to the community, having the local papers write up pieces on your school, maybe put an ad in the paper itself...stuff like that....I've seen some folks do guerilla marketing stuff like putting their business cards in martial arts books at borders/barnes&noble!

I recently saw an article of a martial arts school that's run by a guy who's prior field was in telemarketing, and so he telemarkets his school, and has success with it. I don't know if I could do that- I despise telemarketers...but whatever works, I s'pose!

I saw another article that talked about target marketing to really affluent people in the community, to teach privately and charge them a bundle...in the mid-morning, when there's usually the most downtime for MA schools. But I would imagine you really have to put your professional best foot forward for that, which is very doable, but it requires training/education.

-123

[sean_stonehart]

I will forget that you ahve said that. My sifu would be very hurt by your disrespect of TCMA history.

Why?? It's not untrue.

[Vasquez]

I would have to say marketing, first. You need to get people in the door, initially, and I'm now realizing the value of having a store front location with a good sign...and a display ad in yellow pages, flyers/brochures, doing demos in public, networking with businesses in related areas (health/sports/fitness) to get your name out there, having an easy to navigate and access website, some folks do direct mailing, some can afford radio/tv ads, perhaps having events at your school open to the community, having the local papers write up pieces on your school, maybe put an ad in the paper itself...stuff like that....I've seen some folks do guerilla marketing stuff like putting their business cards in martial arts books at borders/barnes&noble!

I recently saw an article of a martial arts school that's run by a guy who's prior field was in telemarketing, and so he telemarkets his school, and has success with it. I don't know if I could do that- I despise telemarketers...but whatever works, I s'pose!

I saw another article that talked about target marketing to really affluent people in the community, to teach privately and charge them a bundle...in the mid-morning, when there's usually the most downtime for MA schools. But I would imagine you really have to put your professional best foot forward for that, which is very doable, but it requires training/education.

-123

Good sifus I know have a life time following of 5 to 6 students who join his school over a period of 30 to 40 years. You don't need marketing.

[GreenCloudCLF]

What about the part where the master cannot have family because he cannot afford to support them. Or he has to have a job to survive and cannot spend his whole day teaching and training...

Come on man. Teaching many students is the way to find the ones that will stay for long periods of time. And marketing is the way to do that....'

What's wrong with you?

[yutyeesam]

Good sifus I know have a life time following of 5 to 6 students who join his school over a period of 30 to 40 years. You don't need marketing.

Good marketing tactic, troll! Controversy sells well. Congrats, you suckered us all into looking at you.

[ngokfei]

Marketing: For me I focus on adults as the competiton is too fierce for the kiddy market. Also after raising my kid for the last 4 years I don't think I have the patience any more :p

Also I focus on Police, and Women.

For public relations and recognition I give a Free 4 week program on Self Defense every 3 months. It gives me alot of referrals as well as some mug shots with the local establishment :D

but still I don't have a full time school so it will all change when I have to face down the bills every month :(

[Vasquez]

What about the part where the master cannot have family because he cannot afford to support them. Or he has to have a job to survive and cannot spend his whole day teaching and training...

Come on man. Teaching many students is the way to find the ones that will stay for long periods of time. And marketing is the way to do that....'

What's wrong with you?

LOL you make it sound like a bad thing. in abstanence of the physical you gain richness in spirit.

[GreenCloudCLF]

Doing it your way also ensures that your style gets lost to time....Bye-Bye Troll-Fu

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Hey...let's keep this thread for people who are school owners, people who work in MA schools and those who are planning on opening a school.

Vasquez, you are wasting your time on this thread. Your imput is not required or requested here.

Again, let's pose the same question: "One area of improvement to see in your school..."

[Vasquez]

Hey...let's keep this thread for people who are school owners, people who work in MA schools and those who are planning on opening a school.

Vasquez, you are wasting your time on this thread. Your imput is not required or requested here.

Again, let's pose the same question: "One area of improvement to see in your school..."


LOL most of your schools need to become more traditional

[TenTigers]

ok, looking at my school, I would break irt down in this way:
1) my marjeting definately needs improvement-I will get my VIO orogram in gear, and se up lead boxes-
Do you have any advice as to where to and where NOT to place a lead box?
such as, Hair salons=good Unemployment, and Welfare Center=bad
2) I think my phone presentation is good, but I'm sure it can use improvement. I d realise that the only reason we advertize is to get the phone to ring, and the only reason the phone rings is to set up introductory classes, but, like I said everything can always use tuning up.
3) My walk-in presentation is better than my phone presentation, but considering they took the trouble to come out and find us, they are already interested in signing up, so taking the staep to the intro is pretty much done when they walk in

[TenTigers]

ok, looking at my school, I would break irt down in this way:
1) my marketing definately needs improvement-I will get my VIP Program in gear, and se up lead boxes-
Do you have any advice as to where to and where NOT to place a lead box?
such as, Hair salons=good Unemployment, and Welfare Center=bad
2) I think my phone presentation is good, but I'm sure it can use improvement. I do realise that the only reason we advertize is to get the phone to ring, and the only reason the phone rings is to set up introductory classes, but, like I said everything can always use tuning up.
3) My walk-in presentation is better than my phone presentation, but considering they took the trouble to come out and find us, they are already interested in signing up, so taking the step to the intro is pretty much done when they walk in
That being said-do you ever sign them up without an intro?
4) My intros are pretty kick-ass, they usually sign up then and there, or if they do not have thier checkbook, come back the next day. I know, I know, I should tell them to bring their checkbook or credit card when they come to the intro, but I always feel too much like a salesman,"Okay John, we'll see you on Tuesday for your introductory lesson, and hey John, you're gonna want to bring your checkbook..." definately gots ta be a better way to put it.
5) presentation of the school-I need to keep my school imaculate. There is way too much clutter. This weekend's project.
6) My programs and pricing are definately in need of an overhaul. I like the idea of having an Introductory or Basic program, for rank beginners to get their feet wet, and feel comfortable, a more intense program, and possibly a "premium" package. I really liked your presentation, the breakdown, everything. Very impressive. I almost signed up myself!
7) My curriculum definately needs trimming-too many requirements for a beginner to absorb. I need to space it out in smaller increments. I liked what you said to me on Friday about trying to give them everything by Black Belt because I think they will leave. Backwards thinking.
Other than that, I think I got it covered. :eek: :D

[Buddy]

Do you all use a monthy membership model? I like the rotating curriculum idea. We did a similar thing when I taught full time in Boston. We were set up more like continuing education. Our courses were 7 weeks long and stuctured progressively in that you needed to complete level one to conyinue etc. Ours was adults only with about 325 students when I left. I will do things similar but with some qualitative differences.

[Royal Dragon]

Ours was adults only with about 325 students when I left

Reply]
What is the average lesson payment per month for those students?

[Buddy]

As I said it wasn't by the month but by the course and there were multiple course discounts as well as other types. But let's say a seven week course would run about $125/session. This course model gives them a sense of completion (and a certificate of same) instead of the possible perception of the endless monthy fee.

[Vasquez]

ok, looking at my school, I would break irt down in this way:
1) my marketing definately needs improvement-I will get my VIP Program in gear, and se up lead boxes-
Do you have any advice as to where to and where NOT to place a lead box?
such as, Hair salons=good Unemployment, and Welfare Center=bad
2) I think my phone presentation is good, but I'm sure it can use improvement. I do realise that the only reason we advertize is to get the phone to ring, and the only reason the phone rings is to set up introductory classes, but, like I said everything can always use tuning up.
3) My walk-in presentation is better than my phone presentation, but considering they took the trouble to come out and find us, they are already interested in signing up, so taking the step to the intro is pretty much done when they walk in
That being said-do you ever sign them up without an intro?
4) My intros are pretty kick-ass, they usually sign up then and there, or if they do not have thier checkbook, come back the next day. I know, I know, I should tell them to bring their checkbook or credit card when they come to the intro, but I always feel too much like a salesman,"Okay John, we'll see you on Tuesday for your introductory lesson, and hey John, you're gonna want to bring your checkbook..." definately gots ta be a better way to put it.
5) presentation of the school-I need to keep my school imaculate. There is way too much clutter. This weekend's project.
6) My programs and pricing are definately in need of an overhaul. I like the idea of having an Introductory or Basic program, for rank beginners to get their feet wet, and feel comfortable, a more intense program, and possibly a "premium" package. I really liked your presentation, the breakdown, everything. Very impressive. I almost signed up myself!
7) My curriculum definately needs trimming-too many requirements for a beginner to absorb. I need to space it out in smaller increments. I liked what you said to me on Friday about trying to give them everything by Black Belt because I think they will leave. Backwards thinking.
Other than that, I think I got it covered. :eek: :D

I feel so sad for you. compromising tradition = watering down your style. My sifu would get the students do chores for awhile and over months or longer they will be admitted as students. It is a test of character.

