Little Four Hands of Korea

[K.Brazier]

Here is the cover of a book I am working on.
It includes the complete 2 person drill.

This form, Little Four Hnads, came to our school in Taiwan via Korea. I would like to find more info from Korean Mantis folk who have learned this form.

As for those who want the book I will announce when it becomes available.

Kevin

[taichi4eva]

When I was learning Mantis, I learned a lot of jibenquan. The forms I learned were not true forms; rather they were techniques linked together and repeated more than twice. The forms that I learned were (in this order):

1. Ba Shou (eight hands?)
2. Wu Shou (five " ")
3. Qi Shou (seven " ")

I read somewhere that Qishou is part of a lineage of Mantis called Shuaishou, or "throwing hands." Could your form as well as the three forms above be part of Shuaishou too?

My Mantis teacher was Chinese but he was born in Korea. So I was wondering if there was a common link.

[LingChuanPai]

From your cover it looks like our 2 man set. Our mantis is from lin pin zhang lineage in Korea. We use a monkey hook instead of a mantis hook after the opponent attacks with the ridge hand, you use the monkey hook......not sure if its the same as yours, but looks **** close to it.
LCP :D

[mantis108]

Hi Kevin,

It's been long over due, man! Even Harry Potter 6 won't take that long to be released. You obvious not going to be a bilionaire any sooner. LOL...

Seriously, I am very excited to see Shrfu Shr proof read this also! We can expect the highest quality for sure. *two thumbs way up*

So, where to line up? :D

Warmest regards

Robert

PS is there an accompanying video as well? Or may be you are saving that for the "Meihwalu" release? ;)

[phoenixdog]

Another treasure from Pong Lai.One of the many things I like about this form is that it's taught from both sides,right and left and that it introduces the forearm as a weapon.

[Three Harmonies]

The forearm is a weapon?? I never knew! JK!! HE HE!
Mr. Brazier, let me know and I shall order a copy, but only if it is autographed!!
JK I will still order one if not!

Congrats my friend, long over due!
Jake

[K.Brazier]

taichireva,
Did you compare your qi shou to the 7 hands of 8 Step Mantis? Since they have the same name I wonder if they are the same form.
We also have lien wu shou. In Taiji PM of Mantis108 school the same form is called Lien Wu Chuei(?) Is that right Robert?
But we also have several short partner sets called 5 hands or 5 connected hands.

Very similar to Pai an, but shorter.

LCP, Do you also have forms the same as his...5 hands and 7 hands?
Since you are both of the Korean branches.

Also, could you expand upon your form little four Hands?
My Shifu has traveled to Korea to exchange PM over there.
They have also come to Taiwan and taught.

Now we do the forms mirror image, both left and right. But as I recall my shifu didn't learn it that way.
Do you only do one side?
Is the first technique the low block?
In the 2 man form do you start the action with the straight kick?

I made this book a while ago, but it is too short to try and sell.
John Scolaro is making a video an asked if he could include the little book with the video.

Since I pulled it out i thought I would expand on the book for the students I hope to get when I return to the states-November.

[mantis108]

In CCK TCPM, we have Wulangchui (Five Brothers' Punch), which IMHO is not a PM original rather it came from Jingwu. In fact, one of Mr. Pel's student in Shanghai posted their version on video of it somewhere on the net before. It looked quite decedent. I believe Wulangchui was a piece taken from one of the 5 Battle Fist forms although I could not remember which Battle Fist it came from. Regardless, it does fit nicely with all other Mantis drills. Try the Ponglai version of Yi Bu San Chui and even Little four hands with it. I am sure you will find it pretty interesting.

As for the others, like San Chui (3 punches), Wu Chui, etc, they are true important basics. San Chui can be played in so many ways that you call dedicate a whole video on it just to expound on the principles and drills that are involved. Wu Chui is yet another interesting piece. I believe Sifu Carl Albright has a drill Beng Da Bi Men (Crashing Strike Closed Door) that is the 2 men version of the Wu Chui.

Qishou (seven hands), Pai An/Yan Qing Po Shou (slap press) and Lian Wu Shou Qi Yao (Connecting Five Hands Marvellous Essentials) of the older manuscripts IMHO are definitely the absolutely gems of Tanglangquan.

