Martial arts and weight training revisited....

[Fu-Pow]

I know this a contentious dead horse that has been beat to death about a million gazillion times...about 100,00 by me. However, I would like to offer a new perspective.

Basically, I think for so called "external" or "hard" style martial arts training with heavy weights for strength could provide some benefit, provided that it is done in the right way.

However, for an art like Taiji it is all wrong. In order for Taiji to work it is essential that the movement of your joints be unhindered. While lifting heavy weights may not impede flexibilty (ie the ability of the muscle to stretch) it can have an effect on joint articulation.

Every joint in your body can move in a circular fashion some degree. The shoulder and hip joints are especially mobile as they are ball and socket joints.

In order for Taiji to work all joints move be able to move in a concert in a circular continous fashion. If one of the joints is "stuck" or not moving in concert then a point of tension is created which can be exploited by another.

When lifting weights in a Western style it is almost always the case that some part of the body is "stuck". At least one part of the joint "machine" is not working in concert. Even in so called "whole body" exercises all the joints are not working in a nearly as concerted fashion as the they do in Taiji. This causes the joint to contract and stiffen and eventually not be able to move through its fullest range of motion.

Hence, Taiji has its own "weight training" methods. These involve using objects that can be moved in a fluid, continous fashion (ie weapons, heavy balls, etc.).

What is the function of the muscles in Taiji? Well mostly I think to provide support to allow the joint "machine" to receive and transmit force.

[Merryprankster]

Yep, you're still an idiot.

[Kristoffer]

Word





...

[red5angel]

keeeeeerist......

[SevenStar]

don't muscles contract?

[Chief Fox]

Just a visual (http://images.southparkstudios.com/media/images/602/602__image_09.jpg) here.

[red5angel]

Just a visual (http://images.southparkstudios.com/media/images/602/602__image_09.jpg) here.


not completely accurate, the guy with the stick looks like he might know what he's doing....

[Fu-Pow]

Well..... :rolleyes:

[Mika]

Not that I have read all Fu-Pow's posts, but we have chatted somewhere (man, MAP really is such a wussy place; the mods there are so uptight they never take a dump, what a destiny). This is the first really misplaced post of his I recall reading.

Weight training should always be done in a professional way in that it supports your main sport. Always. Amateurs who think they know it all and give advice to others are funny. So, if you're a n00b, make sure the person you are asking for advice not only knows what he's doing BUT that he can give YOU advice. Two very different things.

But it can be done.


(Why is this in the main forum?).

[Fu-Pow]

don't muscles contract?

Contract when?


(Why is this in the main forum?).

Because:

Kung Fu Forum (13 Viewing)

The flagship discussion roundtable of Kung Fu Magazine,
open to all topics related to the Chinese Martial Arts.

[Chief Fox]

not completely accurate, the guy with the stick looks like he might know what he's doing....
My bad, I've modified the visual. :D

[red5angel]

My bad, I've modified the visual. :D


bwahahahahahahaaha! :D :D :D

[IronFist]

When lifting weights in a Western style it is almost always the case that some part of the body is "stuck". At least one part of the joint "machine" is not working in concert. Even in so called "whole body" exercises all the joints are not working in a nearly as concerted fashion as the they do in Taiji. This causes the joint to contract and stiffen and eventually not be able to move through its fullest range of motion.

Where the hell did you come up with that?

Yawn. Let's review the facts again:

1. Muscles (or gravity) are responsible for ALL movement that you make. Yes, that means even Wing Chun guys are using MUSCLE when they punch. Sorry, guys, tendons, along with everything else that isn't muscle, can't contract.

2. Lifting weights doesn't make you tense. You might be tense for a little bit following a workout due to the increased amount of blood in your muscles, but that goes away. This comes from anything requiring great muscular effort and is not specific to lifting weights. Go sprint and you'll get the same pump in your quads. Throw enough chain punches in a row and your shoulders will fill with blood. OMG THEY'RE STIFF! Better quit MA.

3. Lifting weights doesn't necessarily mean you'll get big muscles. Look at 120lb powerlifters who are stronger than 250lb bodybuilders to prove this point.

4. Weight lifting doesn't make you inflexible. In fact, great flexibility WITHOUT strength is a repice for injury.

5. Trained weight lifters become more in tune with how it feels when muscles contract, and as a result can possibly perform a given motion with LESS tension than someone who has never lifted weights. OMG I JUST TURNED THE TAIJI COMMUNITY ON ITS HEAD WITH THAT ONE.

6. Decades of research and experiments by sports scientists > your sifu's knowledge of physiology

7. Science > you

Look, it's like this. Trained weight lifters are exactly the same as regular people, except they are more familiar with their bodies, they are probably more flexible, and they can generate way more tension when they want to. Both trained and untrained people can move with the same minimal levels of tension, and as I mentioned before, trained weight lifters are probably capable of less because they will recognize excessive muscle contraction whereas non-trained invididuals might not.

This is gold. Someone sticky this post.

[7th gen yang]

Where the hell did you come up with that?

Yawn. Let's review the facts again:

1. Muscles (or gravity) are responsible for ALL movement that you make. Yes, that means even Wing Chun guys are using MUSCLE when they punch. Sorry, guys, tendons, along with everything else that isn't muscle, can't contract.

2. Lifting weights doesn't make you tense. You might be tense for a little bit following a workout due to the increased amount of blood in your muscles, but that goes away. This comes from anything requiring great muscular effort and is not specific to lifting weights. Go sprint and you'll get the same pump in your quads. Throw enough chain punches in a row and your shoulders will fill with blood. OMG THEY'RE STIFF! Better quit MA.

3. Lifting weights doesn't necessarily mean you'll get big muscles. Look at 120lb powerlifters who are stronger than 250lb bodybuilders to prove this point.

4. Weight lifting doesn't make you inflexible. In fact, great flexibility WITHOUT strength is a repice for injury.

5. Trained weight lifters become more in tune with how it feels when muscles contract, and as a result can possibly perform a given motion with LESS tension than someone who has never lifted weights. OMG I JUST TURNED THE TAIJI COMMUNITY ON ITS HEAD WITH THAT ONE.

6. Decades of research and experiments by sports scientists > your sifu's knowledge of physiology

7. Science > you

Look, it's like this. Trained weight lifters are exactly the same as regular people, except they are more familiar with their bodies, they are probably more flexible, and they can generate way more tension when they want to. Both trained and untrained people can move with the same minimal levels of tension, and as I mentioned before, trained weight lifters are probably capable of less because they will recognize excessive muscle contraction whereas non-trained invididuals might not.

This is gold. Someone sticky this post.


This is true of Taiji, I am on a Diet..... weights!

The reason I agree to what is sayed here, Have you have ever tried to push a Master that can root himself, I have muscle bound guys from 5 to 10 people push me and cannot move me

strength/muscle is of no issue to a Taiji Man. I send your energy to the ground.
then I find your root and your gone.

