Calculus for wing chun "Steiner Point Theory".

[Ali Rahim]

This is one of the many concepts that will be shown on our new DVD's. The “Steiner Point” (advanced calculus) is a point located within a triangle such that the distance from a point to all three vertices is minimal. This concept is an example of optimization with respect to minimization. Does your wing chun use this concept applied both to your triangular offensive and defensive structures? how do you work on getting the most out of your wing chun, with the least amount of movements? Here is a diagram that I made explaining this theory.

"Diagram" (http://www.detroitwingchun.com/stheory.htm)

I came to this conclusion in 1996 that’s when I started fighting this way... Here is a simple understanding for those who may not understand...

When you hear me speak of positioning and structure,, what I’m talking about is somewhat like standing in the middle of a tornado,, outside of the tornado is very wild and unsettling but inside it’s like a regular day but without the sunshine... If the hands is held high near the face (outside of the tornado) and someone throws a punch at your midsection and when you bring down your hands too block the shot,, the travel distance for the block is over worked,, therefore by the rules of the “Steiner Point Theory”,, or math, that block is insufficient do to it’s travel time...

That’s like having two generals in one fort and you are being attack from all sides, but you put both of your generals on the west side of the fort,, leaving the rest unprotected... Sometimes you my feel that you are protected, but when it comes down to action by your structure being off line you will have too over work your wing chun,, in most cases to the point of wildness... If your wing chun techniques are smaller then your opponent’s then you have greater odds of winning...

If someone has a knot of hundreds too give away would you turn two flips and do a hop, our just walk up and reach out your hand and say thank you...

Here I’ll do my best too brake it down... Jacob Steiner invented the “Steiner Point”... Make any kind of triangle Isoceleles, Scalene or equilateral. The point inside the triangle (imaginary ball),, possibly somewhere in the middle of the triangle, this ball will measure the minimal combined distances of the ball to all three vertices of the triangle.

Just as I make a defensives move my structure never retracts backwards unless I have too adjust my timing,, based on how ever my offense or defensive structure stands upon vectors or energy coming in on my centerline or offense and defensive structure (but try not too move the feet)...

I will hold that position which I have gained and not think about taking over my opponents structure,, simply because my opponent is taking the fight right too me,, all I have too do is stand my ground, if it’s the offense or defensives structure or upper and lower triangles, pretty much based on the rule of trying to never step backwards,, while all along keeping my defensive structure in a position (“The Steiner theory”) where I can get a jump on his offensive structures with timing while never losing any ground and keeping my opponent from gaining ground which seems like the Zero point theory...

Simply by threading forward or with jamming type energy, techniques such as yut fook yee or with da, no matter where my structure falls I will keep the same attitude optimizing and minimizing my offense and defensive structure...


This way I can find large opening in my opponents’ structure, eliminating large movements such as vectors or energies on my part. By understanding this theory (“Steiner Ponit”) you would not have to move your feet that much.

Ali Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://www.detroitwingchun.com)

[Mark Swiadas]

Hi Ali Rahim,

I'll start by mentioning that I have a Bachelor's of Science in mathematics. Furthermore, my background in the study of math is admittedly far more extensive than my background in Wing Chun (I use the word "extensive" in relation to a person's usual course of study. I realize that my knowledge of math is limited compared to other students of the subject... some of whom might post on this forum). Also, although I am partial to statistical analysis (and design of experiments, in particular), I have a general understanding of calculus (traditional, multivariable, and differential), geometry, trigonometry, linear algebra, and mathematical proof/logic. I also studied physics to a lesser extent.

It seems to me that, if you hadn't made any references to a Steiner Point, you could have gotten your opinion across every bit as clearly and concisely as you did. It would have been sufficient to reference the center point of a triangle. Trying to tie mathematics in with Wing Chun will always leave your arguements with an aftertaste of pseudo-mathematical inaccuracies (or worse, patented falsehoods), and the "Anti-Theorists" of the crowd will accuse you of creating a new technique called "Wing Chun Man Grasps at Straws". Furthermore, I would be cautious of referring to Steiner Points as "Advanced Calculus". It is certainly determined through calculus... But advanced, it is not...


