? on Primordial 32 posture Tai Tzu Chang Chuan

[Royal Dragon]

Does anyone know where I can find a chart on this form? I am looking for one that can actually be worked out into the set so I can play with it.

I have the chart from General Qi Jiguang, but it's not anything that can be worked out into the form. Does anyone know where I can find a workable document of this set too? Are they one and the same?

I'm also looking for info on each of the 32 postures, and thier applications and their guiding principals to further my studies, if anyone knows where this info can be found.


Thanks,

RD

[gfx]

I don't think QiJiGuang's 32 fist methods is the same as TaiZu ChangQuan. Taizu is said to be created by Zhao GuangYi, the founder of Song dynasty. QiJiGuang lived at the end of Ming dynasty, hundreds of years later.

However I do believe that the 32 fist methods is not a form in itself, but a collection of general offensive/defensive principals. Just study them carefully and incorate these ideas into your own strategies.

[Royal Dragon]

Most Tai Tzu lines consider Qi Jiguang's 32 postures to be one of the pivital forms in their styles evolution.

However I do believe that the 32 fist methods is not a form in itself, but a collection of general offensive/defensive principals. Just study them carefully and incorate these ideas into your own strategies

I'm actually looking for any sort of documentation on both if applicable. Written manuals on each of the 32 postures, and thier uses would be ideal (offensive/defensive principals), especially if they are in english so I can read them.

[gfx]

Here's the interpolation given by YiuMingSheng in his book 32 Killing Fists.
He's a SongXi NeiJiaQuan master, so keep in mind that the techniques are largely drawn from that said style, and is more focused on tripping and grappling.

http://individual.utoronto.ca/gfx/misc/32killingfists.rar

This is in Chinese, tell me where you want the translation, and I'll try my best to translate for you.

[Royal Dragon]

Are you talking about the "Tai Tzu Chang Chuan" that came from the Long Fist Wha branch (Long Fist 5 branches - Cha, Wha, Hon, Tan, Pao) and passed down by GM Han Ching-Tan in Taiwan?

Reply]
I don't know what he teaches, but that sounds like it. I am researching the art of long fist founded by the first Song Emperor, Chao, Kuang Yin AKA Sung Tai Tzu developed in 960 AD.

I have a number of forms from various versions of the style, but not much explanation in them. Between Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, and Tai Tzu Hong Chuan I have a relatively complete northern Tai Tzu style, but I am still missing the essence of it all. I would like to find out what the original 32 techniques were, and both the principals that govern them, and HOW they were used in application. From there, I can look into my forms, and extrapalate application and use knowing I'm at least on the right path to being correct. Otherwise I'm just guessing.

What I have now is just about the same thing as learning a lot of Bagua forms, being able to perform them properly with the right structure and mechanics, but never being taught the 8 mother palms, the strategical principals and fundementals behind them, or HOW to use them in free fighting application.

With out that base, there is nothing to guide all the tehcniques in the rest of the form I know. I can figure lots of apps for the techs in the forms I have, but is it stylistically correct for Bagua? Or in my actual case, is it stylistically correct for Tai Tzu Chang Chuan?

An english manual, or even some sort of video teaching the 32 postures Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, and the principals behind thier use would be ideal, but I'll settle for anything really. This will at least allow me to explore my forms in the right direction for the style, instead of making up any application that works.

Oh, and what do i need to view that clip?

[gfx]

It's not a video clip, it's just a bunch of jpg images of a book.

Use winrar to decompress the file.
http://www.rarlab.com/

[Royal Dragon]

GFX
WOW, that looks like it! Although I'm not so sure the apps shown fully coraspond with the postures.

I would love as much translation as you would be willing to do.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

[QUOTE=Royal DragonOh, and what do i need to view that clip?[/QUOTE]

eight bucks. plumpub.com/sales/vcd/coll_taitzu.htm (http://www.plumpub.com)

[Royal Dragon]

I have that series, it looks like two sections out of the Long form. It's good, but there is no explanation on the esscence of the style, or description of the original 32 postures. It teaches the form sections, and a few weapons sets.

