Full Contact Wing Chun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[XINDU]

url]http://www.meihua.ee/video/fights_november_2004.wmv[/url] (big 34mb)
http://www.meihua.ee/video/koong-sao-may.wmv (8 mb)
http://www.meihua.ee/video/wt_udar.wmv (7 mb)
http://www.meihua.ee/video/koong-sao-tournament.wmv (6 mb)These seem better than any other wing chun fight videos no prearranged drills here.
We train like this here in Detroit can't find any other Wing Chun school in mich. that trains realistic. We also invite other styles to spar with, plenty of full contact karate schools here. I will be posting some full contact fights from our school against TKD.

[Mortal1]

I would rather see lighter contact and more technique. From what I could see these guys are just brawling. By brawling I mean random lefts and rights in a row with many of them missing. To get their techniques to a higher level they should work a little lighter until techniques are developed. Then go harder.

I respect the fact that they are throwing hard. But that is all they are doing. I didn't see one instance when there was a somewhat recognizable wing chun technique. Just wild punches and kicks with no set up.

These clips have been around for a while. They are better then all the other wingchun clips I have seen. But you need to mix intensity with technique.

[XINDU]

You can have the greatest tecnique, but in a real fight thats what it look like take a look at some full contact k-1 fight they are not perfect techniques.

[Mortal1]

With all due respect I know what a real fight looks and feels like very well. The only reason why some real fights would look like the video clip is that the people fighting are usually untrained.

I have seen many K-1 bouts. I enjoy them a great deal. K-1 looked nothing like the brawling in those videos. In k-1 they use techniques that are set up and tested over time. They look for openings. They throw combinations to different areas. Every punch isn't a comitted strike. Or just a left, right, left with out thinking. They conserve their energy until the right time then they explode.

I guess my point is these guys are headed in the right direction. If I were ever in the area I would drop by to spar anyway. But they need to slow down to develop actual technique. Otherwise they are just brawling in my eyes. Yes that alone makes them better then most wingchun people. The key word being most.

[eadragon21]

I've actually seen these clips before. I think they're pretty decent actually. Where some may say there's not a lot of technique, I would agree to a point. However, I think the clips demonstrate very well the brutal nature of wing chun fighting. I mean, did you see the stomping of the guy on the ground, and imagine if they didn't have protection.

A fight happens so quickly, if you have the opportunity to deflect or redirect an incoming force and throw something back, I think Wing Chun has accomplished its goal. Sometimes you may pull off a perfect technique, sometimes you may just have good timing. I'm sure I've been able to execute a perfect pak sao/chuen sao against a jab, and I'm sure I've also attempted the same technique that looked like some sort of poor sumo wrestling. One technique I saw on the ground(rear choke I believe) looked good enough to get the guy to tap out! Look at chi sao for example, you don't always see perfect technique(bon sao, tan sao, fook sau etc etc) there but you do see blindingly fast attacks when there's an opening. Just my thoughts.

Thanks for the clips Xindu!

[Thaegen]

No, I would say the persons there are doing WC for maybe 6months. Put two untrained against each other and they will fight the same way.

The fighting spirit is there only the WT/WC is missing

[XINDU]

No, I would say the persons there are doing WC for maybe 6months. Put two untrained against each other and they will fight the same way.

The fighting spirit is there only the WT/WC is missing
Yea you are right where are all these Wing Chun master's students full contact videos so everybody can see what good wing chun is.

[kungfu cowboy]

Didn't watch the videos, so not directly commenting on them, but: In general: If you are going to just fight like some pathetic, poor drunken slob; why bother "training"?

[XINDU]

Kung Fu cowboys lets see your skilled full contact videos

[kj]

Kung Fu cowboys lets see your skilled full contact videos


LOL. With all due respect Xindu, by the cumulative nature of your posts it looks like you need a soapbox to stand on. Oops ... nevermind ... guess you found one. :D

Regards,
- kj

[kungfu cowboy]

I unfortunately cannot return to the astral plane to retrieve them. (Expired permit)

[martyg]

Not to justify the flame baiting going on (what is it with Michigan people? Phil, you guys got something in the water over there? ;) ), but since I already shared this on two of the mailing lists I might as well share it here as well to contribute another take on "full contact" fighting to the thread -

