What would you do?

[r4cy]

Ok, this is the problem:


I was an indoor disciple of my sifu( I'll hold his name to myself). The thing is that I recieved private instruction for a long time. When I was going to be certified as instructor(the only certificate he gives is this one) he wanted to talk to me about a "tuition" I had to pay so i could teach his "patented" system. The sum he was asking was jus crazy. Also he wanted me to give him the biggest percent of the income of the school he wanted me to start, just to be under his name. I was so disapointed with this "all profit" attitude he all of the sudden showed. The thing is that my private classes were incredibly expensive. I couldn't understand how he was asking for more money now, something that he never mentioned when I started training. Also he wanted me to have the exact spiritual beliefs that he had. If I showed any contradictory belief to his he would be mad at me. I would have never imagined that he would do such a thing. We ended the relationship and the training in really bad terms. The thing is that after all that training I didn't get my "instructor" certification. And now to start my own school or club is such a pain in the....... I tried to make an aplication to join other organizations by long distance but they wanted me to learn all the curriculum they had from the beginning, also I had to pay for the tapes and stuff wich was going to take me a couple of years more. I even tried it but they would fail in sending me the material at the right time because they were to busy and stuff. What you guys recommend. Please be helpful and not make a joke about this thread.

Thanx

[Ultimatewingchun]

If what he taught you was any good, and if you're any good, :p , then you don't need a piece of paper to open your own school.

People will see that you can teach them how to fight effectively - and they will join.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi r4cy,

I agree with Ultimatewingchun! The knowledge is now yours! If you have learned it well the piece of paper doesn’t mean a thing! It is your ability that counts!

I also agree with YouKnowWho nowadays knowing only one style provides a very narrow level of understanding. Almost all professions require continuing education for their licensure, so I encourage you to continue your education in the MA while you teach. It will only improve your knowledge base and foundation for teaching!

It is good that you finally learned about the true character of your instructor. It took me many years to learn about the true character of my first instructor too. If nothing else he has demonstrated to you what you do not want to become! He was at least a good bad example. Just learn from it and move on with your life and your goals!! By the time I was nearing my instructor’s certificate 26 years ago I felt I didn’t really need it. It was just a piece of paper is all! It is what you know and your ability to share it effectively with others that will determine your success as an instructor and not a piece of paper from someone with dubious character!

[eadragon21]

Hey-

I definitely agree you don't need a piece of paper or a belt to teach. You'll either have the skill or you won't. If you teach people solid stuff that they're confident in can work, they won't care about your title or "certificate." At least that's what I've found. The best two guys I've trained under teach out of their homes and don't advertise, because they don't need to. They don't have a big fancy training hall, but you can't argue with their skill. I've also met instructors who did advertise a lot, and although the schools themselves were nice I was not very impressed with their skill level.

Good luck with your decision!

[Mikkyou]

Someone claimed to teach a certain something needs to have the proper documents.You can be a wonderful fighter with great self defence techniques.But the first thing if I were a new student would be who was your teacher what rank did he give you and can you show me proof of that rank you earned.
I see nothing wrong with teaching self defence but as soon as you claim a particular style and are teaching that style most would want to see the proof of rank before they start giving you money.

[Ernie]

Someone claimed to teach a certain something needs to have the proper documents.You can be a wonderful fighter with great self defence techniques.But the first thing if I were a new student would be who was your teacher what rank did he give you and can you show me proof of that rank you earned.
I see nothing wrong with teaching self defence but as soon as you claim a particular style and are teaching that style most would want to see the proof of rank before they start giving you money.


Hands talk , Paper is for wiping you @ss :eek:
You should have known he was hustling the minute you heard [indoor , disciple ,,,,, ]
those are huge red flags !!! that's when the Shaw brothers movie freaks start living the kung fu fantasy

might as well get certified at playing dungeons and dragons [ about the same worth]

get out there stand on your own two , be a real teacher ,coach ,trainer
and hopefully you learned your lesson and won't turn into one of those indoor disciple paper charlatans

wish you the best of luck , break the paper chain and be a free man :D

[r4cy]

For those that adviced me learning froim another style: I also have ranks yn many other styles for I've been training since I was twelve(I'm 25 now) Shaolin Long Fist, Shotokan, Jujutsu and Aikijujutsu are other systems I obtained black belt and other ranks. I simply LOVE Wing Chun, and that's something i don't need to explain to ya'll right? u know what i mean. But thanks for the advice. I'll think about it.