[Buddy]

And yet nobody cares about you. You have this sad pathetic movie version about how this stuff works. If your Sifu made a fortune selling opium, or was involved in organized crime, would you still find being taught for a pittance ok? Slave labor is a character test? This isn't a Jacky Chan movie, son. SHould I teach 300-400 people, make a good living all the while knowing that there might be a dozen or so in that number who want to train like I did? Or should I take a menial labor job and teach just those dozen or so for some fuedal tradition? I add great value to people's lives with my teaching, even if they don't want to be some imaginary conquistador. Now respect your betters and behave boy.

[Shaolinlueb]

i was browsing through some of the pages and skimming the words. do you guys do your school full time and nothing else? if yes congrats on it. if not, do you set up answering machine service or have phone messages call forwarded some where? one of the things i have noticed is the phone. some people dont like to leave messages and its easier to talk them in for coming to an intro class if you pickup right away and answer all their question then call them back.

how many of you have after school programs? i know a lot of tkd and karate schools do them and make a butt load of extra cash. have any of you worked with them in the past at all? the kid market is hard with the "karate for kids" going on and schools that are strictly kid schools.

[Angelo F.]

Dear Sifu Parrella,

I would like to open a school within the next 6 months to a year and would like some advice on how to go about doing it.
I really enjoy reading your comments on the forum and have learned a lot. Since I have never been in business for myself I want to make sure I have as much knowledge and preparation (sales presentation, phone conversation, in person conversational skill, etc.) to make sure that I succeed in this venture. I know I will have more questions but have drawn some questions from some of your previous posts on the forum.
At your convenience, can you please find time to answer a few of the questions that follow. Your help is greatly appreciated.

Questions

What systems (improvements) did you develop (can a MA business owner make) in your schools that enabled you to earn more money? (You talked about this in one of your e-mails concerning making careers not jobs for your employees).

Can you give more detail on how you collect tuition/payments? I know you advocate the use of contracts (I agree) but once the contract is over can you give more information on the collection of the tuition (1st of month, how to bring it up to the student, etc.).

What are some of the do's and don'ts of the MA business that you learned from your mentor?

Can you discuss more about programming (what you offer at your school) and how you schedule these classes during the week. How long are your classes? Do you offer consecutive classes or have a small break in between them to allow the students to cool down and time for your instructors, directors to handle any business that comes up (i.e. return phone calls, schedule appointments, etc.).

Starting a school website. Do you recommend anyone?
How do you maximize the number of this and bring customers to your site?
Do you offer items for sale on your website and are you set up for such transactions?
How much should I spend for a website that offers e-commerce?

Advertising in the Yellow pages.
How big should my add be? I heard various parties say that is should be at least 1/4 of a page.
What type of text should I place in the ad? (i.e. improves confidence, weight loss, etc.).
Pictures?

Most Sincerely,

Angelo F.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

hey..those are some great questions.

Let's just look at a few;

Tuition/Billing/Contracts

You have to use contracts, period. Memberships run about $150 and up per month. When it comes to collecting students tuition, there are many companies that do it for you for a fee. Some people like the idea of doing it themselves, take advice from school owners who are doing well. Let a tuition billing company handle it. There are companies like Member Solutions, ASF, EFC, IFC etc. I think Member Solutions is the best of them all. Contact Joe Galea and let him know I recommended you, they are a great company. All the companies charge about 6-8% per month to collect tuition. Be smart. Don't focus on what you are giving up with tuition, focus on what you get.

School Website

Webmation is a great company. If you look at my website, you can see a link for them at the bottom. about $200 per month, but my website generates approx. 2-5 enrollments each month, it's definatly worth it.

Advertising

Don't waste your money with the yellow pages. Learn to VIP (Offer a free 30-day membership) to get new members. There are only a small fraction of schools in the country that use this marketing technique. It is the best. It costs nothing. I enroll 20-25 people per month in each school (40-45 per month combined) using this method. I do not use print ads anymore. Waste of money compared to VIPing. Lead boxes are good as well. Many of your new members should come from internally promoted referral programs. Birthday parties for kids are a great way to get new leads/students. 2 parties per month should bring in 40 new kids that have the potential to become your students.

That's is for now.

I'll try to answer more questions in the future. Keep em coming.

[stubbs]

I'm not sure how it works in the States, but my instructor just gets everyone to fill out a standing order form when they join. It takes a set payment from their account each month and doesn't cost anything. What do billing companies do? Why not just get your students to set up a standing order when they enrol?

If you're a new teacher, other than having confidence in yourself and your abilities and letting that show (without being ****y or arrogant), how do you reassure prospective students that what you teach is equal or better to some other guy down the road who's been teaching for 10 years? Was this ever an issue for you?
________
Buy Extreme Q Vaporizer (http://www.vaporshop.com/extreme-q-vaporizer.html)

[yutyeesam]

That VIP marketing tool sounds fantastic, would you be willing to elaborate on how you implement it? I'm guessing that it wasn't free for you, so I understand if you don't feel compelled to share it.

I'm still trying to understand the Rotating curriculum idea.
Someone explained to me that it is like the way a college runs, like English 101 in the fall , then English 102 in the spring, etc. Assuming a structure of Basics, Intermediate, and Advanced, as done with this school (http://www.trans-mafc.com/cirruculmn/Rotating-Curriculum.htm) , my questions are:

Would all the basics cycles be at the same days/time?
for example,

Fall CLF 101 - 5:30 MWF
Winter CLF 102 - 5:30 MWF
Spring CLF 103 - 5:30 MWF

If that's the case, then would the Intermediate cycles have to be given at a separate time (or day), such as,
Fall CLF 201 - 6:30 MWF or 5:30 Tu&Th
Winter CLF 202 - 6:30 MWF or 5:30 Tu&Th
Spring CLF 203 - 6:30 MWF or 5:30 Tu&Th

and yet another separate time (or day) for the advanced cycles?

If so, is there the problem where the student says, "I'm happy I passed the Basics cycles, and I want to move on to the Intermediate, but it just doesn't work with my schedule. The time the basics cycles met were perfect for me, but how can I go through the Intermediate cycles if it's at a different time?"

Or, does the Basics cycle through, then switch to intermediate, then advanced- all at the same time schedule (eg 5:30 MWF)? If that's the case, I don't see how a beginner can just jump into the 5:30 MWF class if the Advanced cycle is going through.

My apologies, I'm just trying to figure this out!
Thank you!

[Angelo F.]

Sifu Parrella,

Thank you for your timely response. A few more questions "popped" in my head after reading your comments.

First, do you charge for promotions? I know some people think it is a bad way of handling it since it feels like you are "buying" the promotion rather than "earning" it. If you do charge for promotions, is it a one time fee or do they pay evertime they test?

One time fee being, they take the test and fail but do not need to pay again for the test again. Are these fees all included in the programs (blackbelt, kids, etc.) that you offer?

Also I assume from the "rotating curriculum" post that you test everyone on a set day during the month rather than testing individually. This probably would help with book-keeping and paperwork that needs to be handled.

As far as the VIP promotion is concerned are you referring to a "special offer" of one month free enrollment? Or am I not understanding what you stated in your previous e-mail.

I know someone who offers one week free enrollment and he is doing very well. It just adds an extra student or so in class without really any additional cost to you. I believe it also helps advertise your product by giving the student "hands on" experience without initially paying which may sway their decision to enroll.
However, do you have them sign some type of safety agreement or other "contract" in case of accidental injury or otherwise before they become a full-time student?

