Fukien White Crane Wing Chun ?

[Firehawk4]

How is Fukien White Crane Wing Chun different than other Fukien White Crane arts ?

[Shaolin Master]

If you mean Yongchun County's He Quan (Crane Fist) as compared to He Quan (i.e. Ming, Zong, Shi, etc) then it would be simply that Yongchun county's art tends to hold a larger array of technique whereas the others don't necessarily. However this not necessarily a good thing as the others have tended to specialise in the jing aspects and key principles. Whereas in the original the abundance of content have not necessarily laid the emphasis in that direction. Time then plays its test and the results become different. Fact is that there are very many core concepts which are common to all. In the end they are all just as great which depends upon the depth of the teaching rather than the art.

[TenTigers]

From what I have heard from aomeone who is in China now, and training in Wing Chun, he says that they call ALL Wing Chun- Wing Chun Fukien Bak Hok.
It seems that only outside of China are we such experts that we are aware of the difference!

[Shaolin Master]

Guangdong Yongchunquan and Fujian Baiheyongchunquan are kept quite distinct. I have been there (Yongchun county in Fujian) and to Foshan in Guangdong. There is no mistaking the nomenclature......It is even referred to separately in all official records.

[Firehawk4]

Are saying Fukien White Crane Wing Chun is not considered the same art as Wing Chun from Kwangtung ? What are some of the names of the forms and techniques in Fukien White Crane Wing Chun ?

[Ben Gash]

Wing Chun/Yongchun white crane is the crane system attributed to Fong Wing Chun. It may or may not be one of the root arts for Wing Chun, but it is very definitely Fujian Bai He, and distinctly different to Wing Chun.
Good to see you around again Shaolin Master (like your new front page), I've missed your input. BTW you're not set up for PMs.

[Shaolin Master]

Firehawk,

some sets of Fujian Yong chun county white crane:
San Zhan, Shi San Tai Bao, Chuan Xin Zhong, Mei Nv Shu Zhuang, Da Qian Zi Da etc,....

Ben,

Hi ...not a regular but I browse when I find time.....I'' try to set up PM...

Regards
Wu Chan Long

[kung fu fighter]

Hi,
Can someone list what all the concepts, theories, and principles are in the Fujian and fukien white crane systems with some explanations and examples of how they work in applications.

[Shaolin Master]

Your question requires you to go and study with someone. It would take too long....and I would not be bothered to write hundreds of pages to explain when you should find and ask a/your teacher. In addition any explanation would be limited to a single variation, experience and practice is the only way to understand the below.

<<<"all" the concepts, theories, and principles with explanations and examples of how they work in applications. >>>>

Apologies

Regard
Wu Chan Long

[kung fu fighter]

Hi,
Just a list of the Theories, principles and concepts of Fujian and fukein white crane would be great! I not interested in studying the style per se, I just want to compare it's understanding of them to what we have in wing chun.

Regards
Kung fu fighter

[mufty]

Hi, Just a list of the Theories, principles and concepts of Fujian and fukein white crane would be great! I not interested in studying the style per se, I just want to compare it's understanding of them to what we have in wing chun.

Regards
Kung fu fighter

I agree with Shaolin Master, you must study the arts under teacher 's who have the knowledge. In fact even many years of study may not help you understand all the diffrent principles and concepts between Wing Chun and Bahei.

Also when learning any martial art under a teacher you are only getting their point of view regarding these principles. You must travel to Fukein and search for your own research into this facinating subject.

I am from an Okinawan Hakatsuru and karate background, but my study has taken me to Fujien Bahei which I have been studying for a few years now, I am lucky to have a friend who studies regulary in China. But I intend to visit and study, soon.

The interesting thing here is seeing the obvious similarities, and understanding that the principles are actually the same but described in diffrent ways.

I was under the impression that Wing Chun was very close to Bahei ?

Is this true ?

[DRleungjan]

I was under the impression that Wing Chun was very close to Bahei ?

Is this true?

