Realistic Training

[XINDU]

Several times over the past couple of weeks I've check out a yahoo martial arts chatroom. I have been very suprised at what I have been reading there. It is full of people who are traditional martial artists. I'm not saying that is bad in and of itself. When they ask me what I train, I just say MMA/ NHB. Usually they ask what that is, and I have to explain it to them. I explain that I crosstrain in several martial styles, but instead of being loyal to a certain style, person, or system, I really only care about what really works in all ranges of combat against a fully resisting opponent. I tell them that I test this by fighting in my training, and competing and NHB events. Most of them havent heard of NHB, so I say it's like the Ultimate Fighting Championship they have seen on TV.

I would imagine that this is a simple idea that wouldnt involve much debate. The idea that you have to fight in your training to actually be able to fight well. Well, I run into great disagreement. There must have been at least a dozen "Martial Artists" tell me that NHB is not realistic, so they dont do it. They say their techniques are too deadly for a competition or to even train them against resistance. I've heard things such as "against a groundfighter I would just bite him and rip his nuts off". I told them that by merely ellimating a few things, like biting, eyegouging, and attacking the groin, we are able to still realistically test what really works in all ranges of combat. I have been preached to about the benifits of forms, katas, and not doing any sparring until you are "4th dan".

I have learned something from them though. Not everyone is into the martial arts to learn how to realistically fight in all ranges of combat. I have had to accept that. Judging by the people in that chat room that I've been in, most of them have never even thought about fighting in all ranges of combat. They are into chi, and claim they have very deadly techniques that they cant practice. I've asked them what they would do if someone was sitting on their chest, and I've heard things such as "I'd just knock them out before they got me there". Well, what could I say to such wisdom?

I tried to explain the idea of training with submissions and tapping out; but I ran into more interesting responces. They said they dont tap out in training. Their techniques dont allow for it... they just break stuff immediatly. I asked how they were able to train that way, and they said through katas. Just so you know, must of them were into TKD, kung fu, and lots of different Chinese sounding arts.
I'm really not trying to put down any traditional martial arts. I truly believe that every martial art has some positive things to offer. However I also believe that no individual style or system is completely well rounded in all ranges of combat; thus the need to crosstrain. It seems to me that a person is going to be relatively tough and competent in all ranges of combat if they simply train realistically, even if they havent had any instruction in it. Take 2 brothers that grew up fist fighting each other in their backyard on a regular basis. They are gonna be some tough dudes, I dont care if they never officially studied martial arts in some school. One interpretation of "Martial" is "Combat", and they have been combating each other regurly. The same can be applied to someone that has studied a traditional martial style. If they have gone beyond those techniques and actually done a lot of actual fighting, then they are still going to be a pretty competent fighter.

Sorry for the long-windedness, but here's my point. It seems like the great divide between traditional martial artists that study one style or system of combat, and Mixed Martial Artists, is that typically the traditionalists do not engage in realistic training. They dont actually fight each other in their training. They dont kickbox, strike from the clinch, throw/ takedown, and go to submissions against a training partner that is trying to do the exact same thing. They dont ever get bruised or bloody in their training. They also seem to take great offence to this idea being somehow better at preparing them for combat.

[Chief Fox]

Do you think that you may have slightly overgeneralized your point?

It would be like me saying that all MMA fighters have ADD because they can't focus or commit to one art. Or all MMA fighters are gay because they like to roll around on the ground with one another.

You need to consider the mind set and motivation of different people.
I would guess that a MMA fighter is someone who considers themselves to be a good fighter and wants to test their skills against other fighters. To do this they fight a lot and train in several different disciplines to improve their skill sets. Jack of all trades sort of thing.

A traditional martial artist (whatever that is), may have several reasons for taking up a martial art and only one of those things is to become a better fighter. For example, some people might just want to get in shape or become more flexible. Some people might have an interest in far east philosophy, part of which is making your body strong and learning to fight. Some people may just like Kung Fu movies and want to learn how to do that stuff. Some people maybe like learning all the forms and then seeing how they can extract that information and applying it in a combat situation.

I find it bizare that you would come to a Kung Fu disscussion board, overgeneralize on what you think "tradional martial arts" are and then talk about how "realistic" you think your style of fighting is. The truth is, you have a completely different mind set then most of the people here. So why don't you go to some MMA discussion board and impress everyone with your wisdom there.

[Brad]

Also, I think if you're going to bash people on another chat room or forum you should at least post a link ;) Just because something is "Chinese sounding" doesn't make it a traditional martial art... and generalizing is kind of dumb. Should all the people who practice Liu Yun Qiao's baji style be attacked because someone from Freds school of magic duck kungfu is talking out of his @ss? China has produced hundreds of different systems of training, some as different as jujitsu and tae kwon do. Some arts were derived from military, some from farmers, some from cult leaders, etc. Waaaaaay too much diversity to be lumping everyone in together.

[XINDU]

Also, I think if you're going to bash people on another chat room or forum you should at least post a link ;) Just because something is "Chinese sounding" doesn't make it a traditional martial art... and generalizing is kind of dumb. Should all the people who practice Liu Yun Qiao's baji style be attacked because someone from Freds school of magic duck kungfu is talking out of his @ss? China has produced hundreds of different systems of training, some as different as jujitsu and tae kwon do. Some arts were derived from military, some from farmers, some from cult leaders, etc. Waaaaaay too much diversity to be lumping everyone in together.
Jist my opinion

[kungfu cowboy]

Absolutely agree, Xindu. If you are learning an art to fight: then at some point you must fight.

[ReignOfTerror]

this guy copy and pasted this post from a mma.tv thread with exactly the same writing, or the guy on mma.tc did, or its the same guy but what is he doing on a wing chun forum?

[Thaegen]

You can't be good at fighting if you don't fight. And you aren't a good fighter when you fight full the first time. Maybe after much pain you are going to be good at fighting. But you have to do it, if you don't you aren't in my opinion a Martial Artist, you are a dancer.

[ReignOfTerror]

training in one style doesnt define a traditional martial artist. A guy who trains a bunch of kung fu styles or a mix of a bunch of styles can still be considered a tma. tma are basically all ortiental styles beside muay thai, someone who only trains in oriental styles be it mroe than one is still a tma. Only sport styles are condiered mma, and plenty of people train in only one sport art rather than all, only a small number of people that train in these styles train for mma.