If there IS explanation, there is no courasponding demos of it in application, it's only forms.

The scanned text linked to above actualy helps me more. Now If I can only read Chinese! :)

[gfx]

Nice, I'll try to post translations as much as I can then. Maybe one page a day or something.

[Royal Dragon]

COOL! Thank You!!

[gfx]

First Technique Lan Zha Yi ( Lazily Tucking In The clothe ) ( pic 1 )

The fist manual says: "Lan Zha Yi open door form, changes to next move Xun Bu Dan Bian. Facing the enemy, if no courage to advance, it's a waste to good eye sight and precise hands".

Lan Zha Yi is a opening technique, like the opening moves in fist forms today. So called "Lazily Tucking In the clothe", is to mean that the martial art practitioner is not nervous when facing the enemy, and slowly tucks in the clothe. It represents that the practioner is skilled and brave, with heroism that is fearless in the face of danger. In SongXi NeiJia, a lot of forms open with "Lan Zha Yi", but the movement is slightly different ( pic 1-1, black pants means our side).

-- pic 1 -- -- pic 1-1 --

From the fist manual we can also see, Lan Zha Yi's next move should be "Xun Bu Dan Bian" ( Fast step single whip ). "Xun Bu", is to mean extremely fast footwork, "Xun Bu Dan Bian" means fast advance, and face the enemy with "Dan Bian" ( Single whip ). The method is: When the enemy attack me with punchs and kicks, I use the right arm to swing down ( PiGua ) from the top to the front ( that makes no sense to me, maybe he means left ), immediately twist the waist, step forward and seal the enemy's leg, at the same time use the right arm to cut down from top to front and press on the enemy's chest, making him fall. ( pic 1-2 )

Lan Zha Yi's movement selection is not important, the importance is the second sentense. "Facing the enemy, if no courage to advance, it's a waste of good eye sight and precise hands". It hits the truth of practicing martial arts right on the nose. It means that if one does not have the spirit to advance fearlessly and fight for one's life in the face of the enemy, then even the best techniques are useless. In martial practice, there is often the saying "First courage, second strength, third technique". In art of war, there is also the saying "When two army meet, the brave will be victorious". When summarized, it always point to the same principal: One must be brave when facing the enemy. That is why, only when the martial art practitioner has the fearless spirit of "seeing blade as if it is nothing", then one can overcome the enemy and gain victory.

Translator's Comments:

"Lan Zha Yi" is also name for the opening technique in Chen taji. In Yang taiji, this is changed to "Lan Que Wei" ( grasp the sparrow's tail ) for a better sounding name, but lost it's original meaning of courage imo.

"Single Whip" can be simpler than meets the eye. It can be the technique with the same name that is found in taiji, which is used as described here. Also, in CMA, a thai-like kick is called a "whip kick", so "Xun Bu Dan Bian" could mean to advanced and throw a round house kick.

[Royal Dragon]

WOW, Thanks!

I'm a bit confused though, I think I need a bit more study. :D

[gfx]

What are you confused about?

[Royal Dragon]

I don't understand the whole thing about the Single Whip.

Also, the pics of the usage themselves confuse me, they don't really seem to be represenative of the postures shown.

I'm not saying the apps are bad, they just don't seem to mesh with the postures shown.

[mantis108]

First and foremost, I thank gxf for the nice work on the translation.

Royal Dragon, you are right about the moves and the applications don't much. The Chinese text is IMHO poorly written and the apps are at best liberal interpretations of the original moves. The whole idea of referencing old text with a supposely old and legit "internal" style of Kung Fu is rather wacky.

One thing of note is that the "Whip" is also an old pugilistic term (possibly since Song dynasty) of clenched fist strike that could be pigua, round house, straight, back fist, etc. Bascially, the hands whip out following the motion of the waist.

