Help Save MA in Canada!

[reneritchie]

Section 83 (which governs prize-fighting and by extension any martial-art involving two-person contact of any kind except boxing) is being re-written in such a way as to make it illegal for any sparring or contact of any kind, including rolling or anything even vaguely martial. I've posted the forwarded details up ON THIS PAGE (http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=138&mode=&order=0&thold=0).

If you're Canadian, please lend your voice. If you're not, stuff like this has happened, and continues to happen in certain US states and elsewhere. Always keep your eyes and ears open.

[mantis108]

You can't find any more moron arround the world than those idiotic hypocritical double standard bull**** imbeciles and not to mentional criminals gathered at so-called Canadian parliment . They have nothing better to offer than to scratching their heads, picking their noses and playing pocket pool the whole day and then said "let's tax 'em and ban 'em all!"

They don't have a problem with goons sucker punching each other during a hockey game. In fact, they actually buys tickers to watch it and even comment on how these jocks are "Canadian heroes" in tax payer funded ground (parliment hill) and time. That to me is wasting my tax dollars!!!!!!!!

This is just typical ****ing second rate politics. There are more education value in martial arts in its entirety including sparring/rolling than ****ing class divisive double standard medieval complex plagued "prize fights". Yes, hockey is just another form of prize fight like so many other "sports". People gamble on them too in case no one noticed. I fear we can't really educate these idiots. I knew that Quebec government opposed NHB and UFC events. But didn't know that it's becoming a trend in the entire political landscape.

Sorry about the outburst but I am just freak'n have enough of the **** crap these imbeciles have to churn out. I am just tired of morons that don't exercise their major muscles between their ears.

Mantis108

SHIIT :mad: overloaded!!!!!!!!!!

[rogue]

Rene how does that law pertain to Wing Chun?


Sorry I couldn't resist. :D
Looks like the Nanny State is taking over a little more. Good luck in your fight Rene.

[David Jamieson]

prize fighting is illegal in a few provinces already. The reaons being there isn't any strong governing body to regulate it.

Having a bunch of toughman competitions is a little stupid ina nd of itself.

Boxing is still allowed because they have a strong cohesive governing body with standards, rulesets, insurance and the legal savvy to ensure that they aren't putting anyone in teh ring who doesn't deserve to be there.

this is not the case with pretty much all other martial arts promoters who for the most part have their event, get their dough, make a little name for themselves and move on without any regard for the peace and well being of the focus of the event which is the participators. IE: pay your fee and you can compete and we don't care that you don't have a standard in your chosen field.

If people seriously wanted prize fighting, then those with the ways and means would take the steps up to seriously pursue it.

If it is just a bunch of guys with a little this and that banging, then i don't think it's fair to call the politicians stupid for wanting to prevent that.

Yet another problem in the martial arts industry as a whole imo. No standards and just a bunch of people who say one thing, do another and cast aspersions on to those who don't see things or do things their way.

Can't get solidarity in the majority of your propogaters? You deserve to fail. Not so much a nanny state as it is a matter of accountability and responsibility. I don't see many martial arts schools or their headmasters wanting to take that accountability and responsibility and nevermind the costs associated with protecting your fighters.

If you're gonna do something, do it right and petitions from teh angry mob are tantamount to the screams and rants of a child.

Just do it right if you want it to happen. That is the path.

[mantis108]

I understand where you are coming from and I appreciate your view. You have some very good points there. But I don't call them stupid for nothing.

There's not be good will and intention demonstrated. Where the hell is the consulting process in redrafting the section? Why is it being redrafted in the first place?

Now, I run a business and I run a Kung Fu club renting facilities from the City. I know there is no free lunch. Politicians don't do initiatives without tangiable economy impacts both good or bad. That's always something somewhere for them. I have talked to local politicans as a matter of fact I know all three levels of politicans personally (not very close friends but ... ) in my area. I got hazzel by Stats. Canada all the time by ask what do I do, how much I make, and all but never got asked how do you feel about section 83 being redrafted.

