Chan, Daoism, philosophy and MA

[SPJ]

This is inspired by the other thread.

Chan is to meditate or think. Chan is to look at things closely. Chan is to seek truth in life and everything, so that we see things in the light or enlightened. The Buddha's way/Dharma/Buddhism or Daoism are both ways of Chan or paths leading to truth, nature of things or enlightenment. There are many dharma's.

Chan is to seek truth, then it is science. Truth about life then it is life philosophy.

Believe in re-incarnation and karma then it is a religion.

So the question is that how do Daoism and Chan or any other life philosophy tie into your MA study?

Or they are separate things altogether?

Do we need to have a life philosophy to study MA or vice versa?

What is MA about? About how to fight, how to defend, tactics and strategy and how to win or not lose, how to perserve and survive, etc

Thoughts and comments?

:confused: :D

[SPJ]

The development of CMA has 2 main aspects.

1) Xiang Xing or take the semblence of a form. such as the animal forms. dragon, tiger, snake, crane, mantis, leopard etc. The oldest "CMA" may be the dance recorded as 5 animal play or Wu Qin Xi.

2) Qu Yi or take the meaning of things. Such as Tai Chi, Ba Gua, Xing Yi etc.

Tai Chi focuses on Yin, Yang and change.

Ba Gua focuses on 8 trigram signs and change.

Xing Yi focuses on fist methods of Pi Beng Zhuan Pao Heng: 5 elements or Wu Xing, 12 animal forms and 8 characters etc.

:D

[northernArts]

This is inspired by the other thread.

Chan is to meditate or think. Chan is to look at things closely. Chan is to seek truth in life and everything, so that we see things in the light or enlightened. The Buddha's way/Dharma/Buddhism or Daoism are both ways of Chan or paths leading to truth, nature of things or enlightenment. There are many dharma's.

Chan is to seek truth, then it is science. Truth about life then it is life philosophy.

Believe in re-incarnation and karma then it is a religion.

So the question is that how do Daoism and Chan or any other life philosophy tie into your MA study?
:confused: :D

:eek: I don't mean any disrespect to you with this post. Chan is NOT philosophy. It is religion. Daoism is NOT philosophy, it is religion with beliefs about heaven, immortals etc. Daoism was never a philosophy, that's a western academic bias. Back to Chan. If you don't follow buddhism then I would say you're not doing chan. As a teenager I spent some time at Zen Mountain Monastery in upstate New York(before I went after kundalini yoga and then qigong) and I learned that Chan is religion.

You can have any belief system and study CMA - for example you can be christian or whatever. I think what gene said in another thread about 'art' implying spirituality holds true. If nothing else you should accept doctrines about TCM or at least acupoints/marma points & qigong. Otherwise why spend all this time doing CMA which is always a cultivation path if you accept these basic doctrines.

[David Jamieson]

:eek: I don't mean any disrespect to you with this post. Chan is NOT philosophy. It is religion. Daoism is NOT philosophy, it is religion with beliefs about heaven, immortals etc. Daoism was never a philosophy, that's a western academic bias. Back to Chan. If you don't follow buddhism then I would say you're not doing chan. As a teenager I spent some time at Zen Mountain Monastery in upstate New York(before I went after kundalini yoga and then qigong) and I learned that Chan is religion.

You can have any belief system and study CMA - for example you can be christian or whatever. I think what gene said in another thread about 'art' implying spirituality holds true. If nothing else you should accept doctrines about TCM or at least acupoints/marma points & qigong. Otherwise why spend all this time doing CMA which is always a cultivation path if you accept these basic doctrines.

Ch'an and taoism aren't exactly "religions" per se. If anything they can be labeled if need be as religio-philosophies, but they are not outright religions with a god head.

There is no godhead in Ch'an or taoism. There are occaisionally supernatural archetypes used to teel tales and of course there is going to be ritual to some practices that can be construed easily as religious trappings. However, they are not. Even Buddhism itself has no godhead. It is a philosophy on living more than anything as opposed to worship of an invisible personified god such as we see in Christianity, Islam, Judaeism, Hinduism and other religions that have at their heart of focus a mythical being, an entity who can intervene if we pray hard enough.

The Tao is the way. It looks at the natural way of things and attempts to find a place for a human to fit in.

Ch'an explores the reality of ones own soul and it's existance or non-existance.

Neither of these prescribe to a god and therefor can't really be tagged as religions in the purist sense.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Yeah thats right Buddhism isn't a religion c'os it has no godhead, and devotees make religious offerings and madalas to deities and realized Buddhas just for a laugh then.
Buddhism is thoroughly embarcing of ceremony and ritual, incantations and prayer offerings so that must obvioisluy mean it isn't a religion.

Look I can see where this is going and I think you have to look at the difference between Philosophy and religion a bit better.
All religions have a philosophy, and some philosophies have a bit of religion too.
Chan Buddhism highlights one's personal cultivation more so that ceremonialised sects of Buddhism which concentrates on ritual offerings, prayers, prostrations and reading of Sutra.