[ReignOfTerror]

You can't be good at fighting if you don't fight. And you aren't a good fighter when you fight full the first time. Maybe after much pain you are going to be good at fighting. But you have to do it, if you don't you aren't in my opinion a Martial Artist, you are a dancer.

actually you dont have to fight to be good at fighting. there are plenty of natural born kilelrs on this planet who never fight but once they do (if they are ****ed off enough) they always win.

[XINDU]

actually you dont have to fight to be good at fighting. there are plenty of natural born kilelrs on this planet who never fight but once they do (if they are ****ed off enough) they always win.
I had to sit back and think on this and you are right there are people out there that have probaly only fought once and awhile and are killers, hit men, nut jobs,
serial killers ect..... If someone truly wants to get to you they can if they know what they are doing you are history, nobody is unstoppable, I `think alot of martial artist watch too many movies. My opinion when it comes to training if you don,t fight against someone who does fight during training I put my money on the true fighter.

[ReignOfTerror]

I had to sit back and think on this and you are right there are people out there that have probaly only fought once and awhile and are killers, hit men, nut jobs,
serial killers ect..... If someone truly wants to get to you they can if they know what they are doing you are history, nobody is unstoppable, I `think alot of martial artist watch too many movies. My opinion when it comes to training if you don,t fight against someone who does fight during training I put my money on the true fighter.

but some people are truly determined and agressive and have increidble strengh + size so even if you train that way yous till could lose to someone like that. Hell their pure agression and violence could make you freeze.

[kungfu cowboy]

Ha! those types! Give them a piece of candy, and a pinch on the cheek! Problem solved.

[Thaegen]

Ofcourse there are persons who have it just in them to fight, natural born killers like you like to say it...

BUT this has to be an extra motivation to train. It's not because there are better, stronger persons in the world that "you" don't have to train and be so good as you can.

This is what they call "motivation"

[XINDU]

but some people are truly determined and agressive and have increidble strengh + size so even if you train that way yous till could lose to someone like that. Hell their pure agression and violence could make you freeze.
how true during the toughman contest the people who won most of the fights were street brawlers they beat most of the trained martial artist with ease. cause most MA's never took a real hard hit.

[ReignOfTerror]

tank abbot is such an example in the early part of his career. shure he had boxing experience from back in the day but most likely he forgot it and never was much at it so he basically fought like a regular untrained person, and he could hit like a brick and knock most people out, whether trained or untrained. Look at kimbo for instance.

[Scott R. Brown]

Xindu,

What are you doing writing the same question in all the different sections of this BB? You asked this same question under a different title in the “Related Arts” section!!

Below was my response on that thread! Why don’t respond to it and I will be happy to discuss it further with you. The point is everything has its limits! And no matter how well prepared you think you are, there is always someone, somewhere, sometime who can do you in!!


I agree there is a certain amount of fantasy involved with many who practice martial arts. One of the fantasies is the efficacy of mixed martial arts. It is predicated upon an assumption of how we “think” a “real life” encounter will occur. The marketing of mixed martial arts is predicated upon a narrow set of circumstances and ignores many possible scenarios just like any other art preceding the 90’s. It may account for a wider variety of circumstances, but it is still limited. It is one thing to have to fight one person, and another to have to fight many, and another to have to fight many with baseball bats and yet another to have to fight someone who has just come up behind you and brained you with a claw hammer! Or a home invasion with a shot gun.

The only true test of any MA is when our life is on the line. Anything else is a limited circumstance. Even NHB competitions have rules. No biting, eye gouging, finger breaking, groin kicking!! One of the first things I would do in a real life or death encounter is drive my # 2 pencil or Papermate pen into my assailants eye or throat. Now I have just neutralized his 10 or 15 years of mixed marital arts training!!! If he wants to take me down? I will be happy to drive my # 2 pencil or my pocket knife blade into his cervical spine or his kidney, or maybe I will just slit his throat. There goes his 15-20 years of mixed marital arts training!! His advanced training has just provided me with the opportunity I needed. He fell into my trap! Which was, “Please take me down!!! I don’t know what I am doing!!!” I merely prepared for the weakness in his attack and it didn’t take me 10-20 years of learning fancy moves to defeat him. I learned it just this second when I thought it up!!

It isn’t always who has the most training in real life. It is who is willing to be the most brutal first!!!

Years ago I went to high school with a guy who did just that. He crashed a high school party in a neighboring town. He was called out into the front yard by some big football player. While the footballer was busy posturing, pushing and mouthing off, the guy took out a straight razor and slit the footballer’s throat. Now he is dead!!! He is dead because he was messing with a guy who was willing to be more brutal than he was and didn’t care what the consequences were!!!

I have a friend who is a master of combat shooting! He is ranked a master in internationally sanctioned competition!! He can draw and shoot me dead before I can get close enough to him to do anything!! There is pepper spray and tasers, and baseball bat-fu and the well proven O.J. Simpson-Fu (Hide in the bushes with a big knife!!!)!! Everything has a weakness! If a person is training to be invincible he is chasing moonbeams! Choose your method of training and have fun and be as well rounded as you want to be, but don’t confuse yourself into thinking that you can take anyone. A smart person, who wants to take you out, only needs to discover what you know and devise a way around it. That is all it takes!! It is called strategy and tactics!!! The best method is to just sneak up behind you and club you to death!! Surprise from behind is more effective than the most highly trained person. If you are not expecting it you are as good as dead. So train in your NHB, but know you are training for a duel, not real combat!!

[Liddel]

Scott you freaky dude, you just reached into my mind and said what i was thinking.
Nice post !
If Anyone's ever spoken to a cop they would agree with what you just said.

Drugs is the big problem in my country, My sparring partner told me about a call out one night with a dude on pure methamphetamine, when it got to the crunch he kicked the guy in the balls with steel cap boots and what do you know it just ****ed him off, sprayed him with pepper spray and smashed him in the legs with his batton, what do you know, just ****ed him off...hmmm where do we go from here ?
Ahh central...im gunna need backup ! :eek:
The fact is there is every possible senario and you never know what can happen or what everyday object you may come across like scott and his pencil !