Warmest regards

Robert (Mantis108)

PS I would love to see the Korean or another versions of these.

[mantis108]

It's a great idea to have the video and text as a package. I hope to see this product available soon.

Mantis108

[LawClansman]

Hello Kevin,

Lee Byong Chun taught this in the late 60's early 70's in Korea. I will check my notes. You can email me; lawclansman@gmail.com
I remember we went to Taiwan and I saw a number of people doing the same sets that we were taught (1972). I have Sifu Lee doing a set on film (super 8). A verson of Yat Lo Jak Yiu of which he taught 6 as was common in Korea.

[LingChuanPai]

When the movement is started by the straight(front)kick, we do a few variations of the block for the kick. In ready postion(left leg forward), after partner kicks you (1)step back into horse stance w/left leg blocking down w/ right forarm( you're faceing the leg). ....or
(2)do as your's
This is the first 2-man set we learn. name??? dont know....we always called it 1st 2-man set.
Many of our forms have a Korean mix to their name. And some are quite slurred in translation due to passing down from chinese-korean-english <- i guess
What is your lineage?
Mine: Lin Pin Zhang- Ji Chun Ting-Chun Dai Soung-Carlos Aguilar-Me

LCP

[mantis_fu]

Hello everybody,

I am if the Lin Pin Zhang lineage also.I dont know the Little 4 Hands form, but we do practice Shao Wu Shou (little 5 hands) and lui shou (6 hands). There are 4 sets of lui shou.

LingChuanPai,
I would like to discuss the Lin Pin Zhang forms with you. We have a form Chin Kang Chuan (gold-steel fist). I was wondering if you practice the same form.

mantis_fu

lineage: Lin Pin Zhang - G.M. Victor Cheng - Yun Yang Wang - me

[LingChuanPai]

There's a problem, i dont know the chinese names to any of my forms with the exception of Ba Chu and Xiao Fu Ien. The form that you speak of (gold steel fist) may be a form that we called tong long carowen?
Could you please explain the begining of the form?
LCP

[LawClansman]

Lim Pom Chang was a mantis stylist who was
born in 1910. He taught from the 1940's until 1982 when
he passed away. I met him around 1974 or so as I was
learning from his student Park Chil Sung. Lim Poon Chang
had a school in Seoul but taught sometimes at the
Chinese embassy (Chung Gook Tessa Gwon). He Had a friend
named Kang Kyun Bang. Kang mostly taught in Pussan and
sometimes Che Jee Do Island his student Lee Byung Chun
was my other Korean mantis teacher.
Lim poon Chang and Kang Kyun Bang escaped from China
during the Mao Tse Tung era. Since I learned all of this
in Korea, I don't know their Chinese names.
In 1990, there were 4 main gung fu associations in
Korea.
1. The Korean Kung Fu Association Inc.
2. The Pa Kua Association in Inchon
3. The korean / Chinese Kung Fu and martial Arts
Association
4. The Tae Han Ship Pal Gae Association.
There are many schools that teach both Tae Kwon Do and
Kung Fu. The Koreans call kung fu ship pal gae (18
styles). This was mainly due to the popularlarity of the
mantis system and the 18 styles contained within.
One of the more famous teachers in Seoul is Lee Duk
Kang.
Here is how it is beileved to have passed down (Korean Version):

The creator of mantis style was Wong Long. One of his
sytudents was Kang Hwa Lung. Kang was an expert in the
many palm strikes of mantis in particular. Kang's
student was Kee Chung Chong who taught Lim Poom Chang
who brought the art to Korea. His most famous student
was Hong Moon Tak. Hong not only mastered mantis but
northern Shaolin as well.

[K.Brazier]

Kang Hwa Lung must be Jiang Hua Long.
When my shifu was there he saw the original copy of Jiang Hua Long's shifu's manuscript.

[K.Brazier]

Oh yes, that 5 punches. Zhang De Kuei called it lien 5 chuei. It seems to be very well known.

For the 8 Step people, that old drill was tacked onto the end of lipi after the 2 sweep kicks.

Actually I was talking about another 5 punches that you didn't recall, but never mind, about 20 forms are called 5 punches of one sort or another.

Carl, I will email.
Thanks for posting all that info.

LCP,
I couldn't follow your meaning.
Just about the solo version, you do have a solo for this?
Then what is the 1st move?