Taoism most certainly was a religion "per se", but has been popularised more so nowadays into a system of practical philosophy bereft of its honourations of realised enlightened beings up there in the Taoist heavens.

Religion and philosophy both speak of the same ends to their practice, that of realization. One may acheive this through devotional and faith based means or by practical esoteric means.

[northernArts]

Yeah thats right Buddhism isn't a religion c'os it has no godhead, and devotees make religious offerings and madalas to deities and realized Buddhas just for a laugh then.
Buddhism is thoroughly embarcing of ceremony and ritual, incantations and prayer offerings so that must obvioisluy mean it isn't a religion.

Look I can see where this is going and I think you have to look at the difference between Philosophy and religion a bit better.
All religions have a philosophy, and some philosophies have a bit of religion too.
Chan Buddhism highlights one's personal cultivation more so that ceremonialised sects of Buddhism which concentrates on ritual offerings, prayers, prostrations and reading of Sutra.

Taoism most certainly was a religion "per se", but has been popularised more so nowadays into a system of practical philosophy bereft of its honourations of realised enlightened beings up there in the Taoist heavens.

Religion and philosophy both speak of the same ends to their practice, that of realization. One may acheive this through devotional and faith based means or by practical esoteric means.

Wrong. Buddhism and Daoism are asian religions. They are NOT compatible with random western philosophy or western religions. They have their own beliefs. Daoism has NOT changed into philosophy. Quanshen is still around, Celestial Masters are still around, and more qigong-related groups are coming out - Falun Gong is one example. This ridiculous idea that anything that isn't monotheistic isn't a religion is complete bullsh*t. That's another western bias. yeah Buddhism isn't a religionj - just go to a zen monastery and try out your little "free thought" games when they're discussing sutras. Or tell the zen abbot that you're a zen buddhist who DOESN'T believe in the Buddha's enlightnement and that you think "enlightenment" can be reached by taking western philosophy courses at college. LOL. Where do you people get this stuff? David Jamieson you tried to say Hinduism is theistic - WRONG!!!!!! It's panentheistic, it's a religion, and so are daoism & buddhism. I can't believe you people peddle this sh*t. There is NO basis for what you are saying. According to your view - only christianity, judaism, & islam are religions. ROTFLMAO.

[northernArts]

Yeah thats right Buddhism isn't a religion c'os it has no godhead, and devotees make religious offerings and madalas to deities and realized Buddhas just for a laugh then.
Buddhism is thoroughly embarcing of ceremony and ritual, incantations and prayer offerings so that must obvioisluy mean it isn't a religion.

Look I can see where this is going and I think you have to look at the difference between Philosophy and religion a bit better.
All religions have a philosophy, and some philosophies have a bit of religion too.
Chan Buddhism highlights one's personal cultivation more so that ceremonialised sects of Buddhism which concentrates on ritual offerings, prayers, prostrations and reading of Sutra.

Taoism most certainly was a religion "per se", but has been popularised more so nowadays into a system of practical philosophy bereft of its honourations of realised enlightened beings up there in the Taoist heavens.

Religion and philosophy both speak of the same ends to their practice, that of realization. One may acheive this through devotional and faith based means or by practical esoteric means.

Wrong. Buddhism and Daoism are asian religions. They are NOT compatible with random western philosophy or western religions. They have their own beliefs. Daoism has NOT changed into philosophy. Quanshen is still around, Celestial Masters are still around, and more qigong-related groups are coming out - Falun Gong is one example. This ridiculous idea that anything that isn't monotheistic isn't a religion is complete bullsh*t. That's another western bias. yeah Buddhism isn't a religionj - just go to a zen monastery and try out your little "free thought" games when they're discussing sutras. Or tell the zen abbot that you're a zen buddhist who DOESN'T believe in the Buddha's enlightnement and that you think "enlightenment" can be reached by taking western philosophy courses at college. LOL. Where do you people get this stuff? David Jamieson you tried to say Hinduism is theistic - WRONG!!!!!! It's panentheistic, it's a religion, and so are daoism & buddhism. I can't believe you people peddle this sh*t. There is NO basis for what you are saying. According to your view - only christianity, judaism, & islam are religions. ROTFLMAO.

Here's the Taoist Restoration Society (http://www.taorestore.org) - go learn something.

[PangQuan]

Zen is a way of being and co existing within the moment. There is Zen involved within religion but IT is not religion in itself.

Zen can be utilized by one who has no religious connections what so ever...this ideal has established by many of the greatest Zen masters through out time...

[Ray Pina]

Sometimes we can get in our own way ... worrying about this, expecting that, planning for the other thing. I try to turn that side of my brain off and focus on what I am doing. Even better yet, just go around with an empty-like head. I learned this when I was younger following the Grateful Dead .... being a "Dead head" It's amazing what magic will happen if you just stand back and let it.