Further to the TMA thing that was mentioned.... does anyone remember "Big Daddy's" first UFC fight.
On the fight card his style was " Kuk Soon Woo"...who ever heard of that ?
but 10 seconds (at the most into the fight) the grappler took him to the ground and bam between 8 and 9 elbows to the head....the poor guy was knocked out on the first one (probably a good thing that he didnt feel each proceding elbow until he awoke)

At the end of the day Xindu the people on the board you mention and this one even, represent a small amount of people world wide that practise a fighting art.
So dont let the view of the few, represent in your eyes the view of the many.

[Knifefighter]

One of the first things I would do in a real life or death encounter
is drive my # 2 pencil or Papermate pen into my assailants eye or throat. Now I have just neutralized his 10 or 15 years of
mixed marital arts training!!! If he wants to take me down? I will be happy to drive my # 2 pencil or my pocket knife blade into
his cervical spine or his kidney, or maybe I will just slit his throat.

One of the great things about MMA training is its ease of transfer to fighting in other scenarios such as the street where weapons or multiple opponents may be involved. A MMA fighter with some basic weapons training will understand that a simple clinch with double underhooks to a body slam or suplex to mount will make it virtually impossible for you to get that deadly #2 pencil from your pocket protector

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Knifefighter,

Your solution to the dilemma presumes certain things:

1) I am not prepared in anyway!
2) My pencil is in a pocket protector and not in my hand.
3) I am going to be standing in a manner that will allow for a simple or easy takedown.
4) I don’t know how to respond to a simple takedown.
5) I will not react when I perceive danger.
6) Takedowns, especially simple, ones are not simple to counter!!! THEY ARE!!!

We can change any scenario around in our minds to accommodate our fantasies. So I am happy to play. While you are taking me down with your simple clinch into a double pirouette flip, one of my friends, who is even more brutal than I am, comes up behind you and hamstrings you with a machete!! He is hiding in the bushes ready with it in his hand! And while your army of ninja MMA friends begin their attack my NAVY SEAL team with .50 caliber machine guns mows them down!!!

You have completely missed the points of my post! They are:

1) Unexpected things can and do happen!
2) Simple solutions are often better and quicker than complicated moves!
3) It is the individual who is willing to be the most brutal first that has the advantage!
4) Good strategy and tactics surpass fancy moves!!!

Guess how much training in the MA the guy with the straight razor had??? NONE!!!! Go head and clinch someone with a straight razor in his hand HIDDEN BEHIND HIS BACK!!!!! He will be turning you into jerky while you are playing pro wrestler with him!!

[Knifefighter]

Takedowns, especially simple, ones are not simple to counter!!! THEY ARE!!!

Simple takedowns are the hardest to counter when they have good set-ups.



Simple solutions are often better and quicker than complicated moves!

There’s not much simpler than a clinch with double underhooks to a takedown to a mount.



It is the individual who is willing to be the most brutal first that has the advantage!

The person who has the advantage is the one who gets ahead in the Observe, Orient, Decide, Act loop. You can be as brutal as you want, but if I’m already ahead of you in this loop you can’t bring your brutality into play.




Go head and clinch someone with a straight razor in his hand HIDDEN BEHIND HIS BACK

Clinching someone with a bladed weapon already drawn is not a good idea.. That’s when your own blade should come into play.

You are assuming that the majority of MMA fighters are only concerned with and only train for the ring and are not concerned with the contingencies that occur on the street. That’s a huge underestimation.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Knifefighter,

Your arguments makes some good points however, they only prove my point! They do not demonstrate them to be flawed. I can come up with responses to anything you suggest and you can come up with responses to mine!

It is over confidence that is the danger here! My thesis is that it is the unprepared for response or attack that will be the deadly one.

I am happy to keep going though just for the fun of it:

“Simple takedowns are the hardest to counter when they have good set-ups”

This presumes time and opportunity for a set-up and demonstrates over confidence in the efficiency of simple takedowns!

“There’s not much simpler than a clinch with double underhooks to a takedown to a mount.”

This presumes one can close and execute this more efficiently then other forms of attack: i.e. my acquaintances straight razor to the throat, a claw hammer to the back of the head, a stunner like pepper spray to the eyes followed immediately by a knife to the gut or throat or other vital area, shotgun blast to the knees…….etc!!!!!!

“The person who has the advantage is the one who gets ahead in the Observe, Orient, Decide, Act loop. You can be as brutal as you want, but if I’m already ahead of you in this loop you can’t bring your brutality into play.”

This presumes foreknowledge an attack is imminent!! If it is my purpose to take someone out I will not attack when he is prepared for it. It is called deception! Not all altercations start out with verbal and physical posturing.

“Clinching someone with a bladed weapon already drawn is not a good idea.. That’s when your own blade should come into play.”

This presumes you know he has a bladed weapon! Your pseudonym indicates you know something about knife fighting. If this is the case you know that a REAL knife fighter will cut you before you know he has the weapon. (Refer once again to my acquaintance from high school.) Thus you will not be able to use your weapon, unless you choose to be the first to go into the brutal zone and use your knife first!!

”You are assuming that the majority of MMA fighters are only concerned with and only train for the ring and are not concerned with the contingencies that occur on the street. That’s a huge underestimation.”

Your presumption of my assumption is incorrect!! And it is not my intention to poo poo MMA. It is to demonstrate that ALL fixed forms of fighting have limitations and the presumptions on which MMA are based make them just as flawed as every other form of fighting!! There are always flaws for which others will find a weakness! No form of fighting will render one invincible. Some are better under certain specific circumstances than others, but all can be circumvented and defeated. This whole idea of taking down your adversary can be very effective for one-on-one duels, but very dangerous when fighting more than one person or another experienced grappler. I know you will assert you would not take someone down under these circumstances, and of course this is good thinking, however there are scenarios where one might take down the adversary not anticipating the participation of onlookers. It is the over confidence of these individuals and the thought they cannot be suckered by deception that is one of the major flaws.