Strength is your Qi. Feeling,Feeling,Feeling If I can sense your intensions through feeling which Really has to be taught by a master. (Because There is Many types of things to feel and the chances of Learning just from relaxing your muscle is very remote) There are many ways of learning to relax but theres many ways to change not only yourself but also make your opponent feel something that really isn't happenning at all, It becomes Just an Illusion. Weights only take this feeling away! This is my experience.

[_William_]

However, for an art like Taiji it is all wrong. In order for Taiji to work it is essential that the movement of your joints be unhindered.

In what way is the movement of your joints hindered?


While lifting heavy weights may not impede flexibilty (ie the ability of the muscle to stretch) it can have an effect on joint articulation.

Explain this, please. Joint articulation is controlled and performed by: the associated muscles responsible. If lifting properly does not impede flexibility, how can it negatively effect joint articulation.


When lifting weights in a Western style it is almost always the case that some part of the body is "stuck". At least one part of the joint "machine" is not working in concert. Even in so called "whole body" exercises all the joints are not working in a nearly as concerted fashion as the they do in Taiji.

How is this an issue? The purpose of strength training is to strengthen the body, not mimic the athletic movement. The end result is that you will benefit from greater strength, explosiveness, etc. in your athletic activity.


This causes the joint to contract and stiffen and eventually not be able to move through its fullest range of motion.

If training is done properly, this does not occur. There have been studies in which olympic weightlifters have been shown to have greater flexibility than any other athlete, except for gymnasts. There is no evidence that shows that strength training will cause a joint to lose range of motion if done properly. Maybe if you go at it mindlessly, but...


What is the function of the muscles in Taiji? Well mostly I think to provide support to allow the joint "machine" to receive and transmit force.

The muscle-tendon structures actively recieve and transmit force, not just support the joint. Muscle pulls on tendon pulls on bone = motion. The joint would basically sit there forever if the muscles were not acting.

[Finny]

Jebus - I'm just waiting for the

"This one time, a 285 pound bodybuilder came into my taiji school, but he was so tense from his bodybuilding, that lil' old 124 pound me dominated his @ss!..." stories.

To review -

"Lifting weights makes you slow/tense/inflexible/restricted/insensitive etc etc " = WRONG

"Lifting weights makes you stronger/more explosive/have more endurance depending on how it is done" = RIGHT

Christ, you want an example of an athlete who is supremely fit, very strong, LIFTS WEIGHTS, and is EXTREMELY fluid, sensitive, fast and flexible, look at any good boxer.

[IronFist]

K, everyone needs to go read my post on page 1 again.

[Vasquez]

I know this a contentious dead horse that has been beat to death about a million gazillion times...about 100,00 by me. However, I would like to offer a new perspective.

Basically, I think for so called "external" or "hard" style martial arts training with heavy weights for strength could provide some benefit, provided that it is done in the right way.

However, for an art like Taiji it is all wrong. In order for Taiji to work it is essential that the movement of your joints be unhindered. While lifting heavy weights may not impede flexibilty (ie the ability of the muscle to stretch) it can have an effect on joint articulation.

Every joint in your body can move in a circular fashion some degree. The shoulder and hip joints are especially mobile as they are ball and socket joints.

In order for Taiji to work all joints move be able to move in a concert in a circular continous fashion. If one of the joints is "stuck" or not moving in concert then a point of tension is created which can be exploited by another.

When lifting weights in a Western style it is almost always the case that some part of the body is "stuck". At least one part of the joint "machine" is not working in concert. Even in so called "whole body" exercises all the joints are not working in a nearly as concerted fashion as the they do in Taiji. This causes the joint to contract and stiffen and eventually not be able to move through its fullest range of motion.

Hence, Taiji has its own "weight training" methods. These involve using objects that can be moved in a fluid, continous fashion (ie weapons, heavy balls, etc.).

What is the function of the muscles in Taiji? Well mostly I think to provide support to allow the joint "machine" to receive and transmit force.

physical strength not matters so much as internal strength and iron body to take the hits.

[Fu-Pow]

In what way is the movement of your joints hindered?

It cannot move through its fullest range of motion.




Explain this, please. Joint articulation is controlled and performed by: the associated muscles responsible. If lifting properly does not impede flexibility, how can it negatively effect joint articulation.

Actually, I looked up articulation on websters, it just means "a joint." So articulation isn't the right word. What I'm getting at is joint mobility.

What is your definition of flexiblity? I would define it as the ability to stretch. Now there are common stretches that stretch out the joint and surrounding muscles in a certain direction. However, when you practice Taiji the joint must be loose and mobile in ALL direction. Practicing Taiji is like stretching and loosening your joints in all the directions they can move.

When you lift weights you use the joints as a fulcrum point. The fulcrum is in one plane of motion. Therefore you are creating tension in one direction and not the other. Eventually this unevenly tightens the joint and doesn't allow it to move as fluidly and circularily in all directions, which is a prerequisite for good Taiji.




How is this an issue? The purpose of strength training is to strengthen the body, not mimic the athletic movement. The end result is that you will benefit from greater strength, explosiveness, etc. in your athletic activity.

For arts that use "natural" strength then yes (like one that I practice, ie Taiji). There is a start and a stop. You want to be able to stop and then explode off when you start again. However, for Taiji, there is no real beginning and no end. Each move flows into the next. This is dependent on joint mobility or it will not work. You will get "hung up" on some point of tension and your Taiji becomes worthless.


If training is done properly, this does not occur. There have been studies in which olympic weightlifters have been shown to have greater flexibility than any other athlete, except for gymnasts. There is no evidence that shows that strength training will cause a joint to lose range of motion if done properly. Maybe if you go at it mindlessly, but...

Like I said, how are we measuring flexibility? By a stretch in one direction? Or by the ability of the joint to move through its fullest range of motion (and also in concert with all other joints in the body.)




The muscle-tendon structures actively recieve and transmit force, not just support the joint. Muscle pulls on tendon pulls on bone = motion. The joint would basically sit there forever if the muscles were not acting.

True. However, the point of Taiji is to avoid this reception and channel it through the body and into the ground. Force against force is a big no, no in Taiji. If you tighten up as you receive force then you are not doing Taiji anymore.




Jebus - I'm just waiting for the

"This one time, a 285 pound bodybuilder came into my taiji school, but he was so tense from his bodybuilding, that lil' old 124 pound me dominated his @ss!..." stories.

To review -

"Lifting weights makes you slow/tense/inflexible/restricted/insensitive etc etc " = WRONG

"Lifting weights makes you stronger/more explosive/have more endurance depending on how it is done" = RIGHT

What relevance does "strength" ie ability to lift objects around over a long time period...have to martial arts? Answer:none.