My impression is that the cost, both human and economic, of everything is intented in the redrafting of this section, will be squarely laid on the end users. They are the ones who are off loading their share of responsibilities. Motive? To limit the scope of sports and therefore enable them to cut or limit future fundings for sports programs. Once the law is passed, it will take forever to revert it if that is even possible. It is a sneaky way to play with the budget but every dime counts. :eek:

At the same time, insurance costs for such "sports" are going to go up. You know I would have to paid about $1800.00 CAD (third person and all) for insurance just to get 52 session of Kung Fu sessions had I insisted that we do contact sparring. But I shopped arround and found that you can still be cover for $600.00 CAD kung fu as long as you are labelled as "Drama, Speech and Performing Arts". Who owns the insurance Co.? The banks. Who owns the politicians or vice versa? The banks. BTW, my insurance co. for my business would not approve an insurance policy without knowing the building code concerning the environmental impact thanks to another "political initiative". It translates to another hiest of my pocket.

No, Sir. They are not stupid. They could be ignorant, arrogant, double standard, two faced and all. But they are far from stupid. They just act stupid so that everyone will be suckered to think and "understand" how difficult it is for them to actually work for you. ;)

I am sure they learned something from hockey, which is inevitably coming back this fall. That is they can pull a fast one and people still cheer them all.

I thank Rene for bringing this to our attention. Without it, we will just be robbed of something great. BTW, the human and academic lost due to the redrafting will be immense. Can you imgine that all our Canadian Servicemen and Police forces are only allowed to train Boxing? All the suspects would either be shot or have bad urgly injuries received from the police "pugilism". Man, I can see a human rights law suit already. Smart politicans abusing tax payer money again, eh?

Warm regards

Mantis108

PS I have both RCMP and Servicemen come to Kung Fu looking for the alternatives to not box (not saying boxing is bad) on the street.

[David Jamieson]

hey m108, don't get me wrong here, i think anyone including politicians are fully eligible for the title of "stupid" :-)

I think that costs are costs and that if fund raising is what is required then so be it. But like I said, prize fighting is banned in a lot of provinces already and those that do have a loophole for it in the sense of kickboxing or muay thai matches such as manitoba and alberta are where to go for these types of tournaments.

Petitions in this matter have minimal impact, like anything it will be a few things.

1)money (always, money is a deciding factor on the survival of any endeavour)
2) infrastructure
3) significant public support

#3 can be attained through a show of solidarity in the arts and a press by everyone under a single banner to be seen, heard and allowed to pursue this endeavour.

#2 is a big one. There needs to be established rules and democratic process in this development as opposed to teh old way of "oh, he's a sifu who's been around for a while, let's make him president and because I am also from the same area of town, I should get to be honourary president" and so on down the line until you wind up with what you started with. That being essentially a closed exclusionist community of like minded folks who don't want a democratic process in teh production and implementation of an infrastructure that everyone can live within and abide by.

#1. Money is money is money. With enough of a push and legitimacy of points one and two, then people will pony up. I've seen it before, I'll see it again.


Mostly, the process of implementation is where people get muckled. They simply don't know where to start and have difficulty finding out what the channels are and the process is. That's cool, we can't all be artists and salesmen at the same time. But within our ranks are definitely both these types.

If you truly have the support of your own club, then branch out and make bridges with others. This is gonna be a bump at first, but if we can all lay down our predjudices long enough to get this going on, I think it can happen.

I would like to see a return to kickboxing, san shou, muaythai matches in Ontario. It's something, that although distasteful to the barney the dinosaur fans is quite a delight for the rest of us. lol

maybe if the hockey stick was taught as a weapon form it might get some ground broken? lol

[Mighty Scott]

Fight the man my northern brothers!

Go tell those stuck up pointy headed beurocrats to mind their own freakn' business and get their slime encrusted knarled hairy hands out of your pockets!

Mantis for President... err.. Prime Minister... ah... what the heck do you guys have up there?... Significant Office of Power!

Viva La Liberty!