I was very disappointed with the text when I first read it sometime ago. The first impression is that the author has very little real experience with application and pugilistic traditions. You could see it with first page's comment that he has. All he was saying there is the "martial feeling" which basically is "be brave" (what the f*ck?!). This, he claims, in the old text is the suggestion on the move Lan Zha Yi. The move isn't about giving air of competence. It is about getting ready and in position in a shorter time than other pugilistic traditions of the time. Zha Yi was the conventional move to get ready for a fight in the good old days. If you can shorten that, you get a better chance to initiate and control the pace. That's why you have the Xun Bu Dan Bian. A quick left foot stomp followed by shift into right stance and right lead strike. It is all about timing and being quick. It has nothing to do with "lazely" or "looking courageous". In fact, you can look like a nobody. The proof however is in the pudding. Looks and feelings have nothing to do with real techniques. Speed and efficiency kills not looks and attitudes (that's for the performing arts). You finish the fight before you even need to tying up your robe for a proper and prolonged fight. That what Lan Zha Yi means if you ask me.

Just some thoughts

Mantis108

[gfx]

I have to disagreed with you mantis.

The bravery theme here is of uptmost importance to martial art practice. You are not trying to look and feel brave, but to actually be brave. It should be effortless, and Lan Zha Yi would just be so natural to do because you have no innate fear of your opponent. This idea so so important that, QiJiGuang spent half of the time in the opening statement talking about it.

Take mantis for example, it requires courage from the partitioner to advance and close the gap to the opponent while under attack. As well as evasion and tricking the opponent. Doing something like that requires confidence and courage.

In addition, how do you explain the name "Lan Zha Yi"? Lan can be translated as either lazily or slowly, both of which doesn't explain your idea of fast opening. This posture is not a fighting applicable move, period. The real technique starts with "Xun Bu Dan Bian".

I find it interesting that your interpretation of Xun Bu Dan Bian is basically based on mantis, while the author's interpretation is based on his style, and mine is based on something I find useful. That's the beauty of the 32 fist manual imo.

Anyways, it's important to remember that the 32 fist methods were original written for basic infantry training and conditioning. The most important quality of solider were not technical proficiency but rather bravery.

[Royal Dragon]

Anyways, it's important to remember that the 32 fist methods were original written for basic infantry training and conditioning.

Reply]
I was under the impression that the 32 postures was a compilation of the Emperor Chao, Kuang Yin's life long experiance as a soldier, and eventual commander of the elite imperial troops. In other words, it was his advanced, personal style created out of a life long martial study.

My research seems to indicate he was a student of Louhan and a Qi gong student of Chen Po (Chen, Hsi Y, founder of Taiji Ruler, and water boxing) in his youth. Later he surely would have been deeply exposed to the Hong Jia style used by the imperial troops of the time, considering he rose through the ranks to be thier commander. Somewhere he was supposed to have become versed in the Monkey style. His art was an advanced compilation of all that experiance. I don't belive it was for basic infantry training. The Southern Tai Tzu common in Fuzian seems to fit that bill much better, both in legend, and construction.

[Royal Dragon]

The whole idea of referencing old text with a supposely old and legit "internal" style of Kung Fu is rather wacky.

Reply]
Why? If it's a legit text,why not use it for deeper insite into your studies?

[Royal Dragon]

One thing of note is that the "Whip" is also an old pugilistic term (possibly since Song dynasty) of clenched fist strike that could be pigua, round house, straight, back fist, etc. Bascially, the hands whip out following the motion of the waist.

Reply]
I have a form based on these pics. Someone here steered me to the chart a few years ago, and I actually worked it out. It does have a good number of strikes that "Whip" out following the waist. Assuming I managed to properly work it out with such a very basic sketch that is.

I have some footage of Tai Tzu sets from various lineages i've collected over the years, I had to search through them for similar connections of movement for reference. Without that, i don't think I'd be close.

[r.(shaolin)]

gfx can you put these images up as just simply as jpg's. I would like to see these. (by the way jpgs are compressed files why compress them further.)


r.



It's not a video clip, it's just a bunch of jpg images of a book.

[gfx]

Royal Dragon:

Hm...no, you seem to have your history mixed up.