I also noticed someone wrote something about crossranking?
How do you do that? Who does crossranking that you all know?

[Mikkyou]

Hands talk , Paper is for wiping you @ss So you would like someone to tell you he learned from a Grandmaster had a teaching rank
but has no proof?!How would you know if you were learning the real deal?
Sure his techniques maybe great but how does anyone know he is really teaching
the style and the style correctly?
Let me give you an example:
There is a teacher in my style he has an honorable rank
but in reality he holds no offical rank.His technique is good but the students are not learning the real deal of the style because he himself has no teaching rank in that style and no proof he has rank.So how would you feel trusting your learning the real deal paying all this money trying to go up in rank and find out he has no rank!
Example 2:There are plenty of people out there combining styles and making up their own art with false historic claim though the teacher is great as a martial artist you wanted to learn kung fu but he is really teaching you karate mixed in with kungfu from a tv show.

[Ernie]

So you would like someone to tell you he learned from a Grandmaster had a teaching rank
but has no proof?!How would you know if you were learning the real deal?
Sure his techniques maybe great but how does anyone know he is really teaching
the style and the style correctly?
Let me give you an example:
There is a teacher in my style he has an honorable rank
but in reality he holds no offical rank.His technique is good but the students are not learning the real deal of the style because he himself has no teaching rank in that style and no proof he has rank.So how would you feel trusting your learning the real deal paying all this money trying to go up in rank and find out he has no rank!
Example 2:There are plenty of people out there combining styles and making up their own art with false historic claim though the teacher is great as a martial artist you wanted to learn kung fu but he is really teaching you karate mixed in with kungfu from a tv show.

Red flag #3 grandmaster/master = run for the hills !!!!!
grandmaster of what , Drills , history lessons , how to iron a silk sash, Etc,,,,,,,

alot of brainwashing going on :D

get in front of some one move around feel what they got , if you like it and the person is the kind of person that you can hang with , talk to , question
and most of all is honest , then your lucky , spend some time do your own hands on research , but kepp looking in other places , after all it's your @ss on the line when you fight not his !

so ask yourself grandmaster /master in respect to what !

bartender another round of fantasy fu kool Aid to the person at the end of the bar in the silk PJ'S
on me :D

I know people by into that crap and i don't mean to offend you , just spitt'n the facts ;)

[Xiao3 Meng4]

The proof, as they say, is in the pudding, not the packaging.

Packaging gives us a sense of security. Packaged food is disinfected, irradiated, cleaned, and served up in pretty plastic or paper. How much of packaged food is actually good for anyone, though? How do we figure out what's nutritious and what's junk? Why, we try it. I don't know anyone who buys nutritious food on the basis of packaging.

The same goes for Martial Arts, Wing Chun in particular. The trappings surrounding the nutritious bit are not, by any means, indicative of quality. Yes, it may be sterile and flashy, but is it good for you? The only way to really know is to test it out.

CSP

[Mikkyou]

Red flag #3 grandmaster/master = run for the hills !!!!! An actual grandmaster who has a traceable linerage with scrolls and ranks from previous grandmaster see the Japanese word Soke.

If somesone says they trained with Helio gracie and said they had rank but when asked to show it they could not and asked for $200amonth would you pay him?
I would not because that paper proofs he trained and recieved the right to teach the art.

I couldn't careless if somone wants to teach selfdefence but when they say there something they are not then its fraud.

[Ernie]

An actual grandmaster who has a traceable linerage with scrolls and ranks from previous grandmaster see the Japanese word Soke.

If somesone says they trained with Helio gracie and said they had rank but when asked to show it they could not and asked for $200amonth would you pay him?
I would not because that paper proofs he trained and recieved the right to teach the art.

I couldn't careless if somone wants to teach selfdefence but when they say there something they are not then its fraud.


who cares how far back you can chase a paper trail [ we are people not breeds of animals ]

i wouldn't pay anyone a dime until i did personal hands on research , with them there students and outside sources , it's 2005 not 1005 we have ways to find out about people ;)

again people like to play Kung fu movie and get dressed up learn the secret handshake and fill there walls with pretty paper and tell there buddies on the golf course all about how bad there sifu/soke/salami whatever :p is

Look my own Sifu has offered me all the certificates he has and i have yet to take one , we both laugh about it ,
and one day down the line out of respect i might have to accept them from him .
So i understand how much of a *big deal* this stuff is to some people , i'm just not one of them :)

i find the whole thing funny as hell :rolleyes:

[Merryprankster]

If somesone says they trained with Helio gracie and said they had rank but when asked to show it they could not and asked for $200amonth would you pay him?