[mantis108]

Your suggestions are very practical indeed. If these steps were taken earlier on, the other provinces might not have banned "prize fight" which is a term that I believe is coined with political bais in the first place. Philosophically speaking, prize fight (having a purse) can loosely be applied to any sports. It is just too broad. Especially when Olympics events were mostly fighting "arts" at some point in time. Unless they plan to ban the Olympics wrestling, Judo, TKD, (Karate?), etc.. as well, to me they are not practical to use the term prize fight to label any martial arts or sports. I think it would be upto those practitioners in the other provinces to work on this infringement of their basic rights to excel as a human being (yet another human rights issue). Hack, I am all for making it a consitutitional challenge. :D

You are right about money can buy you anything these days including your basic rights. ;)

It is true that MAists sure should have a better infrastructure in place. I know that I would have to "become" a sport in order to join national sport organization to grow further. But I refused to do that just because I can have some funding in exchange for people, who knew little about the art, looking over my shoulder telling me what I should or should not do. I would rather have a MA organization that understands the works to help us grow.

As for public support, the popularity of NHB and UFC events is a great proof of that already.

Hi Mighty Scott,

Thanks for the vote. :D My 1/3 Daoist conscience will not allow me to sleep at night had I become a politican. I simply just don't have the bottomless thick skin, invisible black heart, and titanium stomach to survive public scrutiny. lol...

BTW, Jet Li could have used his image to become the spokesman of CMA had he built some MA capital like Bruce Lee did. I believe that will further public support for CMA in general. But he has always limited himself may be due to his background as PRC Communist party trained athlete. He properly don't have the stomach for it either. BTW, Jet Li came to Hollywood because the HK movie industry was going down hill (pirating, emmigration, brain drain, etc...). It's purely encomonic reason IMHO.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[mantis108]

Your suggestions are very practical indeed. If these steps were taken earlier on, the other provinces might not have banned "prize fight" which is a term that I believe is coined with political bais in the first place. Philosophically speaking, prize fight (having a purse) can loosely be applied to any sports. It is just too broad. Especially when Olympics events were mostly fighting "arts" at some point in time. Unless they plan to ban the Olympics wrestling, Judo, TKD, (Karate?), etc.. as well, to me they are not practical to use the term prize fight to label any martial arts or sports. I think it would be upto those practitioners in the other provinces to work on this infringement of their basic rights to excel as a human being (yet another human rights issue). Hack, I am all for making it a consitutitional challenge. :D

You are right about money can buy you anything these days including your basic rights. ;)

It is true that MAists sure should have a better infrastructure in place. I know that I would have to "become" a sport in order to join national sport organization to grow further. But I refused to do that just because I can have some funding in exchange for people, who knew little about the art, looking over my shoulder telling me what I should or should not do. I would rather have a MA organization that understands the works to help us grow.

As for public support, the popularity of NHB and UFC events is a great proof of that already.

Hi Mighty Scott,

Thanks for the vote. :D My 1/3 Daoist conscience will not allow me to sleep at night had I become a politican. I simply just don't have the bottomless thick skin, invisible black heart, and titanium stomach to survive public scrutiny. lol...

BTW, Jet Li could have used his image to become the spokesman of CMA had he built some MA capital like Bruce Lee did. I believe that will further public support for CMA in general. But he has always limited himself may be due to his background as PRC Communist party trained athlete. He properly don't have the stomach for it either. BTW, Jet Li came to Hollywood because the HK movie industry was going down hill (pirating, emmigration, brain drain, etc...). It's purely encomonic reason IMHO.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[mantis108]

Now, I got proof to my calling 'em stupid. ;) :D

Stupidest Goverment Award (http://news.yahoo.com/s/cpress/20050723/ca_pr_on_en/laughs_stupidity_awards)

Mantis108

[HearWa]

So I actually went and contacted one of the people who work for the MP in my area (New Brunswick, the MP is Andy Savoy). Here's the e-mail reply I got:


Hi Dustin. Yes, this is federal legislation. However, as I read it, the government is considering revisions, and has not actually stated what the revisions will be at this time. The current legislation actually prohibits martial arts as prize fights, so the revisions might actually improve the law.
My advice to you is to put your suggestions for possible revisions in writing and send them to us as a letter. Our mailing address is:
(The address was here but I'm not sure if this is private information so I snipped it. I don't need a lawsuit.)