When it comes to martial arts I know the mind plays a huge role. You need to be singulalrly focused on your commitment to beat the other man, at the same time open to all the changes going on in combat.

I don't know if there is a way to train this. I think first you have to be open to expanding your mind to see the potentials, and then little by little you'll see how much the midn creates and then you may want to quiet it.

I know it sounds bad to quiet the mind or walk around in a sort of brain-dead state, but it's not quite that. It's realsiing the power of the mind and quieting it because you want things to unfold without subconscious interference.

[mantis108]

Philosophy means love of wisdom. Wisdom is different than knowledge IMHO. A worldview, much like an opinion, is wisdom (the why); whereas, the actual understanding of the world is knowledge (the what). worldview and understanding can sometime contradict each other. Wisdom is somtimes used to disprove knowledge and vice versa. In a way, it's the yin and the yang.

In a sense, worldview is a theory of the ultimate reality that we see as the world. Worldview is philosophical in nature. Religion however builds on a worldview and gives it form and shape. The worldview of religion has to have theosophy within it and theology is further developed out of it. Without theology there will be no religion. For the most past, religion seeks to re enact the knowledge of God or Dieties, whoever that might be. All the acts of devotion, faith, etc, would be devoided of meaning without the god-head whichever that might be. For example, creationism is the worldview of Christianity which is monotheistic. It contradicts greatly with the scientific theory of evloution.

A mystic by definition is a person who seeks by contemplation and self-surrender to obtain unity or identity with or absorption into the Deity or the ultimate reality, or who believes in the spiritual apprehension of truths that are beyond understanding (Canadian Oxford Dictionary). So mysticism to me is the unification of the mind-body continuum and the space-time continuum.

There are 3 types of Daosim - Philosophical Daosim, Religious Daoism, and Folk Daoism. Philosophical Daoism is the scholarly study of the various philosophies and the body of the knowledge of Dao (the Way). Most simple example is the studying of the Dao De Jing. Religious Daoism involve the observance of the Daoist Pantheon, ritual rites, reciting secrat text, temple life, etc. Folk Daoism is grass root level faith in Doaism. It's boarderline Shamanism and highly oppotunistic in nature. It could be think of as oppotunistic Daoism that encompass almost all known religions' traits in the world including Buddhism, Islam, Confuciusim, Hinduism, etc.

I believe that are only 2 MA traditions that are truely mystical in nature - Kalaripayattu and Kung Fu. Kung Fu is a mystical discipline of either the Chinese worldview outlined in the Yijing (the Classic of Change) which is IMHO a journal of exsitance rather than a history of God (i.e. the Bible). BTW, Kung Fu as a mystical discipline has also absorbed Ch'an Buddhism that is quite unique to Chinese mind. BTW, Zen Buddhism, the Japan counter part of Ch'an Buddhism, is a derivitive of Ch'an - the Chinese mystical mind. ;)

Mantis108

[SPJ]

Chan or Zen:

In Pali, it is jhanam. In Sankrit, it is dhyanam. Both are old languages in India.

It simply means to meditate or to think.

And yes the word is older than Buddha.

Some of the doctrines and ideas were from Hinduism.

Yes Chan or Zen sect is a school of Mahayana Buddhism.

But they do not monoply the word of Chan, to think or to meditate.

We all think in one way or another. And yet we are not all Buddhists, are we?

:D

[northernArts]

Chan or Zen:

In Pali, it is jhanam. In Sankrit, it is dhyanam. Both are old languages in India.

It simply means to meditate or to think.

And yes the word is older than Buddha.

Some of the doctrines and ideas were from Hinduism.

Yes Chan or Zen sect is a school of Mahayana Buddhism.

But they do not monoply the word of Chan, to think or to meditate.

We all think in one way or another. And yet we are not all Buddhists, are we?

:D

OK I've been schooled. Time to back out of this thread quietly. ;)

[SPJ]

NA;

You are still free to express your thoughts.

It is only an internet forum.

We are here to exchange ideas.

We all contribute.

:)

[Vajramusti]

A messy area. Partly due to differing definitions and partly not.

Philosophy and religion have been intertwined in different contexts and at different times. The nature of the inquiry makes for key distinctions.

St Augustine's concept of time is a debatable philosophical thesis, His conception of God is a matter of belief/disbelief and religion. Some aspects of Plato and Aristotle
also can be philosophy (epistemology) or religion(Plato's myth of metals or Aristotle's unmoved mover).
Einstein believed in singular intelligence in the universe(wanted to know how God thinks). Dirac was a materialist. But both understood each others equations in math philosophy and science. Newton could be a great scientist(he was) but he was also a fuzzy alchemist.
Hindu early science gave us aspects of classical astronomy- it later also gave us the mumbo jumbo of astrology.