Speed and explosiveness are much more important. And as far as I know can be developed more from plyometric exercises than from lifting weights to make you "strong." Plyometrics demands that your muscles work against massive resistance in a short time period.

These kind of things apply to most martial arts. Taiji has a certain type of jin (skill/energy) than most other martial arts. It is like making your body into one big continous ball. So joint mobility and synergy is much more important than being strong or even explosive.

[IronFist]

Your muscles only know contraction and relaxation. They don't care if they're doing it against weight or against nothing. There are not different types of strength, nor are there different types of contraction. There is contracting and relaxing, and the only variance is with how much intensity each is performed.


When you lift weights you use the joints as a fulcrum point. The fulcrum is in one plane of motion. Therefore you are creating tension in one direction and not the other. Eventually this unevenly tightens the joint and doesn't allow it to move as fluidly and circularily in all directions, which is a prerequisite for good Taiji.

Your joint moves in its path based on your muscles' contractions/relaxations. Lifting weights does not hinder one's ability to move through a ROM. If anything it increases it. Go read my post on page one again.

[Merryprankster]

fluidly and circularily in all directions

Your elbow moves circularly? even though it's a hinge joint?

You may want to get that checked out.

Oh, and everything you post is wrong.

[SevenStar]

don't muscles contract?



Contract when?


whenever. But you stated that the joints contract...

[Ray Pina]

Is your lifting making your muscle long or short? What is the benefit and weakness of each?

Does lifting reinforce the idea and train the mind to fight against the force? What is the benefit and weakness of this?

How much time do you need to put into your lifting? Is there a ceiling? A weight that you simply can't advance beyond or can you train yourself to lift any weight?

What happens when you meet the guy who lifts more than you do?

How does lifting weight relate to fighting? Are you punching with your arm muscles? Or are you driving off the leg, using hip, rib, shoulder, etc.?

What is more important: can you hit or how hard you hit? How hard do you need to hit?

A professional fitness trainer is a professional who will encourage you to lift .... a professional internal fighter will encourage you not to lift, so will many boxing coaches.

Do you want a body builders body or a boxer's body? Or a wrestlers body? They are 3 different things.

[SevenStar]

it's not uncommon for a boxer to lift weights. It was uncommon in the early days, but is not now.

[Fu-Pow]

Your muscles only know contraction and relaxation. They don't care if they're doing it against weight or against nothing. There are not different types of strength, nor are there different types of contraction. There is contracting and relaxing, and the only variance is with how much intensity each is performed.



Your joint moves in its path based on your muscles' contractions/relaxations. Lifting weights does not hinder one's ability to move through a ROM. If anything it increases it. Go read my post on page one again.




Actually your joint can move even if the muscles directly around it aren't moving.



Quote:
fluidly and circularily in all directions


Your elbow moves circularly? even though it's a hinge joint?

Hinge joints like the elbow and knee don't have the same range of motion like the ball in socket joints. They can only rotate (like as in a circle) in one plane of motion. However, all that's required for Taiji is that you be able to connect one circle to the next and.....

.... you can move your knee in a circlular motion in coordination with the knee and hip joints....right?

If not, then you may want to have that checked out.


Oh, and everything you post is wrong.

What a stupid statement.

[Ray Pina]

Jebus - I'm just waiting for the

"This one time, a 285 pound bodybuilder came into my taiji school, but he was so tense from his bodybuilding, that lil' old 124 pound me dominated his @ss!..." stories.


Will you settle for .... "This one time, about 4 weeks ago, this 265lbs. weight lifting BJJ guy thought he was going to cream me ..... and I wound up smacking the be Jesus out of him .... on video."

He also thought the fight would go to the ground because he must of heard somewhere that that is the case 90% of the time.

I think that day was an eye opener for him .... quite literally.

[MasterKiller]

.... on video.".

Link?

dsffdsada

[SevenStar]

Is your lifting making your muscle long or short? What is the benefit and weakness of each?

neither. We are talking about strength training. You are essentially training your neuromuscular system to contract harder, increasing power output.


Does lifting reinforce the idea and train the mind to fight against the force? What is the benefit and weakness of this?

I see what you are getting at here, but those are unrelated instances. resisting against a weight will not train you to resist against the force or your opponent's incoming weight. However, that is not always a bad thing.


How much time do you need to put into your lifting? Is there a ceiling? A weight that you simply can't advance beyond or can you train yourself to lift any weight?

strength training is not time consuming at all. you train yourself to lift what you can. The current bench press record is over 1000 pounds though, so you can set high goals without problem.



What happens when you meet the guy who lifts more than you do?

what happens when you mee the guy with more skill than you? We addressed this one already.


How does lifting weight relate to fighting? Are you punching with your arm muscles? Or are you driving off the leg, using hip, rib, shoulder, etc.?

you lift with your body just as you punch with your body. strength training involves compound lifts, not isolation lifts like you are referring to.


What is more important: can you hit or how hard you hit? How hard do you need to hit?

if you are saying what I think you are, then it's irrelevant. the person would have to be completely hyoooge in order for him to be so slow that he cannot hit you.

[Ford Prefect]

Books are people's friends.

[Merryprankster]

Books are people's friends.

Only if you can read.

[Ray Pina]

if you are saying what I think you are, then it's irrelevant. the person would have to be completely hyoooge in order for him to be so slow that he cannot hit you.


What I was getting at is that, for me (and I stress this throughout), it is more important to train getting into position. Or for us, the golden rule of close your door, open the other guy's door AND THEN hit. It doesn't take much power to deliver a serious blow ..... but can you land it? Even boxers have a terrible landing percentage. 30 % is considered good for them.

If I need to be more powerful than you to close my door or open your door than I can only fight the smaller guy, or the very old, or women. As soon as you are more powerful I am done.

I am not saying that you can be a weakling slob and still fighting using "fantastic" technique. If you train and do a lot of two man sets you'll become powerful and develop condition as a side benefit.

My caution is that if you rely on these as an advantage, what happens when the other guy has that advantage? What happens when you get older? Not 30 .... I'm talking 50 .... 60 years old. Can you still compete with the strong, young athlete?

It's been my experience that at that point many start talking about insurance, retiring, etc. But at 40 and 50 you might be out of the ring, but still very much a part of this occasionally violent world.

I was beat by an older man about 4 years ago and this became very clear. I had every advantage on him but he beat me soundly. That woke me up.

[cam]

Taijiquan is weight training, in that, taijiquan trains you how to carry your weight. I guess you could strap weights onto your body as you practise, I wouldn't recommend that for a beginner...it's hard enough trying to get aligned!

[SevenStar]

That should be a basic of all fighting, and should not be hindered at all by weight training.

[Reggie1]

Actually your joint can move even if the muscles directly around it aren't moving.
Are you actually serious? I'd like to see how this happens. And let's take the effect of gravity out of the equation.