While Tai Zu is said to be created by Northern Song dynasty (960 BC - 1125 BC) founder ZhaoGuangYi, the 32 postures by QiJiGuang near the end of Ming dynasty ( 1368 BC - 1644 BC ).

The methods were found within the military training manual "Ji Xiao Xin Shu". While TaiZu 32 postures was mentioned in the introduction of the methods, so was 12 other styles. Hence I doubt there was much connection between the two other than names. Maybe QiJiGuang was indeed influenced by Taizu, but there is no way of knowing that now.

The purpose behind QiJiGuang's creation of the methods was to break out of the overly flowery and unusable martial art styles at the time, and to organize something that was effective and fast to learn in order to train soldiers to more effective counter the Japanese pirates that were raiding the Chinese coast.

I am interested though in how Taizu 32 postures are organized, is it possible that you can point me to some resources? Thanks.

[gfx]

gfx can you put these images up as just simply as jpg's. I would like to see these. (by the way jpgs are compressed files why compress them further.)


r.



It's not a video clip, it's just a bunch of jpg images of a book.

It's just to put them all in one file.

[r.(shaolin)]

so how do I get to see them - without buying more software? or being a "windows user". All thats up on the site is code.
r.

[gfx]

just go download winrar, it's shareware.

I think i provided the link earlier.

[r.(shaolin)]

so how does a mac user use this ???

I did download it. Here is a sample of the instructions :-)))))

r.

User's Manual
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
RAR 3.50 32-bit console version
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

RAR for Unix reads configuration information from the file .rarrc
in the user's home directory (stored in HOME environment variable)
or in /etc directory.

RAR for Windows reads configuration information from the file rar.ini,
placed in the same directory as the rar.exe file.

[r.(shaolin)]

how about something a bit more standard like pdf
r.

[Royal Dragon]

I am continually researching Tai Tzu, but most is word of mouth from various lineages. I don't really have any sources to point you too, just a bunch of personal notes that often conflict with one another.

What I have been lead to belive is Sung Tai Tzu created a 32 posture set that encompeses his personal style. This is ultimately what I'm looking for.

General Qi Jiguang's 32 postures was predominatly tai tzu (Suposedy). Many consider his work to be one step in Tai Tzu Chang Chuan's evolution.

I'm actually trying to sort all the history out, any insite you can offer would be most appreciated.

[mantis108]

I have to disagreed with you mantis.

No problem. I can understand we came from different perspectives.


The bravery theme here is of uptmost importance to martial art practice. You are not trying to look and feel brave, but to actually be brave. It should be effortless, and Lan Zha Yi would just be so natural to do because you have no innate fear of your opponent. This idea so so important that, QiJiGuang spent half of the time in the opening statement talking about it.

Okay, I don't think QJG actually explained any of the move except sonnets like phrases in his "Ji Xiao Xin Shu". Even in the introduction/prologue of the Quanjing, it is about being fast and strike without blocking. The text quoted the first sonnet and then the rest is the author's own interpretation. I have nothing against interpretations of texts but he should have the courtesy of making it clear or established the link between his style and Qi's work. This makes the research more difficult than it should. Of course for entertainment or quick inspiration, it might just work fine. It is amusing enough for sure. I have nothing against your translation either. I am just saying that this text is not well thought out that's all.


Take mantis for example, it requires courage from the partitioner to advance and close the gap to the opponent while under attack. As well as evasion and tricking the opponent. Doing something like that requires confidence and courage.

Well, IME most of the style (martial sports or martial arts) that emphasis physical contact at all times during practice don't even bother to talk about courage and such. Sure once in awhile it might come into conversation. But usually they don't fuss about it. Now, I have talked to some mainland practitioner (traditional). The expressive and courageous feeling is always top on the list. Admittedly, they also say that San Da is more or less secondary nowadays. This doesn't goes to say that they don't know how to do it and be good with it. Just that way things are. I guess I am jaded.


