Tuition/contracts/fees - need advice

[ElectricVersion]

I'm new to Kung-fu, only been studying for about a month, maybe even a little less. There was only one Kung-fu place i knew of in my area so i did no shopping around at first. Let me tell you what the deal is with rates and costs and contracts there. i feel it may be a bit too much...

when i first went in, tried it out for a class or two, then signed up... $100 enrollment fee, and a 6 month contract at $100 a month, and a free uniform. i wanted to commit at least 6 months to it, so i went for it. why not.

so after a few weeks, i am selected for the "advanced program". students that are selected for this show hard work, determination, focus, etc. i'm sure everyone gets selected at some point. students get an hour class instead of the 30 minute class basic students get. the last half hour is spent doing forms and more applied stuff, whereas the first half hour is exercise, practicing blocks, stances, punches and basic elements.

for this advanced program... you sign another contract... this time $400 enrollment fee, and the tuition jumps to $150 a month. contract for 36 months. the idea is to set your Black Sash goal for 3 yrs and reach it with this program. they don't "promise" you the black sash, but they basically tell you they believe you can do it. they have no doubt.. etc. you know the deal.

belt tests also cost money on top of all that.

they have special programs they do from time to time, like 5 animal forms and such, and that's even more money. just seems like it adds up and adds up. money pit.

i had a good vibe at first at the school, but since i've learned more about it and seen more of the business end of it, i don't feel so great about it anymore.

how does this sound to all of you. how does it compare to how your school does things? does it seem excessive? any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[anton]

IN my books a class should last around 2 hours (especially for so-called "advanced" students). OK maybe beginners could get some benefit from a 1 hour class, but 30 mins is ridiculous. Also the prices they're charging sound quite high. I'm afraid I get the feeling you're being scammed mate. Just out of curiosity what is the name of the system they claim to teach?

[ElectricVersion]

Shaolin Long Fist is the style that they told me they teach.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Actually, everything that you mentioned in your post seems right on track. The Tuition you mentioned is right on track with industry averages (I know, because I teach martial arts schools how to become more professional).

As far as setting a goal for Black Belt/Sash within a few weeks? That is a responsible thing that your instructor did for you. Here is a stat: For everyday that a student in college attends class without selecting a major, he/she exponentally increases their chances of dropping out and quitting school. Pretty powerful, huh?

Get ready though, there are lots of schools that will tell you that classes should be $75 per month and your classes should be 2 hours long. I could post tons of info and stats to support shorter classes and higher tuition. But I think you get the idea. They don't tell you that their schools might be sub-standard or lacking a good 'cleaning' or they may have unprofessional business practices. Remember the old saying: "You get what you pay for." If a school only charges a little, it may be that they feel that their lessons are only worth a little. If you are a school owner that charges a little (less than $100 per month) then ask yourself the question, "are my lessons worth more or less than what I'm charging?" If you think they are worth less,....close your school now and don't look back. If you think they are worth more, than by all means CHARGE MORE. If you don't know how to do that or you need advice about your business, PM me. And leave an email address as well.

Bottom line is: Do you like your training? Do you feel like you are paying a fair price? Are you focused on your goal? If so, good. Keep on moving forward. If not, consider speaking to your instructor BEFORE you intend on quitting.

[Mr Punch]

They'd better be good, or you're really get shafted there pal.

With all due respect to Mike Parella who from his posting and his background seems like a straight-up geezer, I have to completely disagree, simply because, although his caveat that you get what you pay for is true, the business model that you described is little short of perfect for a McKwoon.

My advice: tell them you'd like to think about it for a wee while (tell them you're not sure you can give them the commitment they would need) and check out any other local schools. You said there were no more kungfu schools, so try karate, boxing anything.

Now, as a beginner, you're not going to know what's good and what's not, or even what's a good way of teaching and what's not, but it should help you to get a feel for it.

How many classes a week (at 30 mins each!) did you take before they decided on this special programme? And would the first $100 a month and $100 enrolment go towards the $150/mth and $400 enrolment? If the contracts run concurrently, you would then have paid $500 enrolment and $250/mth...?

Don't know about real pros like Mike Parella, but $100/mth is pretty standard across the board for quality from what I've heard.

[Mr Punch]

I could post tons of info and stats to support shorter classes and higher tuition. ...Cool. Can we see a couple please? Especially the shorter classes bit. Frankly, I think a 30-minute class is bull****, but I'm willing to be persuaded.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

By the way, what is the name of your instructor? Just curious..and what state is that, and what is the school name/website?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

We don't do a 30 minute class for adults. I think that is too short as well. We do one for kids though. Once they graduate to a different program the kids go to 45 minutes. The adults can go to 1 hour.