[LawClansman]

MK,
Any info I have about Korean martial arts is from the 70s and before. I haven't been to Korea since 1976 So I don't know much about whats been happening since that time. I do know that contempory wu shu gained some interest in Korea and I have seen some of the teachers here in the states but don't remember the names. If I think of anything, I'll post it.

[tswolfman]

I dont know how correct this is but I learned that set from my Instructor. Who I have found out recently doesn't have very good credentials in Kung Fu. We always called the set "Pe Can Wu Da Sui" . At Least that is how I have always heard it pronounced. I was told that we practice Sip Pal Gi. However the liniage is kind of sketchy after 3 generations the fairthest back I know of is Young P. Choi. Who was my instructor's instructor.

[yu shan]

Kevin

The combined efforts of the book and the video is a great idea. Putting the two together as a package deal makes sense.

Little Four Hands is the first form I teach, nice entry level set... very short though. However the partnered form can be rather intense and you can really knock the snot out each other.

[LingChuanPai]

I was told that we practice Sip Pal Gi. However the liniage is kind of sketchy after 3 generations the fairthest back I know of is Young P. Choi. Who was my instructor's instructor.
tswolfman,
who's your sifu? the style I studied was called Sip Pal Gi when my Sigung was teaching it. He's from Korea. Could you tell me some of the names to your forms?...might be the same. :D
LCP

[tswolfman]

My instructor was Darrel Trudo. I had a difference of opinion with him. We Did Aka Kwan , Quada Kwan ( spelled Querro I think), Kim Gan Kwan, Dan Shu's And Tan Tae's. At least that's How we Pronouced them. Those are all of the forms that I had learned before I seperated from my Instructor.

[Radplaiddude]

Enjoyed all the info on mantis in korea. Im sure some soldier stationed in korea would be interested. I was fortunante to visit seoul in 2003 great city. My Sifu when i was a teenager learned his gung fu in korea while being stationed there. Rad

[Steronius]

i'm very interested in this thread.

I am a student of ITF based TKD and augmented with hapkido and kung fu.

Specifically i have just recently begun studying Chun Moo Kwan Sip Pal Gi.

My instructor's instructor is Master Chun Dai Soung whose short biography is listed on the Mantis Cave website. >link< (http://www.geocities.com/mantiscave/chundai.htm). Master Chun is the founder the Korean Ship Pal Gee Association in Korea and now resides near in New Orleans. His school is curently closed due to Hurricane Katrina damage.

It is very difficult to find information specific to this system and am open to ANY information anyone wishes to provide. I am unsure if this system has other names or other variations. I understand that it is Long Fist, Plum Flower and Bagua as learned and taught by Koreans. But upon researching there are vast variations of these 'systems'.

In this system, the first form is called BaChu, second form is called TongYungCaraguan (or TongLongCarowen as previously posted by another).

I am told there are "12 Tangs" (12 roads). These are very short forms, repeated several times in-line; but when i search for the 12 tangs online, none of them resemble the 2 or 3 i have exprienced.

more input please!?!?!

[yu shan]

Steronius

Try sending K. Brazier a pm about your questions, he could possibly have information.

[EarthDragon]

Kevin B. echoing Roberts post...... Long over due, and anxious to get a copy vid included.
Are you back in the US yet? I thought you would be home for X -mas. Please let us know.

[SBonzak]

I know a version of kai lu chuan through my study with my sifu, Park Bok Nam. I am not too sure of his mantis lineage, as I have never asked him about it. What did you want to know about that form?

-Steve

[Steronius]

SBonzak and MasterKiller,

I am most interested in this information.

I am interested in your forms can you post info on them? movements, diagrams, video?

SBonzak, if your Sifu is Master Park Bok Nam, please i am very interested in your forms.

[lamakwoklee]

Is this book now available? Where can it be got? How much is it?

[MasterKiller]

Is this form similar/the same as the Korean two-man set called "8-step sparring"?

1. front toe kick
2. step forward punch right
3. step back to cat stance and block high
4. forearm block low
5. step back to horse block knee with hammer fist
6. hook the punch
7. step in forearm strike
8. reverse punch

When Person A does move 1, Person B does move 5, and progress numerically from there.