Hey there mufty,

You know? I have been hearing of the possible connection of Wing Chun to Fukien Bak Hok Kune (Baihei) for a couple of years now. As far as concrete evidence is concerned...I don't know if anything new or noteworthy has been found. One thing is for sure, there are allusions everywhere to the Crane in Wing Chun, from the legends of Ms. Yim Wing Chun or Nun Ng Mui watching the snake vs the crane to the hands and principles behind the art. So if you look at it in that view then, hey, there might be more than meets the eye!

Just some humble thoughts. :)

(If would definitely be nice if a multi system reseach could be undertaken to verify certain connections. Hmmm...has a cross-lineage research ever been done on this subject?)

[mufty]

Hey there mufty,

You know? I have been hearing of the possible connection of Wing Chun to Fukien Bak Hok Kune (Baihei) for a couple of years now.......... there might be more than meets the eye!

If would definitely be nice if a multi system reseach could be undertaken to verify certain connections. Hmmm...has a cross-lineage research ever been done on this subject?[/i])


Thanx for that DRleungjan.

It would be very nice to have a research group that could be un-political, and objective, so we could get our teeth into the facinating subject.

When my m8 went to China many moons ago he actually went to train in Wing Chun, and when he asked around for a Quan, he found himself in the Fujiban Baihe Quan. While there he lernt to speak the lingo, and was told by the Teacher that Wing Chun was an historical branch, from Baihe. He has been travelling to China every couple of years ever since.

I feel that maybe 'White Crane' is proberly the connective tissue so to speak because of the fact that the Shaolin taught White Crane during the period in China when the Chinese were trying to kick the Manchurians out. Due to the fact that the White Crane techniques were the quick and easy essence of a civil defence system.

Whats you view?

:)

[DRleungjan]

I feel that maybe 'White Crane' is proberly the connective tissue so to speak because of the fact that the Shaolin taught White Crane during the period in China when the Chinese were trying to kick the Manchurians out. Due to the fact that the White Crane techniques were the quick and easy essence of a civil defence system.

What's your view?

Hmmm...let me see if I can spew some stuff of my head here...since I'm at work and am pressed for time...

Yes mufty I agree, according to what I have read and a little conjecture on my part, White Crane IS the connective tissue between either Honam Siu Lam/Fukien Siu Lam and Wing Chun. The Qing Period in Chinese history was a very tumultuous time. There was not too much time to produce fighters in 10 to 20 years as would have been the norm. Even when one looks at Wing Chun's principles one sees the 'get to the point and stop beating around the bush' nature of Wing Chun. According to lore it is even stated that Ng Mui might have been a 5th generation practioner of White Crane...at least I read some where that the White Crane lineage charts state so...but don't quote me on that one. Lei Man Mou a leader in the Taiping rebellion and member of the Red Junk Opera Troupe was also said to have been a White Crane practitioner. Wing Chun is heavily connected with the Red Junks. So you see the connection IS there at least in theory.

A good site to visit is Rene Ritchie's site at www.wingchunkuen.com. It is loaded with information.

To borrow from Jim (I hope he don't mind) 'Gotta run!'

:)

[mufty]

Hmmm...let me see if I can spew some stuff of my head here...since I'm at work and am pressed for time...

Lei Man Mou a leader in the Taiping rebellion and member of the Red Junk Opera Troupe was also said to have been a White Crane practitioner. Wing Chun is heavily connected with the Red Junks. So you see the connection IS there at least in theory.

A good site to visit is Rene Ritchie's site at www.wingchunkuen.com. It is loaded with information.

To borrow from Jim (I hope he don't mind) 'Gotta run!' :)

Cool thanks for that DRleungjan. If my memory serves me right is not the name Wing Chun named after the training hall that Lei Man Mou practised at the Northern Shaolin Temple befor it was destroyed ? or have I lost the plot ? and getting a bit mixd up.

I will visit the site cheers.

When you get time I would be very interested in more of your views and info cheers m8 :)

[DRleungjan]

If my memory serves me right is not the name Wing Chun named after the training hall that Lei Man Mou practised at the Northern Shaolin Temple befor it was destroyed ? or have I lost the plot ? and getting a bit mixd up.