[Mr Punch]

An hour is OK, but even that seems a little short.

When I was studying for teaching, most studies showed an hour and a half was the optimum learning time for most people, after that you start to switch off. That was classroom teaching though. Maybe it's different for physical skills, but I would think that it would be longer, as you would need a while for the theory (ie the forms) then a different mental ability for application (drills and sparring).

Do you have any info on studies on class-length relating to concentration span, or were your statements based solely on business models?

[bigdoing]

100.00 per month. No belts. No contracts. If you want to buy a uniform its your choice (eveybody does). Tshirt 15.00 pants 15.00.

School is M-Thrs 3:30-9pm. Come as long as you want. Sat 9:30-5pm come as long as you want.

Its great, of course my Sifu is old school chinese, so that style of training doest not attract alot of people.

Most people need to be motivated in a group situation and pushed by competion to suceed in their goals, some will find a small school with a few students and have to work hard with out much puch from others, the bottom line is do you feel good after class?

If you want to run a school that produces income, then check lama pai sifus advice.

For me, when its time to open a school, thats the model to follow, but as far as me and training, sheet, there was a time I was able to go five days a week for a year and stay four to five hours a day for 100.00 and quality instruction.

[ElectricVersion]

i found another kung-fu place not too far from me in new jersey...

www.peterkwokskungfuacademy.com tell me what you think.

$95 a month, no contracts, hour and a half classes, and the workout space looks really big, nice & spacious.

[Mr Punch]

No evidence on that site that they're teaching a martial art. Depends what you want to learn for.

If you wanna be a badass I wouldn't go there. If you wanna pick up old women, may be the place for you! :D

[SevenStar]

first, 3o mins is WAY too short. Especially for all of the money you are paying. Second, they are taking a lot of cash from you. I'd be leary... very leary.

[mantis108]

30 mins too short you think? No, not if you are doing Taebo or cardio kickboxing. LOL.... :D

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Rokto_Obotar]

Southern arts northern arts definitly require hours not minutes. I just joined my school I go from 5-6 every day and 7-8 mon wed n fri for external martial arts and 7-8 tues n thurs for internal. I go weakends from 9-12 for mixed training usualy 9-10 for internal 10-12 for external. Sundays they have all sorts of different things. At my school you can sign up for 8hours a week external 8 hours a week internal or 12hours a week mixed. you have 30minutee clases paying 100$ a month? i pay 100$ a month and i get 48hours of training monthly.! (at home well lets just say im really into martial arts :)!). My advice find another school that you get at least an hour.

today im going from 7-9 insted of 5-8.

[ElectricVersion]

Thanks for all the advice guys. I definitely felt like it was way to much... I shouldn't have to pay extra to get what I should be getting anyway, (the full hour for example). Not to mention they have "special" stuff they give sometimes. Like, coming up is "5 animals week", where they have classes teaching (the basics i'm sure of) the 5 animal styles. Price for this.... $300. When i saw that on the sign up sheet, i was like "this school is definitely a money pit".

I am looking into other arts/styles (a friend of mine does Aikido and loves it) and at another Kung Fu school too.

For now, all i signed up for was 6 months at the $100/month rate, so i'll make the most of it, then transition into another school towards the end of the year.

Again, thanks for all the advice, and anyone else who wants to comment, please feel free. :)

[Lama Pai Sifu]

EV,

What is the name of the school and who is the instructor?

[ShaolinTiger00]

John Gruden is probably drinking a mojito on a beach right now laughing all the way to the bank..

[Spark]

i found another kung-fu place not too far from me in new jersey...

www.peterkwokskungfuacademy.com tell me what you think.

$95 a month, no contracts, hour and a half classes, and the workout space looks really big, nice & spacious.

Grandmaster in the art of kung fu???

Keep looking!

[SevenStar]

30 mins too short you think? No, not if you are doing Taebo or cardio kickboxing. LOL.... :D

Warm regards

Mantis108


you're absolutely right. tae bo is the real street lethal! :D

[yutyeesam]

Grandmaster in the art of kung fu???

Keep looking!

LOL


began learning the secrets of the Shao Lin Monks

LMAO

[yutyeesam]

What is the industry standard for private instruction, given by an

a. assistant instructor
b. senior instructor
c. master

my guess is $60, $80, $100 an hour, respectively.