These are a few clips I converted over from dvd footage of my student's fight at the Milwaukee Rumble this past February. Full contact amateur "tough man" competition. Three one minute rounds, 45 seconds rest in between each round. Kicks and punches allowed, though not to the legs. Yes, those are giant 16oz. gloves on their hands. Consequently, I worked on him expressing the different energies (pak, tan, fuk, gum, etc.) via a fist shape. I'm including explinations of
each clip.

http://www.hanweionline.org/wingchun/tyroneknockdown1.mpg
Opening exchange, opponent tries to kick with a lead leg 45 degree kick (Thai type) up in Ty's ribs. Tyrone gum's and overextends his opponent's kick (kick never get's near him) then proceeds to knock him down.

http://www.hanweionline.org/wingchun/tyroneknockdown2.mpg
Tyrone enters in quick with a pak to his opponent's guard to draw a reaction, opponent tries to stiff arm and then hit Ty. Tyrone knocks him throught he ropes. Most of the fight was like this, which is why I broke it down to the videos you see here.


http://www.hanweionline.org/wingchun/tyroneknockdown3.mpg
Opponent comes in with a lunging front kick, Tyrone stop hits it. Tyrone continues in, opponent tries to return the favor with a stop hit. Tyrone sweeps it to the side with a gaun sao followed by a punch with the same hand to try and intercept his opponent's offbalanced attempt at a hook. Then Ty lops the opponent's arm with his punching arm to keep it extended while he hammers over the top (lop da). More punching exchanges and the opponent goes through the ropes again.

http://www.hanweionline.org/wingchun/tyroneknockdown4.mpg
Opponent tries to punch, Tyrone angle steps forward to slip it and proceeds to wrap his arm over the punching arm from underneath (lan) while hitting the opponent in the face with a punch (which is obscured in the camera angle). Uses gum at the opponent's right elbow with a short power punch to the head that winds up turning his opponent and doubling him in to the ropes. You have to slow it down to see everything, otherwise it happens so fast and looks like Ty is just shoving him at the head and turning him.


http://www.hanweionline.org/wingchun/tyroneknockdown5.mpg
Opponent tries another 45 degree kick, Tyrone gauns it to the side again. Tyrone moves in for a punch but the opponent tries a hook over the top of it. Tyrone converts the punch in to a bong sao and sends the punch sweeping past him offbalancing the opponent. Tyrone then suddenly changes direction and darts in pinning with the bong and a gum and sends the opponent flying. He got boo'd for this by the crowd.

http://www.hanweionline.org/wingchun/tyroneknockout.mpg
This is the knockout, which was with all things - a kick. Occured half way through the 2nd round. Opponent closes in looking to hit up top which turns out to be a fake as he goes to Ty's midsection. Tyrone intercepts with a stop hit to his hip which sends the opponent stumbling back. Opponent recovers, comes in with a big windup front kick with his back leg. Tyrone stop hits this with a short side kick (for those of you who were wondering one way to use your side kick from chum kiu). Opponent proceeds to start a hook (he said after the fight to Tyrone that he saw Ty's guard down - which it was - so he was going to go for it). Tyrone does a short power front kick (the kickboxing guys running the corners thought it was a "foot jab") to the opponent's ribs. That's it, the opponent goes down for the count and
can't get back up.

The video footage did play on several different windows computers I tried it on, though I did have a problem with my fiance's iMac playing it. It's DVD quality footage (I didn't sample it down), so some of them are around 9 megs.

[XINDU]

Good videos watchful, gloves are to big but thats how you have to learn last clip kick to mid section need more sit-ups other than that very nice.

[Liddel]

XINDU - nice vids, good to see. They are quite commited to training given that the fight continued even after one fighter had his foot caught in the ropes....very practical, you never know what could happen
Loving the elbows... :)

However i agree with the "tame it down for more skill" approach ALSO to complement this kind of practice in one's training.
I mean some people like yourself perscribe to the "You can have the greatest tecnique, but in a real fight thats what it looks like" and to some degree you are correct.
But IMHO you should at least see a hint of a VT action like Pak Sao or even a Bong Sao somewhere in there if they were competent at using VT.