There is a mass belief ritualistic and normative side of Buddhism- but there is also a deep philosophical side- in logic, analysis of self and critique of observation.
Chan philosophy is oriented towards contnuous discovery and polishing one's powers of observation and avoiding beinga prisoner of ideologies.

Philosophy (Plato, Hui neng)can help analyse many aspects of human activity including martial arts, it can point towards wisdom and the examined life- but if the pusuit is not open minded and hence philosophical it can lead to rituals, and
ideologies and even conflict. Enough FWIW.

joy chaudhuri

[Mr Punch]

Holy **** Northern Arts, think you need to sit on a big fat lotus for a while and chill!

It's just a chat!

Anyway, as you said, SPJ just nailed it. There is a distinct difference between lay Chan (and Chon and Zen and Taoism... I'll just say Chan for now) and religious Chan. There are many schools that teach it just as a form of meditation with no reference at all to Buddha's teaching. Just as there are many schools of Buddhism that don't even believe Buddha is divine, or haven't any particular preference for reincarnation, heaven and hell, 'straight' death etc.

One of the things that all Buddhism shares that makes it differ from the Semetic/Hellenistic religions is that there are seldom absolutes. (I can't say absolutely no absolutes...! ;) ). Mantis 108's post also nicely illustrates the variation in Taoism more accurately. Though I don't agree with his choices of the only spiritual arts, having practised aikido for many years, and various other Japanese arts.

As far as the original question, I was a strange kid and very philosophical, so that was my main reason for starting in the arts. Now, I'm all p!ss and wind and I like a rumble, so the spiritualism has taken a back seat. When I'm old and knackered, the spiritualism will come back I'm sure! :D

[Yum Cha]

Now that we've got a working definition of what Tao and Darmah CAN mean to different people (Mantis, you are a god) We also have a record of man's development of thought.

Not forgetting the "z" index of time, philosophies that sprang from early thinkers and philosophers have been handed down and modified, reproduced, branched over the collective thinking history of man.

So, we can call it the lessons of the ages. How many of the principles carry through other modern philosophies/religions.

Likewise, we have eastern vs western philosophical perspective in the here and now, we cannot necessarily stand in another man's shoes....


BUT the question is, how has it influenced your Kung Fu, or conversely, how has your kung fu influenced you?

It taught me to revere a single moment and a single place in the practice. Which is strangely contrary to its pace and movement. I look at this philosophically and strategically, but not religiously.

I don't know if this feeling is transferable...I think perhaps it is a just my rational.


BTW, I threw a guitar pick on Buddy Hollys grave, does that mean I think he's a god? **** STRAIGHT!

[Vajramusti]

"Likewise, we have eastern vs western philosophical perspective in the here and now, we cannot necessarily stand in another man's shoes....
BUT the question is, how has it influenced your Kung Fu, or conversely, how has your kung fu influenced you?"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For me- aspects of both western and eastern philosophy on the one hand and kung fu on the other have reinforced each other. The nexus includes- the Platonic concept of courage as knowing what should be feared and what shouldnt.., balanced development of body and mind,.the Hindu and Budhhist critique- there is no permanent self to be slain-the Vedantic conception of
kartavya-obligation- the Buddhist notion of compassion for the weak who might need help-your body belongs to the sangha, the Chan conception of looking at what is before you without bias- Sun Tzu's knowing yourself and your enemy-the Chan conception of non attachment to a technique-the Chan and yogic advice on the breath being in harmony with the action
and one pointedness and awareness and sensing every stimulus(kalripayattu- the body has a thousand eyes)-if possible, and being decisive.In practice if one becomes too attached to technique you can lose. If you only develop the body or the mind- you can lose. Practice reinforces the Chan humility and honesty about one's limitaions. Plato argued for moderation- pointed out the dangers of imbalanced training- how (Greek)Olympic particpants are/were easily injured in training and their careers were often short.

joy chaudhuri

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Religions are just cultural interpretations of simple spiritual awareness.. ritualized philosophy.. Religions don't just magically "happen", there is a philosophical journey to that point. "Spiritual awareness", that inherent knowing that we are part of something greater.. Religion, the "business of spirituality", benefiting from the inherent knowing..

As was earlier mentioned, all religions have a philosophy but not all philosophies are religious.. My experiences lead me to believe that religions are just ritualized philosophies, the value is in the philosophy.. too often, the ritual becomes a distraction, or.. worse, it becomes the goal.. one can master the ritual and miss the goal..

Be well..

[northernArts]

I want to apologize to the following KFM members:

SPJ
David Jamieson
Repulsive Monkey

I'm sorry for using harsh language and insulting all of you. I realize now that you all know something about these topics and I was the one that made assumptions about your posts that were wrong. I assumed you were just ignorant and that is not the case. I'm embarassed at the way I acted and I hope you will forgive me at some point.
I wish you all well and once again I want to apologize for my language in this thread - I was wrong and you didn't deserve to be spoken to that way.