[_William_]

My caution is that if you rely on these as an advantage, what happens when the other guy has that advantage? What happens when you get older? Not 30 .... I'm talking 50 .... 60 years old. Can you still compete with the strong, young athlete?

I don't think we are on the same page here. Nobody is saying you can throw someone in a weight room and produce a fighter, but strength is a valuable attribute. It is a poor excuse to not build strength because you are going to age.

On a side note here, in edmonton there reportedly was a 72 year old man, Don Ramos, who clean and jerked 103kgs and snatched 72 kgs at the world masters.



Like I said, how are we measuring flexibility? By a stretch in one direction? Or by the ability of the joint to move through its fullest range of motion (and also in concert with all other joints in the body.)

I agree with your definition if flexibility as "the ability of a joint to move through its full ROM". I have yet to see that strength training will hinder this capacity.

However I disagree with your latter part of the definition 'In concert with all the other joints in the body', this not flexibility but skill.


True. However, the point of Taiji is to avoid this reception and channel it through the body and into the ground. Force against force is a big no, no in Taiji. If you tighten up as you receive force then you are not doing Taiji anymore.

Sure, in physiology recieving force is called eccentric contraction. There is no way to get around the principles of physiology. You can, in fact, specifically train eccentric strength, and you may wish to look into this.


What relevance does "strength" ie ability to lift objects around over a long time period...have to martial arts? Answer:none.

That is your own definition, and IMO is highly inaccurate. I highly suggest you look into the available literature. As for what relevance it has to martial arts, ask yourself this: would you fare better in a fight now, or after you have been on a starvation diet and lost nearly all your muscle mass? Strength has the same relevance to martial arts as it does other athletic activities: sprinting, throwing, jumping, baseball, football... You will find that all high level athletes without exception will have used strength training to become stronger, faster, and more explosive.

And, I view weight training, and plyometrics as part of the same thing: athletic training. The bottom line is to train your weaknesses.


For arts that use "natural" strength then yes (like one that I practice, ie Taiji). There is a start and a stop. You want to be able to stop and then explode off when you start again. However, for Taiji, there is no real beginning and no end. Each move flows into the next. This is dependent on joint mobility or it will not work. You will get "hung up" on some point of tension and your Taiji becomes worthless.

I don't see how increasing strength will interfere with having one move flow into the next, having no real beginning and no end, etc. You are not doing Taiji with weights, you are improving your strength, and hence there will be no change in your movement patterns in your art.

[Fu-Pow]

I agree with your definition if flexibility as "the ability of a joint to move through its full ROM". I have yet to see that strength training will hinder this capacity.

When will you see it?


However I disagree with your latter part of the definition 'In concert with all the other joints in the body', this not flexibility but skill.

It might not have been clear that I wasn't part of the def but thats why I put it in parentheses.




Sure, in physiology recieving force is called eccentric contraction. There is no way to get around the principles of physiology. You can, in fact, specifically train eccentric strength, and you may wish to look into this.

Eccentric contraction:
As the load on the muscle increases, it finally reaches a point where the external force on the muscle is greater than the force that the muscle can generate. Thus even though the muscle may be fully activated, it is forced to lengthen due to the high external load. This is referred to as an eccentric contraction (please remember that contraction in this context does not necessarily imply shortening). There are two main features to note regarding eccentric contractions. First, the absolute tensions achieved are very high relative to the muscle's maximum tetanic tension generating capacity (you can set down a much heavier object than you can lift). Second, the absolute tension is relatively independent of lengthening velocity. This suggests that skeletal muscles are very resistant to lengthening. The basic mechanics of eccentric contractions are still a source of debate since the cross-bridge theory that so nicely describes concentric contractions is not as successful in describing eccentric contractions.

Eccentric contractions are currently a very popular area of study for three main reasons: First, much of a muscle's normal activity occurs while it is actively lengthening, so that eccentric contractions are physiologically common (Goslow et al. 1973; Hoffer et al. 1989) Second, muscle injury and soreness are selectively associated with eccentric contraction (Figure 2, Fridén et al. 1984; Evans et al. 1985; Fridén and Lieber, 1992). Finally, muscle strengthening may be greatest using exercises that involve eccentric contractions. Therefore, there are some very fundamental structure-function questions that can be addressed using the eccentric contraction model and eccentric contractions have very important applications therapeutically to strengthen muscle.



That is your own definition, and IMO is highly inaccurate. I highly suggest you look into the available literature. As for what relevance it has to martial arts, ask yourself this: would you fare better in a fight now, or after you have been on a starvation diet and lost nearly all your muscle mass? Strength has the same relevance to martial arts as it does other athletic activities: sprinting, throwing, jumping, baseball, football... You will find that all high level athletes without exception will have used strength training to become stronger, faster, and more explosive.

My Taiji teacher can throw me around like a rag doll even though he is probably 6'0" 160-170lbs and I'm 6'7" and 245 lbs. I have way more muscle mass than he does. He's rail skinny, almost anemic looking and yet he can generate huge amounts of force. When he is generating force and he asks you to feel the part of his body that would normally be generating the force it is almost totally relaxed.

So tell me. What's creating the force? Because its certainly not muscle. Its something else. Its like torque from the inside out. Like a pulse of something from the inside. Its the joints working in unison from the ground up. No muscle or joint is working any harder than the other but they work in unison to create tremendous power.

In order to create this you have to be completely relaxed at each joint. Each joint must be able to "float" and rotate in all available planes of motion. When you can do this you can become increadibly soft (like an ocean wave) or increadibly turgid (like water being pumped through a fire hose.)

But weight training not gonna get you there. In fact, my teacher has specifically said that kind of thing is counter productive to Taiji because it tightens the joints and prevents on from learning to relax and ultimately is damaging to the body. Of course, he also says that about other "harder" styles of kung fu as well.

My teacher's name is Harrison Moretz, Taoist Studies Institute, Seattle, WA he is a disciple of Feng Zhiqiang, one of the old school Chen Taiji folks. If you are ever in Seattle stop by for a friendly demonstration. It will blow all your conceptions about what "strength" is out the window.


And, I view weight training, and plyometrics as part of the same thing: athletic training. The bottom line is to train your weaknesses.

Plyometrics are definitely more applicable to harder styles of kung fu. Weight training istrength is kind of useless unless you are mostly looking for balance and tone.



I don't see how increasing strength will interfere with having one move flow into the next, having no real beginning and no end, etc. You are not doing Taiji with weights, you are improving your strength, and hence there will be no change in your movement patterns in your art.

It interferes. For one, it sets up kinesthetic responses to dealing with incoming force that are all wrong, actually antithetical to Taiji. Secondly, it only allows the joint to work in a couple of planes of motion. Taiji does have its own "strength" training which involves heavy weapons and balls but the way these are used must still conform to the principle of distributing/issuing force evenly through out the entire structure and working the joints through the full ROM. If you are not learning to neutralize force but rather fight against then this is not as important. But this is one of the majore strategies in Taiji to set up a counter attack.