[XINDU]

XINDU - nice vids, good to see. They are quite commited to training given that the fight continued even after one fighter had his foot caught in the ropes....very practical, you never know what could happen
Loving the elbows... :)

However i agree with the "tame it down for more skill" approach ALSO to complement this kind of practice in one's training.
I mean some people like yourself perscribe to the "You can have the greatest tecnique, but in a real fight thats what it looks like" and to some degree you are correct.
But IMHO you should at least see a hint of a VT action like Pak Sao or even a Bong Sao somewhere in there if they were competent at using VT.
I have watched some Wing Chun fighters over the years and have really never seen anyone able to pull off Pak sau ect.. Try and pak sau or trap a good boxers hands. Sometimes I feel that is why no representative from wing chun schools show any full contact videos because alot of what has been taught is very hard to pull off against modern skilled fighters.

[XINDU]

Another thing I have noticed when a Wing Chun guy loses in competitions UFC ect.. Their own people disown them saying he is no rep of Wing Chun but If they won oh! he is our man go figure>

[anerlich]

Another thing I have noticed when a Wing Chun guy loses in competitions UFC ect.. Their own people disown them saying he is no rep of Wing Chun but If they won oh! he is our man

Ten years ago called and asked for its post back.

[ReignOfTerror]

it's funny how they and many other tma styles steal techniques form bjj and call it wing chun or whateevr, and when they fight mma and win they give credit to their tma even though they won with mma.

[ReignOfTerror]

I have watched some Wing Chun fighters over the years and have really never seen anyone able to pull off Pak sau ect.. Try and pak sau or trap a good boxers hands. Sometimes I feel that is why no representative from wing chun schools show any full contact videos because alot of what has been taught is very hard to pull off against modern skilled fighters.

that's because the style like every other tma is inferior technique, strategy, etc. wise to mma type of styles. No matter how a wing chun fighter trains a mt fighter trianing the same ammount of time will win and will fight how he trains. By the way I have seen some good wing chun in movies.

actually what you people don't realize is slipping punches, parrying, etc. (what boxers/kickboxers do) is at least as hard it is to do the wing chun blocks:
http://www.wingchun.org/viewpt/one/2/vp1-2n.html

the only difference is the latter are conditioned to take those punches better and practise more realistically and harder generally.

[Jam_master]

I have watched some Wing Chun fighters over the years and have really never seen anyone able to pull off Pak sau ect.. Try and pak sau or trap a good boxers hands. Sometimes I feel that is why no representative from wing chun schools show any full contact videos because alot of what has been taught is very hard to pull off against modern skilled fighters.


I think if you try doing pak sao to a fighter like you would in class, your always going to be disappointed. :eek:

In most class exercise you would (normally) try to pak with one hand and punch with the other at the same time. ANd it works in excercise because your partner is either stationary or charging in without stepping back, which is unlike most real world fighting situations.

Pak saoing like that is not going to work if you still need to bridge the gap, and against a fast jab with a subsequent retreat, nor against a one two punch combo. In such case if you use a lead pak sao to parry the first punch, you will almost aways have to follow through, with the same pak saoing hand, with both a half step in right away, and with either a straight punch, or a bil sao, or tan sao to cover, soon after. And depending on your foot position (Parallel or opposite) you will either use your rear hand to check and cover or punch while your lead hand is covering. But all in all, the key is in the footwork! All to often I see wing chunners and most fighters alike moving back, thus losing or depriving the full effectiveness of their techniques. Forgetting that hand position and where you stand is part of that techniques success! :)

[ReignOfTerror]

so what kind of defense do you suggest against a jab?

[Jam_master]

I know I'm going to get alot of flak for this, but in my personal opinion, and you can take it or leave it, I don't care, but I feel that there is so much midiocrity and public acceptance to the point where almost 90-95 percent I dare say believe that what they see on MMA or BJJ or K-1 is what real fighting proficiency is all about, all because most people personally can't see themselves fighting too beyond the level they see thier so called champion martial art heroe's themselves fight, and I believe this is not the best, especially true of most wing chunners who think this is the best even a wing chunner can do when they compete in these things. I think everyone settles quickly to believing that this is the best anyone can do in any given fight(MMA and BJJ included). If you get at least one teachnique in (usually by luck) and win the fight, hoooO your an expert and a martial artist, but yet no one ever comments really on how lucky he really just was because the other guy quite often was either careless or just plain worst than he was or he just couldn't keep up. Endurance for the lack of tecknique plays a key role in almost all fights where lack of true abilty barely exist.

