Leo Fong Choy Lay Fut Book ?

[Firehawk4]

Is the Choy Lay Fut in the Leo Fong Choy Lay Fut Book Hung Sing Choy Lay Fut or Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut ? The Stances in the book look higher than say in Doc Fai Wongs Choy Lay Fut Book .

[Firehawk4]

And is the Cheung Kune form in the Leo Fong Choy Lay Fut Book Hung Sing Choy Lay Fut form or a Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut Form ?

[hskwarrior]

Leo Fong was a student of Professor Lau Bun of the fut san hung sing kwoon lineage. and the Cheung Kuen that he does is of the same lineage although his movements a little strange. and i am directly from this branch so i should know.


The one thing that doc fai had for a while was a noticeable Lau Bun horse stance, but i don't know about that as of late.


hskwarrior

[CHAZ]

Hskwarrior,
could you elaborate on what the difference is between a Lau Bun horse stance and another branches version. :)

[hskwarrior]

Chaz,

The Lau Bun Lineage has a very indentifiable horse stance. We call the Sei Ping ma "general horse" and that is the one that is very distinct. other schools such as the lee koon hung branch as well as the Buk sing branches use pretty wide horses- a good distance out from the width of the shoulders.

in our branch, the sei ping ma is just inches wider than the shoulders, and the tail bone is level with the knee's. the shape of the others sei ping ma forms more of a rectangle while ours is more square-ish. it is better if you were to see what i am talking about.

I'll try to explain it with this story.......i was in Oakland where i teach sometimes on the weekend, and i notice two people at different times practicing a choy lee fut set. i didn't recognize the set but their horses completely stood out for me.
each separate time i asked each one where they learned Lau Bun's Choy Lee Fut from. Both of them were shocked because the form they were practicing was a chan family form and wanted to know how i knew they learned Lau Buns CLf.
I told them that i could easily tell they learned our stuff by the sei ping ma they were using. they couldn't believe it was that noticeable.

in our branch our sei ping ma is mid-way (length-wise) takes less effort to maneuver with. you have more ground to cover when retreating, and don't move as quickly if your horse is long.

Now, i am not saying that a long horse is wrong, it's just not what we do in the lau bun Lineage. We personally feel that the mid-length sei ping ma is much more sturdier than a long one, and you can move relatively quicker as well. at our branch everything we practice is for complete practicality for self defense on the street if needed.

if you have the magazine (kung fu tai chi) my sifu has an article in, you will see the horse my sifu and Sigung Jew Leong are using. i hope this answers your questions.

Frank

[CHAZ]

Thanks for the answer it was much appreciated :)

Ian

[Fu-Pow]

in our branch, the sei ping ma is just inches wider than the shoulders, and the tail bone is level with the knee's. the shape of the others sei ping ma forms more of a rectangle while ours is more square-ish. it is better if you were to see what i am talking about.

When I was watching a Doc Fai Wong Video I noticed that he turned the feet out, then in, then out, then in to get into Sei Ping Mah.

I thought this was odd because we do the exact opposite feet in, out, in, then out.

If this method of getting into Sei Ping Mah is from Lau Bun then it would make sense why the stance is not as wide.

[hskwarrior]

I have never seen in any of the Lau Bun forms the opening you are talking about fu pow, but i know of what you're talking about if starting out in a standing postion and we were going to practice jot ma.

Yea, its as you said, for us we start feet together, the spread the toes out then the heels, you do this twice to get the right width of our horse.

in Fut San's original Cheung Kuen they do the same as us. only two openings. this mid-way sei ping ma is a biatch to practice because your legs are screaming all the time.

see, our kneeling horse is alot different than yours as well. i have seen your guy's bent knee from the knee down towards the foot completely flat on the ground while ours resembles more of a Football players 3 point stance without the hand touching the floor. another killer horse stance to practice.

in your sei ping ma don't you guys open at least 3 times?

frank

[CLFNole]

In sup gee kow da kuen and ping chan kuen there is a section that opens from the feet together and its at least 3 openings. I kind of do 3 1/2 but I like the stance somewhat wide when I practice. The narrower horse stance is definately a plus for actual fighting due to the mobility benefit.

Peace.

[hskwarrior]

where have you been clfnole, u've been pretty quiet around here lately.

frank :D

[CLFNole]

I have been kind of busy lately. I have been checking the posts but overall I have been lying low. My boy Joe told you and him had a good time in Texas.

[Fu-Pow]

see, our kneeling horse is alot different than yours as well. i have seen your guy's bent knee from the knee down towards the foot completely flat on the ground while ours resembles more of a Football players 3 point stance without the hand touching the floor. another killer horse stance to practice.