I really like your comments about the birthday parties for the children. That is sheer brilliance!!!!!!
However, when do you usually have those scheduled? They would have to be on off hours or days (i.e. Sunday) when the school isn't loaded with students?

Can you explain more about "lead" boxes? Is that the same as information boxes where the prospective client fills out his/her personal information on a 4x6" card and places it in the box? Where can I place these lead boxes? Can you please provide more information?

As far as the question by Stubbs concerning "how do I reassure prospective students that what you teach is better than someone else down the road who has been teaching for 10 years." I am by no means an expert but would have to say by the enthusiasm of the teacher, students and overall feel of the school a prospective student can gauge the quality of instruction to some degree. Also by having the chief instructor introduce the prospective client to other instructors and students the prospective student can get a first hand indication as to whether this is something they want to persue. But in order to experience this they have to be invited to come to visit the school. I believe it would be to difficult to convey this comfort or level of quality and experience over the phone. I maybe be wrong and open to any and all suggestions and comments.

Finally, do you offer any type of aerobic kickboxing or other type of exercise program offered to people who just want to get into shape. I believe it is a good idea and could lead to future students since the participant is now exposed to punching, kicking, etc.

Thank you for your time and lets keep this discussion going. I really think this is a great topic and all who love martial arts can learn a great deal from.

Angelo F.

P.S. Yutyeesam, good question on the clarification of the rotating curriculum. :)

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Wow, lot's of questions again. I don't have time to address them all. Here's a thought though...


Concerning the guy who has been open for 10 years down the block:

Never worry about that guy. People aren't enrolling in a school because the teacher is the best around. Think about it. Here is a simple truth that will serve you well in the martial arts business:

"People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care."

Provide great classes, keep your school clean (nothing on the floor at all) start and end class on time, keep your promises and be professional, personable and friendly. You'll have students practically lining up to join. I kid you not.

It's not about 'what a great martial artist you are.'

[sihing]

This is a awesome thread with tons of great information on how to promote and run a successful Martial Arts business. I work for my Sifu full time in the kwoon and with my Sihing also working F/T, we have doubled the enrollment in less than a year. I will definetly use some of these methods described to add on to that increase in students. We pride ourselves on our continuing effort to provide quality instruction in Wing Chun will running a successful business without compromising anything.

Most of the guys on the Wing Chun forum wouldn't like this type of thread since most are small time, self concerned types that only want schools big enough to supply them with sparring partners or others with Martial Arts knowledge they can add to their Wing Chun

Keep the posts coming...

James

[Knifefighter]

Learn to VIP (Offer a free 30-day membership) to get new members.

Can you elaborate on this a bit? I'm interested in hearing how this works as it almost seems counterintuitive to me... kind of like giving away the store.

[Vasquez]

And yet nobody cares about you. You have this sad pathetic movie version about how this stuff works. If your Sifu made a fortune selling opium, or was involved in organized crime, would you still find being taught for a pittance ok? Slave labor is a character test? This isn't a Jacky Chan movie, son. SHould I teach 300-400 people, make a good living all the while knowing that there might be a dozen or so in that number who want to train like I did? Or should I take a menial labor job and teach just those dozen or so for some fuedal tradition? I add great value to people's lives with my teaching, even if they don't want to be some imaginary conquistador. Now respect your betters and behave boy.


You are lucky I have this buddhism peace and detechment thing going for not to be insulted by the likes of you. My sifu would laugh at what you say hahahahaha. what kung fu do you know anyway!

[GreenCloudCLF]

For a Buddhist you seem to have no problem accruing bad Karma by insulting the martial arts and methods of others...

[Buddy]

Here is a link to the brochures of the place I used to teach. While the place is geared exclusively to qi-huggers, the brochures will give an example of how their rotating curriculum worked for adults. No need to comment on the substance, I already left.
http://www.brooklinetaichi.com/downloads/downloads.htm

And because I'm feeling expansive for Vasqey, it's Yizong Baguazhang, little ninja turtle.

[Vasquez]

Here is a link to the brochures of the place I used to teach. While the place is geared exclusively to qi-huggers, the brochures will give an example of how their rotating curriculum worked for adults. No need to comment on the substance, I already left.
http://www.brooklinetaichi.com/downloads/downloads.htm

And because I'm feeling expansive for Vasqey, it's Yizong Baguazhang, little ninja turtle.

Wow you do the Bagua. that is so cool. I like the circle walk thing and its like a dance or tai chi. It must be spiritually wholesome. I do yoga as well. We sure would have heaps to talk about.

[Angelo F.]

Sifu Parrella,

Sorry about the bombardment of questions on my last few posts. This is a very interesting topic for me and want to learn more.
Please feel free to answer any of the questions at your convenience and at your discretion.

The reason for all of my questions is that I am very interested in running a successful MA business. However don't get me wrong, in my kung fu style we have people who are very knowledgeable at marketing/sales and running a successful business as well as being awesome practitioners of the art. But I really enjoy talking with others on how they have been successful and what strategies and techniques they used to help them grow and fullfill their dreams sort to speak.

However, everyone probably can relate to what I am about to say next. I have known and still know people who read all of the books, listen to all of the tapes and go to many, many seminars on marketing, salemenship, conversational skills, etc and tell me that "I/we are going to succeed in business because I have all of this information and am working out a strategy to implement everything I learned but it will take time to do." But what I have learned is that these people never quite get to were they want to go because even though they have a lot of knowledge they never seem to take action or they are waiting for the right time to take action. However, the implementation of these ideas never seem to come about. Maybe it is because they are nervous about taking the risk, pre-occupied with other things in their life or just a lack of confidence in themselves that they "may actually succeed."
This happens not only in business but in all areas of life where a commitment needs to be made. People sometime sabotage themselves by not acting or make bad judgments that they know will not further their success and cause them to move away from their goal. Some people are just afraid of succeeding it seems because of social pressure, a feeling of alienating themselves from everyone else or because they just don't want to take on the extra responsibility. However, if you really love what you do and want to start a business I think it is important to go after the goal and fulfill that need so eventually you can use your resources in a manner that helps the greater good.

In any case, I like to learn and ask questions to people who have "been there". People who are successful in their respective fields of study and people who have have the confidence in themselves enough to take that risk and do the hard work to succeed. These are the true winners in life and are also the people who pave the way for others that follow that want to succeed and spread the joy of their knowledge and hardwork to all walks of life.
I can tell from the comments you (Sifu Parrella) and others on the forum make that there are people posting on this thread that have a very successful MA business and really are excited about helping people take those risks and seek the rewards (i.e. spreading their martial art, goodwill, feelings of security/confidence, making a good living, etc) to those of us that follow. It is a refreshing feeling to have a thread like this where people are interested in sharing information for the good of people and martial arts in general.

Like I sometimes tell people, if you want to learn how to hit a 90mph fastball don't come to me. Although I read the books, watched the videos and went to the practices. You should seek professional instruction from a person who has "been there" (i.e. a coach, "big leaguer" or former batting champ). Those are the people who not only can help but want you to succeed and will give you that something extra that I still haven't realized.

Sorry for getting off of the topic (big tangent) but I guess I wanted to explain my sudden outbursts of questions.
I apologize and will "simmer down" for a bit. I just have a lot of passion for martial arts and really want to spread my art to all people who are interested in learning it.

Angelo F.

[Monkeyboy13]

Angelo,
I know I haven't posted on this thread yet, but I don't think there's any reason for you to appologize. The only way you can learn is by asking questions. As I often tell my students, "you'll never know if you don't ask." Having said this, I hope I'm not stepping on Sifu Parella's toes. I only offer my opinion.

I too have gleaned a lot of info from this thread, but still don't understand a few things - What's a lead box? and, as someone else already asked, Could you explain the VIP program in a little more detail please? How do you approach the students to invite in their friends, etc. Perceptions being what they are, how do you not seem money grubbing to parents of the students? Do you give one free month for every person the student brings in that ends up in a contract? If this is the case, does this mean that one student (if he/she brings in 12 friends that sign up) could be studying for a year for free, or is there a limit?

Again, perceptions being what they are, the big marketers in my area are McDojos (not because they market, simply because of what they teach - or don't). How do you aggressively market without people lumping you in with these same clubs (obviously once they see what you offer, they will understand, however until they get in the door, all clubs are created equal)?