In addition, how do you explain the name "Lan Zha Yi"? Lan can be translated as either lazily or slowly, both of which doesn't explain your idea of fast opening. This posture is not a fighting applicable move, period. The real technique starts with "Xun Bu Dan Bian".

My explanation is in my last post. I interpreted Lan more or less as not to bother or caring. But that is just my opinion.


I find it interesting that your interpretation of Xun Bu Dan Bian is basically based on mantis, while the author's interpretation is based on his style, and mine is based on something I find useful. That's the beauty of the 32 fist manual imo.

You might be right but be that as it may, I think the introduction in the Quanjing has said it all. It is really about being speedy not being slow in anyway.


Anyways, it's important to remember that the 32 fist methods were original written for basic infantry training and conditioning. The most important quality of solider were not technical proficiency but rather bravery.

You do have a point here.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[r.(shaolin)]

just in case anyone else had problems figuring out how what to do with

http://individual.utoronto.ca/gfx/m...illingfists.rar

First of all you don't need to down load winrar to decompress the file.

Simply save the page on your desktop. Stuffit will decompress it as well.

r.

[gfx]

Translation:

Second technique JingJiDuLi ( Golden rooster standing with one leg )

First manual says: "JingJiDuLi springs up, kick out (Zhuang Tui) horizontal fist in series.
*Qiang Bei Wo Niu ( Resting Ox ) double fall. Whoever received the blows will cry in agony."
*( Qiang Bei, which literally means to move forward and close distance with the body, and strike with the back )

JingJiDuLi is a technique containing both attack and defense. It can defend against attacking by the lower body, and can also counter-attack using the legs, plus closing the distance to strike and throw.

I. Application example:

1. Hooking springing leg.

1) When the opponent attempts to enter my center. ( That is the opponent attempts to enter from my front side, or his front leg has been blocked towards the outside ) I can follow by hooking his leg with my front foot, making him fall. ( pic 1-3 )

2) Without stopping, when I hook his leg, if the opponent loses his balance, I should kick out his back leg's knee joint with my hooking foot. ( pic 1 - 4 ).

2. Trapping leg horizontal fist.

Without stopping, I drop my leg to advance and trap the enemy's legs. With great speed horizontally sweep the opponent's chest. ( pic 1-5 )

3. Resting Ox double fall ( This technique shares its name with the Wo Niu Shuang Dao technique in SongXi Neijia ).

When I cross sweep the opponent using my fist, if he strongly resists, then I can trap his left forearm with my right hand, and at the same time strike ( more like touching ) his left ribs with my right elbow. Shift the body weight forward fast, and strike his face with the left palm. ( pic 1-6 )

Important points: The moves above are one single continuous combo, when used should be tightly coupled, fast and smooth.

II. The above are explained from the attacking point of view. If to view it from the point of view of defense, we can also explain as follow:

1. Guard against low kicks

If the opponent using low kicks to attack my lower abdomen or crotch, I can raise back the front leg, seal the attacking leg. Using the raised leg to counter attack, then advance forward and use the combined striking and throw.

2. Guard against sweeping kicks.

If the opponent attempts to sweet my leg, I can raise my front leg to avoid the sweep, and counter with the leg, and use the striking and throwing combo.


Translator's note:

The name "Zhuang Tui" is translated as both "kicking out" and "trapping leg". The author's understanding of Zhuang Tui is to trap the opponent's legs by advancing. Another understanding of it is a front kick.

"Heng Quan" or horizontal fist can also be understood as a cross.

So in a purely striking sense, another usage of the move is to: Block kick by raising the knee, kick out and then strike the opponent with jab and/or cross,
follow by a hook that may or may out involve the trapping and throwing aspect.

[Royal Dragon]

AHH!!! This one refers to the second move in the form!! I just pictured a whole new way to use that one too!! THANKS!!

[Vasquez]

sounds quite generic to me but hard to visualise without the pics

[Royal Dragon]

The pics are posted in a link further up in the thread.

[Royal Dragon]

Where did you go?

[Royal Dragon]

Wow!! I have video of that performance from a different angle! At least I think it's the same compitition. I also have the taller white guy who performed just before him.