I am not intending to be a jerk or offend you or anyone else. My purpose is two fold: to have a little fun with the line of this discussion: and to bring up some important points of caution.

[negativecr33p]

Xindu,

What are you doing writing the same question in all the different sections of this BB? You asked this same question under a different title in the “Related Arts” section!!

Below was my response on that thread! Why don’t respond to it and I will be happy to discuss it further with you. The point is everything has its limits! And no matter how well prepared you think you are, there is always someone, somewhere, sometime who can do you in!!


I agree there is a certain amount of fantasy involved with many who practice martial arts. One of the fantasies is the efficacy of mixed martial arts. It is predicated upon an assumption of how we “think” a “real life” encounter will occur. The marketing of mixed martial arts is predicated upon a narrow set of circumstances and ignores many possible scenarios just like any other art preceding the 90’s. It may account for a wider variety of circumstances, but it is still limited. It is one thing to have to fight one person, and another to have to fight many, and another to have to fight many with baseball bats and yet another to have to fight someone who has just come up behind you and brained you with a claw hammer! Or a home invasion with a shot gun.

The only true test of any MA is when our life is on the line. Anything else is a limited circumstance. Even NHB competitions have rules. No biting, eye gouging, finger breaking, groin kicking!! One of the first things I would do in a real life or death encounter is drive my # 2 pencil or Papermate pen into my assailants eye or throat. Now I have just neutralized his 10 or 15 years of mixed marital arts training!!! If he wants to take me down? I will be happy to drive my # 2 pencil or my pocket knife blade into his cervical spine or his kidney, or maybe I will just slit his throat. There goes his 15-20 years of mixed marital arts training!! His advanced training has just provided me with the opportunity I needed. He fell into my trap! Which was, “Please take me down!!! I don’t know what I am doing!!!” I merely prepared for the weakness in his attack and it didn’t take me 10-20 years of learning fancy moves to defeat him. I learned it just this second when I thought it up!!

It isn’t always who has the most training in real life. It is who is willing to be the most brutal first!!!

Years ago I went to high school with a guy who did just that. He crashed a high school party in a neighboring town. He was called out into the front yard by some big football player. While the footballer was busy posturing, pushing and mouthing off, the guy took out a straight razor and slit the footballer’s throat. Now he is dead!!! He is dead because he was messing with a guy who was willing to be more brutal than he was and didn’t care what the consequences were!!!

I have a friend who is a master of combat shooting! He is ranked a master in internationally sanctioned competition!! He can draw and shoot me dead before I can get close enough to him to do anything!! There is pepper spray and tasers, and baseball bat-fu and the well proven O.J. Simpson-Fu (Hide in the bushes with a big knife!!!)!! Everything has a weakness! If a person is training to be invincible he is chasing moonbeams! Choose your method of training and have fun and be as well rounded as you want to be, but don’t confuse yourself into thinking that you can take anyone. A smart person, who wants to take you out, only needs to discover what you know and devise a way around it. That is all it takes!! It is called strategy and tactics!!! The best method is to just sneak up behind you and club you to death!! Surprise from behind is more effective than the most highly trained person. If you are not expecting it you are as good as dead. So train in your NHB, but know you are training for a duel, not real combat!!

Rigggght. You train to fight many people with baseball bats. And you actually believe you might be able to fight even two people with baseball bats? Sorry, no....not if they're anywhere near your size and have any kind of instincts. Don't even need brains, ****. And what in the hell makes you think, if you could fight off multiple assailants with baseball bats, that an MMA isn't going to be able to stop a ****ing #2 pencil?!?!?! Sure, it's got a chance of getting through. Just like a jab would. Maybe 50/50? And then you got to factor in, by turning his head a mere half an inch, you've completely missed his eye altogether, even if it did get through. People who defend training without full resistance i.e. atleast close to full contact, are just dumb, ignorant, or delusional. Next someone will say a trained standup fighter could beat an experienced BJJ guy. lol

[negativecr33p]

Ooops. I think it was already eluded to. Simple takedowns are easy to counter. Yeah, whatever. And your chain punch is gonna knock someone out in 1 hit.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi negativecr33p,

Try reading my posts more carefully and completely!!

As with Knifefighter, you have missed the point!!! You are talking about very specific situations and injecting standard responses to those situations! Not all fights involve a period of posturing and mouthing off in which to prepare for or initiate an attack. Some occur the second you step out a door when you are unprepared for it, or occur as with my high school acquaintance and the footballer, when one intends to posture and the other intends to KILL!!!!!

I am speaking about extraordinary circumstances for which one has no expectation or trained ability to circumvent!!! I am talking about over confidence in ones training style!!!!! I am speaking about unrealistic expectations of any kind of MA including MMA!!!!!

If you think you can defend against a surprise and unexpected attack then you are in danger of just that because your over confidence is exaggerating your true ability. If you think you can defend yourself against multiple baseball bat wielding assailants or multiple machete wielding assailants you are in for a rude awakening! THAT was my point, NOT that that is what I DO!!!!! Pay closer attention!!!!

I never made the claim that I train against multiple baseball bat wielding assailants! I cautioned that just because one can take someone to the ground and grapple DOES NOT mean they are prepared for every kind of fighting circumstance. These are specific circumstances that DO occur, but most of them are a duel and do not represent a REAL life and death circumstance!!!

There are many delusional individuals who seem to think the MMA is the end all and be all of fighting and I am trying to inject a bit a reality into their limited views. EVERY style of fighting works to a certain extent within specific parameters, but ALL have their weaknesses. MMA practitioners like to go around and talk big about the superiority of their style of training, but do not see the errors and limitations! Their arrogance will get them hurt if they decide to mess with the wrong kind of person. This kind of person is likely to be less well trained, but more brutal and underhanded then is expected!!

REAL criminals don’t want a stand up fight, they want to WIN and that means doing anything it takes to load the dice in their favor!!!! You may not know any REAL criminals, but I have worked with REAL criminals in the California Dept. of Corrections for 12 years!!! I know guys that have been beat, stabbed, shot, peppersprayed, tasered, run over by cars, thrown off buildings, hit with machetes, baseball bats….you name it!!!! They love over confident arrogant MA who think they know everything!! They will just wait until you are alone in the dark outside your house and teach you the meaning of fear, and not just you, your wife, kids, your dog, your cat and your horse and their dead bodies!!! Most people have no idea how the mind of a REAL criminal thinks and that is the weakness of civilized and semi-civilized individuals!!