Having said that, let me be the first to say...

IF IT WORKS FOR YOU, MORE POWER TO YA! That's all that really matters.

--Mark

[Ali Rahim]

Good post:

You are entitle to you opinion,, but I insure that the info: that I have,, was reviewed by students and professors of W.S.U math department here in Detroit Michigan,, and I am sure there will be some following up on this thread… thanks for your input… It was the professors who called it advanced calculus,, not me,, they just help me put it together in theory... I took calculus in high school and the Steiner Point was never bought up in any of the classes,, until the collage level...
Have anyone study the Steiner Point while in high school???

Ali Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Mark Swiadas]

Hi Ali Rahim,

I suppose you could call it "advanced" because it IS taught at the college level. In a general case, you would need to be able to apply double integration (once for each axis of the two-dimensional object in question, assuming uniform density). This is made simpler in the case of most triangles, as it can be layed along the axis, so half of the solution is simply integrating along the axis itself. It WOULD be more advanced with particular types of triangles, but an example of such a case would not be necessary as far as theories of general efficiency are concerned.

Furthermore, I would not question your interpretation of the Steiner Point Theory, and from my perspective, it was accurate insofar as you wanted to proceed with it. After all, a theory is meant to be used as a launchpad for ideas (accepting that the launchpad could be closed down at any time, of course). If you get ideas on how to apply your Wing Chun in a better way by reading about Steiner Point theory (or reading books by Dr. Seuss, for that matter), it doesn't matter what anyone says.

[Fresh]

I bet steiner point theory and advanced calculus would have really helped all those taxi drivers, restaurant workers and common people. :eek: :p :D

[Ali Rahim]

Now we agree with the fact that it is an advanced level of math,, contradictory to what you said earlier…

But you said that it has no efficiency for understanding wing chun fighting approach… Check out how efficient it is in application,, just go windycitywingchun.com (http://www.windycitywingchun.com) then click on movies,, scroll down to video clips that says 4.6mb you will see the “Steiner Point” theory in action…

Which Fong calls the zero point theory,, which help describe my post to a “T”…

Mark said:

If you get ideas on how to apply your Wing Chun in a better way by reading about Steiner Point theory (or reading books by Dr. Seuss, for that matter), it doesn't matter what anyone says.

On that note,, I guess it’s nothing else to say… Oh yeah,, reading The Cat In The Hat can really hurt your wing chun,, I feel you should know that..

Cheers

Ali Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://www.detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Rahim]

I bet steiner point theory and advanced calculus would have really helped all those taxi drivers, restaurant workers and common people. :eek: :p :D

Are you implying that most common folks are ignorant?? Shame on you…

All Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Mark Swiadas]

Hi Ali Rahim,

"Now we agree with the fact that it is an advanced level of math,, contradictory to what you said earlier…" AR

I said that there are individual cases that would be fairly advanced. When discussing the general symbolism inherent in triangles and their relationship to Wing Chun, there is no need to work with one of those more advanced scenarios. Furthermore, the diagram you provided was NOT representative of an advanced case... I believe your example WAS ideal for the discussion at hand, precisely because it allows the viewer to focus on the underlying theme of the discussion without getting bogged down in mathematics. I was simply cautioning against using terms such as "advanced calculus" on a martial arts forum, where the line between "normal" and "advanced" (particularly in regard to mathematics) can be blurred. For example, I do not consider double integration of a linear function or partial derivatives to be "advanced", because I've solved differential equations with Laplace transforms and found centers of mass of three dimensional objects using triple integration of trigonometric functions (none of which, I might add, has helped my Wing Chun). An algebra student, on the other hand, may find traditional derivation using Newtonian calculus very "advanced" (whereas you, who took calculus, would not).

I will also touch on the attemped logical implications one might deduce from your post, namely that I held one position, I have contradicted myself, and I now hold your position, making your position the correct one. I will assume for the time being that said implication was entirely coincidental, and you were not attempting to "put words in my mouth" in a passing manner in order to bolster and validate your own subjective rationale. If you had done so intentionally, it would be an entirely disingenous contribution to the discussion at hand.

"But you said that it has no efficiency for understanding wing chun fighting approach…" AR

I referred only to the more complex case. I can elaborate that any understanding gained from observing the simple case would not be increased by attempting to examine the complex case. As to whether observation of ANYTHING will improve a person's Wing Chun, that depends on the person in question.

I reiterate, the purpose of my post was not to correct your statement of Steiner Point Theory, which was accurate insofar as you examined it. Furthermore, I cannot say that Steiner Point Theory IS or IS NOT a productive model for improving one's Wing Chun (to do so would be to tell someone how to think, a demand which is impossible to uphold).


"you will see the “Steiner Point” theory in action… Which Fong calls the zero point theory,, which help describe my post to a “T”…" AR

Again, if it works for you, that's what matters. I think of Zero Point differently. And I doubt that Fong thinks of Zero Point in the same way either of us do (to his credit, in my case).

--Mark

[Ali Rahim]

Mark Said:

Furthermore, I cannot say that Steiner Point Theory IS or IS NOT a productive model for improving one's Wing Chun (to do so would be to tell someone how to think, a demand which is impossible to uphold).

I 'm a Teacher,, that’s what I do,, I tell my student what to do and how to do it…
If that’s not the case,, then why would my students come to me for advice on their wing chun,, if they can learn it all by them selfs???

And there is no way,, that am teaching a math class here,, anyone can see that...

Hey what happen to this?

If you get ideas on how to apply your Wing Chun in a better way by reading about Steiner Point theory (or reading books by Dr. Seuss, for that matter), it doesn't matter what anyone says.

Again, if it works for you, that's what matters. I think of Zero Point differently. And I doubt that Fong thinks of Zero Point in the same way either of us do (to his credit, in my case).
--Mark


Old Jong Said:

Ali-
You seem to talk about the same thing my Sigung (Fong) calls the "zero point" concept.
My Sifu ,Patrick Gordon, wrote an article in Kung Fu /Tai Ji magazine about this. (Jan./Feb 2003 issue)


__________________
-Michel.
montrealwingchun.com

Cheers

Ali Rahim.

P.S. Sorry if I misunderstood your post… :confused:

Mark Said:

It is certainly determined through calculus... But advanced, it is not...

Mark said on his next post:

suppose you could call it "advanced" because it IS taught at the college level.

mark said:

Again, if it works for you, that's what matters.

On that note,, I guess there is nothing more to say…

Ali Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://www.detroitwingchun.com)

[Mark Swiadas]

Hi Ali Rahim,

Though the conversation could be ended here, I want to make sure you don't feel I'm butting heads with you, as that is not what I set out to do. I think that by and large, we agree on many of the points of this discussion.

An analogy I might draw to our discussion is one of cooking. You've posted a recipe on the forum, and let everyone know that it was given to you by a master chef. And you're letting us know how good the food is when you follow the recipe, and that you think some of us will like it, too. I'm just saying that in the end, it doesn't matter who gave you the recipe or how fancy the ingredients are, what matters is that the food tastes good! But at the same time, we all have to accept that other people might not like the food as much as we do, or they may feel you can make tastier food with a different recipe. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't all write down your recipe and try it at least once. =)

Happy cooking Ali, and thanks for the discussion!

[Ali Rahim]

Hi Ali Rahim,

Though the conversation could be ended here, I want to make sure you don't feel I'm butting heads with you, as that is not what I set out to do. I think that by and large, we agree on many of the points of this discussion.

An analogy I might draw to our discussion is one of cooking. You've posted a recipe on the forum, and let everyone know that it was given to you by a master chef. And you're letting us know how good the food is when you follow the recipe, and that you think some of us will like it, too. I'm just saying that in the end, it doesn't matter who gave you the recipe or how fancy the ingredients are, what matters is that the food tastes good! But at the same time, we all have to accept that other people might not like the food as much as we do, or they may feel you can make tastier food with a different recipe. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't all write down your recipe and try it at least once. =)

Happy cooking Ali, and thanks for the discussion!


Hey Mark: You are a cool guy and you do have a valid point (about “the Steiner Point”)… My recipe is only for my students,, and my hospitality is there for those who wish to have a plate… There is no harm done,, I just love to discuss wing chun,, take care…

Ali Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://www.detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Rahim]

When trouble shooting my wing chun,, I use math,, because math doesn’t lie… Just like any scientist theories concerned with motion,, time and space,, they use number to find their theories to be correct or wrong… It will make your wing chun subtle and small… The Woo Fai Cheng system structures and applications fits right in with physics,, calculus and geometry… Just my opinion from watching my students fighting skills develop tremendously from these concepts… By all means this is not the “Bible”… just another opinion that I have first hand experience in,, nothing more…

Ali Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://www.detroitwingchun.com)

[doc]

Hello, I’m a math professor’s assistant @ W.S.U. here in Detroit. I’ve been a student here for over nine years and do work in the math department, but have not seen this until now. Now bio-mechanics go hand in hand with math and is a good fitting for any martial art discussion forum. Mr. Rahim post is without flaws, as far as the math, but the wing chun, I’m not sure of, for I’m a beginner in Aikido. What he speaks of is totally correct. :)

Good job! :D

Ray

[Ali Rahim]

Thank you Ray,, for your input...

Ali Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://www.detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Rahim]

This is how we use the “Steiner Point” with offensives penetration;;

imagine two triangles with the vertices facing each other (tips of the triangle), kind of like an hour glass but without the curves,, by you holding your ground as your opponent enter with an attack...

The two triangles will merge developing chum on your part,, this is when the “Steiner Point Theory” changes position moving to the tip of your triangle..

Then all of your offensive movements will be just inches from your opponents mother line, and boy can you get a lot of power from that point...

Fighting this way can make you quite aggressive (The Steiner Point theory),, but in a very scary soft way…

Attention to all:: don’t get me wrong it’s good too move your feet with the “Steiner Point theory”,, but only after you have bridge contact,, so you wont get confused about your next offensive move,, so the feet can follow the hands with chum…

“Stay with what comes and follow what goes”… This way you remain close with full power,, “Old School” wing chun,, at least the “Leung Sheung” (Yip Man's first Hong Kong student,, for those who did not know) way of fighting… This way you waste no time or movements.

Ali Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://www.detroitwingchun.com)

[PaulH]

I think you should check again to see if your Steiner point is that defined in mathematics. The steiner point is quite complex in its geometric construction and is often located outside the vertices of the triangle.

[Ali Rahim]

The steiner point is quite complex in its geometric construction and is often located outside the vertices of the triangle.


You’re 100% on the money!!!

There is many different ways to use the “Steiner Point",, not just with triangles but with oval shapes,, octagon and many more different varieties of shapes…

The "Steiner" Point is always within a shape when you first learn the concept,, specially before going three dimensional… To put this with bio-mechanic,, I must come as simple as possible,, with basic understand or fundamentals dealing with this concept…

I learned or was introduce to the “Steiner Point",, using only the triangles,, that’s why I’m using the “Steiner Point",, within my fighting system,, because triangles was the first shape I was taught to use in this concept (“Steiner Point")...

That’s why when you see a diagram of the “Steiner Point" triangles is always in the middle of the diagram,, because it is usually the first shape you work within that concept ("Steiner Point”)…

It is the easiest shape to understand this concept with,,
and it works well with my fighting structure,, the triangle...

Ali Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://www.detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Rahim]

“Steiner Point”

By all means this is not the “Bible”… just another opinion that I have first hand experience in,, nothing more…

My recipe is only for my students,, and my hospitality is there for those who wish to have a plate…

The key to this whole concept is to keep it simple as possible and do not complicate things,, so “everyday people” such as myself,, can understand it…

Ali Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://www.detroitwingchun.com)

[Fresh]

Are you implying that most common folks are ignorant?? Shame on you…

All Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)
Not me! But it might be ignorant to assume that every wing chun person is a student or prof of mathematics at W.S.U. in Detroit Michegan. :p :D

[Fresh]

“The key to this whole concept is to keep it simple as possible and do not complicate things,, so “everyday people” such as myself,, can understand it…

Ali Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://www.detroitwingchun.com)

So you use advanced calculus to teach it? Its okay if you do, its just really funny. :D :D :D

[Ali Rahim]

Not me! But it might be ignorant to assume that every wing chun person is a student or prof of mathematics at W.S.U. in Detroit Michegan. :p :D

I'm sorry,, I think you misunderstood... LOL!!!

Doc said:

But the wing chun, I’m not sure of, for I’m a beginner in Aikido. What he speaks of is totally correct.

He indicated to me (doc),, that one of his buddies seen this on this forum and that he (doc) should check it out ,, and he was impressed!!! (Via e-mail)...

Ali Rahim.

[PaulH]

Your theory has some tactical merits, but it would be better to avoid confusion with the Steiner point of the Swiss mathematician.

[Fresh]

I think you should check again to see if your Steiner point is that defined in mathematics. The steiner point is quite complex in its geometric construction and is often located outside the vertices of the triangle.

I looked up a little about it and it looks more complicated than the drawing in Ali's link. I wonder how long it would take to calculate real Steiner points while your in the middle of a fight.

[Ali Rahim]

The key to this whole concept is to keep it simple as possible and do not complicate things,, so “everyday people” such as myself,, can understand it…

keep it simple.

keep it simple.

keep it simple.

I learned or was introduce to the “Steiner Point",, using only the triangles,, that’s why I’m using the “Steiner Point",, within my fighting system,, because triangles was the first shape I was taught to use in this concept (“Steiner Point")...



Ali Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Rahim]

I looked up a little about it and it looks more complicated than the drawing in Ali's link. I wonder how long it would take to calculate real Steiner points while your in the middle of a fight.

A tenth of a second or way less If you choose to receive and work with the understanding or info:

Ali Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://www.detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Rahim]

So you use advanced calculus to teach it? Its okay if you do, its just really funny. :D :D :D


It’s always good to laugh,, nothing wrong that…

Check this out… I’m so happy,, I mean real happy… Because I went and bought a brand new,,, 2005 Mercedes Benz,,, windshield Wiper Blade… Now I can wipe
my black as* off!!!

I don’t feel that most people are dumb as you think they are,, I give credit to anyone learning the simple fundamentals of this concept,, the “Steiner Point”…

which is this,, "Bang"!!! (http://www.detroitwingchun.com/stheory.htm) Now if they can’t understand that,, then they are really dumb for real…

Ali Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://www.detroitwingchun.com)

[doc]

It seems to me, that the replies that you have on this thread, are replies that did not review all of your posts carefully. Mainly from those who don’t have any background on this subject. What brings me to that conclusion is that, no one discussed the Stiner Point in greater detail such as in a way that you did. It is true that your simple definition of fundamentals dealing with the Steiner Point is correct. No funs intend, but you seem to put a bad taste in people mouths dealing with this subject, because how simple can you get. You must be the “Bad Guy” on this forum. ;)

Ray

[PaulH]

http://www.css.tayloru.edu/~bbell/steiner/

Ray,

Check out the Steiner point for an equilateral triangle and compare it to Ali's. I hope it meets your academic standard.

[Ali Rahim]

http://www.css.tayloru.edu/~bbell/steiner/

Ray,

Check out the Steiner point for an equilateral triangle and compare it to Ali's. I hope it meets your academic standard.

LOL... LOL... I knew this was coming,, someone would go on the internet and show a diagram that is to complicated to understand for beginner and don’t understand it themselves,, stay with the fundaments,, once again which is this…
THE VERY BASIC OF THE BASICS (http://www.detroitwingchun.com/stheory.htm)

LOL... It almost seems to me that they think I have no education in this background… Well,, I do fit the profile,, LOL…

Ail Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://www.detroitwingchun.com)

[PaulH]

Just wish to state thing as it is. :) It's important to know the classical definition before we can interpret them with other also valid assumptions.

P.S. The beauty is that there is a hidden simplicity in complexity or order in chaos. It's highly educational if not entertaining to know the other hidden side in all phenomenon under the WC sun. Here is another valid graph of the classical steiner point.

http://faculty.evansville.edu/ck6/tcenters/class/steiner.html

[doc]

Those documents are good, but far to advance for what’s going down on this thread. Mr. Rahim is right, you must stay with the basics and the fundamentals of the Steiner Point when using bio-mechanics.

Is anyone reading his posts or what? This is turning into a comic book! Using a diagram is good but only when you understand what you’re seeing, in this case it is very understandable that you don’t, so why even try to debate it, when you don’t have a the full understanding? It will work, if you just stay with the basics.

Ray

[PaulH]

Most educated reply, Ray! As I don't have the full understanding needed on this topics, I leave you to tackle properly the full complexity of the Steiner point. :)

[Ali Rahim]

Just wish to state thing as it is. :) It's important to know the classical definition before we can interpret them with other also valid assumptions.

I have no problem with that... You want classical definition; here is classical definition…

You can get with THIS (http://www.detroitwingchun.com/stheory.htm),, or you can get with THAT (http://faculty.evansville.edu/ck6/tcenters/recent/parry.html)... You can get with THIS (http://www.detroitwingchun.com/stheory.htm),, cuz THIS (http://www.detroitwingchun.com/stheory.htm) is where it’s at…

It’s always nice to discuss with you...

Ali Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://www.detroitwingchun.com)

[doc]

Most educated reply, Ray! As I don't have the full understanding needed on this topics, I leave you to tackle properly the full complexity of the Steiner point. :)


Thank you for the complement. Complexity has no room on this thread, Mr. Rahim is doing just fine all by himself. It’s true; this is where it’s at. Diagram (http://www.detroitwingchun.com/stheory.htm) :)

I believe strongly that truth will never show herself as a lie (a saying that we use in math).

Ray

[Airdrawndagger]

I have been following this thread and it is becoming more and more annoying, the more people try to take what IS a great insight and atempt to tear it down or discredit it in an attempt to pound on their own chest to try to prove something...

Ali,
Thanks for sharing the steiner point with us, I tried it yesterday in class and did realized that with correct form and timing, the steiner point theory will already exist, but with you pointing this theory out I have become aware of its existence and can use it as a point of reference.
I also found your website to be VERY informative and helpful. Thank you for sharring so much information and I look forward to seeing more!

I do have a question for you though that is off subject.
I have recently started studing qigong in my spar time and noticed that you are a practicioner of this art. My question is how has qigong helped with your training and understanding of Wing Chun? This perhaps is a question that probably requires its own thread, but before starting a new thread I wanted to make sure that this subject holds its own validity.

Thanks,
Airdrawndagger

P.S. -- Engine, Engine, number nine. On the New York transit line. If my train falls off its tracks... Pick it up. PICK IT UP! PICK IT UP!!

[Ali Rahim]

I will reply to your post as so as I can,, in detail… I have a lot of work to do at the moment,, you asked a good question and I will reply as soon as I can,, Thank you

Ali Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://www.detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Rahim]

Ali,
Thanks for sharing the steiner point with us, I tried it yesterday in class and did realized that with correct form and timing, the steiner point theory will already exist, but with you pointing this theory out I have become aware of its existence and can use it as a point of reference.

Thanks,
Airdrawndagger

P.S. -- Engine, Engine, number nine. On the New York transit line. If my train falls off its tracks... Pick it up. PICK IT UP! PICK IT UP!!

Thanks!!! Here is another person,, and a good fiend of mine and one the best wing chun practitioner that I know of,, that feels the same way (Mike) (http://www.montrealwingchun.com/philosophie.htm)... Near the bottom,, with blue pants and white stripe…,, he is teaching his students…

You know what’s up,, “We are the Black Sheep”!!!!!!!!

Old Jong said:

Thanks Ali!...I already can see benefits from your approach.
Talk to you soon!... :cool:
__________________
-Michel.
montrealwingchun.com (http://www.montrealwingchun.com)