If anything it's just staight up street brawl with a slight step up in my opinion because they do use some general and easily adoptable techniques such as simple timing, broken rhythm, fakes, speed, tempo changes, cadence, endurance training, strength and anything else most prize fighters and a good street fighter with any sense can use to help them. And oh yes! there are some other added bonus techniques like take downs and grappling, if you know any, but as far as seeing someone looking like a martial artist, you can forget about it. I don't see much evidence of that! The majority of fighters I see still lack total commitment to their techniques, most draw back when they could or should be stepping in, but they don't because I believe they really don't know what to do in a tight cicumstance like during the huddle where one's hands often get lost due to lack of sensitivity and not enought preperation. Also, there is hardly enough follow through, or hand technique, and/or quick change ups or redirection and quick recovery. In short, no skill! The "art" in "martial art" has gone out the window.

If your a good wing chunner, and the operative word here is being "good"! you'll know what to do from every possible possition and angle your in. So you would take advantage at every step of the way of your contact. If your apponent counters, you should always have a subsequent counter or quick follow up or change for that and anything else, without ever having to step back. You should know and be able to feel and foresee your opponents actions right away and before he's even aware of it.

When you know what your doing, the fight shouldn't be unpredictable as most people would have you believe you can't control that when in fact you can be in control all the way, limiting your opponents variables as much as possible, and predicticting his every possible move based on what you do!

There's still room for real achievement folks! Honestly I'm not quite there yet myself, but I know it can be done. :D Keep practicing, and don't settle for less that perfect! :D

[ReignOfTerror]

so do you think it's possible to attain the fighting ability displayed in shaw brother movies such as warriors two and prodigal son where one is virtually unhittable and lightning fast with super reflexes?

there is generally alot higher level of technique and stnadup tactics in k1 and boxing than mma. but than there is cro cop.

[Stevo]

that's because the style like every other tma is inferior technique, strategy, etc. wise to mma type of styles. No matter how a wing chun fighter trains a mt fighter trianing the same ammount of time will win and will fight how he trains. By the way I have seen some good wing chun in movies.

actually what you people don't realize is slipping punches, parrying, etc. (what boxers/kickboxers do) is at least as hard it is to do the wing chun blocks:
http://www.wingchun.org/viewpt/one/2/vp1-2n.html

the only difference is the latter are conditioned to take those punches better and practise more realistically and harder generally.


I doubt you've seen good Wing Chun in movies.

[Mr Punch]

so what kind of defense do you suggest against a jab?There are a lot of things you can do...

keeping on the offensive yourself;

body work (moving you head a lot, dodging and weaving... v v unpopular I think in WC, but fits nicely at biu jee stage); but among other things...

of course a pak can work!!! If you're standing there static and trying to stop the jab completely, you'll probably miss it and get nailed, or hit it and hurt your wrist... but the pak da is so similar to a standard boxing parry, slip, straight if you think for some reason that boxers have the answer and chunners don't you haven't met any good chunners!

In terms of rhythm and timing, eating/dodging the first jab or two and following their hand back to hit their openings works too. If you have some experience of getting punched in the head that is! :D

[Mr Punch]

Try and pak sau or trap a good boxers hands.Oh, I see. You don't know what a pak sao is!

A pak sao is not a trap. It is not a block.

A pak sao is a strike. It is practised as a parry: that is not the same as a block, a block's purpose is to stop the incoming strike (which I believe very often doesn't work) and sometimes to attack the striking arm.

My purpose with a pak sao is to strike. If I hit their arm, I want to inflict damage on their arm which will weaken their muscles and their ability to hit me with that arm again. Their is nothing mysterious about this. It's the same principle as a Thai boxer using a kick to the thigh. If he's lucky it'll take the guy down and finish the fight, otherwise, and usually, he'll just repeatedly attack the same spot and progressively weaken the leg and its ability to attack effectively.

However, if I don't hit their arm (maybe I've misjudged it and they've hit me or something) I want my pak to hit the centre of their mass, ie, any of the targets that'll disrupt their balance, knock them out or otherwise **** on their bonfires.