Yes mufty, memory is a tricky little devil isn't it? Well, let's see. The famous Wing Chun Din was more probably at the southern temple. [More probable would be that this famous hall might have been located at the Honam Temple and it's ideas spread southward to the southern 5 Elders, but that's just speculation on my part. Although I'd prefer to hear what an expert would say on the subject. Actually there was a very well written article by Sal Canzioneri based on the subject at hand.]

It is were, according to a version of Wing Chun lore, the Wing Chun system was originally devised by the Southern Siu Lam elders. Elders such as Jee Sheem, Miu Hin, and Ng Mui might have developed and perfected the different animal techniques and deviced, what I would like to term as, a proto synthesis of what was later to become Wing Chun Kuen. After the burning of the southern temple the system was propagated along the (in)famous Hung Suen or Red Boats. Lei Man Mou was a member of such a troupe. When the rebellion that he pertained to failed and the opera disbanded, the system was spread thoroughout the different regions of southern China. One of it's most famous recipients being the city of Guang Jau or more commonly known as Canton.

I hope I have cleared the waters up a bit. :)

[mufty]

Yes mufty, memory is a tricky little devil isn't it? Well, let's see. The famous Wing Chun Din was more probably at the southern temple. [More probable would be that this famous hall might have been located at the Honam Temple and it's ideas spread southward to the southern 5 Elders, but that's just speculation on my part. Although I'd prefer to hear what an expert would say on the subject. Actually there was a very well written article by Sal Canzioneri based on the subject at hand.]........................... :)

Thanks for that 'DRleungjan'

I found some old research that ties in with what your saying.

'It is belived that Abbot Gi Chin taught a fluid agile short ranged style called Waquan (Flower Fist) at the 'Forever Spring hall' in the Fujian Shaloin temple.
Hence the name Wing Chung (Forever Spring).

have you herd this ??

regards Mufty

[DRleungjan]

'It is belived that Abbot Gi Chin taught a fluid agile short ranged style called Waquan (Flower Fist) at the 'Forever Spring hall' in the Fujian Shaloin temple.

Have you heard this??

Hmmm...yes, as a matter of fact if, I am not mistaken, Wong Kiew Kit has stated something to the effect that Fa Kuen (Waquan) was practiced in the Wing Chun Din. He also has stated that there were two main halls in Siu Lam. One was the Hall of Lou Han in which Lou Han Kuen was taught. Lou Han Kuen was considered to be a 'hard' or external art. The other was the 'Wing Chun Din' where Fa Kuen was taught. And like you said Fa Kuen was said to be a 'soft' or internal arts.

But go figure mufty, Ji Sim Sin Si was also credited with being a Siu Lam Tiger style practitioner and to have been especially proficient with staff techniques. Btw, the staff techniques which became the Luk Dim Bun Gwun or 6.5 Point Pole techniques are said to have been derived from Ji Sim through Wong Wa Bou while Ji Sim went into hiding on the Red Boats and taught it's opera troupe members.

:)

[mufty]

DRleungjan Thanks for that it all seems to be comming together??? :confused:

You know that Tiger and Crane are closley related, but the crane was more easly accesable to to the general public as sivl defense system, during the the occupation of China by the Mancurians? Im old now so not to sure.

I come from an okinawan backround, and understand the link between China and Okinawa, and have been studying Bahi He quan. My teacher says that I look like an Okinawan doing White Crane, but He knows That I have been practicing for over thirty years.

I know the connection between the Shaolin spear fighting and have been practicing Bahi he Gun (white crane sticK) and have realised that the Okinawan Bo kon Kata are are a defence against the spear and staff techniques of the Shaloin quan. We have practised together and have seen the connection between the Okinawan Kobudo kon and the Chinese Bahi he gun.

I am slowly realising the connection, and am begining to understand the connection between the Okinawan Hakatsuru and the Chinese Bahi he (White Crane Techniques) especially Sanjan. Sanjan seems to exist within all schools of martial arts.

Do you practice Sanjan 'DRleungjan'?

What are your stepping methods

and what is your breathing cycle

and what is the centre of tension in your sanjan?