[Vasquez]

When will you see it?



It might not have been clear that I wasn't part of the def but thats why I put it in parentheses.




Eccentric contraction:
As the load on the muscle increases, it finally reaches a point where the external force on the muscle is greater than the force that the muscle can generate. Thus even though the muscle may be fully activated, it is forced to lengthen due to the high external load. This is referred to as an eccentric contraction (please remember that contraction in this context does not necessarily imply shortening). There are two main features to note regarding eccentric contractions. First, the absolute tensions achieved are very high relative to the muscle's maximum tetanic tension generating capacity (you can set down a much heavier object than you can lift). Second, the absolute tension is relatively independent of lengthening velocity. This suggests that skeletal muscles are very resistant to lengthening. The basic mechanics of eccentric contractions are still a source of debate since the cross-bridge theory that so nicely describes concentric contractions is not as successful in describing eccentric contractions.

Eccentric contractions are currently a very popular area of study for three main reasons: First, much of a muscle's normal activity occurs while it is actively lengthening, so that eccentric contractions are physiologically common (Goslow et al. 1973; Hoffer et al. 1989) Second, muscle injury and soreness are selectively associated with eccentric contraction (Figure 2, Fridén et al. 1984; Evans et al. 1985; Fridén and Lieber, 1992). Finally, muscle strengthening may be greatest using exercises that involve eccentric contractions. Therefore, there are some very fundamental structure-function questions that can be addressed using the eccentric contraction model and eccentric contractions have very important applications therapeutically to strengthen muscle.




My Taiji teacher can throw me around like a rag doll even though he is probably 6'0" 160-170lbs and I'm 6'7" and 245 lbs. I have way more muscle mass than he does. He's rail skinny, almost anemic looking and yet he can generate huge amounts of force. When he is generating force and he asks you to feel the part of his body that would normally be generating the force it is almost totally relaxed.

So tell me. What's creating the force? Because its certainly not muscle. Its something else. Its like torque from the inside out. Like a pulse of something from the inside. Its the joints working in unison from the ground up. No muscle or joint is working any harder than the other but they work in unison to create tremendous power.

In order to create this you have to be completely relaxed at each joint. Each joint must be able to "float" and rotate in all available planes of motion. When you can do this you can become increadibly soft (like an ocean wave) or increadibly turgid (like water being pumped through a fire hose.)

But weight training not gonna get you there. In fact, my teacher has specifically said that kind of thing is counter productive to Taiji because it tightens the joints and prevents on from learning to relax and ultimately is damaging to the body. Of course, he also says that about other "harder" styles of kung fu as well.

My teacher's name is Harrison Moretz, Taoist Studies Institute, Seattle, WA he is a disciple of Feng Zhiqiang, one of the old school Chen Taiji folks. If you are ever in Seattle stop by for a friendly demonstration. It will blow all your conceptions about what "strength" is out the window.



Plyometrics are definitely more applicable to harder styles of kung fu. Weight training istrength is kind of useless unless you are mostly looking for balance and tone.




It interferes. For one, it sets up kinesthetic responses to dealing with incoming force that are all wrong, actually antithetical to Taiji. Secondly, it only allows the joint to work in a couple of planes of motion. Taiji does have its own "strength" training which involves heavy weapons and balls but the way these are used must still conform to the principle of distributing/issuing force evenly through out the entire structure and working the joints through the full ROM. If you are not learning to neutralize force but rather fight against then this is not as important. But this is one of the majore strategies in Taiji to set up a counter attack.


LOL i don't see the relevance of what you write. Your references like goslow et al what ever that means is not even chinese. how can it apply to chinese martial arts. your body must be molded in a specific way to suit the style.

[Dale Dugas]

Like you would know anything about true training. try again clown.

Going to step up, son or keep spouting drivel?

In Boston,

Dale

[Liz C]

LOL i don't see the relevance of what you write. Your references like goslow et al what ever that means is not even chinese. how can it apply to chinese martial arts. your body must be molded in a specific way to suit the style.

The depth of your idiocy is astounding.

[7th gen yang]

I don't see how increasing strength will interfere with having one move flow into the next, having no real beginning and no end, etc. You are not doing Taiji with weights, you are improving your strength, and hence there will be no change in your movement patterns in your art.


True Taiji the strength is in your ability to Listen to your opponents energy In taiji we try to relax all joints, tendons, and muscles.

When you work with weights your muscle Tears, this is part of the building process of the body it repairs itself (It also been known to make the heart bigger according to studies) but in taiji we are taught to preserve our bodys to make them healthy (DAO) this takes your bodys natural Defense to heal or repair. Balanced energy is what I try to maintain, not stagnate in the muscles I worked so hard to relax!

what is the use of training for strength In taiji?, people have a hard time just trying to relax, why would you want to compound the problem. Hard qigong is also not good while doing Taiji as it can make you less sensitive.

In taiji it is about feeling your opponents energy as well as your own.

we can learn the external first then we can learn the internall second. its easy to tighten the muscle or strengthen it.

But try to relax using only the muscles nessasary to support the bodys structure(postures),

If you go from head to toe, and relax each muscle eyes, ears, nose, all the way down to the feet, and pay attention you will notice that some of those muscles have returned to a tensioned state. so when you think of relax it isnt be lazy it means awareness

Try to work out on a strength training exercise and then try to relax deeply you can't, your blood is pumping(Loss of awareness) then this does not just subside you end up sore, then you have to tend to your muscle ache(loss awareness again) then you have to worry about getting injured,plus the down time for that ( BIG loss of awareness), Then if you train say three times a week/Mon,wed,fri

when would you be able do your Taiji properly?

you would always have tension I dont want to spend a lifetime 10-20 years to master it.

you can do one but shouldn't do both.

Just a thought :)

[IronFist]

This thread is hilarious.

[Vasquez]

Like you would know anything about true training. try again clown.

Going to step up, son or keep spouting drivel?

In Boston,

Dale

FTI I've confronted bouncers, boxers and brawlers before. my main concern is not to hurt them too much.

[Finny]

This thread is hilarious.

Very true.

This has to be the most ridiculous thread I've ever encountered.

[IronFist]

This is why I always say "don't learn about weight lifting from a martial artist."

Unless that martial artist is a Ford Prefect or a Toby or a Samurai Jack.

[FuXnDajenariht]

whos heard the new immolation cd?

its roxoring my boxor as we speak :D

[IronFist]

I've never heard of Immolation. What is it? I'm rocking out to some Vomitron right now. Vomitron r0x0rs my b0x0rs. They did a metal version of all the music in Contra for NES, as well as some metal remakes of other songs, and some kick ass prog instrumentals.

