Northern Mantis and Taekwondo?

[Jason Martell]

How well do you guys think these arts would combine? I can't help but think it would make a huge difference in fighting multiple fighters, so you can get people really far away, but if you land where someone is too close to you, northern mantis would come in great.

[shirkers1]

No no no they don't go well together at all.. TKD is very stiff and honestly hinders the power generation of a mantis practitioner. It takes years to train TKD out of someone when they come to the dark side of the force... Mantis covers all the fighting ranges on it's own (although some feel the ground is not covered).. What I mean is Kicking, Punching, and grappling range are all covered in Northern mantis so why would you need TKD if the kicking range is already covered? Now mind you most of the kicks are geared from the chest down and the majority of those are aimed from the waist down because we like to be able to keep moving.

[Reggie1]

I would think they don't go well together also. The philosophy behind the two is different. If anything, I would think one would want to combine a groundfighting art with Northern Mantis.

[Jason Martell]

I guess I don't really mean to combine them, but I think it would be good to be able to switch back and forth. Kung Fu kicks are very different from Takwondo kicks. In TKD, you don't stand and kick, you move from one spot to another, and they can kick much harder. I think of TKD as the single shot rifle, and Mantis as the rapid fire pistol. TKD is about hitting from very far away. I have never studied Kung Fu, but I have studied TKD, I really don't consider it a stiff art, except for beginners. In fact the instructors focused very much on telling their students to loosen up. I think TKD has good strengths, but horrible weaknesses, you get em backed into a corner, with their opponent real close, and it becomes useless. But they have a good chance at taking their opponent out, before their opponent gets within arms or legs reach of them.

Basically I'm curious in practicers of Kung Fu believe that the stances would allow you to switch from Kung Fu to TKD quickly enough, because watching Kung Fu, I notice their feet are further apart, and their are lower to the ground. With a good style of TKD their feet are shoulder width apart, with the knees just slightly bent.

[shirkers1]

You can tell if a KF guy has trained in TKD or other non chinese arts before because he has a stiffness to him/her... It's there for sure and it will probably never leave them because it's drilled in them so much. I don't know what mantis you've seen but not all mantis is low to the ground. Like I said we use a med to high stance as our fighting stance and we cover all the bases. We like to stay mobile and move a lot very springy and powerful. We have very powerful kicks.. A lot of it is short power, kicks thrown from short distances and still able to develop a lot of power because of body power and footwork. I can kick with my front leg as hard or harder than some winding up with their back leg. Same with punching.

sorry to rush my answers but I'm working and I'm trying to just throw it out there real quick without going into to much detail.

[Jason Martell]

It's all good, I appreciate the answers. I don't want anybody to think I'm disagreeing with them, becaue I don't know didly about Kung Fu. Do you guys think that if someoby studied Northern Mantis for a long time, and then stopped to study TKD, they would be able to keep them as two seperate methods of fighting, and be able to switch from one style to another effectively. I guess that's the appropiate question. I actually think it would be difficult to study Kung Fu if you studied TKD for too long first, because you would be so in the habit of dodiging attacks, that it would be hard to block. That's usually how TKD works, is move out of the way a few steps back, and then fly in with your counter attack.

[shirkers1]

Well I've been around plenty of guys who left TKD for mantis but never have I seen any one that left mantis for TKD. ;)

The thing with mantis is we are very agressive we like to eat up your space so when you think you're backing off to re establish yourself we're there already cutting you off or eating up your ground. Once we're within your kicking range most TKD guys are lost and that's something we know and use to our advantage. Sticking to you and not allowing you to get away to use your stronger attributes.

[Jason Martell]

I don't even doubt what you are saying is true, in fact I already believed that. Basically what I mean is, from watching Kung Fu video clips on the internet, it seems like they are more of a stand in one spot, kind of fighting style, and don't cover much ground, and in fighting multiple fighters, I know you need to keep moving, to avoid being surrounded. How do you think the mathc would go, if the match begins with the fighters 10 feet apart from each other?

[rogue]

Who are the really good N Mantis fighters? Any videos?

[shirkers1]

Not that I'm putting anything down. We do what we do because it suits what we want to train. For some they like the sport aspect of TKD and kicking. I see a lot of injuries over time from punching and kicking in the air with those cats and they ofter switch up to a "softer" style.

Well I was going to give you a link to some vids of mine that go over your question but my host is gone now so I can't post the link... :(

If you're 10 feet apart why fight? Either leave or get within fighting range. :) If you're still 10 apart from each other flapping your gums then one or both of you don't really want to fight any way so what's the point. Either be the better man and walk away or take the fight to him.

[mantis108]

Well, I have a guy in town who used to do a more "traditional" form of TKD. They are less into the sport side supposedly and more emphasis on the self defensive aspect etc. He came to "crosstrain" but he ended up letting his ego get the better of him. Anyway, the problem is not really technical. The problem is the mindset.