REAL bad guys are not going to mess around with pansy grappling!! They are going to CHEAT in some manner that gives them an advantage LIKE multiple baseball bat wielders, or multiple machete wielders like they do in the Philippines, or shoot your legs off with a shotgun, or drive by your house and shoot anyone who happens to be standing around!! Or rape you, your wife, your dog and the dead body of your daughter and son!! I know guys that have done just that and do you think they care about your MMA training? This is the REAL world of fighting to WIN and it is unnecessary to have any knowledge of MMA to WIN. All one needs is to think strategically and tactically and attack when the victim is unawares and that INCLUDES, but is not limited to a pencil to your eye!!!!

[Scott R. Brown]

negativecr33p,

How about quieting your pseudo-expert know nothing novice attitude and listen to someone people with REAL world experience!!!

Here is another story for all those who like to pretend they know something: like it is impossible to knock someone out with one punch!!

I knew a REAL criminal who was legendary in the prison system for knocking out individuals half his age! He was never beaten in a fight and rarely threw more than one punch and ALWAYS knocked out his assailant!!! He was in his mid-fifties. It can happen and it does happen!!!

As far as takedowns are concerned I have had wrestlers, judoka and grapplers take me down many times or I should say TRY to take me down. One wrestler was a California champion!! Once you know the secret it is easy to avoid most of the time!!!

Go ahead and live in your fantasy world. Good luck!! I hope don’t have to come up against a REAL fighter and not one of these individuals who just like to play at being tough!!!

[Nick Forrer]

As far as takedowns are concerned I have had wrestlers, judoka and grapplers take me down many times or I should say TRY to take me down. One wrestler was a California champion!! Once you know the secret it is easy to avoid most of the time!!!



Hi Scott

I am not trolling here. Im genuinely curious what you think the secret to avoiding takedowns is. Is there a specific move that you use like a level change or sprawl?
Do you use a move/posture from tai chi? Some footwork perhaps? IYO Is there a difference to countering takedowns from the clinch and takedowns from the shoot?

Thanks for any info

[Fajing]

A MMA fighter with some basic weapons training will understand that a simple clinch with double underhooks to a body slam or suplex to mount will make it virtually impossible for you to get that deadly #2 pencil from your pocket protector


Hmm, have to disagree with this. It takes me all of a tenth of a second to have my Strider custom out and slashing furiously. You just have to train for it. I have learned numerous ways to disarm a knife from an attacker, but I have to say my favorite is still turn and run. I have still never seen any empty hand style that could compete with an armed knife fighter, OR ARE WE LITERALLY ONLY TALKING ABOUT PENCILS HERE? :p

[Liddel]

Knifefighter and negativecr33p

I think if you guys squared off ( not even recognising Scotts - getting you from behind approach, which is stupid to argue with because he has the element of surprise) and one of you was the attacker with a thick black marker, even if the defender took the attacker down and choked him out, at some point you would recieve a very big black line on your body.

Have you tried this drill, Not just used rubber knives... ?
Can you perform a takedown and not get cut ?

This is a very effective drill and very easy to see improvement over time as your white t-shirt gets less and less black marks, but there is always ONE !
Unless its a very unique situation, and im only talking about face to face fighting... a duel where both parties intentions are known, not even entertaining the element of surprise mentioned by Scott that you contend......

[Ultimatewingchun]

It seems to me that the whole essence of this thread is being overlooked (especially since Scott jumped into it)...at which point the thread took a definite turn into something somewhere.

But anyway...it's not about MMA trained guys being overconfident; and it's not about what style best fits what circumstances; or how simple and effective it is to underhook into a takedown and mount; and it's not about how fast somebody can get his knife out of his pocket...or anything else along these lines.

Whether you're a trained martial artist or just a street thug...

The winner is invariably (ie.- almost always) the guy who wants it the most...and is willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done.

So Scott makes some very good points along these lines (especially about the criminal/psychopathic/desperate mind) - but my point is that MMA trained guys (or whoever else) aren't disqualified from being in the "He who wants it the most will win" group.

Whether you've been training or not...it's the Will-to-Prevail that almost always decides the outcome.

[XINDU]

It seems to me that the whole essence of this thread is being overlooked (especially since Scott jumped into it)...at which point the thread took a definite turn into something somewhere.

But anyway...it's not about MMA trained guys being overconfident; and it's not about what style best fits what circumstances; or how simple and effective it is to underhook into a takedown and mount; and it's not about how fast somebody can get his knife out of his pocket...or anything else along these lines.

Whether you're a trained martial artist or just a street thug...

The winner is invariably (ie.- almost always) the guy who wants it the most...and is willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done.

So Scott makes some very good points along these lines (especially about the criminal/psychopathic/desperate mind) - but my point is that MMA trained guys (or whoever else) aren't disqualified from being in the "He who wants it the most will win" group.

Whether you've been training or not...it's the Will-to-Prevail that almost always decides the outcome.Well he who hesitates hits the concrete, The streets are like the wild west we can both have weapons its who uses their's first . No matter how determined you are to win. It comes down to first strike.
All fighting is by deception

[Sihing73]

Well he who hesitates hits the concrete, The streets are like the wild west we can both have weapons its who uses their's first . No matter how determined you are to win. It comes down to first strike.
All fighting is by deception

Hello,

I would tend to disagree with this although the point is a valid one. Often it will be the person who attacks first who will win however that is not a given. There are countless examples of people struck and even shot who went on to disable or even kill their attackers. What is it that sets them apart? Perhaps the very mindset of never quiting and continuing to fight on no matter what. It is very true that you can receive quite a serious injury and yet still kill or disable your attacker. Don't believe me? Check it out for yourself and talk to some street cops or ER doctors. He who strikes first may have an initial advantage but he who fights hardest has the overall advantage.

Besides, there are serious legal ramifications for those who advocate striking first. While this approach can have its place, it is often not the best avenue from a legal perspective.