I have always been put off by the attitude that simply because you want to make money at what you do, it negates the validity of your art. (The best surgeons make the most money, yet the best martial artists are supposed to live in squalor?) However, that is a large (albeit false) viewpoint. How do you overcome?

Peace, Steve

[Wilson]

Another question - mainly for kids classes. Its seems around me, most kids and parents would know "karate", "kata", "sensei" and "dojo" as martial arts terms; not kung fu, sifu, or kwoon for example.

What is the experience of those running schools now with successful kids programs. Do you use English (martial art, forms, teacher, school)? Do you use the Chinese terms? Does this cause confusion or hesitance (with parents especially) or is it a source of interest or pride that their kids are doing something different than the neighbors? How would you overcome the possible fear of the unknown?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

It is true, that since Japanese arts and Korean arts are more widely taught in America (than Chinese MA) terms like Dojo, Gi, Sensei are pretty much household words. It is just a matter of re-education for your students and families. When you meet, you introduce yourself (or you are introduced by a staff member who explains a little about you and what you are called).

The "art" of removing fear of the unknown is called "pre-framing" (Virtually letting someone know what's going to happen before it happens. For example:

"Mrs. Smith and Johnny, let me tell you what we are going to do today. First, I'm going to show you around the academy, then we'll meet the head instructor, next will sit down and find out what exactly you want your son to learn fromt the martial arts, then of course take his first black belt lesson. After the lesson, I'll show you how to use your Free VIP membership to save $100 off the tuition when you get Johnny started today, and get his uniform for FREE, okay?"

This is an example of our 'pre-frame' and it's what we tell prospective students when they come in for their tour/into lesson.

When you 'pre-frame' students (and it doesn't matter what you pre-frame them about; it could be what they'll learn in class, what they have to look forward to as a student here, what it will be like when they start black belt level training, etc.) you are relieving anxiety and helping then to stay in a positive frame of mind.

Hope this helps everyone!

[Angelo F.]

Sifu Parrella,

I like the way you approach business and interacting with customers.

How do you handle initial phone conversations? People a lot of time when they call want to know a little bit about the art, the cost and when classes are available. Should the subject of cost be avoided during this initial conversation? Some base their decision on whether or not to train with you based on this factor and usually without coming to visit to see what it is you have to offer. They hear the price and then you can hear their tone change and it seems like the conversation has basically ended. How do you get them from this cost question to in the school for a visit?
How do you get past the "what is the cost for all of this?" type of question during the initial phone conversation.

I think it is best if people come in and can watch a class and talk with the instructor (sifu) and get a general feeling of the school.
Is it best to tell them that "our school offers many programs and it would be best if you can stop in and visit so we can discuss which program is right for you" type of reply. Then ask them when they would be available and immediately invite them to the school at that day/time. I believe this would motivate the prospective client to visit otherwise he/she would feel that they are letting you down by not attending their scheduled appointment.

Also would you call them if they didn't show up for their scheduled appointment at a later date/time?

Finally, if a student is really interested in learning (joining the school) but can't afford the annual contract, how do you handle that?
Do you ask them what you can afford and go from there? Or do you offer them an agreement of sometype to help maintain the school (cleaning, general chores, etc.) and reduce the contract rate?

Kind Regards,

Angelo F.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Angelo,

Let me address a couple of your questions.

As far as, if a student cannot afford the cost of lessons? There are a few factors here; If most people cannot afford your lessons - you are too expensive or your area is too poor. ( I would think the latter happens more than the first) If you find a student who cannot afford lessons, move on....find another who can. Don't waste your time with people who cannot afford your tuition.

Appointment confirmations;
Make them the day before the appointment, and then the day of. When you call the first time, let them know you are calling to let them know you saved a spot for them in class and you wanted to let them know that they can bring a friend with them to class. "Who would you like to bring" is what needs to be said. If they don't have anyone in mind, that's okay. We will ask for the referral every step of the way.

The second call, confirms that they have directions to the school and that if they enjoy the class as much as we think they will, they can get started today and get a free uniform. "So go ahead and bring a method of payment with you today Mrs. Smith, so if you enjoy Johnny's first Black Belt lesson today, we can get him a free uniform as well.

Making two confirmation calls will dramatically increase your 'show up' ratio. We all know that showing up for an intro/tour is half the battle.

More tomorrow, keep the questions coming.

[Angelo F.]

Dear Sifu Parrella or to whom it may concern,

Do you teach private lessons at your school or are you available for them?
The reason I ask is I know people who teach private lessons in which for an agreed upon fee the student can work one-on-one with the teach for a period of time (usually in one hour time blocks). I think this is beneficial for the student and he/she can learn a lot and get information that the teacher may not give out in a regular class. This enables the student to get more in-depth, detailed knowledge of the particular subject they are inquiring on. How much would you charge for an hour private lesson if you do indeed teach them?

Secondly, have you ever had someone come into your school and want to challenge or fight you. How do you handle those types of situations? I have heard people say that "we are running a business" and are not into fighting random people off of the street or accepting such matches. Even going as far as telling the person that if they sign-up for classes they can accommodate such a request. I don't know how I would handle such a situation since I really haven't been exposed to one yet. Plus if you do accept the challenge and beat the person, who is to say he doesn't come back with a gun, try and destroy property or ruin your business (even sue). I think the word I have heard is "touch hands" instead of fighting.
This has happened to a few people I know that run schools. People come in and want to fight the instructor while he is running a class. The teacher usually tries to avoid such a situation because it is bad for business. (shows effectiveness of the art but blood coming out of someone's body doesn't appeal to anyone except for the true fighters in the class not the average joe who wants to learn how to defend himself, lose weight or build confidence). So the teacher may say that he will "touch hands" with the person after class and hopefully by doing so will show the aggessor that he knows what he is doing and the confrontation will cease. Maybe get a new student but not sure if a I would personally want to teach someone like that at this point.
Can you please give me your comments on this subject?

Thirdly, at what age do you start accepting students? I have noticed that children get easily distracted (especially if they have a window to view the outside world) or after some time start developing friends in classes and like to talk about subject or play wrestle (insert favorite WWE character here) and at times don't pay attention.
Do you find it best if the parent stays with the child for their lesson? Also as far as getting them to practice consistently it is best if they come to the school but do you encourage practicing at home too? If so, do you give any homework assignments to them so they stay on track and keep them motivated?

Finally, have you ever taught anyone with a physical or mental handicap? Blindness, wheelchair bound, one arm/leg, etc?
Any advice on how to teach people who may not be able to utilize all of their senses/limbs as other students would. Do you still try and sign these types of students up for 1, 2 or 3 year contracts?
I know the art should fit the person and not have the person fit the art but I think this would be a challenging task and any advice would be appreciated.

Most Sincerely,

Angelo F.

[Monkeyboy13]

Angelo,
A way to handle challenges is to agree, with addendums. This challenger "obviously" must be representing his school/teacher, therefore, when he loses that school must close and move on. (Let him know you will contact his sifu regarding this). The match will be held on neutral ground at a pre-arranged date. Liability waivers will be drawn up so that either party is protected in the event of a "fair" death or disability, and an "anti-retribution" clause will be included in the waiver, punishable by law (ie, the loser - nor his brothers - can't exact any sort of vengance for whatever may happen during the battle.). Explain that once these addendums are met, and contracts and waivers are signed, then you would accept the challenge. These were verbal sorts of agreements back between schools in China in the last century (I know, my sifu partook in such matches), but in this day and age, verbal agreements don't amount to squat. If the challenger doesn't agree to contracts, then explain to him he doesn't want the fight. Understand, if this is an ire based "attack", the weeks it would take to draw up the legalities will cool the ire. If it's a legitimate rivalry, explain there are easier ways to settle it, but the attacker should realize what size of chunk he's trying to bite off. Understand, I never feel the need to fight, but you are now leaving the choice with the agressor. Make sure you can back up your talk though.

As for kids. If they are losing interest badly, then you should re-examine your program. I even leave my kids to work in similar groups without direct supervision (I'm in the room, but maybe working with a different group) for small periods of time, and the kids (as young as 6) understand the discipline I'm looking for, and respect me enough to keep working. Does this mean there is no talking, et al? No, but it is definitely kept to a minimum, and it's a rule I rarely have to enforce, as the kids know what is expected. I keep it fun/challenging enough that they don't want to get distracted.