He can handle breakfalling and grappling not too bad but his heart is always set on the wonderful axe kicks, spinning back kicks and all those stuff. At first, he has virtually no hand strikes. We showed him our stuff. Then he went to train Boxing and grappling a bit and then he returned to "train"/spar. While there was dramatic improvement on the hands, he still finds it hand to deal with our hands especially the elbows. This couples with the aggressive game plan that we have (mind you it's only semi hard contact). He ended up being mad that we deprived him of his game. He feel like it's unfair because he was "holding" back with his kick; however, in our matches there was no such rule in saying you can't punch and kick as fast and hard as you can. So... it really is more about what the person wants out of the crosstraining then anything else IMHO.

Mantis108

[Jason Martell]

Not that I'm putting anything down. We do what we do because it suits what we want to train. For some they like the sport aspect of TKD and kicking. I see a lot of injuries over time from punching and kicking in the air with those cats and they ofter switch up to a "softer" style.

Well I was going to give you a link to some vids of mine that go over your question but my host is gone now so I can't post the link... :(

If you're 10 feet apart why fight? Either leave or get within fighting range. :) If you're still 10 apart from each other flapping your gums then one or both of you don't really want to fight any way so what's the point. Either be the better man and walk away or take the fight to him.


Well Imean sparring, for fun, or in the ring. But also on the street as I was saying with multiple attackers, you keep moving around, and your attackers end up being far away, and that's where TKD would come in handy, however, you are bound to end up with somebody right in your face, and as everybody agrees, if the opponent is right in your face, TKD becomes one hundred percent useless, especially if there is nowhere for you to back up quickly.

[Jason Martell]

Well, I have a guy in town who used to do a more "traditional" form of TKD. They are less into the sport side supposedly and more emphasis on the self defensive aspect etc. He came to "crosstrain" but he ended up letting his ego get the better of him. Anyway, the problem is not really technical. The problem is the mindset.

He can handle breakfalling and grappling not too bad but his heart is always set on the wonderful axe kicks, spinning back kicks and all those stuff. At first, he has virtually no hand strikes. We showed him our stuff. Then he went to train Boxing and grappling a bit and then he returned to "train"/spar. While there was dramatic improvement on the hands, he still finds it hand to deal with our hands especially the elbows. This couples with the aggressive game plan that we have (mind you it's only semi hard contact). He ended up being mad that we deprived him of his game. He feel like it's unfair because he was "holding" back with his kick; however, in our matches there was no such rule in saying you can't punch and kick as fast and hard as you can. So... it really is more about what the person wants out of the crosstraining then anything else IMHO.

Mantis108


I like fast step front kicks, or round kicks, and spin back kicks, but basically TKd is most effective where you can move towards your opponet while kicking. By moving towards I mean moving a good 5 feet. It's sort of like stepping and or jumping. Just standing there and kicking doesn't really capture the strengths of TKD.

[Mika]

Who are the really good N Mantis fighters? Any videos?

These guys surely are. Trust me, I have felt their power.

Anywho, in this short clip they are just playing around practicing takedowns, but nonetheless, you should be able to see beyond that. I hope you can.

http://www.potku.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=966

(Just click on the link).

[mantis108]

Well, no offence, my friend, in the world of Movie Fu, you would definitely see Kung Fu guy in a perfect stance and waiting for ten people coming to him. In that case, TKD taking 5 feet of space to launch an attack (continuous or otherwise) would work perfectly. However, in reality mantis (at least in my style) doesn't wait in a stance. Mantis stylist would actively use footwork to go for an opening or evade an incoming attack. I always advocate closing the gap as soon as possible and working from the clinch. Depending on the style, there are mantis styles that have some form of ground fighting. Not extensive as BJJ of course but it's not totally hopeless when it comes to the ground for mantis.

I personally work on ground fighting with both traditional mantis and BJJ esque ground fighting material. The best way to address the ground is to actually go rolling with the BJJ crowd. That you can tell whether the traditional stuff measure up or not.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[shirkers1]

Mantis stylist would actively use footwork to go for an opening or evade an incoming attack. I always advocate closing the gap as soon as possible and working from the clinch. Depending on the style, there are mantis styles that have some form of ground fighting. Not extensive as BJJ of course but it's not totally hopeless when it comes to the ground for mantis.



I agree with mantis 108 on this.. the only time I would say not to close the gap to get within grappling range is when you're going up against a much bigger, stronger, grappler. Then you'd want to stick and move. :) But that is part of the mantis fighters mindset, the ability to size up the comp in battle and fight your fight when you can until you can't.

[Dale Dugas]

Tae Kwon Doe is sport karate no matter how you look at it as shotokan was not the real essence of Okinawan karate as the Mainland Japanese changed what Funakoshi Sensei taught them. Gen. Choi admitted that he learned Shotokan when the Japanese occupied Korea for many years. TKD is not as old as they say. Its post WW2 at best.