[FuXnDajenariht]

metal band thats been kicking ass in the new york scene for 14 years.

interestin concept with the whole NES music thing. :D

[Pork Chop]

I'm gonna play devil's advocate on this dead horse.

This argument isn't dead in boxing circles.

My boxing coach has trained with Lou Duva and Angelo Dundee, among others. He had a pretty extensive amateur career and didn't do poorly in the pros, but it's hard not to get outshined by your brother when he's sugar ray leonard. Roger lives by this still, and according to him, Ray followed this during his fighting career; but he says weights aren't all that in boxing. He gives me a hard time anytime he sees me lifting weights.

From the underground:
"Sandy Saddler also said "lifting weights will make you stronger but not a harder puncher in most cases". I asked him what he meant by that and he said it will make a guy stronger in the clinches and harder to push around but in most instances won't make him hit harder. He said that "balance and leverage make punching power" I just thought I would pass that along."

Sandy Sadler was a lightweight champion and a co-trainer of George Foreman (alongside Archie Moore):
http://www.stives-town.info/citizens/boxing/photos/btn_58.htm

Ernie Shavers was known as one of the hardest punchers ever:
http://www.autographedtoyou.com/CelebPics/earnie_shavers1.jpg

Tommy Hitman Hearns was deadly back in the day (he's the guy with the fro up top):
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005MFJ1.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg


None of whom, obviously, spent the amount of time lifting weights as Holyfield, a boxer known more for his ridiculous chin than his power:
http://images.art.com/images/products/large/10104000/10104807.jpg

In boxing, speed beats power (ali - liston) and power beats strength (hearns' fights and hrm tyson bruno?); so for those guys, having extra strength in the clinch or a little more weight to absorb shots with may not be worth the effort.

I'm not trying to say "weights are bad" but I think I can understand the argument that there are other ways you can spend your time and energy that may be more suited to your fighting style.

Personally I stick with the weights coz strength in the clinch is a big deal in Muay Thai (same for san shou and mma). Sheer weight can make a difference in taichi as well.

Not to steal the thread, but while everyone's here:
personal trainer stuck me on a weight program to help with weight loss and maybe being a little stronger in the clinch; it has a lot of isolation though and is a 3 day split (chest, back, legs).
The extreme focus is really kinda wearin me out, but helps with the weight loss.

What do the training guys think of a more total body approach?

[Samurai Jack]

I believe that most personal trainers will put you on isolation exercises because they've been trained to get people dependant on expensive equipment that you'll only get in a gym. In other words, thier livelihood depends on having people come to a gym and consult them for thier workouts. Also, what works for a middle aged house-wife who wants to get down to a size eight, isn't at all what'll gets a fighter in shape for the ring (or the street).

Sounds like you already know this B, but you'd be better off doing explosive full-body workouts with big, compound lifts. Lot's of squats, bench-press, Pull-ups, Bent-over-dumbbell rows, and Deadlifts... lot's and lot's of deadlifts. Of course, I'm biased toward the deadlift, because it works almost the entire body in one smooth lift (which is what you need for MA), but I digress.

I hope the personal trainer isn't costing you too much.

[Merryprankster]

I believe that most personal trainers will put you on isolation exercises because they've been trained to get people dependant on expensive equipment that you'll only get in a gym.

I disagree. I think most personal trainers just don't know very much.

[Samurai Jack]

I disagree. I think most personal trainers just don't know very much.

Exactly, and they got thier training and licensing from whatever gym they work at, or an organization that answers to a large chain of gyms. What's the goal of the commercial gym?

;)

[Pork Chop]

It was 29 bux one time fee for the programs (diet and exercise).
The guy got fired a few weeks after, but it wasn't a big deal coz he stole most of his stuff from a guy who's still there, who's an ex-pro bodybuilder.

Like I said, the more specific exercises and the increased number of reps (10-8-6 upper body, 12-10-10 lower) made the workout longer. The longer workout is more consistant with my goal of losing weight; but I'm not sure if it fits in with all the other training I have to do after I'm done hitting the weights.

The idea I'm kicking around now is a total body workout, 2 times a week including:
squat, deadlift, assisted pullup, seated row, closegrip pulldown, decline bench, flat dumbell bench, and dips.
Also gonna hit calf raises, bodyweight squats, and pushups during my other workouts.

In other words, fewer workouts per week, more exercises, but a lil more variety.

[WinterPalm]

Did the boxers discuss which lifts they felt were no good? I would think that a boxer probably wouldn't want to train the bench press or related movements with weight due to possible residual tension etc. But exercises that would work the rotary aspect of one's core and hip movements seems like something they would want to implement. I know from personal experience that hitting the bag, iron palm, and proper mechanics help me develop a better punch then bench press or really any other weight exercise like that. Twisting ab exercises seem to help though as well as using footwork and wider stances, for pure power. I haven't done enough to say whether or not deadlifts or squats would contribute to that element.

I did find that squats, back when I was heavy into them about three years ago, really helped with my side kick. However, that force generated was more of a push against the bag than an actual hit. This is feedback from my friend who holds the bag for me. Overall I think that weight training can benefit one in raw strength development but exercises that are directly linked to the actual movement perfromed are much better.

However, my knowledge is limited to what I have personally done and experience so I cannot say anything about Olympic lifts.

[Vash]

I think most personal trainers just don't know very much.

Indeed. Which makes it all the more difficult for those of us with an inkling of the correct to break into the business, as it were.

I don't want to train middle-aged house wives, unless they are really, really hot.

[IronFist]

There is no such thing as "residual tension" unless you're talking a for a few hours after a set. If you bench press today you're not going to have any residual tension in a few days.

And you can get that same "residual tension" if you throw too many chain punches in a row, for example.

[Vasquez]

There is no such thing as "residual tension" unless you're talking a for a few hours after a set. If you bench press today you're not going to have any residual tension in a few days.

And you can get that same "residual tension" if you throw too many chain punches in a row, for example.

LOL if you do spm, 3 punches is all that you need.

[Merryprankster]

Exactly, and they got thier training and licensing from whatever gym they work at, or an organization that answers to a large chain of gyms. What's the goal of the commercial gym?

Yeah but that's different than knowing better, but having intent to screw with you...

The difference between Manslaughter and Murder! :D

[WinterPalm]

These points I make are from personal experience. When I am doing bench press exercises for a period of time, my strength will go up as well as pushing power, but my punching power, fludity, and form starts to suffer. When I am not lifting weights my punching power, fludity of movement, and form is higher and I progress much faster in what I am learning. I don't knock bench press but to me the benefits of it are limited. As an experiment, my bench has always been pitiful and I have usually only done pulling exercises and pushups. '

About one year ago I was doing some bench for about two months. I was doing dumbbells with only fifty in each hand for five to six reps. These reps were very hard and sometimes I couldn't even get one. However, since then and even before then I have been training with dynamic tension in the forms I learn at the Kwoon. I have also been doing all sorts of pushups and burpees, etc. I recently tried the dumbbells again and got sixty for several easy sets. I know I could have gone for seventy or even sevety-five but I didn't bother. Anyway, my point is that without weight training I have developed much more pushing power from doing only dynamic tension and pushups. Most say this is not possible but I believe it is.