Do you prctice Sanjan ? if so what are your perspectives on this important form/dance

You know I just Love the Martial arts

[DRleungjan]

DRleungjan Thanks for that it all seems to be comming together???

Hey mufty...I hope I'm not confusing you further with x-tra info! :(

And like it was stated earlier the connection between all of the above is definitely the Fukien Bak Hok Kuen. As a matter of fact there are two styles (that I know of) that carry the Saam Jin within their curriculum. These systems are the Fukien White Crane and the Five Ancestors fist. And yes the Fu-Hok (Tiger and Crane)! ...even Hung Ga Kuen has the famous Tiger-Crane set refined and brought together as a single entity by Wong Fei Hung. As far as Crane being used as a civilian defense system?...I'm stuck on that one also...I don't think I have heard of that, but I'll try to resesearch further.



Do you practice Sanjan 'DRleungjan'?


I don't think that I practice Saam Jin as you know it. What in my observation comes close, if it isn't derived by it, is our moving horse or the Chum Kiu set of the Wing Chun system.



What are your stepping methods

The Chum Kiu as I practice it has angular stepping, foward stepping, and a couple of kicks mixed in. Sorry for my vagueness but I am still learning the form. Maybe one of our more veteran residents here can give us a hand.



and what is your breathing cycle


Breathing is suppossed to be very relaxed and natural. Now the closest I can observe as far as a cycle is concerned would be when executing a technique one breathes outward and upon completion/retreat/transition of technique one breathes in. You would also notice that this little facet in itself can build internal energy...what you might call Ki...or Hei in our lingo.



and what is the centre of tension in your sanjan?


Hmmm...I believe and can say that the Dan Tin or the Navel Region is the center which stablelizes the whole body. Combine this with a proper erect spine and you have a pretty **** good horse!



Do you prctice Sanjan? if so what are your perspectives on this important form/dance?

Indeed...Saam Jin seems to exist ESPECIALLY in many of the southern Gung Fu styles.

To rehash the above. What is Saam Jin? Since my only art is Wing Chun I am looking at your question from a Wing Chun perspective combined with my limited knowledge and recent observations. As matter of fact, the closest I can come across is our Chum Kiu form. If you have the opportunity check a vid clip and the Wing Chun Chum Kiu and compare it with the Bak Hok Saam Jin Kuen (Kata). They are very similar from my observations. An important facet that I perceive within this form is good posture and a stable horse. And one of the keys to this is the developement of the Dan Tin region which also leads to good internal developement. Ah and last but not least a factor that I almost forgot! ... footwork/mobility is built thru our Chum Kiu.

Hey mufty thanks for the convo...it has actually rekindled my interest into a bit of research again. It's good to rehash things that one overlooks or tends to forget. :)

[mufty]

Hi ya DRleungjan

No im not confussed by your information its just nice to talk to sombody about these historic things.

I would very much like to know if (Saam Jin) is similar to the Fujiban Bai he
'San jan'.

Dose moving horse refer to your stance? as we use sanchin (sanjan dachi), yep angular stepping sound about right. But like I mentiond do you stay in a Horse stance? throughout the dance. You know there is an Okinawan karate kata called Tensho, and I have seen some Wing chun dance that is very similar.

Breathing is interesting, as it derives Ki - Chi - Hei as you say this is very intrinsic within the Oriental martial arts.

We also concentrate our tension from the Tanden (Tanjien), but I have found that the main diffrence between the Okinawan Hakutsuru and the Chinese Bahi he quan is the final position of the body, the spine seems to be more erect in the Bahi He method.

I apriciate that your look at this from your wing chun point of view as this type of discussion becomes interesting from diffrent perspectives. Cool :cool:

Do you know any history regarding 'Min Chin Chu Quan' or somtimes known as Pan ki noon ? As I have found in my research that this was the forunner of Luechi Ryu karate as practised on Okinawa. Apparantly it incorperates Crane - Tiger and Bear. It would be nice to hear what you think.

Thanks for chatting. :)

[mufty]

Hey guys

Do any of you have any forms that link to the White Crane ? if you do let us know what they are, and which techniques relate directly the crane system.