[Ford Prefect]

From my experience, Lama Pai Sifu is dead wrong. Some good instructors that were in my area that charged less with no contracts, enrollment fees, and had great facilities:

Yang Jwing-Ming ($85/mo)

Boston San Shou ($75-85/mo)

Mistunari Kanai: 8th dan aikido and 10-year live-in student of Ueshiba. He passed away last year though. RIP ($75/mo)

Roberto Maia: Blackbelt in Brazilian Jiu-jitsu recieved in 1988 from Carlos Gracie Jr, who is Renzo's dad, at Gracie Barra. Was a regular training partner of Renzo and the Machado's. ($100/mo)

Judo w/Olympian Jimmy Pedro: (under $50/mo I believe)

That's just the people whose schools I visitted or trained at. There are other good instructors with good facilities.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Hey....I'm not saying that schools that don't charge enough don't have good facilities. Not at all! I'm saying that most schools that don't charge enough (compared to an industry standard) can't AFFORD nice facilities. Not all, most.

And by the way, our opinion regarding nice, is certainly subjective, isn't it? I used to like training in crappy places that we used to rent in chinatown. You wouldn't catch me dead, training in the same places today. I trained in my Sifu's little apartment and on the roofs in Brooklyn almost every day of summer. I wouldn't like to train there now.

And again, it's comparitive, isn't it? I thought my school 15 years ago was nice, until a saw much nicer schools. Know what I mean?

So, I'm not putting anyone down, I'm just making an observation. I've got $8500 worth of matting in the school I teach in. If I didn't charge enough, I couldn't afford to buy it, etc, etc.

[ElectricVersion]

clear something up for me. you find it funny they mention Grandmaster Kwok, and "learning the secrets of the shaolin monks..." is it because there's no way he can be a Grandmaster or have "learned the secrets", or am I missing something? Is it just cheezy and sounding like BS? I'm new to this, but if someone could explain to me why that's a sign to stay away from the school that would be helpful. "keep looking" and "LOL" doesn't help me learn WHY that's a bad sign. thanks. :)

[GreenCloudCLF]

I think it's amazing peoples views on this subject. Everyone wants to find a good instructor but no one wants to pay for it. I personally would rather train with someone who is good and pay them for their services. I would rather train with someone who is relaxed and has time to train than someone with a second job and worries about whether or not he can keep the doors open, or the lights on.

It is worth the money.

As for McKwoon theory, I think everyone agrees there are many aspects og Kung-Fu to train. I see no problem with holding seminars to cover material not featured in the regular class curriculum. I just learned a Gim form, this is something I would not have seen for sometime in my school, and guess what it was worth the money I invested.

I am willing to pay for the knowledge. My instructor chose to teach Kung-FU for a living, why shouldn't he be well compensated. Personal trainers who get good results can charge from hundreds, to even thousands of dollars, does someone who teaches weight training deserve more money than a Kung Fu instructor.

[Spark]

clear something up for me. you find it funny they mention Grandmaster Kwok, and "learning the secrets of the shaolin monks..." is it because there's no way he can be a Grandmaster or have "learned the secrets", or am I missing something? Is it just cheezy and sounding like BS? I'm new to this, but if someone could explain to me why that's a sign to stay away from the school that would be helpful. "keep looking" and "LOL" doesn't help me learn WHY that's a bad sign. thanks. :)

I don't know if they wrote that to be vague and a marketing tool, but to be a "Grandmaster in the art of Kung Fu" ... ???

If you look around here you'll see most people aren't impressed by people with titles that puff themselves up. Kung Fu as I know it is the word which encompasses all chinese martial arts, so to be a Grandmaster in "Kung Fu" kinda doesn't make sense to me.

And you'll see/hear that usually when someone says they learned some "secret" it's a BS marketing ploy to get you to learn from them and they'll always tell how they know the "secret" and once you're there long enough they'll show it to you ... but the years go by and by and by ... Almost there (a few more $$$), then I'll show you the secrets I learned from teh Shaolin monks!!

[tjmitch]

Where is this school located?

[ElectricVersion]

Makes sense to me. Yeah, looking around the net i even found a website addressing the use of titles such as Grandmaster, which are just bad english translations that are incredibly useful for marketing.

So it's kind of disenchanted me with martial arts places. I'm sure there is some "real deal" place around me, i just need to keep looking. What are some tips for identifying quality schools?

Since I've only just begun taking MA, i'm considering trying another style. I originally wanted to take Kung-fu, based mostly on how it looks. Very dance like, it can be tremendously aggressive and still awesomely graceful all at once. It seemed like more of a well-rounded, balanced art while most Japanese styles seemed like bits and pieces of Kung-fu.