I understand many are into size or raw strength and that is an asset but for me these exercises to not benefit my health or fighting ability.

[Merryprankster]

WP,

Sounds like the problem is with you, not the weights/exercises.

[WinterPalm]

The problem is probably not myself as I do the exercises properly, with strict form but it still offers very little carry over to doing a martial art. That is, one with predominantly striking. As the boxing article from top coaches for world class athletes supports this opinion I do not think the problem is me. Where more brute strength is an issue, over technique and proper execution of technique and skills, then I would say that raw strength is important but the goal of kung fu training is not to have to muscle through everything as one can easily meet another that is quite stronger, but another with high martial art skill is not very likely to happen, even if it does, your skill better be trained very, very well!

[IronFist]

Punching fluidity is neurological adaptation. As long as you continue to practice MA and don't take a break from it during your lifting cycles your performance shouldn't suffer. If you're stopping MA and only doing bench press, then no wonder your performance decreases.

[Merryprankster]

The problem is probably not myself as I do the exercises properly, with strict form but it still offers very little carry over to doing a martial art. That is, one with predominantly striking. As the boxing article from top coaches for world class athletes supports this opinion I do not think the problem is me. Where more brute strength is an issue, over technique and proper execution of technique and skills, then I would say that raw strength is important but the goal of kung fu training is not to have to muscle through everything as one can easily meet another that is quite stronger, but another with high martial art skill is not very likely to happen, even if it does, your skill better be trained very, very well!

Garbage. I love the insinuation that the goal of Kung Fu is one thing, as though the goal of other fighting arts isn't skill.

The boxing coaches listed are from the "old school," just like "old school" football coaches said weights make you slow and easy to break. The old school also think that 15 miles of road work is how you get in fighting shape (conclusively demonstrated wrong).


Punching fluidity is neurological adaptation. As long as you continue to practice MA and don't take a break from it during your lifting cycles your performance shouldn't suffer. If you're stopping MA and only doing bench press, then no wonder your performance decreases.

This too.

Weights don't make you slow. The problem is people lifting big and slow. If you focus on accelerating throughout the entire range of motion, it's not an issue.

Again, sounds like the problem is with you, not with weights.

[WinterPalm]

I was not implying only kung fu had as a goal technique. But often the use of weights are used to develop pure strength, particularily the bench press. Like I said, it definately has an effect on how well you can push stuff but it doesn't really seem to have any carry over to training your punch. When you punch you only have resistance at the end of the motion, this is not something you can train with weights. A heavy bag is a much better tool to develop a good punch.

And no I did not stop training in kung fu during those periods. I was merely saying that it is possible that bench press does very little to improve punching power. However, if you guys find that it benefits your kung fu practice then by all means, continue to do so. It could be that different styles have differnent ideas of power generating and that is where the confusion is. To each his own but I found it interesting how the age old adage of you need to lift weights to be able to lift weights, or that you cannot increase max lifts through dynamic tension and pushups, seems false in this case. Just an observation that I thought was interesting, but, again, we are all seeking success in whatever art and so if the means do not defeat the ends, then go for it.

[WinterPalm]

Oh yeah, I didn't mention anything about weights making you slow nor did I say anything against any other art but because this is a kung fu forum, I mention that art in the post to make the point.

[Fu-Pow]

You know what'd be really funny...is if after all this defense of weight lifting and arcane physiological knowledge...Merryprankster turned out to be a big fat slob. ;)

(We do know he spends a lot of time on the computer after all.)

[Pork Chop]

actually, I'm the big fat slob, MP's ripped.

the only exercises i saw recommended were like cable flies coz they help with hooks. Yes, they're old school. No, I'm not sure I agree with them, aside from the observation that large, defined muscles and being able to lift more weights don't have much of an effect on punching power.

I try to do sprint work and distance work for cardio (usually on different days or different parts of the workout); i find the 2 to be synergistic. Sprints help me continuously batter people with combos nonstop. Upping my distance work lately has coincided with some weight loss and it helps keep me going between rounds.

Had my first BJJ class tonite and rolled like 5, 5 min rounds at the end. I've been feeling ill the last couple days and mistakenly thought I'd take it easy. Before that I did my lil total body workout, with one set of 10 reps per exercise & medium amount of weight. It went pretty well, my strength on the exercises held up much better than usual. Think I may continue to do this and add more sets and weight slowly.

[_William_]

For the end purpose of increasing punching power, it is necessary to train not only absolute strength but also speed-strength. After all the underlying goal is to improve power.

So as MP said, lifting ballistically would be a necessary part of how a martial artist should train. This along with training absolute strength will increase explosiveness.

[Finny]

There's a reason why 99.9% of top level:

Boxers

Kickboxers

Judo competitors

MMA Fighters

Wrestlers

Matter of fact, just about every top level sportspeople, LIFT WEIGHTS.

Figure it out guys - it's not hard.

[Vasquez]

There's a reason why 99.9% of top level:

Boxers

Kickboxers

Judo competitors

MMA Fighters

Wrestlers

Matter of fact, just about every top level sportspeople, LIFT WEIGHTS.

Figure it out guys - it's not hard.

LOL big mix up between tag play in a sports compared to real life self defence.

[cam]

It all comes down to time, how much time do you have to practise?
If you're a pro then you will spend 4-8? hours a day working on forms, bag work, road work, weight training......
If like myself you get 1-2 hours of uninterrupted training a day you may find it difficult to supplement your training. It's a matter of choice, myself I have no illusions of being a pro fighter but I would like to develop some skill.

[Merryprankster]

LOL big mix up between tag play in a sports compared to real life self defence.

Yup. There's a big difference between what you do in a kwoon and real life self defence as well.

Everybody has rules, whether its the training hall or a boxing match. Or do you have a lot of knife wounds, concussions, and ball-sac surgery at your gym?

Glad that's cleared up...

[SevenStar]

It all comes down to time, how much time do you have to practise?
If you're a pro then you will spend 4-8? hours a day working on forms, bag work, road work, weight training......
If like myself you get 1-2 hours of uninterrupted training a day you may find it difficult to supplement your training. It's a matter of choice, myself I have no illusions of being a pro fighter but I would like to develop some skill.

our thai boxing classes are 1.5 hours - we still manage to work in pad work, bagwork, calesthenics, skill work and anaerobic training. Why? It's all integrated within thai boxing. The same can be said of bjj, wrestling, judo, etc. It's all in how you train, that's all.

running and weight training I do on my own outside of class, however we do have a bench and some weights at the school.