Peace,

Dave

[Knifefighter]

Scott- A few questions for you, if you don't mind.

At which correctional facility are you employed?
In what capacity are you employed by the CA Dept of Corrections?
What is your wrestling background?

[Nick Forrer]

TTT for mine and Dales/KF's questions!!!

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Nick,

I won't have the time to answer your questions completely til later this week or this weekend, but i will get to them when i can.

Hi Knifefighter,

I have been out of CDC for about 5 years now, family reasons!!

Vacaville: 1 year 9 months or so, MTA (Correctional Officer/Nurse) in the Acute Psychiatric wings S and Q mostly, 1987-89 both pre and post DMH.

Susanville: 6-9 months, the old prison and Lassen yard when it was new 1989+ Sierra and whatever the other yard was, MTA again in the Infirmary and clinics.

San Luis Obispo: 10 yrs: 2 yrs MTA mostly the Psychiatric almost all D Quad with some C Quad, clinic; and Ad Seg. 8+ yrs Correctional Officer, you name it I worked there at some point. Yard, escort, kitchen, tower, housing units, both east and west prisons; 6 months S.E.R.T. trainee till i had to resign for shoulder surgery.

Most of my wrestling experience has been with friends who wrestled. One of my high school buddies was a state class wrestler, but I dont remember how high he placed, it was long ago. Of course it ****ed him off when he could rarely take me down. He succeeded mostly when i was suprised or not prepared and i dont recall ever being pinned. One thing i could do when he was riding me, and i have done this with some grapplers and Aikidoka and Judoka too, is lock myself into position and keep from being moved. In the old days it would have been called filling yourself with ki. But there is a trick to it. It takes a very experienced person to move me, but usually it still takes some effort. I have never done it with someone substantially bigger than me though! I dont claim and any special ability but i do seem to have some kind of innate sense of balance and i can respsond well well to subtle changes in my opponent. I am not 100% effective of course, no one is, but i am effective enough for my purposes. I havent wrestled in a loooooong time. Just to be clear i am not claiming invincibility. I have been had too and i mostly get a good laugh out of it, becaseu it means i will get the opportunity to learn more. It is usually with someone whose fighting style I have not figured out yet.

It is never my goal to have to grapple so when i do grapple in training i usually challenge myself by letting myself get into a compromising position and work on ways to escape. I don't mind losing in training because my purpose is not to win, but to find and exploit flaws in my opponent.

I have to say i dont grapple much anymore either, but i am starting to train my son so i will be getting back into the swing of it again!!

[Knifefighter]

Have you tried this drill, Not just used rubber knives... ?

Yes- many times. However, this is not a very realistic way to train knife work. Those big marks you see when getting "slashed" with the marker are just that- slash cuts. These types of cuts are usually relatively superficial and, while they may bleed quite a bit, will rarely stop a person during an adrenaline-filled encounter against a blade or end up being fatal. The types of wounds that have real stopping power and are more often fatal are those that are penetrating thrusts. These thrusts are barely registered with "marker tag" sparring.

A more realistic way to train is with steel training knives and without using protective equipment. When you train this way, the dangerous, hard thrusting shots will force you to stop because of the pain and you will know when you have given or taken "killing" shots.



Can you perform a takedown and not get cut ?

With the marker in the pocket (simulating a concealed blade), I can usually either get the takedown or keep him from accessing the marker.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Knifefighter,

All you need is to keep your folder in your closed fist. Open it when necessary!!!

[negativecr33p]

negativecr33p,

How about quieting your pseudo-expert know nothing novice attitude and listen to someone people with REAL world experience!!!

Here is another story for all those who like to pretend they know something: like it is impossible to knock someone out with one punch!!

I knew a REAL criminal who was legendary in the prison system for knocking out individuals half his age! He was never beaten in a fight and rarely threw more than one punch and ALWAYS knocked out his assailant!!! He was in his mid-fifties. It can happen and it does happen!!!

As far as takedowns are concerned I have had wrestlers, judoka and grapplers take me down many times or I should say TRY to take me down. One wrestler was a California champion!! Once you know the secret it is easy to avoid most of the time!!!

Go ahead and live in your fantasy world. Good luck!! I hope don’t have to come up against a REAL fighter and not one of these individuals who just like to play at being tough!!!

Ummm, sorry, but any wrestler, judoka, whatever would take you down if they're half decent. I don't believe you, not the slightest. Unless you also cross train in wrestling/some type of grappling. In which case you would both go down. Unless you got a throw in or whatever....but sorry, it's not easy at all to avoid a takedown, if it were atleast one pure standup fighter MIGHT have won one UFC match. But they haven't. Because it's easy to force the fight to the ground if you know ground fighting. Period. Once you're in the clinch, if the grappler is good, you're either hugging them or one or both of you is going down. This has simply been proven. Of course you could always try and poke out their eyes or bite, or his their spine first, but I doubt you did this with any judoka you trained with. Anyway, I've never pretended to be expert. Just slightly knowledgeble in what really works and what doesn't.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi negativecr33p,

The later part is for you too Nick………

This first part is for negativecr33p:

I am not concerned if you believe me or not!! I wouldn’t believe just anything someone said either, especially on a BB, if it went against my experience, so you are making a good decision there! You might keep in mind that just because you can't do something or don’t know how to do something doesn’t mean it can't be done! Everyone will get taken down sometimes, grappling is like a chess game with your body, you make the wrong move and you are sunk!!

If you are easily taken down then that is your experience! I would recommend learning to make it hard! Of course it is easier to take down someone smaller than you and I am less successful at foiling people substantially bigger than me, but there are still options available. All one needs to do is change level, splay, step back, step to the side or go down on one knee! In addition my goal is to always try to control the opponents head if possible. Where the head goes the body goes, so when you are rushed, suppress the head of your opponent driving it into the ground. If you have time and you are at the correct level, straight arm them on the chin during their rush or use your forearm(s) to their face forcing their head back. Of course this takes good timing!!! If you perceive them about to rush or they change level in preparation to rush break their timing by changing position or rushing them. You can also draw the rush by creating an opening for them then quickly move backward. Or, as they are rushing you, take both your hands and push their head to the side, up or down, as the opportunity presents itself, while pivoting. If you choose to rush keep your forward arm stiff and nearly straight, but downward and as you approach raise it up to their chin and your forward momentum will force their head back. If their head moves straight back you have them defeated, there are various quick finishing moves that will only take a second. If their head moves to the side there are still finishing moves if they don’t know what to do. There is an escape from this too, but I won’t detail it here!