:confused:

[Oso]

similar in intent but some different moves


for the two person:

A - Step in w/ left foot and left head punch
B - left hand intercepts and gou lou cai as you flank step with left foot and step around to round punch the back of their head
A - hops back and dissolves hand out the gou lou cai and ducks under round punch and chops back to B's waist w/ left hand
B - blocks down with right hand to block waist chop and turns to throw left reverse punch while lunging fwd in a right lead
A - cross steps back w/ left to finish in an right empty (cat) stance and right inside block
B - Toe kick w/ left foot, advancing after the kick
A - Cross steps back w/ right foot to finish in horse w/ left hand blocking kick

B- throws left head punch
A - left hand intercepts and gou lou cai as you flank step with left foot and step around to round punch the back of their head

and so on. I think yu shan and his guys and gals do a passing move to switch from left side to right side but I might be mistaken. We're still mostly training left side only.

[yu shan]

Oso

We do this the same as you. Nice little entro-set huh. You can really get going on it, basic yes but you can hit each other pretty good.

[Oso]

did I see your folks doing a pass like we do between 1st and 2nd roads of Beng Bu to turn it around for right side? or am I imagining things again?

gonna give you a call this evening. are you still off on monday evenings?

[mantid1]

Sifu Hui (mantis 108) gave me permission to post this clip.

We were dicussing apps in forms and he gave me this example. You can keep the app tradtional as in the form or alter it for different scenerios.

He can give a little more insight into it if he likes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG2dB14z1L0

[mantis108]

Thank you very much for posting the clip. We just pretty much just hung up on the phone and you have delivered as requested. You Da Man, my friend. Also you gave a pretty good synopsis of the clip.

The clip is my rendition of the little Four Hands applications. The right Quan Chui (round house) is followed by You Cai Zuo Ge Zhou (right pluck left Knocking Elbow) which doesn't happen in the form but can serve as a change. This move is still pretty traditional approach of Mantis. The arm bar takedown is a common Chin Na and Ju Jitsu move which doesn't necessarily have to follow the mantis move. It could be done right after the Quan Chui that the opponent dodged. As seen in the clip there is always a counter to a counter. You have a choice of whether you want to take it there or not. Of course, there will always be more ways to stop (ie apply direct pressure on the elbow joint, elbow to the head, etc...) the opponent to use leg hook to get base and save the arm from the arm bar and/or wrist lock. It is obvisous that I am not trying to maim my demo partner here. This is just to give an idea that traditional mantis don't have to take a backseat to modern paradigm that include ground grappling if you so chose to incorporate that in your training.

I hope to see others sharing there apps as well.

Warm regards

Robert (Mantis108)

[Oso]

LOL

we worked this move tonight san shou style w/ boxing gloves and head gear.

we didn't make it as intricate.

I don't have the ability to make a clip right now but will try to soon instead of typing it out.

[mantis108]

Glad to hear that you incorporate mantis approach into your San Shou training as well.

That's the thing. Some of the Chin Na, throws and takedowns are pretty much generic in TCMA or any other MA for that matter. How many ways can one bent an arm or unbalance the opponent? Some of them can be practiced with gloves on. I think that this easy to manage entry level form of Mantis is great for drilling close quartered combat stuff (ie Chin Na). As for the intricacy, well that what seperates the styles. Some styles are more direct and somore are more intricate. It's a matter of personal choice and preference. :)

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Oso]

that lack of intricasy was due to the gloves...not a criticism. However, KISS is always relevant.

I liked your interpretation of the armbar takedown.

I have more of a general question for you. Do you talk about size differential in regards to fighting tactics? I use a "440 Rule": If your opponent is >=4" Taller or >=40# heavier than you need to be very careful in what strategy you use to fight them. A smaller person would want to NOT try to grapple of chin na with a bigger person.


my favorite throw/takedown from that entry is:

after the left intercept and pluck and the right step in w/ hook punch
I will kick the near leg forward as I bring an elbow back into the head and continue pressing back through the head to complete the throw.

we started last night with just the intercept/pluck with the flank step and following up with the right step & hook punch.

then, I had Person A (the initiating left punch) start throwing a right punch follow up. we worked up in speed to about 75% or so with gloves and head gear.

most people were getting punched at first until I had them smooth out the flank step to speed movement up.


my second favorite is to:

Intercept/Pluck/Flank
Right following step and hook punch

THEN

let the hook punch follow through and snake under their left arm and around to punch back over that shoulder. you're not hitting anything but keeping the idea of hte punch makes the movement snap better. at the execution of the punch, hit a hard stance change from the horse to to a left lead hill climbing for the throw. Don't forget to disengage as there is a pretty simple reversal at that point.

as always, we tend to assume that our punch has rendered them stunned enough to follow up with these types of throws...which begs the question: If they are so stunned, why don't we just hit them again????