[SevenStar]

LOL big mix up between tag play in a sports compared to real life self defence.



so tell me, what's so real about what you do? So far, in my time working club security, the majority of what I've had to use is wrestling and judo... It's funny how applicable tag sports can be in real life self defense...

[cam]

Sevenstar, not only is it how you train but what you train. My understanding of Muay Thai is limited, do you train Krabi Krabong? or it's ring equivalent M.T.? What exactly is the relationship between the two?
As far as I am aware wrestling, judo , bjj have no forms, while a big component of TCC is forms, this may determine your training regime, that, and what you want to get out of your training.

[7th gen yang]

I thought the formula for power was Mass times speed equals power :confused:

aren't we trying to develop punching,kicking power not how much we can push our opponents around the ring if my body is behind the punch/kick what else is needed.

and how much strength is really needed the fact is every one is different.

if your slow work on speed
if your fast without any power work on using the whole body to punch/kick (Technique)
if your weak work on your strength

again how much strength is really needed? yes I Agree strength is needed, but there is a point in your training when strength is no longer an Issue

Learn to adapt to your opponents strengths/weaknesses! IMO

[David Jamieson]

Well it's Mass X Accelration = Force but you were close enough to get the cheap cigar, just not the cuban. :D

Having said that, people who are into wieght lifting to augment their ma skills go about it diferently than say a body builder. Why? To develop functional strength that is germane to the actual agenda which is ma and not esthetic.

Functional strength has a lot of paths and each individual comes with attributes of there own at the start.

Body builders are about the esthetic. They aren't about functional strength, they aren't about ma, they are about cut, ripped, tone and buff and that's the agenda. Yes, they have methods that can be adapted to a functional strength development model, but a body builder can't help you with ma any more than you can help him with his esthetic through your ma. They are two ships passing in the night off the radar of each. :p

Many martial artists are now getting into functional strength development through the use of devices that work in the ranges of motion that they will employ in their martial art. Kettle bells, Clubs, regular weights with specific exercises and so on.

Also, be careful of diet and the stresses that weight lifting will do to your body. Joint problems, tendonitis et al will need to be addressed as you age and if you are not on a whole body focus program as has been mentioned. NOt just round robin lifting to benefit all your muscle groups, but what you eat, your breathing patterns, your cv strength and endurance, your functional strength and all else required to make you a physical specimen worthy of the envy of your peers and all else (muwhahahahaha...I wish :p )

Ever wonder why farmers and fishermen are so freaking strong? It is their functional strength that is created by doing what they do. So if you want to increase your strength do it in a fashion that fits your agenda.

Hitting power comes from the formula above. But the approach to having the mass and achieving the acceleration has a lot to do with augmentation and correction of "form" or structure in the fighter.
This is quite oftened referred to as the position of strength versus the position of weakness and has everything to do with correct mechanics in the creation and application of forces be they short powered/long powered or falling powered. These three important powers are required for the ranges of fighting and there are methods that will increase your own posession of them. But the method needs to be sound.

and just because you look good or are good at something doesn't qualify you as one who has the ability to impart that method. That's where teaching skills come in and this is all too often overlooked or misrepresented or misperceived.

there are as many skilled people out there who simply are not good teachers as there are unskilled peeps who have the information and the method to disseminate it.

Ultimately, YOU are responsible for the decisions you make, the approaches you take and the effects of the causes you have begun.

Train to your objective.

[7th gen yang]

Don't get me wrong David I do agree with strength training, Just this thread has been beet to hell I try to make things simple to understand I'm just a simple person why make things harder than they really are! every one does have their own path when I fought shooto in japan I had to train different, I do Taiji now and have learned a new way! so yes train to your own agenda! :)

[Fu-Pow]

so tell me, what's so real about what you do? So far, in my time working club security, the majority of what I've had to use is wrestling and judo... It's funny how applicable tag sports can be in real life self defense...

But dealing with some drunk guy in a bar who your not supposed to hurt and being in a life or death situation where you may have to kill/maim or be killed/maimed are a little different now aren't they?

Apples and oranges really.

[David Jamieson]

But dealing with some drunk guy in a bar who your not supposed to hurt and being in a life or death situation where you may have to kill/maim or be killed/maimed are a little different now aren't they?

Apples and oranges really.


you're splitting haits here Fu.

The guy dealing with the drunk in teh bar is also positioning himself in a place where the situations that arise have the potential of life and death and dealing with that. It's not about tossing andy capp because he puked on the st louis mirror again.

LEO's, Doormen, square badges and prison guards as well as nurses, care workers and a few other fields I haven't mentioned could all do with some martial training and for the most part they do.

What they don't do is traditional regimens that are doled out in traditional formats. What they do do is compile aggregate scenarios of potential occurences and focus on the attributes and skills required to deal with those situations. Statitically speaking, this alone puts them in a better position to handle life or death situations than an aggregate of martial artists doing form work, light sparring with their peers and youngers etc etc and not dealing with everyday scenarios and those high percentage techs known to be usable in the handling of those scenarios.

Of course this is oppositional to sitting in a horse stance and thinking of a single point of light to improve your positive outlook on life :rolleyes: But then I never did agree with the pseudo psychology concepts that are doled out in what is all too often called martial art, but in reality, isn't that close to what it calls itself.

But that's getting back to the whole, you can't swim if you don't go in the water and so, I'll just reiterate, dealing with drunks who've had too much is the easy part, but what about the GB with a chunk who wants to waste the DJ cause he's got a beef? Deal with that and you can count yourself as one of the few who have had actual experience.

[Vasquez]

you're splitting haits here Fu.

The guy dealing with the drunk in teh bar is also positioning himself in a place where the situations that arise have the potential of life and death and dealing with that. It's not about tossing andy capp because he puked on the st louis mirror again.

LEO's, Doormen, square badges and prison guards as well as nurses, care workers and a few other fields I haven't mentioned could all do with some martial training and for the most part they do.

What they don't do is traditional regimens that are doled out in traditional formats. What they do do is compile aggregate scenarios of potential occurences and focus on the attributes and skills required to deal with those situations. Statitically speaking, this alone puts them in a better position to handle life or death situations than an aggregate of martial artists doing form work, light sparring with their peers and youngers etc etc and not dealing with everyday scenarios and those high percentage techs known to be usable in the handling of those scenarios.

Of course this is oppositional to sitting in a horse stance and thinking of a single point of light to improve your positive outlook on life :rolleyes: But then I never did agree with the pseudo psychology concepts that are doled out in what is all too often called martial art, but in reality, isn't that close to what it calls itself.

But that's getting back to the whole, you can't swim if you don't go in the water and so, I'll just reiterate, dealing with drunks who've had too much is the easy part, but what about the GB with a chunk who wants to waste the DJ cause he's got a beef? Deal with that and you can count yourself as one of the few who have had actual experience.


drunks are push overs anyway LOL