Northern Mantis?

[Jason Martell]

I'm curious if any Norhtern Mantis praticioners could tell me, do you ever feel that the Northern Mantis stances are resrtricitive? What I mean is, do they restrict your angles of attack?

[mantis108]

The stances in Mantis are not just for keeping the balance or for show purpose. They are also offensive in nature. A northern mantis stylist would use the stance to obstruct, deny, upset or destory the opponent's functional operation base. The most important thing for stance work in Mantis is that it gives form, shape and order to the footwork. Without the good foundation (pun intented) of the stance work, the footwork will become chaotic as well. Then power generation will be all but lost.

Hope this helps.

Regards

Mantis108

[Oso]

don't forget, IMHO, that the stances as you practice them in your ba shi are just snapshots...moments in time that last just a split second while the proper energy is delivered via your strike or throw or lock. I don't believe any of the ba shi are meant to be 'neutral fighting stances'.

I modify the 'circle entering stance' for use as a 'neutral fighting stance' by raising it up quite a bit...of course, this then pretty much looks like a western boxers stance but {shrug} who cares?

modifying an existing stance from the ba shi allows me to connect the 'nfs' to all the other postures when teaching application.

[mantis108]

I hear you. Even in the older tradition of mantis, it's more about footwork then stance. This means you take your fight to the opponent and you dictate the pace not vice versa. If one finds him/herself not engaged up close and personal most of the time during the fight, it should be time IMHO to revise his/her game plan in using mantis.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Mika]

I'm curious if any Norhtern Mantis praticioners could tell me, do you ever feel that the Northern Mantis stances are resrtricitive? What I mean is, do they restrict your angles of attack?

Well, that depends, I guess. Well, actually not.

I used to practice Chan Family Choy Lee Fut for 12 years, and I must say that Mantis footwork allows me a lot more freedom in every possible definition of the word. Maybe that's just me insofar as Choy Lee Fut, but definitely Mantis footwork is very, very versatile not to mention agile and fast.

Cheers,

Mika


(Why isn't this in the NPM forum?).

[EarthDragon]

I am total agreenace with all the other replies as they are all either brothers, friends or mantis practioners.
Not to long ago I was honored to write an article about mantis and its footwork for the mantis quarterly.

I teach a system of mantis called babu (8 step) where the very name is based on footwork. And in my years have not came across another system which utilizes movement better than it.

It is hard to understand the concepts if not studied and practiced.. and somethimes even when practiced LOL. but if an entire system is based on the footwork then theres got to be something to it no?

[BornToKill]

how does the footwork compare to boxing footwork? As I udnerstand it boxing has two footwork styles, one is the ali version of dancing around and the other is shuffling your feet sideways, forward and back with the feet always planted the same fashion (left in front).

[shirkers1]

how does the footwork compare to boxing footwork? As I udnerstand it boxing has two footwork styles, one is the ali version of dancing around and the other is shuffling your feet sideways, forward and back with the feet always planted the same fashion (left in front).


It's a little of both but ambidextrous. Where ever you are at or need to be is where your front foot is. We work left and right side as our lead.

shuffle pattern left and right side. in an X pattern more like North south east west I say shuffle but it's more of a shooting footwork, more aggressive.

shuffle forward (pushing off of back leg)
shuffle back (pushing off of front leg) moving head and shrugging shoulder to avoid punch
shuffle right (pushing off of back leg, moving head like punch is coming straight at you)
shuffle left (pushing off of lead right leg back to the left) " " " """""
shuffle forward diagonal right (moving head to right avoiding punch)
shuffle forward diagonal left (moving head to left avoiding punch)
monkey step (leaping) forward used for gaining lots of ground
monkey step (leaping) back used for retreating lots of ground

and the circling shuffle where you step side and slide your back leg out taking the angle on your opponent.

The footwork is meant to be neutral so you can shoot where ever you need to be in an instant with either leg as your lead leg for the attack or retreat.

[mantis108]

I believe we have to bear in mind that western pugilistic traditions and Chinese pugilistic traditions are vastly different. So the perspective, anatomy and the dynamics of a fight are often very different. This is why we have drastically different approaches to many things including footwork.