If you are clinched you need to keep your center of gravity lower than the opponent. This should be obvious!!! He can't throw you unless he is exceedingly bigger and stronger than you and even then he must really know what he is doing. Lowering your COG can be accomplished a number of ways depending upon the circumstances. This usually involves stepping back, sticking your butt out, spaying or going down on one knee. Once again if his head is low control his head. If the head is at a medium level, guillotine him, but instead of just locking the head with your arm muscles, reach to your belt and grab the belt buckle and hook one finger around the left of center belt loop (for right handed guillotine) this makes it nearly impossible to escape. He can't pull your arm away if he is stronger than you because he is fighting against your grip not your arm muscles. This is less effective using a gi belt because it rotates around your waist. I don’t recommend any fancy throws from the guillotine; simple and direct is always best. Go down to your knee and/or splay flat to eliminate any chance for a counter. If his head it too high on your chest or near your shoulder get him in a head crank, then if he takes you down you are in a good position to crank it! If his head is high he most likely has his COG below yours, if not all you need to is stick your butt out behind you and you will crank his neck.

If he attempts a throw, how to foil it depends on what he is attempting. For a hip throw, slip the hip if your timing is good. That means as he turns move towards and around the hip or with the hip in the same direction of his turn. If he is fast and gets set, hook his leg if possible to foil the throw or jump up onto his back and wrap your legs around his hips or waist and hook your ankles together, now when he throws you he throws himself and you are still at his back where you want to be. You can also hook one leg around his waist and the other between his legs and lock your ankles together. These last two take timing and practice. Sometimes you can use one leg some times you need both legs to hook his leg. Another option is to grab his belt and lock yourself tight to him, as he tries to throw you he is actually throwing himself; once again this is less effective with a gi belt. With these particular moves, most of the time, you are just temporarily locked in position and you are still vulnerable to be thrown if you cannot find a weakness in his positioning! With all throws, if it is evident he has the upper hand and you WILL be thrown, give as much resistance as you can and at the last moment go with the throw, but also, if possible, throw yourself into the throw in an attempt to disrupt his timing, force a mistake or throw him off balance. Keep your body as close to his as possible. For body slams cling as close to the opponent as possible, if he really wants to slam you he has to follow you to the ground. If you are lifted to be slammed or for a suplex and you are facing each other, wrap your legs around the opponent’s waist or one leg, he can't suplex you and has to slam you. If he raises you to slam you undo your legs quickly and land on your legs and throw him. If he is smart he will just go down on his knees and fall on you instead.

Another effective method when clinching, but takes some experience, is to suppress one of the opponent’s shoulders while raising the other. This can be done a number of ways and causes a tilting that facilitates your unbalancing him. One must usually move or step to the rear or go down on a knee when performing this move. It also depends upon the opponent’s foot placement! If you do it correctly he is working against your body weight and not your strength which makes it nearly impossible to counter. It must be counter by not letting it get started!

I am not interested in playing the, “if you do this I would do that game”. We can go on forever doing that!! Every move can be countered in some manner. I wrote this because I was asked. If anyone doesn’t agree that is fine. I don’t care!!! This works for me and if you like it try it, but remember it all takes practice and you must learn to feel the subtle balance changes in your opponent for many moves! It is experience and skill level that matters. Practice, practice, practice, but also think, think, think, then think some more. Always look for the flaw in your movements, but mostly your opponents

My goal is to try to never have to take someone to the ground; this is too dangerous in public and applies to REAL life altercations, not duels or competitions! I don’t try to dominate; I seek to not be dominated. If I can stop a throw or a takedown or prevent injury to myself then I have succeeded. My goal is to demonstrate to my adversary the futility of his efforts without having to hurt anyone if possible.

[Scott R. Brown]

A few more comments:

As we all know anyone can get on a BB and spout off about anything they want and it doesn’t mean they know a hill of beans! Further, just because someone has trained for “X” number of years doesn’t automatically mean they know what they are talking about. I know many who have trained as long as I have yet know very little outside the style they train in and some very little of THAT style!!! I would not expect anyone to take my comments for gospel just because I pretend to know what I am talking about. We are each responsible to make our own determinations based upon our learning, knowledge and experience. That is all we can do!! So take or leave my comments as you like, I wouldn’t accept anyone’s comments myself if they didn’t prove themselves in my experience or unless I knew the person very well!! For general information it is best I think to give some of my background to at least give a bit of credibility to my comments.

Here is my training history:

I have trained in MA for 31 years. My first art, from which I earned by blackbelt, was what would now be called a MMA. Although we didn’t use that term in those days. We did perform some grappling, but much less than is practiced today in many MMA schools. The style was based upon, Kajukenbo, judo, boxing and Shaolin. After my years of training I am no longer impressed with blackbelts and I no longer even wear one, but just for general information, I have been a blackbelt, 3rd degree, for 26 years. I have not promoted because, as may be apparent from some of my comments and opinions, I do not play “THE GAME!!!!” I do not mention the name of my original art because I am not willing to give them any publicity, but neither am I willing to bad mouth them publicly! I am not one of those fat, over the hill know-it-alls who can no longer perform a proper kick or roll, etc. and won't get on the floor for fear of embarrassment! I am just as strong and flexible as I was when I was 20, although I am not as aerobically fit.

Over the years I have trained formally and informally in many arts the most notable are: White Crane, Tai Chi, Aikido, including Aiki-ken and Aiki-jo, Aiki-jutsu, Ju-jitsu, some grappling and wrestling!!!