I guess I need to spend some more time doing qigong and not being so tempermental and judgemental.

[mantis108]

Hi Mat,

I agreed that many Japanese MA are also highly mystical like Aikido as you have pointed out. I think I overlooked that. :( While I agreed that JMA can be quite mystical and unique in its development, I would however believe that they have been greatly influenced by the Chinese counter part. Correct me if I am wrong, the concept of Ki in Aikido is very much Qi in Chinese which is a very distinct Chinese perspective of universal energy. I am not sure how much Shinto religious view has influenced the JMA development but I am quite certain that both Daoism and Ch'an Buddhism have great impacts on JMA. Now, this is not to say that being original is better or it is more efficient. It is only to recognize the poineering work of two ancient countries. We all know that modern fighting phenom, BJJ, was born out of Judo which no doubt is developed or perfected out of Ju Jitsu.

Hi Yum Cha,

Thanks my friend. You see why I am not an atheist? ;) :D Just kidding. Seriously, my mentor in Mantis told me "Eventually your personality is going to show up in your Kung Fu." which I find true. BTW, He's into all those self knowledge and self expression thing. But I also find that "you are (or become) what you train." much of my current attributes are a result of the training more so than I am naturally capable of.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Mr Punch]

Hi Mat,

I agreed that many Japanese MA are also highly mystical like Aikido as you have pointed out. I think I overlooked that. :( While I agreed that JMA can be quite mystical and unique in its development, I would however believe that they have been greatly influenced by the Chinese counter part. Correct me if I am wrong, the concept of Ki in Aikido is very much Qi in Chinese which is a very distinct Chinese perspective of universal energy. I am not sure how much Shinto religious view has influenced the JMA development but I am quite certain that both Daoism and Ch'an Buddhism have great impacts on JMA. Now, this is not to say that being original is better or it is more efficient. It is only to recognize the poineering work of two ancient countries. Of course you are correct in assuming that with many Japanese martial arts the emphasis is on Zen which is very very similar to Ch'an.

I'm not sure if there are any differences at all in thinking, but in practice (of Zen, not MA!) in Zen the two main prompts to enlightenment during zazen are being beaten with a bamboo stick, and the koan (usually a very short poem or question like the famous 'What is the sound o fone hand clapping' but sometimes taking the form of a geometrical puzzle or something). Are these practices to be found in Ch'an?

Also we shouldn't forget the influence of traditional Confucianism (also of course Chinese) on the Japanese arts. The five pleats on a kendo hakama represent the Five Pillars of Confucianism and the the seven pleats on the aikido hakama represent the five pillars plus two of Ueshiba's choosing to represent his beliefs.

However, in the case of modern aikido, as founded by Ueshiba Morihei, the main religious thinking is that of Omoto-kyo, which is a very deeply esoteric sect of Shinto. The way aikidoka breathe, and their concept of ki, is that it is connecting with the Kotodama of Suu (loosely translated as the 'Echo of Breathing'). This is the vibration that started the universe and is present as a low frequency in everything that is or was living or mineral: not so much the 'Big Bang' as the 'Big Hum' if you like! Of course, most modern practictioners prefer to go for the Zen aspects as they are easier to grasp at least in basic form, and don't require so much commitment for the layperson.

AFAIK, these beliefs are entirely Japanese in origin. If you know any different I'd be delighted to find out!

[mantis108]

Hi Mat,

Ah, the "OM". I wasn't aware that it was from Shinto tradition. I naturally presumed that it was from Hindu tradition. So there are more to it then... interesting. Big Bang (particle) or Big OM (wave) is just different side of the coin IMHO.

Great input BTW, thanks for sharing. :)

Warm regards

Mantis108

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

hmm... i learn something new here every day. :)

i thought Zen was the nipponese pronunciation of Chan and that both traditions came from India, then China, then the carved out islands of Amatarasu.

[Mr Punch]

Hi Mat,

Ah, the "OM". I wasn't aware that it was from Shinto tradition. I naturally presumed that it was from Hindu tradition. So there are more to it then... interesting. Big Bang (particle) or Big OM (wave) is just different side of the coin IMHO.

Great input BTW, thanks for sharing. :)

Warm regards

Mantis108OM my God!:D

I don't know so much about it but briefly, the difference between OM and SUU is that OM is a wave that can be imitated from the wide open 'A' sound through the wide-mouthed 'O' sound and into the closed mouthed 'M' sound, and back. This is found in Japanese arts too, as in the 'E'-'TO' of kendo (the uke's kiai is 'E' and the tori's is 'TO' - although you would think this is pretty different from the closed mouth OM, my kendo teacher explained it as the Japanese representation of OM - maybe the mouth position is simply because Japanese and its dialects don't really use a wide open mouth at all!). It is also found represented on the faces of the Buddhist temple guardians in Japan, the Fudoo Myoo (which everybody over here attrirubutes to the Chinese). One of them always has the 'A' or 'O' face and the other is always 'OM'. The 'A' one is usually in an open expansive posture, like one open hand raised above the head and one down protecting its groin like one of the classic shaolin stances. The 'OM' one is usually in a tighter closed stance complete with closed fists or a weapon (often a representation thunderbolt). These guys have an associated element like lightning or thunder or wind and an associated weapon (but they vary and I can't think of any examples!). I've seen similar ones in Hong Kong.