No offence, but I have yet to meet a TKD person who has any hands. Very few TKD people have impressed me and those that have, had trained in kung fu, qi gong, or other Chinese arts to get the flow into their art.

My fiancee is a tkd black belt under a very well known old school TKD master here in Boston. She is having her eyes opened everytime we train in Bagua and Qi Gong and nei gong. She is realizing that she was taught something that was based on people being nice to each other and not battle. Going back and forth on line with another as you tap out points on each other is not a martial art, but a martial sport.



In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[Jason Martell]

that is true, it is a sport, however from holding the kicking pad for insturctors you realize that a lot of these guys can literally kick so hard to cause internal damage with only one kick. If they land that first kick, and your ribs break, there is no getting back up.

[Jason Martell]

I agree with mantis 108 on this.. the only time I would say not to close the gap to get within grappling range is when you're going up against a much bigger, stronger, grappler. Then you'd want to stick and move. :) But that is part of the mantis fighters mindset, the ability to size up the comp in battle and fight your fight when you can until you can't.


the stick and move thing is precisely what I wasy saying about taekwondo

[Brad]

TKD has some potentially great kicks to learn, but there's also usually a lot of extra garbage you have to learn too. Many of the forms are pretty much useless, you won't learn to throw a decent punch, elbow, etc., won't learn grappling (unless the teacher also knows hapkido), and it may also mess up your stance work. And a lot of the one step self defence aps are pretty unrealistic too. It's not something I'd recomend taking formal classes in.

[Jason Martell]

Can somebody tell me the difference between this style of Kung Fu

http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=mantisfight

and this one

http://www.mantisquarterly.com/Bung%20bo.mov

i don't know if they are even different styles or not. but looking at the first one made me think it could use some help from taekwondo for certain fight situations, but I don't know about the second one it appears pretty complete

[shirkers1]

They are both mantis... the difference being that one is showing individual aps and the other "bung bo" is part of a two person empty hand form ling side to bung bo.

I've always liked that first video, I like their body linkage when they throw punches etc.

[Jason Martell]

wait a second so are they doing forms or is that free sparring? and there is a ton of mantis styles, that's what I'm wondering are they the same style of Mantis, or different? and how do you guys think these guys would fare to a heavy weight boxer? and would their style still look the same against a heavy weight boxer? would it look so dang cool?

[Jason Martell]

Tae Kwon Doe is sport karate no matter how you look at it as shotokan was not the real essence of Okinawan karate as the Mainland Japanese changed what Funakoshi Sensei taught them. Gen. Choi admitted that he learned Shotokan when the Japanese occupied Korea for many years. TKD is not as old as they say. Its post WW2 at best.

No offence, but I have yet to meet a TKD person who has any hands. Very few TKD people have impressed me and those that have, had trained in kung fu, qi gong, or other Chinese arts to get the flow into their art.

My fiancee is a tkd black belt under a very well known old school TKD master here in Boston. She is having her eyes opened everytime we train in Bagua and Qi Gong and nei gong. She is realizing that she was taught something that was based on people being nice to each other and not battle. Going back and forth on line with another as you tap out points on each other is not a martial art, but a martial sport.



In Boston,

Dale Dugas

The majority of taekwondo schools suck literally. I honestly believe that Taekwondo has the most powerful strikes of any style. If you hold the kicking pad, you will find many blackbelts, who are skinny yet tone, yet their kicks are like hitting someone with a bat. I'm not exagerating. When a power strike is thrown, it will take a half a second before you can throw another one, as oppose to a Kung Fu punch combo where you can throw several punches in one second. However I don't know how well a Kung Fu master could block Heavy weight punches or knock out a heavy weight In a tournament such as Ultimate Fighting. I know that a good Taekwondo black belt could, however if you get the TKD guy into the corner he will get lost in the fury of punches. I know that if a Kung Fu master throws a continous chain of punches TKD wont work well against it because there is no half second inbetween strikes. If a heavy weight throws a punch though that will provide the half second opening the TKD guy is looking for. However TKD is very suspectible to a Jujitsu take down. I'm not saying that TKD is the better martial art, no martial art is any better than any other, they all have different strenghts and weaknesses. I personally think a Heavy Weight Boxer could take either a Kung Fu or TKD blackbelt, unless he knew both, however I think Kung Fu and TKD would both fare better against multiple fighters. I also think that in most situations Kung Fu is the better art to know.