Every style of combat, including MMA, follows certain principles; these principles are valuable for learning and training but they also create a fixed way of learning and viewing a fight, or confrontation. It is a narrow view. Even the broader view as taught in MMA still has a fixed view or structure that must be transcended in order for an individual to be a more effective fighter! Our vision or perspective is narrowed due to our training and we don’t realize it until something or someone comes along to turn our preconceived notions on their head. We tend to think of actions/techniques as occurring only along certain specific lines because that is how we are trained. So, when we grapple against grapplers we accustom ourselves to the type of reactions that grapplers provide. Then when a REAL LIFE altercation comes along if our opponent does not follow the prescribed actions which we have become accustomed to, it can be difficult to adjust on the fly and we become vulnerable to defeat. I always try to train will beginners for this reason. They do not react in the prescribed manner that more experienced fighters do, because they are not inculcated into the prescribed mode of reacting within a particular school. This will help to keep the more experienced trainees on their toes and keep them flexible as they are required to respond to the unexpected actions and reactions of a beginner.

When one has trained as long as I have and studied as much as I have it takes a lot to make an impression and it is very hard to find something new that is worth including in my knowledge base and training regime. In the end just about every MA technique works like a magic trick. I am not saying it is magic, what I mean is, once you know the secret it is no longer mysterious, unbelievable or special. Bright eyed fantasies are for the young and inexperienced, but the old timers must continue to search, investigate and study in order to improve.

In the past 10-15 years my greatest interest has been in discovering and testing:

1) The underlying principles of body mechanics and body movement and their application to self-defense, In the past this was called the “ESSENCE” of an art. It is my belief that if one understands the essence or foundation, one may understand all that springs from it.
2) Ways of enhancing perceptions and awareness,
3) Principles of group and individual psychology,
4) Methods of psychological manipulation in order to ameliorate hostility while allowing the adversary to maintain his perceived dignity and respect.

The points I have been attempting to make on this thread are:

It is the unexpected and/or surprise actions “that we are not prepared for” that are the ones that make us most susceptible to defeat. If we use unexpected or surprise tactics ourselves they will increase our chance of victory, in any altercation, but primarily in a REAL fight. Not a duel!!! Not a duel because duels follow rules!!! Certainly surprise and the unexpected actions are a benefit in duels, however my point is that just because one is successful in a duel does not assure victory when fighting a REAL criminal who will not follow the rules of a duel, i.e. “a pencil to the eye” or other such action!!! So the first to act in an unexpected manner and the first to be the most brutal most frequently wins the day!! It is inconsequential whether anyone thinks they can defend against a knife from a clinch, or a pencil to the eye; that is not the point!!! They are merely examples meant to illustrate the point of “unexpected brutality”!!!

It is not my intention to disrespect anyone here! I know many of those who make their knowledgeable comments here have not trained as long as I have or in as many styles. Your views are based upon your experiences and it is prudent to take everything you read on a BB with some grain of salt, including anyone claiming as many years training as I. Anyone can say anything they want and if there is no one else to confirm the truth then it is up for grabs. Everyone must in the end experiment and experience for themselves the truth or falsity of any claim! I merely intend to caution against over-confidence, encourage innovative thinking, and recommend preparation for the unknown and unexpected!!

[Nick Forrer]

Hi Scott

Thanks for your informative reply :)

For the 100 conversational posts/chat/noise you get on here at least someone drops a few pearls your way :cool:

Makes KFO worth the time!

[whitefox]

Ummm, sorry, but any wrestler, judoka, whatever would take you down if they're half decent. I don't believe you, not the slightest. Unless you also cross train in wrestling/some type of grappling. In which case you would both go down. Unless you got a throw in or whatever....but sorry, it's not easy at all to avoid a takedown, if it were atleast one pure standup fighter MIGHT have won one UFC match. But they haven't. Because it's easy to force the fight to the ground if you know ground fighting. Period. Once you're in the clinch, if the grappler is good, you're either hugging them or one or both of you is going down. This has simply been proven. Of course you could always try and poke out their eyes or bite, or his their spine first, but I doubt you did this with any judoka you trained with. Anyway, I've never pretended to be expert. Just slightly knowledgeble in what really works and what doesn't.


How do you know for sure? Do you know Scott or what his personal experiences are?? Simmer down a bit and you might learn something new. When the elephants are fighting the monkeys head for the trees. I guess I'll head for my tree for now. :D

The grappling arts are really good arts to train in. However I don't believe that they are the only vehicle on the road to get us from point a to point b.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Nick,

You are welcome!! I am glad I could be of some help!!

Hi whitefox.

Thank you for the support!!

[Liddel]

Guy's, i believe both of you (even though i know neither of you care) because i believe almost anything can happen in a comfrontation...
Everyone has different experiences no one person is right or wrong it depends on the situations miriad or possibilities.

Knifefighter i accept your position which is obviously a result of your experiences,
however if you recieved a superficial cut to one eye or both, this i believe would be a different kettle of fish to the situation you describe, you may not be able to see ??...and niether of us can say with any certainty what the outcome would be... so we must leave it at that.

I also agree with Scott, i was at a call out where two officers took a guy to the ground after being pepper sprayed and he managed to take out two cops and with his sharp finger nails almost blinded one officer,he didnt need to reach for a knife. If it wasnt for a dog handler and other officers that arrived on scene at the right moment the outcome may have been different...

Mr negativecr33p
Just to offer something ive witnessed on TV in retort to a comment made, Chuck 'the iceman' Liddel, (mainly know as a striker, stand up fighter) has on many occasions just stood up after a sucessful takedown, he even did it against one of the best grapplers ever...Mr randy the natural couture...
So your point though valid isnt always the case. plus you state....
"if it were at least one pure standup fighter MIGHT have won one UFC match. But they haven't."
But NO pure grappler has won it either because they all cross train now...
So by saying this you support both sides of this"DISCUSSION".

Cant you just agree that both points made here have merit ?

[anerlich]

Chuck 'the iceman' Liddel, (mainly know as a striker, stand up fighter) has on many occasions just stood up after a sucessful takedown, he even did it against one of the best grapplers ever...Mr randy the natural couture...

Chuck actually has an extensive background in wrestling, which is where his takedown defense comes from.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Liddel,

Excellent points!!! Thank you for your contribution to the discussion.

I did qualify numerous times that I am not speaking about duels. NHB fights are duels and follow specific rules of conduct not necessarily adhered to in REAL life! Taking someone down in public has inherent risks that do not exist within the ring as your example of the police illustrates.