Does he train champions? That's the only question I need answered. Paper don't mean ****.

[whitefox]

Someone claimed to teach a certain something needs to have the proper documents.You can be a wonderful fighter with great self defence techniques.But the first thing if I were a new student would be who was your teacher what rank did he give you and can you show me proof of that rank you earned.
I see nothing wrong with teaching self defence but as soon as you claim a particular style and are teaching that style most would want to see the proof of rank before they start giving you money.

A teaching certificate is like a recipe. It looks good on paper but what does it taste like after it is made?

[r4cy]

We also hav to ask ourselves, when the whole kung fu thing started, was there any paper to show back then? I doubt it. Also you can have a paper to show you are "the real deal" but then you can be crappy at WC. Would it be the real deal still? Now, if person can beat the *&* out of me, then I would say "Now, that's the real deal!"hehehe Just a thought.

I ask for advice in what to do , so please give advice.Nothing more

[Ernie]

Advice ,
simple if you want to teach , start teaching , i'm sure if you have skills there are people around you right now that would like to train with you ,

if you wait until your ready to teach , then you never will , because your never ready

you need to take the first step and then you will gain skill , in talking , and dealing with what come your way ,


you won't just be a parrot saying ''what sifu said '' but finding your own ways to express yourself and get others to understand ;)

follow your heart and never BS people .

some of the best advice i got was '' it's not always how much of a bad@ss you are or even how much you know , it's who you are and that people feel you are an honest and caring person ''

learn from your mistake your teacher seemed to turn into a scum bag in the end [ he was being fake ]

remember that lesson and make it a point to never do that to anybody else :D

off my soap box and back to the shadows , been done with thsi forum for a while but your question struck home :D
peace and good luck

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey r4cy,
Do you think you can teach wing chun?

If you have the ability to get your point across to people and know the points to get across, then I don't see a problem if you open a school under your name. The only problem is that most people like to see qualifications, it's just that simple. Doesn't take anything away from you and your abilities. By nature, most people hold degrees and certificates highly, at least higher than people without them.

I work with PhD's and postdocs all the time (I don't have anywhere near their level of education) and some of them are the dumbest people I've met.

J

[Mikkyou]

Thank you Jeff most people want to see the proof that your a legit teacher nothing wrong with that because their are so many scam artist out there.
Like I said earlier if someone is a good martial artist great wonderful and he teaches you techniques to make you a good martial artist THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.There is something WRONG with a teacher having no rank or no proof of rank and claiming to teach a Certain style.Ashida Kim the biggest fraud
claims to teach Ninjutsu he may be a good martial artist but how do you know your really learning Ninjutsu from him?Simple he would have the scrolls to prove he actually is a grandmaster in that art.That is why he is the laughing stock of the martial art world because he has no proof yet still claims to teach this.
There are thousands of teachers like this and any person with logic would want to know that what they are learning is from the correct source and not some guy making things up.

[anerlich]

I couldn't understand how he was asking for more money now, something that he never mentioned when I started training. Also he wanted me to have the exact spiritual beliefs that he had. If I showed any contradictory belief to his he would be mad at me.

Getting out of there was a good decision.


If somesone says they trained with Helio gracie and said they had rank but when asked to show it they could not and asked for $200amonth would you pay him?

Did Helio get any certificates from Maeda? By this logic, Helio probably had no business teaching Jiu Jitsu to anyone. All that knowledge would have been lost, had he listened to you and your ilk.


So you would like someone to tell you he learned from a Grandmaster had a teaching rank
but has no proof?!

By that logic, every one of the living Yip Man WC grandmasters is a fraud, since YM did not name a successor and issued no such "grandmaster certificate" to any of his students. And their students have no business teaching.

You're getting WAY too hot under the collar about this.

My advice, r4cy, FWIW: If you want to teach, teach. If people "interrogate" you about your background, tell them the truth.