Boxing as sport is about using 4 major types of punches. It is about how to get there and deliver them in the most simple, direct, and most devastating way possible. Meanwhile you don't want to get punched at or you want to minimize the impact of the incoming blows as much as possible. That's pretty much the footwork that is needed. Once you get to the clinch phase, the role of footwork is pretty much deminished unless of course you are like Ali who loves to float a butterfly and sting like a bee as well as using rope-a-dope.

Kung Fu is not designed to just "box" the opponent. There are plenty of things happening including kicking, throws and takedown, grappling, etc. So there are much more happening after the standup phase. Mantis footwork is quite frankly beyond the scope of Boxing the sport. Now street boxing would be a different case though.

Footwork in mantis has to coordinate between hand strikes, kicking, trapping/clinching, and throw/takedown. It has to have the fexibility to multi-task and unyeildingness to agressively gain and hold ground to delivery the intented strategy. So the delivery system of mantis is virtually leaps and bounces ahead if I may say so.

Many have seen footwork commonly used even in mantis that is describe by Shirkers1, which is mostly free movement and standup phase footwork, and they believe that is entirety of the Mantis footwork. Futhermore, they believe that's just Boxing/Kick Boxing footwork. Personally, I think they are trapped in the box the boxer mindset. But truely there are more to it as I am sure Shirker1 is well aware. The problem is that people today see Boxing's footwork as round peg and Kung Fu footwork as square peg. In fact they see them clash with each other. So in most estimations they won't fit together and perpare we should discard one of them. What they don't do is to think outside of the box (pun intended). It is IMHO more productive to see how these geometric shapes compliment and work with each other to build something even greater.

Anyway, just a few thoughts to share for now.

Mantis108

[shirkers1]

I believe we have to bear in mind that western pugilistic traditions and Chinese pugilistic traditions are vastly different. So the perspective, anatomy and the dynamics of a fight are often very different. This is why we have drastically different approaches to many things including footwork.

Boxing as sport is about using 4 major types of punches. It is about how to get there and deliver them in the most simple, direct, and most devastating way possible. Meanwhile you don't want to get punched at or you want to minimize the impact of the incoming blows as much as possible. That's pretty much the footwork that is needed. Once you get to the clinch phase, the role of footwork is pretty much deminished unless of course you are like Ali who loves to float a butterfly and sting like a bee as well as using rope-a-dope.

Kung Fu is not designed to just "box" the opponent. There are plenty of things happening including kicking, throws and takedown, grappling, etc. So there are much more happening after the standup phase. Mantis footwork is quite frankly beyond the scope of Boxing the sport. Now street boxing would be a different case though.

Footwork in mantis has to coordinate between hand strikes, kicking, trapping/clinching, and throw/takedown. It has to have the fexibility to multi-task and unyeildingness to agressively gain and hold ground to delivery the intented strategy. So the delivery system of mantis is virtually leaps and bounces ahead if I may say so.

Many have seen footwork commonly used even in mantis that is describe by Shirkers1, which is mostly free movement and standup phase footwork, and they believe that is entirety of the Mantis footwork. Futhermore, they believe that's just Boxing/Kick Boxing footwork. Personally, I think they are trapped in the box the boxer mindset. But truely there are more to it as I am sure Shirker1 is well aware. The problem is that people today see Boxing's footwork as round peg and Kung Fu footwork as square peg. In fact they see them clash with each other. So in most estimations they won't fit together and perpare we should discard one of them. What they don't do is to think outside of the box (pun intended). It is IMHO more productive to see how these geometric shapes compliment and work with each other to build something even greater.

Anyway, just a few thoughts to share for now.

Mantis108

Well put mantis 108, yes I agree there is much more to it. Keep in mind guys what I said was a stripped down core example of basic footwork in the 7* frame work. When we do this footwork we'll add hands and feet strikes so the student gets use to striking on the move and then they start to see how the footwork feeds the power of the strikes. This is where a lot of the short power comes from. I've said it before and I'll say it again, one of the most important things to train is the footwork. All aspects of footwork which as mantis 108 touched apon is vast and would take to long to get into details in the execution of who what when and why's of footwork.

[Kristoffer]

All aspects of footwork which as mantis 108 touched apon is vast and would take to long to get into details in the execution of who what when and why's of footwork.