If I make contact with their retreating arm, I can't hit their centre, so rather than wasting time disengaging or going around their arm, I use the direction their arm is going in to trap it in a position that makes it awkward for them to hit me and preferably breaks their balance enough for me to sweep them etc, and hit them with my other hand. A trap is usually a happy bit of luck and circumstance, though of course, if they don't know what the hell I'm doing I can sometimes set it up (although that is often strategically not as useful as a more direct approach).

So in summary, my objectives with a pak are (in order of importance and opportunity):

1) strike their body/head;
2) strike their arm;
3) same as (1);
4) trap their arm.

[Mr Punch]

I agree with Liddel and Mortal about the quality of the vids.

Except I'm not so charitable. Anybody who uses so many chain punches when they're obviously not working deserves the **** kicking out of them!

BTW Marty, I'm on Windows 2000 but for some reason I can't see your vids. Any suggestions?

[martyg]

I agree with Liddel and Mortal about the quality of the vids.

Except I'm not so charitable. Anybody who uses so many chain punches when they're obviously not working deserves the **** kicking out of them!

BTW Marty, I'm on Windows 2000 but for some reason I can't see your vids. Any suggestions?

Mat -

Rick click and download them to your drive, load in windows media player and if you don't have the right codec then it will ask to download it for you.

Otherwise, any program that can play dvd's (or dvd files) will work.

[Liddel]

Xindu says
"I have watched some Wing Chun fighters over the years and have really never seen anyone able to pull off Pak sau ect.. "

But really this is irrelevant because in the vids you supplied, they never seem to even 'attempt' any of these actions mentioned, sucessful or not (not that i saw, can someone correct me i may be wrong ?) so even if i agree with you, your point is moot.

However you raise a good point in your post, subsequently ive dropped all Pak Sao from my VT. ????
[ joking :) ]

[ReignOfTerror]

but since I already shared this on two of the mailing lists I might as well share it here as well to contribute another take on "full contact" fighting to the thread -

These are a few clips I converted over from dvd footage of my student's fight at the Milwaukee Rumble this past February. Full contact amateur "tough man" competition. Three one minute rounds, 45 seconds rest in between each round. Kicks and punches allowed, though not to the legs. Yes, those are giant 16oz. gloves on their hands. Consequently, I worked on him expressing the different energies (pak, tan, fuk, gum, etc.) via a fist shape. I'm including explinations of
each clip.

http://www.hanweionline.org/wingchun/tyroneknockdown1.mpg
Opening exchange, opponent tries to kick with a lead leg 45 degree kick (Thai type) up in Ty's ribs. Tyrone gum's and overextends his opponent's kick (kick never get's near him) then proceeds to knock him down.

http://www.hanweionline.org/wingchun/tyroneknockdown2.mpg
Tyrone enters in quick with a pak to his opponent's guard to draw a reaction, opponent tries to stiff arm and then hit Ty. Tyrone knocks him throught he ropes. Most of the fight was like this, which is why I broke it down to the videos you see here.


http://www.hanweionline.org/wingchun/tyroneknockdown3.mpg
Opponent comes in with a lunging front kick, Tyrone stop hits it. Tyrone continues in, opponent tries to return the favor with a stop hit. Tyrone sweeps it to the side with a gaun sao followed by a punch with the same hand to try and intercept his opponent's offbalanced attempt at a hook. Then Ty lops the opponent's arm with his punching arm to keep it extended while he hammers over the top (lop da). More punching exchanges and the opponent goes through the ropes again.

http://www.hanweionline.org/wingchun/tyroneknockdown4.mpg
Opponent tries to punch, Tyrone angle steps forward to slip it and proceeds to wrap his arm over the punching arm from underneath (lan) while hitting the opponent in the face with a punch (which is obscured in the camera angle). Uses gum at the opponent's right elbow with a short power punch to the head that winds up turning his opponent and doubling him in to the ropes. You have to slow it down to see everything, otherwise it happens so fast and looks like Ty is just shoving him at the head and turning him.


http://www.hanweionline.org/wingchun/tyroneknockdown5.mpg
Opponent tries another 45 degree kick, Tyrone gauns it to the side again. Tyrone moves in for a punch but the opponent tries a hook over the top of it. Tyrone converts the punch in to a bong sao and sends the punch sweeping past him offbalancing the opponent. Tyrone then suddenly changes direction and darts in pinning with the bong and a gum and sends the opponent flying. He got boo'd for this by the crowd.