[gfx]

yeah sorry, I'm quite busy with work these days.
I'll come back to this when I have more time.

[Royal Dragon]

GFX,
Any comment on the video posted?

[gfx]

That's Johns Wang performing isn't it?

That's just standard northern shaolin long fist.
Good power though, nice stable and clean movements. I like it. :)

I've never seen what's considered to be classical taizu changquan, so I don't think I'm in any position to judge it.

[Royal Dragon]

Actually, I have that set from 2 different Tai Tzu lineages. North Tai Tzu is very much like Cha Fist or Northern Hong Chuan. Like a mix of the two.

[Royal Dragon]

Bump
................................

[Sal Canzonieri]

Actually, I have that set from 2 different Tai Tzu lineages. North Tai Tzu is very much like Cha Fist or Northern Hong Chuan. Like a mix of the two.

What exact names for you have for that form?

I have seen it called a Hong Quan form too.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Problem with General Qi's form is that there is confusion over exactly
what he meant.
If his 32 move form was an amalgamation of moves from his list of the best styles
(and hence never meant to be an actual form)

OR

If his form is actually a Tai Tzu form.
Which it is considered so because of a book that was found.

From Peter Lim's Research:

art 2: The Martial Arts Practiced In The Chen Villiage

The Sung Tai Zhu Quan Connection

Tang Hao was the first to theorise that Chen Wang Ting invented Taijiquan by integrating 29 of the 32 postures of General Qi Ji Kwang. In chapter 3 we have already ascertained that Gu was wrong about the origins of Taijiquan, here we will see how the 32 postures of General Qi fits into the picture as a basis for the development of Chen Taijiquan.

General Qi was a general during the Ming dynasty who compiled a book on effective war techniques called the "New Book Recording Effective Techniques" (Ji Xiao Xin Shu). In it he had sections of strategy, weapons usage, unarmed combat and other aspects of war. In the section on unarmed combat he recorded the names of 16 extant empty hand martial arts and took note of what made effective boxing. He also recorded 32 boxing postures. Gu was the first to assume that these 32 postures were an amalgam of the most effective techniques of the 16 listed fistic forms. For many decades, this was the accepted truth because of his reputation as a Taijiquan historian. Unfortunately he was wrong.

Based on the above assumption, Gu had posited that Chen Wang Ting had developed his Taijiquan from General Qi's form which supposedly consisted of the best techniques from the 16 extent fistic arts during the Ming dynasty. An impressive pedigree. With a closer examination of the postures and their listing we discover something else.

In 1918, the Shanghai Da Shen Bookshop published a book called the `Boxing Canon' (Quan Jing) which was at that time one of the more complete books on the many aspects of boxing. Inside it was included drawings of the original 32 postures of Sung Tai Zhu Chang Quan (First Emperor Of Sung's Long Boxing). Upon closer examination, it was discovered that these 32 postures were identical (there were some variant readings where similar sounding words were used in place of each other though without losing the meaning of the posture name) with the 32 postures in General Qi's book. General Qi had listed the 32 postures of Sung Tai Zhu Quan as the first in the list of the many fistic forms he mentioned.

A parallel comparison of the drawings and names of the 32 postures shows that they are in fact identical. A posture listing of both sets are as follows:

The 32 Postures 1n General Qi's Book

1) Lazily Arranging Clothes

2) Golden Chicken Stands On One Leg

3) Pat Horse

4) Bending Single Whip

5) Seven Star Fist

6) Repulse Riding Dragon

7) Sweep Leg And Empty Bait

8) Hill Fairy Stance (qiu liu shi)

9) Repulse Thrusting Attack

10) Ambush Stance

11) Casting Away Stance

12) Pick Up Elbow Stance

13) Speedy Step

14) Chin Na Stance (Grappling Stance)