I wouldn't mind reading it though ;)

[shirkers1]

I wouldn't mind reading it though ;)

Well reading and doing are two different things. A lot can get lost in the translation. :) Best thing is to see for yourself. It's really not black and white it's part of the system and it's extensive. The footwork is in it's basic form just that. But how you apply the footwork is as advanced as any mantis tactic or theory. Believe me I'm not trying to mystify footwork, just showing you how important footwork is to mantis boxing.

[Mika]

I wouldn't mind reading it though ;)

Get your Swedish butt over to Finland and we'll play. Nice and nice, of course. :p

[Vasquez]

It's a little of both but ambidextrous. Where ever you are at or need to be is where your front foot is. We work left and right side as our lead.

shuffle pattern left and right side. in an X pattern more like North south east west I say shuffle but it's more of a shooting footwork, more aggressive.

shuffle forward (pushing off of back leg)
shuffle back (pushing off of front leg) moving head and shrugging shoulder to avoid punch
shuffle right (pushing off of back leg, moving head like punch is coming straight at you)
shuffle left (pushing off of lead right leg back to the left) " " " """""
shuffle forward diagonal right (moving head to right avoiding punch)
shuffle forward diagonal left (moving head to left avoiding punch)
monkey step (leaping) forward used for gaining lots of ground
monkey step (leaping) back used for retreating lots of ground

and the circling shuffle where you step side and slide your back leg out taking the angle on your opponent.

The footwork is meant to be neutral so you can shoot where ever you need to be in an instant with either leg as your lead leg for the attack or retreat.


like boxing northern mantis footwork is quite bouncy.

[shirkers1]

like boxing northern mantis footwork is quite bouncy.

No not really, actually it's quite deliberate and sharp. The only bouncing I see is when wu shu guys do their little bobs acting like a bug or something. When I boxed I never saw any bouncing. So I don't know where you come up with that. Rarely do you see a boxer bouncing around unless he's trying to get away or move off on angles.

[Kristoffer]

Get your Swedish butt over to Finland and we'll play. Nice and nice, of course. :p

Hey I might just do that someday. Are you located in Helsinki?

[PlumDragon]

My mantis experience is mostly with a more obscure branch of it claled so rim.

I find, from that, as well as other branches, that not only are the stances not really "restrictive", but many, if not all of them, are similar to those found in most other Chinese arts.

[Vasquez]

No not really, actually it's quite deliberate and sharp. The only bouncing I see is when wu shu guys do their little bobs acting like a bug or something. When I boxed I never saw any bouncing. So I don't know where you come up with that. Rarely do you see a boxer bouncing around unless he's trying to get away or move off on angles.

bouncing is good makes you a moving target harder to hit

[Dale Dugas]

and so speaks the child.

Hmm, one would wonder when you will come prove you have anything to offer.



PD, if Im not mistaken So Rim is Shaolin in Korean. Doesnt mean mantis.


In Boston,

Dale

[PlumDragon]

and so speaks the child.
Hmm, one would wonder when you will come prove you have anything to offer.

PD, if Im not mistaken So Rim is Shaolin in Korean. Doesnt mean mantis.
Dale,
Dont you have more productive things to do than to respond to this kids every post?

As far as so rim, I dont know the history well anymore, but have been working on acquiring the details I used to have (if you actually care, I can provide them soon). So rim does mean shaolin in Korean, and probbly named that since the style was adapted primarily, as I know it, from a Korean instructor (I trained under one of his students) that trained in China for several years. It definitely has all the same stances and names as other CMA styles, and the same types of movements and forms as other branches of PM. Albeit, obscure, it is definitely PM kung fu. If you have any other questions, probably good to keep them to PM to keep the thread on topic...

[Vasquez]

Dale,
Dont you have more productive things to do than to respond to this kids every post?

As far as so rim, I dont know the history well anymore, but have been working on acquiring the details I used to have (if you actually care, I can provide them soon). So rim does mean shaolin in Korean, and probbly named that since the style was adapted primarily, as I know it, from a Korean instructor (I trained under one of his students) that trained in China for several years. It definitely has all the same stances and names as other CMA styles, and the same types of movements and forms as other branches of PM. Albeit, obscure, it is definitely PM kung fu. If you have any other questions, probably good to keep them to PM to keep the thread on topic...

Yeah sometimes I get the impression that Dale is trying to be mother goose. LOL on your comments.