Here is some good TKD, if you pay close attention you will see how hard they can hit, and how far away they hit their opponent. In a sparring match, you can just continue sparring, but if that was real, these gusy would be done fighting after just one hit, which is why I think TKD helps so much for multiple fighters, you take the guy out, and then move far away from where you just were before another guy gets the chance to come up from behind or get in your face.

http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=taekwondo

It starts out looking like it's going to be a slide show, but it's not

[Kristoffer]

Jason I think your to caught up in thinking about styles. Like they say, it's not the style it's the practitioner. Sure the style you pick will affect you to a great deal but the choice of style wouldn't determin if you become good at all. How many on-the-toe-bouncing TKD ppl have you seen? I've seen alot. But I know of TKD people who cross train with grappling and train their stuff with muay thai people, and they come out pretty good. And most Mantis I've seen has been pretty lousy and not on the standard of the vids in this thread at all.

Basically, no matter what style you practise. If you train realisticly and cover all ranges, train hard and meet other ppl from other styles to study/share/train, you'll get good. Yes, even Aikido people. :)


btw does anybody know what/where that mantis school is in the first link he posted? Looks like Hong Kong?

[HanRen]

OMG, TKD is sport Karate??? :confused: I've read dozen of books and met with dozen of TKD teachers they all told me that, "TKD is a century old Korean fighting art, you could traces its history back for 4000 years old or more, the story goes like this, one day, bunch of Korean (in ancient time) workers accidantally discovered an old stone carvings, on it, there were men posing with different positions, some with kick, some with punch and some with sparr with another man. then, this art is the mother of Korean martial art, or TKD". Ok this is another story about TKD Iv heard, from a Korean TKD book, "Before WW2, Japan had invaded Korea twice, one time, when the Japanese troops landed on a beach, all the sudden, 500 Korean men charged at the Japanese troops, bare hand, defeat the Japanese Vanguard unite, most amazing thing was, they were all TKD artists. In another story, during WW2, Koreans used Korean art, TKD, that it had saved so many lives of Korean soldiers...etc,..etc". So based on the fact, that TKD is originated from Karate, then all the stories about TKD are BS :( , perhaps its same thing that some Koreans thinks that Korea has 5-6000 years of history and Confucius is Korean. :D

[Jason Martell]

Jason I think your to caught up in thinking about styles. Like they say, it's not the style it's the practitioner. Sure the style you pick will affect you to a great deal but the choice of style wouldn't determin if you become good at all. How many on-the-toe-bouncing TKD ppl have you seen? I've seen alot. But I know of TKD people who cross train with grappling and train their stuff with muay thai people, and they come out pretty good. And most Mantis I've seen has been pretty lousy and not on the standard of the vids in this thread at all.

Basically, no matter what style you practise. If you train realisticly and cover all ranges, train hard and meet other ppl from other styles to study/share/train, you'll get good. Yes, even Aikido people. :)


btw does anybody know what/where that mantis school is in the first link he posted? Looks like Hong Kong?


they actually bounce on the ball of the foot, and sparring fighters from other styles helps dramatically. Yeah you know how to counter a round kick, you've done it a million times, but when you are confronted with an attack you've never seen before you might freeze up. I agree with what you are saying totally.

[Jason Martell]

OMG, TKD is sport Karate??? :confused: I've read dozen of books and met with dozen of TKD teachers they all told me that, "TKD is a century old Korean fighting art, you could traces its history back for 4000 years old or more, the story goes like this, one day, bunch of Korean (in ancient time) workers accidantally discovered an old stone carvings, on it, there were men posing with different positions, some with kick, some with punch and some with sparr with another man. then, this art is the mother of Korean martial art, or TKD". Ok this is another story about TKD Iv heard, from a Korean TKD book, "Before WW2, Japan had invaded Korea twice, one time, when the Japanese troops landed on a beach, all the sudden, 500 Korean men charged at the Japanese troops, bare hand, defeat the Japanese Vanguard unite, most amazing thing was, they were all TKD artists. In another story, during WW2, Koreans used Korean art, TKD, that it had saved so many lives of Korean soldiers...etc,..etc". So based on the fact, that TKD is originated from Karate, then all the stories about TKD are BS :( , perhaps its same thing that some Koreans thinks that Korea has 5-6000 years of history and Confucius is Korean. :D

all marital arts are sports, that's why you have competitors and tournaments and champions of the sort. a lot of TKD in America sucks. Most schools suck. but a good school with good students does not. I remember watching cops, where this guy was mugged by 3 people. He studied only one martial art taekwondo and he defeated all three people, then called an ambulance and waited for the ambulance and the police to get there, all three of his attackers were on the ground. they were all in their mid 20's and he was like 60. I also remember just rescently on the news in Illinois a 2 degree black belt in TKD accidentally killed a man in self defense. No style sucks, only certain praticers.

[Neophyte]

Hi All

Coming from a TKD background I can says that it is a very rigid art compared to Mantis. I trained TKD for a good 6 years when I was a teenager and now in my thirties still cant get rid of that rgidness after 2 years of Mantis training.