Frank, I think you're referring to the LKH way of doing it. Mak Sifu does more like the Hung Gar style with only the ball of the foot touching the ground and it is more square. Both ways have there advantages and disadvantages. The LKH version is more stable from the front. The Hung Gar way is more stable from the side.




in your sei ping ma don't you guys open at least 3 times?

frank

Yeah...like this....feet together.....1) toes point in > 2) toes point out > 3) toes point in > 4) toes point forward. So it has 4 levels to get into it....hence, the name Sei Ping Mah..."four level horse." I thought that was pretty cool when I figured that out....

Also, Li Siu Hung and John Wai's (ie Florida) students do their stances really low and wide compared to our school. So don't take one school in particular as representative of the whole branch.

[CLFNole]

Herein lies the evolution of Sifu's teaching. From what I have observed over the years, the earlier students tended to have slightly shorter movements and higher stances. As years progress slightly more extension and lower stances could be observed.

This is kind of a general statement regarding the stances as there are always some that prefer high and others low but in general the stances lowered over time.

For those of us out there who have been teaching for some time look at your own kung fu I'll bet it has evolved over the past 5 years or so and you teach differently than in the past. I know Joe will agree with me on this one becuase we always talk about it when we look at our old tapes.

Peace.

[Fu-Pow]

Herein lies the evolution of Sifu's teaching. From what I have observed over the years, the earlier students tended to have slightly shorter movements and higher stances. As years progress slightly more extension and lower stances could be observed.

I wonder if this is a function of more form and exhibition/competition over the years. It seems like when forms are used primarily for exhibition the tendency is to go lower and with more extension. On the extreme end of this is Wushu, a purely exhibitive art, where things are so low and extended as to be completely impractical.



For those of us out there who have been teaching for some time look at your own kung fu I'll bet it has evolved over the past 5 years or so and you teach differently than in the past. I know Joe will agree with me on this one becuase we always talk about it when we look at our old tapes.
Peace.

Good point.

[TenTigers]

From the little I have learned about Buck Sing CLF, Tarm Sam's horse was lower, wider and his strikes more extended, purely for fighting, never for exhibition.
The stance allowed tremendous reach,* while still maintaining the ability to recover with speed and balance. If your stance is too narrow, and you extend into the strike, you lose your power base, and your recovery capabilities. One would think that you would be limiting your footwork and mobility, but from what I have seen, this is not true. In Karate, "Lil K.A." aka Kevin Thompson fought from low, wide stances and was very quick, agile and explosive. He was also nicknamed "The Mongoose" for just these abilities. It's all in how you train. I think in CLF, form follows function. Most CLF guys I know are fighters first, performers, second.

*Sifu Dave Lacey once demonstrated this by nailing me with a chop choy from six feet away. DF does this like he's tying his shoes. I guess it's one of those Buck Sing "trademarks"
**I am not speaking on behalf of BSCLF, only about what little was shared with me, due to the generosity of good people, like DF and Sifu Lacey

[CLFNole]

TenTigers:

From the buk sing players I have met over the years their stances tend to be a bit on the high side since they are primarily concerned with fighting. It can be wide and they tend to lean into their chop choy (ie: lien wan chop choy).

Fu-Pow:

It has always been my belief that our style changed slightly for demonstrative purposes. If you have ever seen the old version of Fu May Dan Do you would know what I mean. Actually since you learned from Sifu Mak my guess is yours is the older version. It has more sei ping ma's whereas the version I learned has more gong ma's and is more extended.

Peace.

[Fu-Pow]

Fu-Pow:

It has always been my belief that our style changed slightly for demonstrative purposes. If you have ever seen the old version of Fu May Dan Do you would know what I mean. Actually since you learned from Sifu Mak my guess is yours is the older version.

Hmm....you might be right.



It has more sei ping ma's whereas the version I learned has more gong ma's and is more extended.

Peace.

I think I'd have to see the form to know for sure.

[hskwarrior]

you all are right in your own rights, and each school that develops their branches gung fu will most likely modify to accomidate new needs. The horse stances are in lau bun's branch is primary, and everything else is secondary. we feel no matter how good your hands are, without a strong horse your hands will lack.

As i've said earlier, a wider horse in not necessarily wrong, it's just not what we do in Lau Bun's lineage. See, because of all our past masters being "REAL" hardcore street fighters the width of our horse has always stayed the same because it works for "US". the wider ones may work for others. But i have to agree that somewhere down the line the longer and wider horse was geared more towards competition and the asthetics of it.

I am sure, that if our school trained strictly for tourney's we may have adopted to lower, more flashy style horse. Now Fu Pow, I have your sifu on tape from singapore and i could be wrong but i believe your sifu also used a pretty wide horse and will go look at that dvd now. if i am wrong i will correct myself, but if not my response will stay the same.

anoyhow, the only point i was trying to make was that if you know Lau Bun's CLF then you will be able to pick out his movements from anyone who learned it, much the same way LKH's trademarks are exclusive to his lineage. no one is wrong or right, only slightly different.


frank

[Fu-Pow]

I am sure, that if our school trained strictly for tourney's we may have adopted to lower, more flashy style horse. Now Fu Pow, I have your sifu on tape from singapore and i could be wrong but i believe your sifu also used a pretty wide horse and will go look at that dvd now. if i am wrong i will correct myself, but if not my response will stay the same.