Handicaps - I've taught blind, people, and a gentleman with no arms. (as well as parkinson's sufferers, etc.) The program works for everyone. The gentleman with no arms, I had to modify some of the taolu, but it still works. Even sparring, you have to wait until they accept what they are capable of (both good and bad), and once they understand how their bodies work, let them try. (Obviously with people with great control - ie. instructors, etc.)

Peace, Steve

[Buddy]

Mike,
Which of the mentoring groups (MATA, etc) do you like and why?

[Vasquez]

It's right to fight the teacher to test his kung fu. anyone who want to do kung fu loves to fight. if you get beaten you can beg to be his student. that was the old way and the only way.

[Monkeyboy13]

Vasquez
I think you miss the point. It's not right to fight. Ask your sifu. However, if need be, you must make sure you're the best fighter you can be. If you think fighting is the answer, then my guess is that you've missed a great deal of what your sifu has to offer.

Steve

[Vasquez]

When you first learn kung fu you'll be itching to fight so you fight and fight. Too bad if sifu catches you because you will be punished. In time you will learn not to giht then you'll be taught the secrets of the style.

[Buddy]

You're just lucky he's got this buddhism peace and detechment thing going. :rolleyes:
Now leave the room so grown folks can talk Vazzy

[Vasquez]

I'm the buddhist with deterchment and peace and karma going..... also kindof the guy who sticks around. That's me.

[Buddy]

Sorry, deterchment. Makes you whiter and brighter, right?

[northernArts]

First let me say this is an excellent thread - I've enjoyed it. It's great to see people like Lama Pai Sifu succeed - he's doing a lot for CMA and I agree that qualified instructors of CMA greatly benefit their students in all aspects of life - therefore they should be well compensated.

Now here's something I wonder about. Lama Pai Sifu based on the data you have provided I would say you are very successful financially - do you think it's important for school owners to have the advice of professionals in terms of wealth management/asset protection. Obviously a lot of successful people that own companies find a way to put their assets & income into a trust(to their wife or children) or incorporate offshore as a way to limit liability. I guess I'm just wondering out loud whether people on this board have considered that - we live in a litigious society and I would think asset protection would be a major concern for anyone in this field. Although you have insurance policies available so maybe I'm wrong. Maybe people just get insured against potential lawsuits and leave it at that.

Any comments? Once again I really respect your school Lama Pai Sifu - I've visited the site before I knew you were on this board.

[Buddy]

I'd really like to see this thread continue. I plan on openiing a school in the near future and want to make certain it's profitable from the get go.

[Vasquez]

Buddy, Bagua sure can attract plenty of women folk who are into spirituality. relaxation and a good message.

[Buddy]

****ant,
Stay on topic or shut the **** up.

[Vasquez]

some more meditation will cure your attitude. try with incense and crystals

[Invisible-fist]

I'm very interested in this subject. Does anybody know if there is a forum dedicated to the business aspect of the martial arts?

[Invisible-fist]

I can see how a contract would be a great help to your business, but it doesn't seem to benefit the student at all: I don't think I would ever join a school that insisted on contracts. Don't people flee out the door? Don't you lose people that would otherwise become students?

[yutyeesam]

I can see how a contract would be a great help to your business, but it doesn't seem to benefit the student at all: I don't think I would ever join a school that insisted on contracts. Don't people flee out the door? Don't you lose people that would otherwise become students?

i think it's standard protocol for schools to use at least 6 mo contracts. you tell them about commitment, and how it is part of the martial arts, etc. like, you can never truly gain the benefits of martial arts (health, self defense, energy, etc) by having one foot in the door and the other out- that is a recipe for failure.

there is a trick schools use where people have the option of say a 6 mo contract, which is a total of $600, in $100/month payments. Or, if they really don't want to go the contract route, and just do it month by month, they have that option as well, except that method is 130/mo...and you tell them that this is standard protocol for any professional school in town...and you do tend to get what you pay for.

MUHAHAHA.
*sorry*

-123

[Lama Pai Sifu]

School Owners!!!!! Attention!!!!!!!!!!

Students shouldn't enroll in your school based on the way they pay for lessons, i.e; in-house payment, EFT/CC, or CONTRACTS!

I see schools with big signs in their windows stating: NO CONTRACTS!

This is just so ridiculous. If you are one of these schools, do us all a favor.

1. Close down. You are only delaying the inevitable anyway.

Or

2. Step up your knowledge of your business and enroll people based on what your program offers, not how they pay.


All business have contracts. Some are long, some are short. Try and find a car lease for month-to-month, or a mortgage or try to lease space for your school. If you are a school owner and you have a problem with long term agreements, tell it to your landlord. See if he shares your views.

[Vasquez]

Kungfu is a way of life., its not a business. Hey am I the only one here who learns from the real deal.

[yutyeesam]

School Owners!!!!! Attention!!!!!!!!!!

Students shouldn't enroll in your school based on the way they pay for lessons, i.e; in-house payment, EFT/CC, or CONTRACTS!

I see schools with big signs in their windows stating: NO CONTRACTS!

This is just so ridiculous. If you are one of these schools, do us all a favor.

1. Close down. You are only delaying the inevitable anyway.

Or

2. Step up your knowledge of your business and enroll people based on what your program offers, not how they pay.


All business have contracts. Some are long, some are short. Try and find a car lease for month-to-month, or a mortgage or try to lease space for your school. If you are a school owner and you have a problem with long term agreements, tell it to your landlord. See if he shares your views.

What Sifu Parella said is very very true, as I am just now implementing contracts.

I think one of the issues that underlies the heart of the problem martial arts schools have with trying to implement agreements is that it requires work to make it seem like to the client that it is not a big deal, and that it is to their benefit - in other words, BEING A SALESPERSON. Not a slimy one, because the 2 get equated. But being a good salesperson really requires training. This is an absolute must. Being a good salesperson means you have to really study consumer behavior, anticipate objections, and find ways to counter them. Some people have a natural gift for this. But most do not. You need training.

If you hone your sales presentation skills, the idea of presenting a contract/agreement becomes a lot easier.

[Invisible-fist]

But its NOT to their benefit.

How is a prospect supposed to commit to a training program for 6 months based on seing one class?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Hey..let's keep this thread to OWNERS of Chinese Martial Arts Schools.

I am not interested in debating business practices with students of schools are have a different perspective.

Although I respect everyone's opinion, this may not be the right thread for students to discuss how the THINK schools should run.

The idea of this thread is to share ideas and discuss topics regading school operations and management. :)

Let's get some good questions and topics here and move forward!

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Invis-fist,

How ISN"T a prospect supposed to commit after taking only one class?

If you are a school owner and you can't get someone to sign up for 6 months based on one class, you seriously need to learn how to teach a better class.

Not a class that YOU want to teach, but a class that students want to learn in.

My schools enroll people everyday with a tour of the school and a class (adults) or introductory lesson (kids).

[Indestructible]

I'm not a school owner but I am a very active in school decisions. I regularly comp new prospects and I use these comps to qualify wether or not I want this prospect as a member of my school. Now you may think as a consumer you are qualifing me or my school, but the fact of the matter is, you really don't have the last say on wether you will or will not join.
Now, I'm not doing this based on fitness or coordination ar any other shallow consideration.
I use comps (usually 1-2 lessons)as a screening process to evaluate attitudes, egos and any other potential problems.
This has to be done because we want a healthy attitude and good people in our kwoon.
So far this is working really well. We opened on Aug 6th and already have approx. 40 members in just our 7th week of business. We require contracts, but they are either 3 or 6 month commitments. This may change as the business grows, but for right now it's working.

Business owners, if you haven't already, I suggest you read Sales Closing for Dummies by Tom Hopkins. It's an excellent read and will help you grow your membership.

[Invisible-fist]

Sifu Parella,

Please understand that I am genuinely trying to see things your way. You still haven't answered the question...doesnt the contract frighten people away?

In my sales training we did a lot of role playing. So, lets role play this scenario.

Me: It looks like a good school, but there's no way I can make that kind of comittment. I'll buy a month's worth and see if I like it, but I won't sign a six month contract.