SUU is a vibration (I know a vibration is a wave anyway but I look on it as a much higher frequency and lower peak) with a combination of closed and open mouth together. It is a constant, as opposed to the fluctuation of OM. It may be that the sect of Omoto-kyo took it from old OM beliefs (and may be subconsciously), but they always insist that it's Shinto.



i thought Zen was the nipponese pronunciation of Chan It is! We were onto Shintoism! :)

[SPJ]

Northern Arts:

No harm done.

Welcome to the forum.

After a while, you will know more about fellow forummates.

I started the thread because the question was mentioned and buried in the original thread.

There are many cool people in this forum Kung Fu wise and wisdom wise.

:D

[Vajramusti]

Nationalism mucks up a lot of understandings. Japanese nationalism and its heavy dependence on Shintoism sometimes tends to obscure the roots of "OM" in the Indian or Indo Pakistani subcontinent. "OM" is there in the RG Veda- the first Veda.
It was regarded as a primordial vibration rather thana word. Buddhism is not a nationalistic religion and in the transmission of Buddhism- OM was carried over to
China into Chan and non Chan Buddhism and on to Korea and Japan. With cultural evolution intertwined with natinalism both in China and Japan lots of parochial claims
have emerged.
Lot more universalism in Hui Neng's Sutra and Dogen's Shobygenzo than is the case in China and Japn today.
Joy Chaudhuri

[Mr Punch]

Nationalism mucks up a lot of understandings. Japanese nationalism and its heavy dependence on Shintoism sometimes tends to obscure the roots of "OM" in the Indian or Indo Pakistani subcontinent. So what are you saying here Joy?

Do you have some evidence that the Kotodama of Suu is derived from OM? I'd like to know if you have.

Japanese nationalism had a heavy dependence on Shintoism... but that deosn't mean Shintoism had a heavy dependence on nationalism. Omoto-kyo had a strong message of peace and the universal, and no belief at all in nationalism.

Unless you are suggesting that the Kotodama of Suu is directly taken from Om philosophy, I would cordially suggest that you don't actually need to mention Japanese nationalism at all. I appreciate your pride in Indian cultural history and also your lack of patience with imperialism of any sort from your own experience, but I am not being an apologist for Japan's or my own when I say that a knee-jerk response connecting Shintoism to nationalism in this discussion is perhaps in itself a little racist?

The few members of the Japanese public I've met who have the slightest interest in spiritual things are fully aware that most of their spiritual origins come from India through China. In fact in plain sight on their old graves they have the five elements of Chinese Taoism written in Sanskrit.

[Vajramusti]

Mantis 108 sez:
Ah, the "OM". I wasn't aware that it was from Shinto tradition. I naturally presumed that it was from Hindu tradition.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mat sez:SUU is a vibration (I know a vibration is a wave anyway but I look on it as a much higher frequency and lower peak) with a combination of closed and open mouth together. It is a constant, as opposed to the fluctuation of OM. It may be that the sect of Omoto-kyo took it from old OM beliefs (and may be subconsciously), but they always insist that it's Shinto.

__________________________________________________ _______
Mat also sez:---Japanese nationalism had a heavy dependence on Shintoism... but that deosn't mean Shintoism had a heavy dependence on nationalism. Omoto-kyo had a strong message of peace and the universal, and no belief at all in nationalism.

Unless you are suggesting that the Kotodama of Suu is directly taken from Om philosophy, I would cordially suggest that you don't actually need to mention Japanese nationalism at all. I appreciate your pride in Indian cultural history and also your lack of patience with imperialism of any sort from your own experience, but I am not being an apologist for Japan's or my own when I say that a knee-jerk response connecting Shintoism to nationalism in this discussion is perhaps in itself a little racist?