15) Middle Four Level Stance

16) Subduing Tiger Stance

17) High Four Level Stance

18) Repulse Insertion Stance

19) Well Blocking Four Levels

20) Ghost Kick Foot

21) Pointing At Pubic Region

22) Animal Head Stance

23) Spirit Fist

24) Single Whip

25) Sparrow Dragon On The Ground

26) Rising Sun Stance

27) Goose Wings Fold Body

28) Riding Tiger Stance

29) Bend Pheonix Elbow

30) Cannon Overhead

31) Follow Pheonix Eblow

32) Flag And Drum Stance

Sung Tai Zhu Chang Chuan's 32 Postures

1) Lazily Arranging Stance

2) Golden Chicken Stands On One Leg

3) Control Horse Stance

4) Bending Whip

5) Seven Star Fist

6) Repulse Riding Dragon Stance

7) Sweeping Foot And Lightly Empty

8) Hill Flowing Stance (qiu liu shi)

9) Repulse Thrusting Stance

10) Ambush Stance

11) Pulling Frame Stance

12) Bracing Eblow Upwards Stance

13) Escaping Step

14) Chin Na Stance (Grappling Stance)

15) Middle Four Level Stance

16) Subduing Tiger Stance

17) High Four Level Stance

18) Repulse Catching Stance

19) Well Blocking Stance

20) Ghost Kicking Stance

21) Pointing To Pubic Region

22) Animal Head Stance

23) Spirit Fist

24) Single Whip

25) Sparrow Dragon Stance

26) Rising Sun Stance

27) Wild Goose Wing Stance

28) Riding Tiger Stance

29) Bend Pheonix Stand

30) Over Head Stance

31) Follow Pheonix Stance

32) Flag And Drum Stance

What does this mean to Taijiquan? Chen Zhi Ming was the member of the Chen family who accompanied Tang Hao to the Chen village. He, like Gu and Tang also wrote about his family's Taijiquan. Chen Zhi Ming work contains records the following about Sung Tai Zhu Quan:

`Tai Zhu stances are the strongest, tumbling and diagonal moving, even ghosts have to be busy to get out of the way' from the Liang Yi Tang Ben manual of Chen martial arts.

`Seven star fist and hands take care of each other, Pat Horse Fist comes down from Tai Zhu' from the Wen Xiu Tang Ben manual of Chen martial arts

From the above, which are the earliest sources of information about Chen family martial arts, it is clear that it was Sung Tai Zhu Quan that formed the basis of Taijiquan with 29 of its 32 postures adopted into the form, and did not come from General Qi's work which has no mention in Chen literature. This inaccurate hypothesis having been originated by Tang Hao.

Sung Tai Zhu Quan or Sung Tai Zhu Chang Quan as it was also known, comes from the south of China and is a external hard boxing form. It is characterised by powerful strikes and movements, body shaking, being structurally aligned, postures flowing with coordinated footwork, being very firm and stable both in standing and stepping and is effective in grappling (chin-na). All of which are present in Chen Taijiquan today. Sung Tai Zhu Chang Quan was not the only art practiced and ultimately integrated into their unique family boxing routines, from Chen Zhi Ming's record of the Chen arts song formulas, we know that Shaolin Red Fist was also practiced.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Problem with this theory:

"In 1918, the Shanghai Da Shen Bookshop published a book called the `Boxing Canon' (Quan Jing) which was at that time one of the more complete books on the many aspects of boxing. Inside it was included drawings of the original 32 postures of Sung Tai Zhu Chang Quan (First Emperor Of Sung's Long Boxing). Upon closer examination, it was discovered that these 32 postures were identical (there were some variant readings where similar sounding words were used in place of each other though without losing the meaning of the posture name) with the 32 postures in General Qi's book. General Qi had listed the 32 postures of Sung Tai Zhu Quan as the first in the list of the many fistic forms he mentioned."

is that what if this 1918 book's tai tzu form was nothing but a copy of General Qi's form?
There is no way to know yes or no.

The Shaolin 32 Move Tai Tzu Long Fist form that is practiced all around the temple region has many of the same moves but also different ones and it is a much more coherent form, with clear movements and clear applications. many of the moves in this form are also found in Hong Quan forms from Henan and Shanxi regions as well.