You: ???

[PangQuan]

sure you could get someone to sign up for six months from one class.

i know at our school, you cannot get a real feel for the enire school from one class. there is simply too much material for that. you can get a good feel of the teacher, the other students, and a flavor for the style.

You should from one class be able to tell if the school is total crap, but to make a committment....that depends on several factors.

is the person interested an existing martial artist or a beginning martial artist?

a beginner may need more time to decide if that school and style is right for them.

are they financially capable of starting out with that kind of commitment?

are they positive that the school schedule will mesh well with theirs.

are they a child being overseen by a guardian, is the guardian a martial artists.
a non martial artist guardian will not view things from the same angle a martial artist will.

its not really a black or white situation, there is a grey area.

at our school you can do a one month, three month trial, or sign up for month to month, six month, one year, two year, five year, or pay a flat fee and train till you recieve your black sash (an average of 10 years or so)

a school should be flexable enough to meet any individuals needs that walk through the door. other wise your only going to have a limited student body based around cramped contract condidtions.

[Invisible-fist]

Pang Quan:

Your system sounds excellent. How much do you charge for the black belt program?

If I understand you correctly, they will train at no additional cost until they achieve their black sash (no matter how long it takes?) Do these students get a special uniform/patch?

Which reminds me, can somebody explaing the "black belt club" concept to me?

[yutyeesam]

Sifu Parella,

Please understand that I am genuinely trying to see things your way. You still haven't answered the question...doesnt the contract frighten people away?

In my sales training we did a lot of role playing. So, lets role play this scenario.

Me: It looks like a good school, but there's no way I can make that kind of comittment. I'll buy a month's worth and see if I like it, but I won't sign a six month contract.

You: ???

Invisi-Fist, this is a good question. Issues of how to sell and negotiate are probably the most important to tackle.

If the person is this pushy, then I'd say negotiate. Say, well we can't let you go for a full month without a commitment, so the best I can do, and this is not our standard procedure, I'm making an exception for you, is let you try one week worth of classes for $50. After a week, you'd have had ample time to make the decision.

I don't know tho, I haven't encountered a client this pushy. I'm sure I will, tho.

-123

[PangQuan]

Pang Quan:

Your system sounds excellent. How much do you charge for the black belt program?

If I understand you correctly, they will train at no additional cost until they achieve their black sash (no matter how long it takes?) Do these students get a special uniform/patch?

Which reminds me, can somebody explaing the "black belt club" concept to me?

This is correct, no additional costs until they recieve the black sash. As which point you then train at the school for the rest of your life for free. I am not sure as to the cost, I have never made an inquiry into this as I pay by the year.

The students do not recieve any special patches or attention, they just dont have to worry about payments.

we dont have a black belt club so i cant help you there. Up until a few years ago there was not even a belt rank system. everyone just wore the traditional sized red sashes.

[Anthony]

The "Black Belt Club" more or less (each school is slightly different) is comprised of students who are on a program in which they are paying their way up until they receive their black belt. It's nothing more than a long term contract. Either that or they pay it in full in one large lump sum (again if student quits all their money is bye bye). The benefit to the school is that the student stays longer thereby paying more or pays more up front.

The school will hype up the student by telling them that they are "invited" to join because they show alot of promise....yadda yadda.

The benefit to the student? You feel "special" because you are in an elite "club" at the school. The school of course tries to hype up the "club" with all this nonsense like...."special private classes" or "a different colored uniform" again...yadda yadda.

If you sign up for a short term program, they may try to enroll you before your program is up. Thats pretty much all it is.

[Anthony]

"All business have contracts. Some are long, some are short. Try and find a car lease for month-to-month, or a mortgage or try to lease space for your school. If you are a school owner and you have a problem with long term agreements, tell it to your landlord. See if he shares your views."

Last time I checked, cars have to pass inspections.

Houses are inspected before they go under contract.

Buildings have codes.

All you "masters".....where is your "masters degree?" Where is your degree in education that you can teach young children (or anyone for that matter). Where are your medical certificates? After all, you are having people engage in an activity that has some safety risk. Where are ANY credentials? Any titles won?

What i'm trying to say is that the MA will NEVER be an industry unless it's business owners/teachers are held up to some VERIFIABLE standards that people can respect and see (that are tangible). Not just "my master was Chinese....I have so and so lineage.....I teach traditional.....etc."

You want to get paid for your "valuable" time? You want comittment? Prove to me (the prospective student) who you are to deserve it.

Just my thoughts.

[yutyeesam]

I have a masters in education. only recently have i listed it on my credentials. it hasn't contributed one iota to my enrollment stats.

what do they look for? what are the things that make them want to commit to me? professionalism in my service and conduct.

[Oso]

Anthony brings up some good points about the industry.

Things I have seen alot in the 20+ years I've been knocking around this circle that are going to turn around and bite us all in the ass are:

1 - School owners playing psychologist.
2 - School owners playing medical doctor
3 - School owners running defacto day care centers under the guise of 'after school programs'.

I'm actually for some sort of 'board'. The question, and about 10 years of bickering, is: Who sits on it?

[Ben Gash]

I've got a City and Guilds 7307 "teaching adults" certificate, as well as a degree module in skills teaching. I've got the "Advanced Life Support" and "European Paediatric Life Support" qualifications, along with an RN (and I've still got to go on a first aid course in a couple of months :rolleyes: ).
In the UK, the culture is changing somewhat, and the scope for poor practice is being reduced. Many venues and local authorities (and as most of us here don't have full time kwoons, they're often one and the same) are now demanding a coaching certificate, first aid documentation, police clearance to work with kids and universally now, $10,000,000 public liability cover. On top of this, I've just been asked to provide risk assessments for weapons training :( Also, if the venue doesn't ask for this, the Insurer definitely will. As a consequence of this, my association is assembling a training package for instructors covering these things.
Ironically at my old TKD school (now a major McDojo), in the run up to my black belt grading I had to do 15+ hours of coaching and buisness seminars and have taught full classes regularly. How many Kung Fu schools do you think prepare their seniors in this way?
How would I like to change my school? Not making an operating loss would be nice, but the tax man tells me that could take over a year :eek:

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Anthony Said:


All you "masters".....where is your "masters degree?" Where is your degree in education that you can teach young children (or anyone for that matter). Where are your medical certificates? After all, you are having people engage in an activity that has some safety risk. Where are ANY credentials? Any titles won?

What i'm trying to say is that the MA will NEVER be an industry unless it's business owners/teachers are held up to some VERIFIABLE standards that people can respect and see (that are tangible). Not just "my master was Chinese....I have so and so lineage.....I teach traditional.....etc."

You want to get paid for your "valuable" time? You want comittment? Prove to me (the prospective student) who you are to deserve it.


Anthony, are you a school owner? From your post, I would imagine, that you are not, or if you are, you are a frustrated one.

The MA IS an Industry. It's a 3 Billion dollar a year industry as a matter of fact. (Check with NAMPA - National Association of Professional Martial Artisits).

You do not need a degree at this time to teach MA. Many states fight each year to pass some form of legislature to regulate the MA. It may happen, it may not. If it does, and if you know what the language in these bills state....you'd know that it will be a sad day for most martial artists. 80% of the schools will not make the grade and will not be able to operate. But I digress...

Yes, I want a committment from my students. Yes, they can join for 6 months, and then YES, I encourage them to make committements to become a black belt. Yes, this is my responsibility as their instructor....to help them reach the goal they set at the begining of their training. Why do they committ? BECAUSE THE WANT TO! Get off your high horse and realize that no one is twisting anyone's arm to enroll in any school. If school owners didn't PROVE, as you said, their value in their program, then people wouldn't enroll. It's that simple.


The "Black Belt Club" more or less (each school is slightly different) is comprised of students who are on a program in which they are paying their way up until they receive their black belt. It's nothing more than a long term contract. Either that or they pay it in full in one large lump sum (again if student quits all their money is bye bye). The benefit to the school is that the student stays longer thereby paying more or pays more up front.

The school will hype up the student by telling them that they are "invited" to join because they show alot of promise....yadda yadda.