http://www.hanweionline.org/wingchun/tyroneknockout.mpg
This is the knockout, which was with all things - a kick. Occured half way through the 2nd round. Opponent closes in looking to hit up top which turns out to be a fake as he goes to Ty's midsection. Tyrone intercepts with a stop hit to his hip which sends the opponent stumbling back. Opponent recovers, comes in with a big windup front kick with his back leg. Tyrone stop hits this with a short side kick (for those of you who were wondering one way to use your side kick from chum kiu). Opponent proceeds to start a hook (he said after the fight to Tyrone that he saw Ty's guard down - which it was - so he was going to go for it). Tyrone does a short power front kick (the kickboxing guys running the corners thought it was a "foot jab") to the opponent's ribs. That's it, the opponent goes down for the count and
can't get back up.

The video footage did play on several different windows computers I tried it on, though I did have a problem with my fiance's iMac playing it. It's DVD quality footage (I didn't sample it down), so some of them are around 9 megs.


hahaha, i love how you try to put some technical names to this completely untechnical brawl. that looks like 2 guys who have never fought before in their lives, seeing how he didn't use a single WC technique

if you didn't write what he did, i wouldn't know. looks like he just did a lot of messy swinging.

all that shows is instinct > trained in a traditional MA. i know those fights are TMA b/c they allow kicks w/ no shin pads, so i know that's not an amateur kickboxing nor am boxing.

Why didn't he fight someone that could actually fight, that wouldn't fall over at every roundhouse thrown, or just ran away every time they almost got hit......

[anerlich]

When you know what your doing, the fight shouldn't be unpredictable as most people would have you believe you can't control that when in fact you can be in control all the way, limiting your opponents variables as much as possible, and predicticting his every possible move based on what you do!

You don't spar much, huh?

Reality is rather different from what you are discussing above. It would be nice if things worked the way you want them to, but they don't.

If the fight isn't unpredictable, then how did you fail to avoid it in the first place?

[Fajing]

Wow, that doesn't look like Wing Chun. Those guys should definitely train more. They look like furious 1st graders. :confused:

[Fajing]

Where did those 3 videos come from?

[lawrenceofidaho]

When you know what your doing, the fight shouldn't be unpredictable as most people would have you believe you can't control that when in fact you can be in control all the way, limiting your opponents variables as much as possible, and predicticting his every possible move based on what you do!
This will only happen if your opponent is poorly conditioned (or much smaller), has very little training, and is fighting in a tentative (non-aggressive) manner.

Anyone in decent shape that has a year (or more) of training in an art / combat sport which spars (with medium-high intensity, -not "point-sparring") will be dangerous in a fight and difficult to control (until they get hurt, -which will not be so easy because they are conditioned to take some pain & punishment.)

-Lawrence

[Mr Punch]

and predicticting his every possible move based on what you do!LOL at Harry F'king Potter here! :D

[martyg]

hahaha, i love how you try to put some technical names to this completely untechnical brawl. that looks like 2 guys who have never fought before in their lives, seeing how he didn't use a single WC technique


You're welcome to your opinion. Judging by all the threads you've posted on looking at your nick, it looks like you have a lot of opinions to share and even more people that don't care to hear them or put much stock in them.

And judging by the fact Sihing73 edited you post, you must have had some other even less relevant flamebait to post.

Stick to the "Chan Tai San stories" thread, they seem to be enjoying you more there.

All the interactions I mentioned were there. 'Nuff said.






all that shows is instinct > trained in a traditional MA. i know those fights are TMA b/c they allow kicks w/ no shin pads, so i know that's not an amateur kickboxing nor am boxing.




You'd be wrong again there as well. The video was taken at the Milwaukee Rumble as mentioned. A full contact amateur kickboxing "tough man" competition.
http://www.milwaukeerumble.com/

[whitefox]

I have watched some Wing Chun fighters over the years and have really never seen anyone able to pull off Pak sau ect.. Try and pak sau or trap a good boxers hands. Sometimes I feel that is why no representative from wing chun schools show any full contact videos because alot of what has been taught is very hard to pull off against modern skilled fighters.


Well since you know it all why don't you put up your videos so we can all be taught the proper way to do wing chun. :eek: