MA and group politics

[SPJ]

We all know that in MA circles, there are always groups of people.

Sometimes due to personal differences in interpretations of the arts or just personal want to have more say in a particular art. They split and do not want to talk to each other.

If you are not part of a group or just want to be independent of any group, your name or personata will be smeared by the groups.

Unavoidably, there will always be partitions of any groups in any MA circles.

On the other hand, there are also good stories of coming together and merge.

Such as at the end of 19th century and the dawn of the 20th century, Tai Chi, Ba Gua and Xing Yi came together.

The question is that it is necessary to be in a group or one may practice on his or her own once done with the studies from the teachers in a group.

Politics in MA.

Is it a personal choice or just can't do within and can't do without?

:confused:

[SPJ]

This is a venting or ranting thread of any good or bad politics in MA.

:D

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi SPJ,

Here is my contribution to your discussion:

All organizations or groups will eventually splinter in some manner. It is in the nature of men. Most organizations grew out of a previous one. Organizations in time inhibit a person’s creative expression. This is interesting because organizations are founded to foster creativity by providing a structured means of learning. The disease that follows is this: The members of the organization eventually forget (or never really understood) that the organization was born to nurture growth and development. The members begin to blindly follow the "truths" and/or "false truths"(i.e. "the rules") of the organization; the purpose of which they no longer understand. These RULES, then, become more important than the information they were meant to communicate. When the circumstances become intolerable some individuals splinter off. Those who seek individuality, creative expression and truth cannot long endure a restrictive environment.

Another reason for splintering is politics. Every organization has an hierarchy. Those in control seek to maintain control. Those who do not "TOW THE LINE" are ostracized and will eventually either conform or leave. This has occurred within every major organization. The Chinese have a Saying, “A thousand monks, a thousand religions." Each person has their own ideas and seeks to express those ideas. Individuals will always splinter off when they do not believe that their ideas are respected or appreciated within the group. Then they create their own organization that others will eventually splinter off from as well.

These circumstances are easily observed and are consistent within the history of all groups and organizations. As just one example: O Sensei, the founder of Aikido, splintered off from his instructor and was roundly criticized by others, but his art has spread wider than his instructor's ever did. Since O Sensei's death in 1969 there are splinter groups of Aikido in every country. People seek to express their own creativity or they may feel stifled by the organizational structures that do not fit their personality. These kinds of people seek to expand beyond the organization's confines.

That does not mean one should not participate in groups or organizations. It just means there may come a time when one can no longer play the game of that particular group and still remain true to himself. The search for truth and personal expression is unique to each person and each person has their own path, but each journey follows similar routes. Each must make their own decisions about how they are willing to fit into any group or organization. However, all organizations are by definition confining and limiting to growth. It is possible to be WITHIN a group or organization, but not OF it. The Hindus use the example of the lotus flower. Its roots grow in stagnant cesspools, yet the flower rises above the muck to blossom in the sunlight.

[SPJ]

Cool post and observation.

I have a lot of political pressures from groups all the time. I think this would happen to other people, too. I mean MA circles related.

One day my brother asked me that what I was doing? I said that I was reading my MA notes, and rewrite or add some new stuff.

Since the late '70, I have a habit of writing CMA essay or journal everyday.

My brother SK said that what it is good for?

I said Huh. After a pause, I learned that it is only good for me. If I died, my notes die with me. What my brother meant is that I have to share. But everytime, I shared with my brother. He would scratched his head and said Da Ge (big bro') it is too deep. I rephrased it. It is still too deep.---

Then I realized that everything has to be explained in plain language and with illustrations or live examples so that most people will understand.

So I started to rewrite my notes or journals in plain language so that other people may understand.

My previous notes are in old Chinese. They are 4 or 7 words sentences. Whenever I run into old words, I put a modern or colloquial words next to them.

And yes, I have notes on all the drills, moves, and forms from styles of CMA I practice.

:D

[David Jamieson]

I've had several ma teachers in jma, kma and cma.

For various reasons I have left them all.
I continue to practice and diligently.

I don't look down on anyone who undertakes practice of martial art.

But yeah, I see a lot of bitter. :p

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi SPJ,

I think it was a good idea to re-write your thoughts and ideas for the purpose of making them more accessible to others. I also agree with using illustrations and stories to make your points more understandable. It is important for others to see how your thoughts and ideas apply to their daily lives. Sometimes when we have studied for many years, and our knowledge grows fuller and deeper, we forget the times we didn’t understand. Ideas and concepts that seem simple to us now may not be so understandable to those who are beginners. I have found it beneficial to try to address people according to their personal worldview and experiences.

Knowledge that cannot be shared effectively does no one any benefit. So when we wish to communicate our ideas it is helpful to find ways to make the information easily understandable by others. I try to use examples and illustrative stories that are relative to each person’s worldview or perspective. For example an Engineer will have a different manner of perceiving and experiencing the world than a teacher or a nurse. The method of discussing an idea or concept would take the form favorable to each individual according to their way of thinking. Each person has a unique upbringing, value system, personality and educational background. These contribute to the persons unique world view. By discovering the way an individual relates to his world we can tailor out teachings according to their perspective. We are conforming our expression of information to the individual’s ability and manner of understanding instead of expecting them to conform themselves to us.

To me this teaching method is similar to the cultivation of a garden. We do not expect plants to conform to the gardeners will! The gardener cannot force growth; plants grow according to their own nature! The best gardeners understand the nature of their plants and do not attempt to force them to grow according to their own desires, but cultivate the plants by creating an environment that allows the plants to grow according to their own natures. Just a s each plant grows according to its own nature, so to people!

[SPJ]

In the MA circles, there are many politics.

It is very difficult to be alone. I have challenges in fight. If you say something in MA, people will call you out and "prove" it with your fists and not your mouth.

You talk with your fists and not your mouth or just shut up.

:D

[SPJ]

Scott;

Good insights and analogy.

The student/teacher relationship is a very personal and tricky issue.

For example, the teacher A taught the student B. The student started to learn with the teacher C without telling the teacher A.

How long a time the teacher holding the good students in Dojo before the students may go out and teach?

---

[David Jamieson]

Scott;

Good insights and analogy.

The student/teacher relationship is a very personal and tricky issue.

For example, the teacher A taught the student B. The student started to learn with the teacher C without telling the teacher A.

How long a time the teacher holding the good students in Dojo before the students may go out and teach?

---

the student / teacher relationship is apparently subject to the interpretation of the participants while the framework is prety much entirely governed by the teacher.

It is skewed nowadays. Been there, lived it, tasted worse as time went by and I finally spit it out fully in the end and am better for it. No time to waste on that sort of pursuit anymore. I think we shield ourselves from reality and true meaning by placing ourselves into these perceptions.

It may work out for some, but in my personal experience and observation, the majority of people don't care for those realtionships that are said to be this but in fact are dominant/supplicant as opposed to truly nurturing of the line of study.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi SPJ,

Part of the problem is the Asian teacher/student relationship is not as productive in western countries as western forms of teaching. We do not have the thousands of years of Confucian and cultural indoctrination that provides a foundation and world perspective that supports this form of teaching and learning. The very foundation of American life is equality of individuals. To submit to another in the Asian manner is not very popular or effective here. We even call our bosses and supervisors by their first names. This is because our social status is considered equal even when our work environment allows for specified stratification!!

The American psyche is founded on individuals going their own way and doing their own thing. The proliferation of MA schools in the west makes it less likely a student will adhere to the formal Asian mode of learning when he can learn the same thing quicker and within a western style atmosphere else where. One of the reasons I quit attending an Aiki-jutsu class was for this reason. I had been training in the MA for more years than most of the advanced students and had been training in aikido for 5 years prior to attending the class. But the method of instructions was so traditional I was not even allowed to correct the movements of my training partner when he would perform the techniques poorly. He would practice the techniques incorrectly for up to 30 minutes and sometimes he would even endanger my safety. But I was expected to be silent and let him learn on his own, and for what useful purpose? NONE!! His learning curve was slowed down and my safety was endangered for the sake or tradition!! Why would anyone choose to train in this manner when they can learn the same thing at another school, quicker and with less risk!!

As far as being called out to fight!! Just ignore them!! Who cares what idiots think! If they disrupt your class, call security or the police. That is what they are there for and that is what society expects from it citizens. Fighting can be a training aid, but the last person I would fight is someone who called me out!! I don’t care what they think! If I win they are likely to take me to court if I hurt them anyway because that is how children behave.

[SPJ]

Understood.

There are more tricky issues. For example, if your teacher teaches more young students. And you also teach new students. Your teacher's students are on the same level of "social" status as you. Usually, there is a Chinese character to name the status. Such as heaven, earth and people or Tian Di Ren.

If I am the Tian Zi Bei meaning heaven character generation in the discipleship, and my students will be the next generation of the discipleship or Di Zi Bei.

If my students defeat my teacher's young students, there may be face saving issues. etc.

Yes, you are right. Nowadays, there are not a lot of guardian/guardee relationships any more.

The social status is only indicating what years or what generation of discipleship from the first teacher.

:D

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi SPJ,

If your instructor has new younger students wouldn’t you be considered the older brother and doesn’t that elevate your social status? I don’t know, but that is how I thought it worked.

I see you point regarding the complications of teaching superior students to your instructor’s. Embarrassing ones instructor can cause some serious complications I am sure! My understanding is that the Confucian ideal is for one to accept their place and conform to the responsibilities of their social status regardless of personal abilities, not seeking to promote oneself beyond their station! However, in modern western thinking we seek to always improve (generally speaking) our social position!! Here we do not have the cultural pressures to “know our place”! We have the freedom to move between social classes, but here it is normally determined by ones economic or educational status!