The few members of the Japanese public I've met who have the slightest interest in spiritual things are fully aware that most of their spiritual origins come from India through China. In fact in plain sight on their old graves they have the five elements of Chinese Taoism written in Sanskrit.
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Mat- Dont have time for a dissertaion- so I will touch on some beginning points and let it go. I am not given to knee jerk responses and the racism comment is a rather careless one to throw, perhaps in frustration?
1. My comments on the ancient (pre Shinto) nature of OM was in specific response to Mantis 108 comments quoted above. Taking something out of context distorts
ideas. BTW Mantis 108 the foundations of 108 number theory is in Hindu and Buddhist astronomy... and by osmosis appears in many Chinese, Korean and Japanese organization of symbols and symbolism.
2. OM was/is the major vibration(its not the only one)- it absorbs many other also important vibrations
and regulation of breath. The physiology is shared by early Hinduism and early Buddhism- despite their very different conceptions of the self. In Vedic POV -one very old concept is the SabdaBrahman---the ********y basis of creation and maintenance of entities. The breath and realted sound POV shows in many localized adaptations insome specific aspects of Chinese and Japanese symbolism and practice. It is also there in Non-Hindu practices in India (Sikhism). There is mothing wrong with using what is useful.
3. The rise of nationalism-strictly speaking is not old as far as long run history goes....Shintoist symbolism was used by nationalists- I did not say it was the other way around. Religious symbo;ism has been useful in stoking the fires of nationalism in Japan, India(RSS/Ram rajya etc), Pakistan, the English reformation, East germany and Luther's address to german princes, Reagans use of the Calvinist Puritan image of America as a shining city on the hill. This does not mean that all Sintoists are/were nationalists, or all Lutherans were fascists or all Anglicans are for Rule Brittania or all Puritans are for a crusade in the middle east
or that all Muslims regard America as Satan.
Readinga compass does not mean we have to end up in the North Pole.
Of course the current interest in spiritualism Mat in Japan is not overwhelming.
One of the key features of the spread of "globalization" is economics. That was part of Mishima's)the late and famous novelist)frustration.
4. Still- I would have loved it if some young Japanese suggestions had been taken- to make "Sukiyaki" as the national anthem- it is a beautiful song-one need not be Shintoist to enjoy it. Enough-I type with one finger too.
Joy Chaudhuri

[Vajramusti]

Mantis 108 sez:
Ah, the "OM". I wasn't aware that it was from Shinto tradition. I naturally presumed that it was from Hindu tradition.
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Mat sez:SUU is a vibration (I know a vibration is a wave anyway but I look on it as a much higher frequency and lower peak) with a combination of closed and open mouth together. It is a constant, as opposed to the fluctuation of OM. It may be that the sect of Omoto-kyo took it from old OM beliefs (and may be subconsciously), but they always insist that it's Shinto.

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Mat also sez:---Japanese nationalism had a heavy dependence on Shintoism... but that deosn't mean Shintoism had a heavy dependence on nationalism. Omoto-kyo had a strong message of peace and the universal, and no belief at all in nationalism.

Unless you are suggesting that the Kotodama of Suu is directly taken from Om philosophy, I would cordially suggest that you don't actually need to mention Japanese nationalism at all. I appreciate your pride in Indian cultural history and also your lack of patience with imperialism of any sort from your own experience, but I am not being an apologist for Japan's or my own when I say that a knee-jerk response connecting Shintoism to nationalism in this discussion is perhaps in itself a little racist?

The few members of the Japanese public I've met who have the slightest interest in spiritual things are fully aware that most of their spiritual origins come from India through China. In fact in plain sight on their old graves they have the five elements of Chinese Taoism written in Sanskrit.
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Mat- Dont have time for a dissertaion- so I will touch on some beginning points and let it go. I am not given to knee jerk responses and the racism comment is a rather careless one to throw, perhaps in frustration?
1. My comments on the ancient (pre Shinto) nature of OM was in specific response to Mantis 108 comments quoted above. Taking something out of context distorts
ideas. BTW Mantis 108 the foundations of 108 number theory is in Hindu and Buddhist astronomy... and by osmosis appears in many Chinese, Korean and Japanese organization of symbols and symbolism.
2. OM was/is the major vibration(its not the only one)- it absorbs many other also important vibrations
and regulation of breath. The physiology is shared by early Hinduism and early Buddhism- despite their very different conceptions of the self. In Vedic POV -one very old concept is the SabdaBrahman---the ********y basis of creation and maintenance of entities. The breath and realted sound POV shows in many localized adaptations insome specific aspects of Chinese and Japanese symbolism and practice. It is also there in Non-Hindu practices in India (Sikhism). There is mothing wrong with using what is useful.
3. The rise of nationalism-strictly speaking is not old as far as long run history goes....Shintoist symbolism was used by nationalists- I did not say it was the other way around. Religious symbo;ism has been useful in stoking the fires of nationalism in Japan, India(RSS/Ram rajya etc), Pakistan, the English reformation, East germany and Luther's address to german princes, Reagans use of the Calvinist Puritan image of America as a shining city on the hill. This does not mean that all Sintoists are/were nationalists, or all Lutherans were fascists or all Anglicans are for Rule Brittania or all Puritans are for a crusade in the middle east
or that all Muslims regard America as Satan.
Readinga compass does not mean we have to end up in the North Pole.
Of course the current interest in spiritualism Mat in Japan is not overwhelming.
One of the key features of the spread of "globalization" is economics. That was part of Mishima's)the late and famous novelist)frustration.
4. Still- I would have loved it if some young Japanese suggestions had been taken- to make "Sukiyaki" as the national anthem- it is a beautiful song-one need not be Shintoist to enjoy it. Enough-I type with one finger too. No2 pencil treats me well.
Joy Chaudhuri

[mantis108]

Here's a very interesting read:

The Word (http://www.aikidofaq.com/philosophy/a_section12.html)

Hi Mat,


I don't know so much about it but briefly, the difference between OM and SUU is that OM is a wave that can be imitated from the wide open 'A' sound through the wide-mouthed 'O' sound and into the closed mouthed 'M' sound, and back.