Isnt Mantis a "complete" art so therefore you have all that TKD has to offer and more, even the kicks. If you train your kicks enough then they can be as good if not better than TKD's. Mantis has the turning kick, front kicks and crescent kicks why would you need TKD. Yes it has some very nice flying kicks which I did enjoy performing but of what use are they in the street. You see someone coming at you with a flying kick and you just move out of the way. I think these where actually created for taking men off horseback from what I can remember.
Even the stances are similar to Mantis

As for avoiding their power, instead of blocking the kick straight on why not sidestep and deflect then move into their space ???

With the speed comes power and Mantis is very fast, so if TKD is taking half a second or so to throw a powerful strike what do you think a Mantis practitioner could do being a lot faster and with the same, if not more power.

I was very privaledged to have met Master Lee Kam Wing last week at a seminar and was amazed at his power and speed. The TKD people I new were not even a patch on him. No contest.

In just 2 years training Mantis I believe I have learnt more and improved more that in 6 years of TKD. IMHO Mantis has it all.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Cheers :)

[Neophyte]

The majority of taekwondo schools suck literally. I honestly believe that Taekwondo has the most powerful strikes of any style. If you hold the kicking pad, you will find many blackbelts, who are skinny yet tone, yet their kicks are like hitting someone with a bat. I'm not exagerating. When a power strike is thrown, it will take a half a second before you can throw another one, as oppose to a Kung Fu punch combo where you can throw several punches in one second. However I don't know how well a Kung Fu master could block Heavy weight punches or knock out a heavy weight In a tournament such as Ultimate Fighting. I know that a good Taekwondo black belt could, however if you get the TKD guy into the corner he will get lost in the fury of punches. I know that if a Kung Fu master throws a continous chain of punches TKD wont work well against it because there is no half second inbetween strikes. If a heavy weight throws a punch though that will provide the half second opening the TKD guy is looking for. However TKD is very suspectible to a Jujitsu take down. I'm not saying that TKD is the better martial art, no martial art is any better than any other, they all have different strenghts and weaknesses. I personally think a Heavy Weight Boxer could take either a Kung Fu or TKD blackbelt, unless he knew both, however I think Kung Fu and TKD would both fare better against multiple fighters. I also think that in most situations Kung Fu is the better art to know.

Here is some good TKD, if you pay close attention you will see how hard they can hit, and how far away they hit their opponent. In a sparring match, you can just continue sparring, but if that was real, these gusy would be done fighting after just one hit, which is why I think TKD helps so much for multiple fighters, you take the guy out, and then move far away from where you just were before another guy gets the chance to come up from behind or get in your face.

http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=taekwondo

It starts out looking like it's going to be a slide show, but it's not

Very nice vid.

If you notice on the sparring most of the fighters simply drop their hands when kicking, no wonder they they get hit so much.

Some very beautiful aerial kicks there, but can you use them in the street ??? In a crowded place ???

Dont want to dis TKD, it is effective against your typical Joe on the street but against a trained fighter, Im not too sure.

Cheers

[shirkers1]

wait a second so are they doing forms or is that free sparring? and there is a ton of mantis styles, that's what I'm wondering are they the same style of Mantis, or different? and how do you guys think these guys would fare to a heavy weight boxer? and would their style still look the same against a heavy weight boxer? would it look so dang cool?


Like I said the first one is just demonstrating actual individual moves out of sets. The second is part of ling bung bo which is a form. No they are not free fighting, do a search on the mantis board on free fighting or two person sets and you'll get all the info you need on the pros and cons of this for fighting aps.

You can have the same style of mantis but different family and look completely different so it really doesn't matter what style it is or from where unless you want to train with that specific group.

It depends on the individual fighting.. Those guys are probably 5' 5" 120 lbs so I doubt they would fair well against a heavyweight boxer if they were hit solid. But it all depends on the fighter and it's all guessing so who knows what those guys would look like. In the end we can only answer for ourselves.

All I can tell you is to find a school near you and check it out. If you like what you see then go with it, if not stick to your TKD. Authentic kung fu has a listing of a lot of good schools in the US. Or let some of us know where you're located and we can point you in the right direction.

[Jason Martell]

Appreciate the info. I've been out of TKd for almost two years, for inconveinence reasons, and I live where there is nowhere to study at the moment, but I'm about to go into job core, and I'm trying to picka jobcore school nearby somehwere I ant to study, and I'm thinking about training for more than an hour a dya, perhpas two different styles, or just go with one, and I know I will get critized for this, but I really care abou the flash factor in martial arts. When I say flash though I mean sparring, not forms. Forms never impress me at all. It's easy to look good with no opponent. I just want to enjoy what I do.

[Jason Martell]

Very nice vid.

If you notice on the sparring most of the fighters simply drop their hands when kicking, no wonder they they get hit so much.

Some very beautiful aerial kicks there, but can you use them in the street ??? In a crowded place ???

Dont want to dis TKD, it is effective against your typical Joe on the street but against a trained fighter, Im not too sure.