Mine are many:-

Sanjan
Hakatsuru
Paiho
Sasan
Konshiwa
Baihe gon

Some also incorperate Tiger techniques.

Do you incorperate your Crane techniques into your Jundan and Chisau ?

I look forward to hearing from you all.

:)

[DRleungjan]

Hey mufty,

Is is indeed a pleasure when one is able to sit around a coffee table and sensibly discuss martial arts and their relations to one another. ;)

The answer to the first question is a tad easy...LOL. Saam Jin is just a cantonese transliteration of Sanjan/Sanchin so it is the same, at least to my knowledge. Most of the time if you see me write something that I know I would usually render it in it's Cantonese romanization unless I know it by another name. Just a little nuisance on my part...hehehe.


You know there is an Okinawan karate kata called Tensho, and I have seen some Wing chun dance that is very similar.

Heey...hmmmm...good question. Yes, a proper horse must be maintained throu out forms practice. It is essential that one maintains a horse through out. You see, my sifu has a nice euphamism for the Chum Kiu (he's the first person that I have ever heard to use the euphamism). The form is a mobile form with constant stress on keeping a horse. He calls it 'Riding the Horse' because without a proper horse you are already missing a valuable component to not only hold yourself in a fight, but also on the execution of pwoer. This is just as I understand it. As far as the Tensho form you are expressing...are there any vid clips out there that I can see out there to compare to?


We also concentrate our tension from the Tanden (Tanjien), but I have found that the main diffrence between the Okinawan Hakutsuru and the Chinese Bahi he quan is the final position of the body, the spine seems to be more erect in the Bahi He method.

Yes, alignment of the head, with spine, and pelvic area is emphasized for the proper execution of techniques. To use other people's explanations 'it is almost as if you are suspended by a string'. Plus remember that the body needs the to keep the 'energy' channels open so that one is able to properly release energy at the end of any given technique. I guess this is another concept that would tie Bak Hok Kuen and Wing Chun together...and some other southern arts so to speak.


Do you know any history regarding 'Min Chin Chu Quan' or somtimes known as Pan ki noon ? As I have found in my research that this was the forunner of Luechi Ryu karate as practised on Okinawa. Apparantly it incorperates Crane - Tiger and Bear. It would be nice to hear what you think.

Interesting! I haven't heard of that. Thanks for that info. I will have to do a little research on that.


Thanks for chatting.

Any time brother. As long as I have a tad of knowledge on the subject I am eager to discuss and learn in the process. :)

[Shaolin Master]

For your simplicity:

Uechi Ryu is from Zhou Zihe's Fuqing Huzunquan
Goju Ryu is from Xie Zhongxiang's Minghequan

There are over 12 Styles of Fujian with San Zhan in them.

Huaquan of the south is Gan Fengqi's Huaquan but its methods do not resemble YongChun (Wing Chun) in any way. Hequan is the mother of Yongchun, but Yongchun developed its own uniqueness over time.

5 Elders legends are based on novels (no county historical records are in accord with the story, this does not mean that they were not true as much as it is doubtful that they were real). Taiping rebellion is in the north mainly not south.

Regards
Wu Chanlong.

[mufty]

For your simplicity:

Uechi Ryu is from Zhou Zihe's Fuqing Huzunquan
Goju Ryu is from Xie Zhongxiang's Minghequan

..&.. There are over 12 Styles of Fujian with San Zhan in them.

This is very interesting thank you I shall research a little further with regards to this. Thank you.




Huaquan of the south is Gan Fengqi's Huaquan but its methods do not resemble YongChun (Wing Chun) in any way. Hequan is the mother of Yongchun, but Yongchun developed its own uniqueness over time.

As dose all, we all develop from the small planting of a seed.


5 Elders legends are based on novels (no county historical records are in accord with the story, this does not mean that they were not true as much as it is doubtful that they were real). Taiping rebellion is in the north mainly not south..

Yep quite right, however the Shaolin did move South, during their exile, and they also taught the people their system of crane, which as we know derives from their complete system, and is said to be quicker to teach.

I find it interesting that also many schools have a long stick form, this is of course the shaolin were renouned for their prowess with the spear.

:)

Regards