I believe OM has all 54 sounds of the Sanskrit alphabet (half of 108) or so I have heard. It's also the representation of the Hindu trinity if I am not mistaken. This is of course a later developement.


This is found in Japanese arts too, as in the 'E'-'TO' of kendo (the uke's kiai is 'E' and the tori's is 'TO' - although you would think this is pretty different from the closed mouth OM, my kendo teacher explained it as the Japanese representation of OM - maybe the mouth position is simply because Japanese and its dialects don't really use a wide open mouth at all!).

I believe you are right. :)


It is also found represented on the faces of the Buddhist temple guardians in Japan, the Fudoo Myoo (which everybody over here attrirubutes to the Chinese). One of them always has the 'A' or 'O' face and the other is always 'OM'. The 'A' one is usually in an open expansive posture, like one open hand raised above the head and one down protecting its groin like one of the classic shaolin stances. The 'OM' one is usually in a tighter closed stance complete with closed fists or a weapon (often a representation thunderbolt). These guys have an associated element like lightning or thunder or wind and an associated weapon (but they vary and I can't think of any examples!). I've seen similar ones in Hong Kong.

Yeah, it would be Heng and Ha sound in Chinese. Some Taijiquan systems (Yang?) uses those 2 sounds. Vajra, thunderbolt, is the weapon of Indra, who is also the adopted guardian of the Buddhist faith. Thus we have Vajra Pranja Paramitta (the so-called Diamond Sutra) that is most important to Ch'an Buddhism.

Hi Vajramusti,


BTW Mantis 108 the foundations of 108 number theory is in Hindu and Buddhist astronomy... and by osmosis appears in many Chinese, Korean and Japanese organization of symbols and symbolism.

Actually, it's important to Hindu, Buddhist and Daoist. That's why I chosed that as my handle in the first place because I am quasi Hindu, Buddhist and Daoist. ;) 108 is definitely a very interesting number.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

2. OM was/is the major vibration(its not the only one)- it absorbs many other also important vibrations and regulation of breath.
Joy Chaudhuri

do you mean with conjuctive sounds like g'um , and gla'um?

om shrim krima glaum nama mrityora djothera krima glaum n'aom'aha!

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

It is! We were onto Shintoism! :)

heck! looks like you're off onto the meditation concerning the sound the last breath makes as it leaves the body! :cool: death-spirit way should be left for the dead and dying. there aren't any warriors preparing to die in this manner. besides if you listen quietly to your last sounds as your breath escapes it'll probably be gurgling noises instead of pleasant sounds. :D

[Mikkyou]

I thought it was Un and A not OM and A I know Un and A represent male and female deities in Shinto and local folk religions.I don't think anyone needs to study any particular religion when doing martial arts however,I feel a sense of spirituality,manners,and respect should be fostered to use martial arts as a tool to enlightment.

[Mr Punch]

Sorry Joy. I wasn't calling you a racist, I was suggesting that the automatic connection between Shintoism and nationalism should perhaps be (re)assessed. That's why I phrased the sentence as a question.

Of course, I would think you have a potential for some ideas that could be taken as racist, otherwise you're not human! And in the same way, so do I, though I try to hunt them down and confront my preconceptions as a matter of course. Your posts are always respectful and interesting, and I apologize for any slight.

Thanks for that link Mantis, I'll read it at leisure.

And yes, you're completely right about it being Un not Om. The perils of typing an answer at speed off the top of my head!!!

The A and the Un are of course the beginning and the end of the Japanese alphabet, and their meaning is also somewhat similar to alpha and omega, the beginning and the end etc.

YZDZ: I wasn't talking about death gurgles at all, but since you mention it, I intend to be singing arias when I pop my clogs! This is a good idea for two reasons; I won't worry the people around me cos I always sing like I'm dying: and, I don't know any arias, so I couldn't possibly die until I'd learned one! :D

BTW since you're talking about the onomatopaeia, in standard conversational Japanese 'suu' is the noise of someone eating noodles! If that's what created matter and life, the question is, who made them, and who was eating them!? :eek: ;) :cool:

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

in standard conversational Japanese 'suu' is the noise of someone eating noodles! If that's what created matter and life, the question is, who made them, and who was eating them!? :eek: ;) :cool:

well, amatara-"su" was roused from something when she decided to carve out a resting place for the bugs on the water.... :cool: :D