Cheers

I know what you mean, totally. That's the horrible weakness of TKD, if it's crowded or you don't have room to maneuver, it's just an incredibly horrible disadvatage. The flying kicks so to speak do make TKD fun, but tha't why I was wondering what people though about knowing Mantis and TKD, you can still have the flashy fun, but your more prepared for different kinds of fighters. I think the TKD kicks would help knocking out a Heavy weight, but you need to be able to dodge and block the punches, which I think would be a weakness of TKD. I think Kung Fu would help prevent you from being obliverated by Heavy Weight punches, unless they got hit, but I don't see a Kung Fu master knocking out a Heavy Weight.

Would anybody have any insight on being skilled in TKD and Wing Tsung?

[shirkers1]

I I think the TKD kicks would help knocking out a Heavy weight, but you need to be able to dodge and block the punches, which I think would be a weakness of TKD. I think Kung Fu would help prevent you from being obliverated by Heavy Weight punches, unless they got hit, but I don't see a Kung Fu master knocking out a Heavy Weight.

Would anybody have any insight on being skilled in TKD and Wing Tsung?

It all depends on the fighter bro... You can be a master and not hit as hard as a novice so on and so on. Some people are just hard hitters period and some people take hits better so the whole style thing is overrated. Find something that makes you happy and go with it. Just because you train a certain style isn't going to make you invincible. There will always be someone better or a situation you can't handle on your own with all training in the world. So best thing is to find a style that fits your mindset, body, and one you enjoy and go with it.

[shirkers1]

What does TKD have that Northern Praying Mantis does not?

In my experience, our kicking is far more advanced or at the very least equal.

Is it tkd devestating hand changes? Its deceptive footwork? Its 3 throws and 4 joint locks?


hee hee

I was trying to avoid the obvious.. :D

but I think this cat might be playing us to get things riled up.

[Kristoffer]

shirkers1 do you know where and who those people in this one are?:

http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=mantisfight

[Jason Martell]

Can kung Fu sparring really look like that?

Also can it look like this? http://www.mantisquarterly.com/Bung%20bo.mov

[Kristoffer]

Kung Fu can look like Muay thai. Kung Fu can look like greco roman wrestling. Kung Fu can look like Kali.. etc etc

[Jason Martell]

what's kali? that's kind of disapointing to know it doesn't look like that. I read a long article about how so many Kung Fu practicers do such beautiful techniques in their forms but not in their sparring, and the guy being interviewed said that those are the schools that produce students who perform good forms, while other schools produce students who produce students who are good at sparring, and that yes they can look like that when sparring.

[shirkers1]

shirkers1 do you know where and who those people in this one are?:

http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=mantisfight

I'm really not sure I remember hearing HK branch 7* as well but I'm not sure and it's purely a guess. It's so hard to tell sometimes because families look so different and yet look the same as another style when it comes to individual tactics. :)

[shirkers1]

Can kung Fu sparring really look like that?

Also can it look like this? http://www.mantisquarterly.com/Bung%20bo.mov

Dude it depends on the fighters..... If you're fighting a boxer of coarse not... because he's fighting his game and the kung fu guy is fighting his game. If two mantis guys go at it .... maybe it will look close but then again it depends on the fighters. :)

The video is showing a set that has an offensive and defensive side but is planned. Is there other options to use in that case? Yes and that is why I said do a search on the subject and you'll see what I mean.

[Jason Martell]

http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=kungfustreetfight

This is a kung fu practicer in a street fight it looks nothing like Mua Thai

[Jason Martell]

Dude it depends on the fighters..... If you're fighting a boxer of coarse not... because he's fighting his game and the kung fu guy is fighting his game. If two mantis guys go at it .... maybe it will look close but then again it depends on the fighters. :)

The video is showing a set that has an offensive and defensive side but is planned. Is there other options to use in that case? Yes and that is why I said do a search on the subject and you'll see what I mean.


What I mean is can they block punches the same way and throw combos like that. Will it still look flashy like that.

[Neophyte]

What I mean is can they block punches the same way and throw combos like that. Will it still look flashy like that.

I think it can look as "flashy" as this so long as you spar Mantis. I think so many beginners can slip into the kickboxing espue fighting and forget the Mantis they have just learned, I have been guilty of this in the past but having been training this habit out of my Kung Fu. Once you slip into the kickboxing role you lose all the benefits Mantis has to offer so just fight Mantis. :)

[Neophyte]

http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=kungfustreetfight

This is a kung fu practicer in a street fight it looks nothing like Mua Thai

Not sure what THAT is, some psuedo Karate/Kung Fu. Definatley not Mantis. A Mantis proactioner whould have ripped the guy in the shorts apart in seconds.