It's all relative Frank. It's probably wider than yours but narrower than the Florida guys. One thing that my Sifu really stresses is that your knees must sit over your toes and your horse should be "square." If your stance is too wide then you can't do that and IMHO your mobility is a bit comprised. Looks nice but in practical application its better to have mobility.

[Sow Choy]

Regardless of stance...

When you see someone showing a form... Even many masters...

Do you think their physical ability is very good???

I won't name many names, but many are not in good enough shape (flexibility, endurance & stamina) wise to perform CLF correctly...

Over time the persons body will change, as well as their abilties and their ability to recognise evolution in ones kung fu... You seem, traditional kung fu can help you be free and fly... So dont worry so much about height and width just the correct physics and if your body matches the moves as well...

Time will help the person mold into the right form... not the other way around... The way i feel like this is because day after day month after month year after year... its the same thing... CLFNole knows what im talkin about....

Sifu Lee Koon Hung made slight changes in Fu may that i remember for fighting purpose... The old way had the sword on the arm, while the new way is a block and strike... He was always a fighter... Presentation was always a presentation of a good technique...

But I agree with Frank.... To each his own, no right or wrong way just try and find YOUR way within the boundaries of the correct physics...

4 levels is the the level between knees, waist, shoulders and eyes... as it was taught to me...

Joe

[hskwarrior]

ecksackery!!!!! (exactly)

to each his own. Usually when a student asks me how wide his horse should be, i usually tell them to what ever length is comfortable to them, just as long as they practice the same level horse each time.

We as well tell our students that in a sei ping ma, the knees should cover the toes, with the knees pointed outward. by pointing the knees outward you put a slight different amount of pressure on the outer edges of the foot, and this actually makes for a more "Solid" horse.

Joe best not be talkin' bout my fat ass!!!!! LMAO :D

but once again, that's the difference of the Lau Bun horse as opposed to others.
like i said, no wrong or right, just "your way" and i was only trying to explain that to CHaz.

frank

[CLFNole]

One thing I would say regarding us "Florida" guys ;) is that you notice our horse stance is low. How do you know this from watching the performance of a hand or weapon set. When it comes to fighting our horse is very high.

The reason for the lower horse when performing in public is to look better. Why would you perform for someone in the first place, you want to look good. What is forms competition at tournaments generally boil down to .... what looks better.

Stances will always be exagerated when performing for asthetic purposes and be higher in live situations for increased mobility. Regarding mobility Joe and I have never had any problems moving when performing but for fighting it would be a bit stupid to sink into a low horse stance unless we wanted to get are arse kicked.

But like Frank said, what works for one may not work for another. Do what works for you that is the most important thing because afterall if we don't do kung fu for ourselvese why bother?

Peace

[Sow Choy]

Another thing... :P

Low stances of course might look better... And for a show you want to look strong and capable, that is what CLFNole really is saying...

With the horse, and even bow stance, the legs are training to help generate the power... And the bow really is a buffer that helps catch all the power the horse and waist generate and throw... The bent knee catches and protects us from falling over, thats why keeping the toes inward a bit really protects the stance balance...

It makes me thing of last weekend in Texas, I was speaking alot with Master David Chin... He spoke much of the horse and its importance in san shou... For rooting to avoid being thrown... and by practicing low stance to really help generate power...

So he believes as I with low stances... Just another way to develop more unitary power, and learn to use the depth of a stance for a solid foundation when u need it... Low to high in stance... At least you will have a greater range...

Thats why all this "IS Buk Sing different than Hung Sing" is kinda funny... Each statement so far about differences has been nothing of any difference...

Even the stances... I am sure the old cats did it narrow and high... But I would hope we are improving and not the other way around... A while ago we were talking of the old fight in Macauu between a tai chi master and a white crane master... If those guys were good... Then the kung fu now is improving just fine...

Joe

[Eddie]

good h0rse is the key in san shou. not for looks (you not going to drop in a low horse to show off) but for stability and power. San shou take downs rely on strong legs. Simple take down where you face your oponent and pull his leg from under him, can only work well if you have a strong horse stance. The drop is in the legs, and its not really done by just bending over. I have seen people trying to do this take down by simply trying to bend over and grab the legs. You put so much straign on your back, its dangerious to do that in a fight.

Im with CLFNole regarding the performance and fight stance.

[Shaolindynasty]

I think the method of training stance in CLF falls in line with the theory of extension.

Train low to gain strength and stability also if you can retain mobility at a lower position then it will be easier to use at a higher stance.

Similar to the idea that if you train with full extension you may only require half that in combat but you gain benifits like increased power etc. from practicing full extension.

With that said there are times people can be just to low and just to extended.