If you would like to meet with Mr. Savoy to discuss this further, I could make an appointment for you in our Woodstock office on Tuesday, Aug 2 at 4:30 p.m. Please advise if you would care to have this appointment.
Thank you
(Snipped to protect his or her identity)
Office of Andy Savoy, MP


I really don't think I could do anything influential in this area so I may just pass this onto the Sifu of the school I study under.

I may write the letter though. I'm not sure what I should suggest for revisions... it's a confusing matter and I know nothing of politics. I suppose I'll have to read the current Section 83 law and just brainstorm my own revisions? One thing I'll need is their exact definition of a "prize fight" to clear the water of any misconceptions on my part.

Also, I may spread the word to the other local martial arts schools around the area.

[David Jamieson]

Hey m108

why not take that aspect of your artform that can be adapted as sport within a framework of that sports expression and have that as a seperate offering from the greater body of your martial art offerings.

Scale it down, tighten it up, fit it into the framework and voila! You have a whole new thing to explore and refine and to offer to people who wish to explore the sportive combative and to also gain a background in traditional chinese martial art.

I think this is one of the ways that the various pai can survive intact, and still play with each other and to use core material to enhance those skills and practices that are found in the sportive combative aspect of martial arts.

common ground needs to be created so that everyone can meet on the same terms. The arguments and politics of pais are destructive to the overall body of traditional martial arts and in fact are one of the biggest turn offs to potential studiers of them.

People want to feel involved and a part of what they are doing from the get go. I have too many times seen students become disheartened because of where they stand in the heirarchy and so on. I think it is these internal quirks of each pai that causes that pai to lose it's students and membership and to remain small in scope and of course to eventually die off. It's happening now, it's happened before and it will continue to happen until change is made.

remember that old saying "Tell me and I may forget, Show me and I might remember, involve me and I will understand".

imo, there is too much show and tell in tma and not enough active involvement of the student body. The venue of applied tactical will allow people to see what sort of mettle they have early on. Many school in mma, MT, JJ and others use this approach and have their students actively using their skills in less than a year.

Too many tma schools do not allow this outlet to their students and ergo, the student never gets involved with what they are learning beyond the ideas and concepts and practice of shapes in a strict monitored and controlled environment which isn't practical or realistic in the sense of what it is they are being taught.

for those people who only want to learn form, qigong, yoga, and so on that's cool too, but it should be offered as enhancment as opposed to martial ability applied.

[mantis108]

I hear you. :)

I actually have done what you are suggesting since couple of years ago. In fact, I have shared some clips of what we do for sparring on the KFO mantis board before. It got a luke warm reception. Let me know if you are interested in seeing some of those.

Our current sparring formats includes the following:

1) 3 rounds of 5 mins with 1-2 mins break. Stand-up, clinch and ground.

2) 2- 3 mins rounds with 1 min break. 1 round of stand up striking kicking only, 1 round of standup and clinch/Chin Na and takedown, 1 round of stand-up, clinch and ground.

We usually do the first format in house. But we would do the second format (modified) for visitors who do not inclined to go to the ground. I have to say that the ground component is a mixture of traditional Mantis and BJJ (roughly blue belt level knowledge at best). We have about 3 traditional ground forms in our mantis style.

You are right about tightening up and understanding the game. It has been working very well for us. This is part of the reason why we have interests from bouncers, police, correction services, and soliders to come and train because it is deemed as more realistic. Not saying that we are the only and that good but up here, it would be a blessing to find something decent. :) I have heard from some of my students that even Toronto don't have something like this to offer.

Right now we are offering drill base instead of form base training. There are some forms that are unique and important to our style that I will still teach. But I have limited them to about 4 at the most. The theorectical core still remains mantis in nature IMHO.

That's what I have been doing for the past few years in a nut shell. ;)

Warm regards

Robert (Mantis108)