For sure the moves in the Shaolin 32 form are found in Chen and Yang tai chi forms. I can point out every move, even whole sequences to sections in the Chen tai ji forms. Even in the Yang long form (but done with different jings).

The General Qi 32 tai tzu form is extremely weird, if you are intimate with doing forms and their self defense applications.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I need a video of:

- Adam Hsu's Tai Tzu form

- any person doing Tai Tzu from Mai Hua style.

anyone got any videos I can see?

thanks

[Royal Dragon]

My copy of Adam Hsu's form is pretty bad. It was shot at night in a parking lot. You can see the set well enough though. I can copy it over thanks giving, and see if I can get the copy in the mail next week sometime.

[Royal Dragon]

The General Qi 32 tai tzu form is extremely weird, if you are intimate with doing forms and their self defense applications.

Reply]
I found this as well. It actually leads me to believe that that set is not a form, but a compilation of the original 32 techniques. If one looks at it as not being a form at all, and assumes that is the oldest Tai tzu material, then it might stand to reason that Tai Tzu did not originally have a form. Maybe originally it was just 32 techniques. The useage of said techniques was taught along with entry and evasion strategies, the foot work used for positioning, and methods to apply them to intercept and disrutp your opponent's balance etc...

Each technique could be combined with any other in any sequence based on the conditions of the fight at the moment. Maybe that is how it was originally taught. Various combo's of 2-3 or maybe 4 techniques were strung togther as needed at the moment and just as soon forgotten.

Maybe the form as we see it now is just some modern misunderstanding of the original formless essence?

[Sal Canzonieri]

The General Qi 32 tai tzu form is extremely weird, if you are intimate with doing forms and their self defense applications.

Reply]
I found this as well. It actually leads me to believe that that set is not a form, but a compilation of the original 32 techniques. If one looks at it as not being a form at all, and assumes that is the oldest Tai tzu material, then it might stand to reason that Tai Tzu did not originally have a form. Maybe originally it was just 32 techniques. The useage of said techniques was taught along with entry and evasion strategies, the foot work used for positioning, and methods to apply them to intercept and disrutp your opponent's balance etc...

Each technique could be combined with any other in any sequence based on the conditions of the fight at the moment. Maybe that is how it was originally taught. Various combo's of 2-3 or maybe 4 techniques were strung togther as needed at the moment and just as soon forgotten.

Maybe the form as we see it now is just some modern misunderstanding of the original formless essence?


The joke of it all is that all the people in China doing all the squawking about these styles don't even know how to do any of the martial arts forms that they are talking about!

Nothing has been proven about General Qi's form. Nothing in any Chen village document even mentions Qi's book.

Just because the names of the moves are the same in Chen as they are in this list of moves from Qi's book doesn't prove anything, because the Shaolin Tai Tzu Long Fist form looks and feels the most like Chen Tai Ji (or whatever you can call the Chen style, many say Yang is the point that it becomes actually Tai Ji). The opening of the Shaolin TZ form is the same as the Chen form, whole sequences of moves from the Shaolin TZ form are in the exact same order as in various sections of the Chen form. And they are done almost the same way, just the jings are a little different.

The moves in the form shown in Qi's book are NOT done in that order anywhere in the Chen form.

Oh, and even the Shaolin 32 long fist form FEELS like loose techniques strung together rather than like their other forms. As most styles from Sung and before actually were like. Forms didn't really become prominent til after 1200s.

(By the way, the Shaolin 32 TZ LF form is composed of 57 actual different moves, all contained within 32 named techniques.)

[Sal Canzonieri]

My copy of Adam Hsu's form is pretty bad. It was shot at night in a parking lot. You can see the set well enough though. I can copy it over thanks giving, and see if I can get the copy in the mail next week sometime.


Is it the full 108 moves set?

[Royal Dragon]

I count about 70 or so "moves", but techniques are often several moves long. Adam Hsu may have the full set, but I'm not sure I do. although I did eventually track down the source of the video, and he claimed it was the full set.