A friend of mine takes Aikido at a school he really likes. Small place, converted garage studio, so it's all people that really wanna be there, no overmarketing or BS.

No harm training in some other style i suppose till i one day find a kung-fu school that seems decent. I may even like the new style and never look back.

thanks again everyone for pointing out the good and bad.. . this forum is very helpful.. i'm glad i stumbled upon it.

i live and work in the rockland/westchester county, NY area by the way. for anyone who is curious. :) anyone who knows schools they like around here, Kung Fu or otherwise, let me know!

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Electric Vision,

What school do you train in now? I know many instructors in NY, and I can tell you if I THINK they are worth it.

[yutyeesam]

"keep looking" and "LOL" doesn't help me learn WHY that's a bad sign. thanks. :)

Duly noted. Sorry EV. As my teachers have always told me, there are no secrets in martial arts. Anyone who tries to tell you that is probably out to scam you.

Hopefully Sifu Paralla can give you some leads on quality Kung-Fu teachers. You sound like a guy who really respects Kung-Fu. And the world of Kung-Fu can always use some more respectable folks.

Good luck in your search.

-123

[GreenCloudCLF]

Black Dragon Martial Arts (http://www.blackdragon2k.com)

In Bedford Hills,


Tell em Jason from Green Cloud sent ya

[zhugeliang]

Reviving this thread because I have questions about enrollment fees. Why do some places charge this and why do some places don't? What is the enrollment fee used for? Is this standard practice? Two gongfu schools I used to attend had no enrollment fees, but the classes were packed with no room to move. The one I am going to now has one time $100 enrollment fee and there is at most four students in a class (which is nice).

[BoulderDawg]

Reading this I did not realize this post was 3 and a half years old. I wondering if the guy found a good school and has stuck with it.

Anyway from what I've read the trend these days seems to be to get you in the door with a "basic" package then after a few weeks they say you qualify for a "masters" Advanced" "Whatever" program that cost a lot more. I say there should be no contract and all training should be included in the monthly fee. That's pretty simple. If the school is a good one the instructor does not have to depend on a long term contract.

[TenTigers]

It has nothing to do with whether the school is good, but that many students are flakey. Contracts insure that the student pays on time, and is consistant.
Rent,utilities, insurance, etc all need to be paid on time. Students who are flakey come one week, miss a few, come again, etc. Contracts maintain more than consistancy in tuition, they maintain consistancy in the training as well. You are less likely to blow off your classes if you are paying for them, which means you will be consistant, make time for your class, don't let little things get in the way. It helps prioritize your schedule. Your skill increases, and yuo will be even more motivated to train consistantly. They work together.

[BoulderDawg]

I don't buy that in the MA business any more than I buy it in the Health Spa industry.

It's true that a large number of students will quit after a month or two. However I don't believe the fact that they are locked into a year's contract makes much difference in that decision. That would make me have more resentment for a school that I already did not like.

The only difference I see is a former student saying "Yeah, I haven't been there in 7 months but I'm still paying so F those SOBs they will cheat you. Stay as far away as you can". As opposed to another student saying "Yeah I tried it for a couple of months with no long term contract and it just wasn't for me however you might like it."

[Drake]

Last I checked, you sign a contract. Nobody forces you to sign it. I agree that it keeps people coming. A friend of mine from back home told me the other day that it was remarkable how more attention he was paying in college now that he was paying for it.

From a business perspective, contracts are the best way to go, because it eliminates a lot of flakiness. Martial arts are a business, not a charity, and contracts are what keeps you in business.

[doug maverick]

clear something up for me. you find it funny they mention Grandmaster Kwok, and "learning the secrets of the shaolin monks..." is it because there's no way he can be a Grandmaster or have "learned the secrets", or am I missing something? Is it just cheezy and sounding like BS? I'm new to this, but if someone could explain to me why that's a sign to stay away from the school that would be helpful. "keep looking" and "LOL" doesn't help me learn WHY that's a bad sign. thanks. :)

it just sounds like a crock of sh!t. the site said he had five thousand years of experience what the hell is he immortal not to mention that shaolin is not even that old. plus on top of all that and any real master will tell you this, there are no secrets.at least not in this day and age. whats the name of the school your at now?

[Drake]

I figured it out. It's a typo. It's KROK, not KWOK. That explains everything.

Did the math (besides the outlandish 5000 year thing) with his training and school not add up, especially since he looks MAYBE 35 years old? It sounds like his head instructor is senior to him!

[Drake]

Oooooh...the plot thickens!!! Read the last few parts...

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=621