The benefit to the student? You feel "special" because you are in an elite "club" at the school. The school of course tries to hype up the "club" with all this nonsense like...."special private classes" or "a different colored uniform" again...yadda yadda.

If you sign up for a short term program, they may try to enroll you before your program is up. Thats pretty much all it is.

Every school runs thier programs diffently. Again, it's easy to spot your frustration when you downplay your interpretation of what you think a school offers when it comes to "Black Belt Level Training." Either you have a school and tried this, enrolled in school and was dissapointed, or you heard about this concept and dismissed it before you got all the info. Allow me to explain this a bit further:

Black belt training is more than a uniform and a patch. It is the core of the school, and heck, I'll just talk about my schools for a moment. You don't have to be special to be invited into Black Belt, or even Masters Club Traininig. You have to be willing to make a commitment to yourself and to your school to become a black belt. Students are excited about the idea of learning the curriclulum; forms, weapons, sparring, 2 person sets, etc. in order to reach their black belt. They join because they want to, and we do a great job in painting a picture of what students will become/feel like when they reach that goal.

As an experienced school owner (who's schools are in the top 1% off all schools in world, income-wise) I realize that one reason why students quit their schools is financial. People don't budjet themselves properly and don't prepare for things in their lives financially. When money gets tight, MA can get squeezed out. Having students pay off their tuition quickly, (in full or in short number of payments), the chance that they will stay longer,..increases.

Experienced school owners also realize that students will not achieve the success they first express they want, if they don't set a goal.

There is a statistic that states: "For everyday that a student is enrolled in college, and does not declare a major, thier chances of dropping out of school exponentially increases by the day." Pretty powerful when you associate that to MA schools?

Getting my students to stay and train with me for 3,4,6,7 and even 10 years is my goal. I know, if you stay long enough, you'll receive all the benefits you were looking for. I have over 15 students that have been with me for over 12 years alone, dozens at the 7 year mark, and over 150 at the 3 year mark alone. And these are students who actively train each week/month at the centers. I say it not to impress you...but to impress upon you that there are certainly more superior ways to running your school than others.

These are more thoughts as well, but they are backed up by REAL DATA, the kind of data that you can actually take to the bank!

School owners; There is a better way! You do not have to be frustrated anymore!

[PangQuan]

How many Kung Fu schools do you think prepare their seniors in this way?

alot. many kung fu masters will have thier senior student(s) teach and manage the school, or another branch, for years before they complete their training with them...

[MasterKiller]

I have over 15 students that have been with me for over 12 years alone, dozens at the 7 year mark, and over 150 at the 3 year mark alone. And these are students who actively train each week/month at the centers. I say it not to impress you...but to impress upon you that there are certainly more superior ways to running your school than others.

What are they getting for their money after 12 years? More forms? More techniques? Or just a training hall?

Do you have enough material to keep people learning new stuff for 10 years?

[PangQuan]

is it really about how many students you can slam into a school?

[yutyeesam]

is it really about how many students you can slam into a school?

if we're talking about a financially robust 6 figure income profit generating business, yes. they are the heart and soul of the streamline revenue.

but you're right, it's not all about how many students you can get to enroll, because getting the students in the door is one thing, retaining them is another.

There's so much turnover with martial arts students it's not even funny. That's why enrollment is one of the top priority issues.

123

[PangQuan]

I guess it depends on what you want from your school, if its money i can see that.

If all you want is to find a student or a few students worthy of learning everything you have to offer, then its just about finding the right stutents...

I am no kung fu master, i will work hard and try to make it. If I ever do, I dont plan to make lots of money, I plan to change someones life, and help them with what I know...

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I'm not sure where the average instructor is in their training, but I indeed have more than enough material to continue to teach my students for over 15 years. But, I don't think that everyone needs to know as much as myself in order to do that.

Slamming students into a school? I don't think so. Who said anything about that?

As far as what my students who have been with me for over 10 years are getting? They are continually learning new material, forms, fighting sets, etc. They are not forced to stay, they are obviously here for a reason.

If you are an instructor who does not have a lot of material, ...do a service to your students and continue to learn and train. Lot's of great teachers out there, lot's of stuff to learn.

Successful school: 20+ new enrollments per month, 10+ Black Belt/Masters Club memberships. Do this, and you will experience a 6 figure income annually.

[MasterKiller]

I'm not sure where the average instructor is in their training, but I indeed have more than enough material to continue to teach my students for over 15 years. But, I don't think that everyone needs to know as much as myself in order to do that. Did you get 15 years of material from Chan Tai San, or are you still picking stuff up and passing that along as well?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Master Killer:

I actually did get over 15 years worth of material from my Sifu, Chan Tai-San. My classmates and I also shared tons of material with each other. My school has 18 choy lay fut hand forms, almost 20 Lama Pai hand forms, possibly 60 weapon sets, and 23 two, three and four person hand and or weapon fighting sets. that is most likely a bit more than the average school owner, but I don't think that you need that much to teach. I've only taught a fraction of all that material. Not to mention misc. other styles I learned, a few forms of Bok Mei, and then a coule of Monkey Style, Northern stuff, Mok Ga, etc.

The way you structure your curriculum is paramount to making your school successful. The thing is, schools that don't do well, blame the fact that they don't know any "slick marketing or sales tricks". The fact is: Curriculum is the Key to a successful school. People will not upgrade their memberships if they are not actually receiving the benefits (results) that they were promised.

[Indestructible]

Lama Pai Sifu,
Do you do much advertising, or do you recruit new students by networking your current students? Or both? What are you feelings on advertising and what has worked best for you?
Thanks,
Ind.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Look at one of my former posts on this thread.

NO ADVERTISING WHATSOEVER!

Website, and VIP memberships given out everyday! 6 per day per school at a minimum. No less.

Read the post

[Anthony]

I don't have a degree in Accounting but I think I'll just set up shop as a CPA (certified public accountant) and get paid for doing peoples taxes, etc. ;) My reference to "industry" is to say that there are no standards in MA as there are in the Accounting industry. I can call myself an accountant but nobody "certified" me in it. Who would come to me? Okay so MA makes money....fine. I'm sure I could too by doing things I don't have a license to do.

I'm really not frustrated at all....i'm quite happy with my life (not that I care if anyone thinks so or not) and anyone else can do what they want (there are bigger problems than what we are discussing). I'm throwing things out as food for thought. I realise there are different points of view (students/ instructor/business owner). If anything, Oso above put it best:

"1 - School owners playing psychologist.
2 - School owners playing medical doctor
3 - School owners running defacto day care centers under the guise of 'after school programs'."

It's all the instructors pretending to be what they are not that is a pet peeve (it's not that big of a deal to me either) of mine in MA. I'd rather learn boxing from a guy who's won a title.....just me :)

"If school owners didn't PROVE, as you said, their value in their program, then people wouldn't enroll. It's that simple."

That's fine but enrolling (people enroll for different reasons and you can't say for a fact that it's because they see value right away-after one trial lesson) is one thing and keeping them there or keeping their money when they want to quit is another. You said yourself that students shouldn't be allowed to quit when THEY want to (sounds arrogant to me). Again, that's good for the instructor but not the student (You see, I said I see both points of view :) ). Nobody NEEDS MA and people can decide for themselves when they don't want to do something (yes it stinks for the school owner who needs to pay bills). Do you want your students to stick to a goal that they decide they don't want to achieve anymore? I mean, what if you pay for a three year program in full and move out of state in one year. I'm sure youre not giving anyone any money back. Or if they are on a contract for three years. Do you end the contract. I'm seriously curious.

If you and your students are happy and everything is working out fine for both parties (as you are stating) then power to both of you. If this is the case at your school (which I admittedly know nothing about) then my hat's off to you.

"People don't budjet themselves properly and don't prepare for things in their lives financially. "

Wow! Youre a financial advisor now? I'll add that as number 4 to the list above. This is my point.....who are you to say this about someone else's finances? Sorry but is there something I don't get here but that statement sounds rather arrogant of you.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Anthony,

If someone moves a certain amount of miles out of the area, they are ABSOLUTELY entitled to a pro-rated refund of the unused portion of their tuition. NYS law, and certainly one obeyed in my schools. Doesn't happen a lot, but we do refund money if they had paid in full or paid in advanced for an unused portion.