If what you know already (you have multiple BB's in other styles so you have some certs, after all) isn't enough for you or the prospects in your area, maybe you need to suck up your pride and start over somewhere else. In my MA career I started again at the bottom three times (four if you count BJJ). I remember reading many MA articles about oldtime Okinawan karate BB's who were forced by circumstance to change teachers and started over as white belts. Most of them still got to 8th Dan or higher.

(I have an instructor's cert and another assistant instructor's cert - neener neener neener :p )

[Liddel]

I agree with the idea that if you can teach or pass on your skill to another then just do it, dont bother thinking about a cert.
Some people will want some written proof but you cant please everybody.

Realistically you dont have many options, you've spent lots of time and money not to mention sweat, you cant just give it up so...

The biggest advice i can give is....im all to sick of seeing a VT sign going into a school and seeing Karate ! it pi$$e$ me off. All i ask is honesty.
Start a school and call it 'your' kung fu.
"Joe Bloggs Ving Tsun Kung Fu", then you can be up front and honest about your situation people will understand what you have (you can explain/elaborate your situation when you feel fit) and be happy with what you have. People appreciate honesty (i know i do)
Skill and knowledge speak for themselves.
Good luck, i feel for you.

[Knifefighter]

If you are only interested in teaching and not really making a living from it, don’t worry about certificates or rankings. Thousands of people without rankings teach out of parks, in garages, or in community centers. You will still be able to get some students, although you may have to teach for very low rates or even for free.

If you are interested in making a business of it, however, you will probably have a rough go of it at first, as rankings and endorsements from a well-known instructor can greatly help in bringing in students when you are first starting out.

A way to get around this is to make a name for yourself on a competition circuit. If you have real skills, you should be able to modify your techniques to fit the rules of a number of competitive venues. This will give you name recognition, as well as a built in marketing machine to promote your business. You can also set up some challenge matches that can showcase your skills, get a buzz going about your business, and give you a source of videos to use for marketing purposes..

Unfortunately, this may not be an option, since his lack of scruples probably also extended into his teaching methods. If this is the case, your only other option may be to invest the time and money learn another system.

[Jam_master]

We also hav to ask ourselves, when the whole kung fu thing started, was there any paper to show back then? I doubt it. Also you can have a paper to show you are "the real deal" but then you can be crappy at WC. Would it be the real deal still? Now, if person can beat the *&* out of me, then I would say "Now, that's the real deal!"hehehe Just a thought.

I ask for advice in what to do , so please give advice.Nothing more

Your quite right! Historically speaking masters did not hand out certificates or seals of approval. You only had your word and your skills to prove it! and if your teacher was to be asked is this your student, it was really up to him if he wanted to acknowledge you as his student or not.

Think about it, but in the days of old, didn't the desciples go out and make a name for themselves first. Then claim who their teacher was after they got a few victories under their belts. The teacher then in turn would proudly acknowledge his pupil, and why not, it would of meant more students and more money for the teacher of a successful reknown fighter. I'm sure the reverse was tru also. If you lost a lot, you think that same teacher would of acknowledge his student???

ALso, let me just say that what happend to you is a crying shame. But your teacher would be a fool in the long run to not acknowledge you if you prove to still be profitable for him as a successful teacher yourself. So my advise is, forget about the paper, and go do your thing. Whether he wants to acknowlede you or not is his problem not yours.

You know I have heard this happen to many other people too, and in the end what would result is either somekind of peace between that teacher and his uncertifeid (******* child) of a student (LOL), or continued "you go your way and I'll go mine attitude" but with no loss either way other than the loss of respect and friendship. No matter what happens your success is not determined soley by a peice of paper. If your good and you beleive in what you have, you can still teach, and your teacher can either sit back and take in some of that glory to his advantage or he may not. Concidering how greedy you know he is, which of the ladder you think he would choose?

Peece Baby! :cool:

[r4cy]

You are so right! No wonder you are the "Jam Master" . I believe good kung fu starts in the head with valuable knowledge and wisdom. I was thinking all this week about this, and I simply decided to sit, write down the training method I will use acording to my point of view, and when it's all ready, I'll start to teach.
I don't care what they say anymore. My best "certificate" will be my skill.

Also I'd like to establish relations with some wingchunners so we can trade knowledge about the subject. I got a mean digital camera to make some cool videos that I'm willing to trade with someone.It's always good to learn of different points of view, specially in wing chun.


Whoever has msn messenger also send me a private message so I can add you in my account.

Se yaaaaa