[Neophyte]

shirkers1 do you know where and who those people in this one are?:

http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=mantisfight

Oh to be this good, it would be a dream come true.......... :D :D :D

[Kristoffer]

what's kali? that's kind of disapointing to know it doesn't look like that. I read a long article about how so many Kung Fu practicers do such beautiful techniques in their forms but not in their sparring, and the guy being interviewed said that those are the schools that produce students who perform good forms, while other schools produce students who produce students who are good at sparring, and that yes they can look like that when sparring.

Well. Forms are a debated subject. There are different types you know. You have the traditional forms that makes up the 'core' of the art. Like the 5 animal forms in different Shaolin branches. These may look flashy, but when in application (in my opinion) doesn't look flashy. Also a form can be more simple. Let's make one up:

"Fighting stance. Left right straight punch. Low roundhouse. Back to fighting stance. Lead leg push kick. Right cross, follow left. Lead leg low sidekick. Fighting stance. Jab, right uppercut, step in with left elbow."

There I just made you a form. It's not mantis. But I'm sure all of these techs are in mantis. In any style you have to drill in the basic, and the basics of most styles contain punches, kicks, knees, elbows etc.



http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=kungfustreetfight

This is a kung fu practicer in a street fight it looks nothing like Mua Thai

Enough of this bull****. You're beginning to sound like a troll.

btw. Kali is an art that contains alot of knife work.

[Kristoffer]

I'm really not sure I remember hearing HK branch 7* as well but I'm not sure and it's purely a guess. It's so hard to tell sometimes because families look so different and yet look the same as another style when it comes to individual tactics. :)


Ok I see. I've never seen authentic Mantis in action like that before. Pretty cool. So what kind of tactics is typical for the different styles? Eating up the space?

[mantis108]

"Fighting stance. Left right straight punch. Low roundhouse. Back to fighting stance. Lead leg push kick. Right cross, follow left. Lead leg low sidekick. Fighting stance. Jab, right uppercut, step in with left elbow."

Nice form! But you are right this is pretty much devoided of Mantis "spirit". ;) The obvious one is that it has too much pauses in between combos IMHO. You can still make this into a mantis form though if that's the goal. :)


There I just made you a form. It's not mantis. But I'm sure all of these techs are in mantis. In any style you have to drill in the basic, and the basics of most styles contain punches, kicks, knees, elbows etc.

That's also correct. Good one. Thanks

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Kristoffer]

Nice form! But you are right this is pretty much devoided of Mantis "spirit". ;) The obvious one is that it has too much pauses in between combos IMHO. You can still make this into a mantis form though if that's the goal. :)



That's also correct. Good one. Thanks

Warm regards

Mantis108

Yeah :) As Jason seems alittle confused about how fighting looks like and forms I was trying to clear out the concept of forms. Hope I wasn't to blurry.

[Jason Martell]

I think it can look as "flashy" as this so long as you spar Mantis. I think so many beginners can slip into the kickboxing espue fighting and forget the Mantis they have just learned, I have been guilty of this in the past but having been training this habit out of my Kung Fu. Once you slip into the kickboxing role you lose all the benefits Mantis has to offer so just fight Mantis. :)


thanks, I think you actually gave the explanantion I needed. To be honest, I saw a link on this Forum where I was watching some black guy that knew kung fu, in some fights, I don't know if it was Pride or Ultimate, but he was good real good, like I think he could take anybody I ever met in my life, but he looked like a kick boxer, and when I look at boxers or kickboxers it looks like they just take turns hitting each other as hard as they can. And that doesn't look like fun to me. It doesn't look technical with sophisticated counter attacks. and it doesn't look flashy. and the way I see it, even if you are attacked on the street, it probably wont be with some heavily trained fighter. So as long as you can defend yourself, it doesn't matter if you can take on Ultimate fighters or pride fighters, so your first priority should be to have fun and enjoy what you do. And I think Flash is way more fun then just hitting back and forth as strong and fast as you can.

[Jason Martell]

Yeah :) As Jason seems alittle confused about how fighting looks like and forms I was trying to clear out the concept of forms. Hope I wasn't to blurry.


your right, at least when it comes to Kung Fu, because I ain't even met anybody that knew Kung Fu, except my TKD instructor, but I never saw him use it. And to get an understanding of that is the real reason I came to this forum.

[Vasquez]

No no no they don't go well together at all.. TKD is very stiff and honestly hinders the power generation of a mantis practitioner. It takes years to train TKD out of someone when they come to the dark side of the force... Mantis covers all the fighting ranges on it's own (although some feel the ground is not covered).. What I mean is Kicking, Punching, and grappling range are all covered in Northern mantis so why would you need TKD if the kicking range is already covered? Now mind you most of the kicks are geared from the chest down and the majority of those are aimed from the waist down because we like to be able to keep moving.

I disagree. they're quite similar. quick jabs and kicks. great point scoring styles.

[Neophyte]

I disagree. they're quite similar. quick jabs and kicks. great point scoring styles.