Playing doctor or babysiter..etc., is certainly a way to get into trouble with your business. I never said I recommended it and I don't need to be a CPA or a FA in order to make a statement regarding the averages person's finances. I write hundreds of thousands of dollars in membership agreements each year and both my schools will gross just a little under $900K this year. I think that qualifies me to make some generalizations regading people's finances. At least the people that enroll in my schools. I also work as a Consultant for MA businesses. So I have their experiences as well to draw from.

Personally, I don't like when instructors make claims about themselves or thier training that isn't true either. Pet peeve of mine as well.

And does everyone see value right away, after one class? Nope. But enough do for me.

[Buddy]

Mike,
I emailed about this but I'll try it again here. You mentioned mentoring earlier and some organizations. NAPMA is gone so which would you recommend for jumping out of the starting gate early? I'm a bagua guy but feel the market is probably more with the health crowd so will offer a lot of qigong ang Taji as well as bagua, xingyi and pentjak silat and northern shaolin for kids. Was it these organizations that got your schools in the fast lane quickly?
Buddy Tripp
Yizong Baguazhang

[Invisible-fist]

Another business related question. Is kung fu less popular and less marketable than karate/taekwondo? Are there challenges with marketing the CMA?

[sihing]

Another business related question. Is kung fu less popular and less marketable than karate/taekwondo? Are there challenges with marketing the CMA?

I don't think CMA is less marketable than any other MA out there. There's something for everyone in CMA and more IMO. As a group I would have to say the the CMA community is probably the biggest group of them all in the MA. As a Wing Chun Instructor, I know that this one aspect of CMA is very big, and growing more and more every year.

James

[PangQuan]

Another business related question. Is kung fu less popular and less marketable than karate/taekwondo? Are there challenges with marketing the CMA?

Ill have to agree with sihing. In addition I would say, that (mainly in the past) CMA has had a bit more of a challenge in marketing. Mostly due to the fact that many people have no real idea of what chinese martial arts entails. Now with popular media and time dedicated individuals that is not so much the case.

Popularity is pretty much the same deal. Now CMA is getting more recognition than in the past.

I would say that Karate/TaeKwonDo has had an advantage in the past, because its been around longer, people are more familiar with the names. Everyone knows someone who practices karate or taekwondo.

How often do you still hear the phrase "karate chop", its engrained into peoples heads, from the corner side training halls to the olympic games. Its mainly comes down to the fact that karate/taekwondo has had a longer presence than cma (in certain countries).

I will definately agree that CMA has a very large element to market.

[stubbs]

Out of interest - say I decide to travel the world and train here and there studying different martial arts. I wouldn't have expert knowledge on any one martial art but I would have basic knowledge of several martial arts. Is there anything in place that would stop me from opening a MMA school/gym? I'm not saying that I would want to, but what could stop someone from doing this and would it necessarily be a bad thing?

[Angelo F.]

I need some advice on which way to go when starting a school.

Which is more popular when martial arts is involved, starting an LLC (Limited Liability Corporation) or S-corp? Is there other options?

Are these needed in order to run a martial arts school?

Any advice from school owners is appreciated.

Lama Pai Sifu - Do you have an LLC or s-corp?

Sincerely,

Angelo F.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Angelo,

Good question. You do not need an LLC, especially if you are the sole owner (no partners) All you need is a standard corporation.

After you receive your corporation papers (let me know if you need to know where to get incorporated inexpensivly on the net) you must decide whether you want to be an "S" chapter or a "C" chapter. Your accounant can do it for you, or you can fill out a form on the IRS website.

I prefer an "S", but you should speak to your accountant regarding that matter. As I am not an accounant, I would not want to give any advice in that area.

For anyone other school owners/soon to be owners on the forum, EVERYONE should incorporate if you are teaching. Incorporating separates your assets from the business, in the even that anyone would try to sue the business. You, as a person, are separate from the corporation.

Hope this helps, Angelo!

[Angelo F.]

Sifu Parrella,

Thank you for the timely response.

I don't plan to have any partners but may hire employees at some time in the future (additional teachers, secretary??? etc.).

I have done a bit of research on the LLC / S-corp thing. It seems that the LLC route I have to pay more in taxes but the paperwork is easier to file (less cost when April 15th comes around).
With the S-corp I believe I can save on taxes since I have to "assign" myself a reasonable wage then I can pay myself dividends? This allows me to pay less taxes, I guess?
Both allow me to separate my assets from my business.

Why do you choose an S-corp?

I did read that LLCs have a time limitation on them. Is that true? If so, what happens if my LLC expires? Can I apply for another on under the same school name?

Very confused on this as you probably can tell.
Do I need to talk to a lawyer as well as an accountant regarding incorporating myself?

Sifu Parrella, can you please let me know the website for incorporating myself? Is that the way to go?


One more question a bit off the subject.

If I choose to go the contract route for signing up students (I know we had many long conversations about contracts; pro/con), I believe I would need to get something written up from a lawyer? Or can I do that myself? If so, how would I know if it is binding, legal, etc.
Confused again. :(

Sincerely,

Angelo F.

P.S. Like it may have been stated in earlier posts; most of us are very good practitioners, teachers, etc. but when it comes to the business aspects some of us get very confused as what is the right thing to do. :(
Luckily for us, we have knowledgable martial artist as well as business men posting and helping us with these problems. :)

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Angelo,

I'm not sure about all the limitations or benefits regarding the LLC, I just know that they weren't form me, and most school owners I know, opt for the "S" vs. the "C" election. Like I said, ask your accountant, but still, it's what most school owners do. The S vs. the C, has to do with paying tax on profit of the company, or your profit. I think the S fits most of us.

As far as contracts go: YOU MUST USE THEM. Contracts are not a bad evil thing, as most people would believe.
They are a necessity to running a good business. Every business transaction that you do, in the real world, today..is based on a written agreement. Try telling your landlord that you just want to rent month-to-month, or the finance company for your car that "you just don't want it anymore." It doesn't work.

If you are going into business, you can do this: Either get a contract from another school whom you trust, or join up with a tuition billing company (which I suggest) and they will supply you with contracts and manage your tuition payments, deal with students who try to get out of their agreements, etc.

I think Member Solutions is the best company, better than U.P., EFC (the two other main companies out there) I've been a client of theirs for 12 years. They do a great job at a very reasonable fee. www.membersolutions.com (http://www.membersolutions.com)Tell them I referred you. They don't give me anything, but I might get a bigger piece of cake at their next client party...

Good Luck.

[Fu-Pow]

Question for Sifu Michael regarding the rotating curriculum:

I'm still a little confused on how this should work. However, I am starting my own class through the local University and I think that scheme might work really well for what we are doing. I haven't finalized the curriculum yet so I might still have time to incorporate a rotating curriculum.

Basically when people sign up for our class they are signing up for 1 section which = one month of classes. We then will open 2 additional sections per quarter. This means that we essentially could have 3 "cycles" per 3 month quarter.

It seems like a rotating curriculum would make a lot of sense for us because if someone wants to join when we are in the second "cycle" of the quarter if we had to go back and teach those students everything from cycle one it would be a nightmare. But that's how my Sifu does it and it makes for some really irritating classes at his school where we have total novices slowing down the class.

Our curriculum is largely based on forms. The first level of the curriculum is based on 4 "basic" forms which are all fairly equal in difficulty. 1,2,3 are quite different. The fourth form incorporates the first 3. So I'm wondering if in the first cycle we could work on basic 1 and 2, 2nd cycle would be basic 3, Third cycle would be basic 4. So on and so forth. We have other non-form based requirements but they could be worked in much the same way.

Question: Our basic 4 hand form is quite a bit more difficult than the basic 1 and 2, for the reason that incorporates the first 3 basic hand forms. If somebody joins in the 3rd cycle when we are working on Basic 4 would they start on basic 4 and then in subsequent cycles go back and pick up the easier beginner forms?

Do I have this concept down correctly? It seems like depending on which cycle the student starts in the learning curve is going to be of varying steepness. But not so steep that they can't keep up.

Thanks

FP

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Fu Pow..PM me and I'll give you my cell. You have the basic concept..but is still a bit more involved. Since we speal the same language (CLF) it'll be very easy to explain the details.