:confused: Sorry but I dont see the similarity.
Wheres the flow in TKD. Hey that rymes.. :)
It dont exist. Doesnt most styles have quick jabs & kicks ???

[Neophyte]

thanks, I think you actually gave the explanantion I needed. To be honest, I saw a link on this Forum where I was watching some black guy that knew kung fu, in some fights, I don't know if it was Pride or Ultimate, but he was good real good, like I think he could take anybody I ever met in my life, but he looked like a kick boxer, and when I look at boxers or kickboxers it looks like they just take turns hitting each other as hard as they can. And that doesn't look like fun to me. It doesn't look technical with sophisticated counter attacks. and it doesn't look flashy. and the way I see it, even if you are attacked on the street, it probably wont be with some heavily trained fighter. So as long as you can defend yourself, it doesn't matter if you can take on Ultimate fighters or pride fighters, so your first priority should be to have fun and enjoy what you do. And I think Flash is way more fun then just hitting back and forth as strong and fast as you can.

Yep I thinks thats the crux of it. You dont want to be just trading hits. Why waste all that energy ? You want to me moving, evading, countering, make the opening then steam in and rip the guy apart. Now I think thats much easier with the skills that is taught in Mantis so long as you practice these dilligently. But the biggest thing is to enjoy and have fun. If your not then training becomes a chore, you lose interest and you wont learn. I love coming out of a training session soaking wet, aching and exhausted. :D

[shirkers1]

I disagree. they're quite similar. quick jabs and kicks. great point scoring styles.

I'll bite troll.... You are getting weak by the way, you need to work on some new material.

I need a good laugh today so please enlighten us with your vast knowledge of both styles and give us a run down of similarites... I'll even give you topics all you have to do is answer..

theory
style
mindset
techniques (punches kicks etc)
footwork
fight range
power generation
internal
conditioning of the body

there are a few to start with lets hear what you've got, give us a run down of how TKD and Northern Mantis compare and why they are so similar in your mind... :rolleyes:

[Vasquez]

:confused: Sorry but I dont see the similarity.
Wheres the flow in TKD. Hey that rymes.. :)
It dont exist. Doesnt most styles have quick jabs & kicks ???

mantis plucks at the cicarda - good precise pressure point strikes with the tip of the fingers

[Jason Martell]

:confused: Sorry but I dont see the similarity.
Wheres the flow in TKD. Hey that rymes.. :)
It dont exist. Doesnt most styles have quick jabs & kicks ???


Well I personally don't think they are similliar, and that's the very reason I asked the question. It seems like they have exact opposite strengths and weakness, except they both don't cover ground fighting.

As for the flow in TKD, at the school I studied, the flow(assuming I'm on the same page) wasn't normally there because most TKD practicers prefer to counter attack rather than attack. Now there was this one guy with 10 years of practice who prefered to attack first, and watching him spar this other guy with the same experience except he prefered to counter attack, when watching those 2 spar it was beautiful, and it looked almost like a dance, from one side of the arena to the other, and I think it had the flow you are talking about.

One difference I noticed between my school and others, is that when sparring are shoulders face our opponent, while it seems that other schools, the students are standing sideways to each other, we also use more push kicks, and our feet remain very close together, with the knees bent, bouncing slightly off the ball of our feet.

[Jason Martell]

as for the problems of combining TKD and NM talked about here, what do you guys think about studying them both at the same time? If you are one of the guys that think TKD is useless don't bother answering me. You'll find prejudice practicers of every style. I have visted a fe martial arts forums, and the popular opinion is different in every one. Every style gets bashed, and every style gets praised. This is a Kung Fu forum, so obivously there will a biased in favor of Kung Fu. But I'm still hoping for insight from anybody that can give it to me. I just want real insight, not a "my styles better than yours answer"

[Kristoffer]

Exactly what is it that you wanna know? I don't get it..

[Jason Martell]

people said it would be hard to learn Mantis after knowing Taekwondo, because you would be stiff and rigid. What do you guys think if you were learnng them both at the same time, 1 hour a day of both, or 5 days a week learning kung fu, and one hour a week, going to a TKD studio and learning kicking technique?

[mantis108]

Hey, may be you are "THE ONE". If you want to Discipline Crosstrain, be my guest. If TKD is your thing by all means. I have never met any Mantis stylist that advocate TKD to compliment Mantis.

Personal experience, MMA or BJJ would be a much much better disicipline to crosstrain with unless of course you are going into movie fu. Well, in that case do modern Wushu.

Quite frankly, it's like taking a elementary school book to a university course and say "read this, it's good for your soul." :confused: There, I said it happy? :eek:

I apologize to the TKD practitioners at large. I respect the sport for sure. Please excuse my personal opinion. I have no intension to slight TKD at all. I also echo the queries that Shirkers1 post. Expound on those and let's see what's there to gain? Who knows may be everyone will rush over to learn TKD after this. ;)

Troll on, my friend, troll on. :)

Mantis108