;)

:)

[mantis108]

that lack of intricasy was due to the gloves...not a criticism. However, KISS is always relevant.

I hear you and thanks for the clarification. :)


I liked your interpretation of the armbar takedown.

Glad you like it. :)


I have more of a general question for you. Do you talk about size differential in regards to fighting tactics? I use a "440 Rule": If your opponent is >=4" Taller or >=40# heavier than you need to be very careful in what strategy you use to fight them. A smaller person would want to NOT try to grapple of chin na with a bigger person.

your 440 rule is not a bad idea IMHO. I do talk about size differential although I don't use that as a golden rule of "to grapple or not to grapple". To me over 40-50 lbs differential is where skill and conditioning play a more important role for the smaller physique individual. I rather let skill level and competency be the guide. Personally, I think it's more dangerous to "box" a skilled boxer who's 50 lbs over you and out reach you even just by couple of inches. I let students to experience grappling and Chin Na as soon as day one. I believe that Chin Na would be great if a good understanding of the clinch and ground phase is understood thoroughly. IMHO if you realize the guy out reach you, it would be better to use good cover, defang if possible, dodge in, clinch and takedown. I don't see Chin Na/clinch/grappling as power base skill rather it's timing that is the key. If we can flatten a heavy person out and pin him while we are mobile, he is far less dangerous than he's on his feet using leverage punching and keep smashing our head. I have seen guys who are used to close quartered tactics try to rush the opponent while being out reached. The result are mostly horrible for those guys. They would be knocked about silly. It is better to draw the tall guy in rather than rush in after him. So...


my favorite throw/takedown from that entry is:

after the left intercept and pluck and the right step in w/ hook punch
I will kick the near leg forward as I bring an elbow back into the head and continue pressing back through the head to complete the throw.

we started last night with just the intercept/pluck with the flank step and following up with the right step & hook punch.

then, I had Person A (the initiating left punch) start throwing a right punch follow up. we worked up in speed to about 75% or so with gloves and head gear.

most people were getting punched at first until I had them smooth out the flank step to speed movement up.


my second favorite is to:

Intercept/Pluck/Flank
Right following step and hook punch

THEN

let the hook punch follow through and snake under their left arm and around to punch back over that shoulder. you're not hitting anything but keeping the idea of hte punch makes the movement snap better. at the execution of the punch, hit a hard stance change from the horse to to a left lead hill climbing for the throw. Don't forget to disengage as there is a pretty simple reversal at that point.

Thanks for that. These are great to work with for sure. I also let student to wear head gear (hockey helmet) and grappling gloves to practice what I have outlined in the clip. This way they can practice aliveness and pressure test the move. They usuallly have lots of fun with it.


as always, we tend to assume that our punch has rendered them stunned enough to follow up with these types of throws...which begs the question: If they are so stunned, why don't we just hit them again????

Well, that's where discipline comes in, my friend. If your fighter follows the plan that you assigned for him to carry out exactly as told rather than going at it on the fly, you know you have a disciplined fighter. One of those worth ten of those that have a mind of their own if you ask me. ;-) So...

Warm regards

Mantis108

[18elders]

I agree with Oso, there comes a point in the size difference when i don't think it is a good idea. Chin na is a bit harder to pull of in reality than in the class with your kung fu brothers. it's different when you have a ****ed of guy that ways 80 pounds more than you do trying to rip your head off.
I for one am not going to grapple or try chin na on Oso, he would just lift me up and throw me like it was nothing.

[Oso]

size matters.

the bigger they are, the harder it will be to get a reaction to both striking and chin na/grappling.

I recently did a self defense seminar for some girl scouts. we spent 60 minutes on mental stuff (situational awareness and such) and just 60 minutes or so on simple evasion and release skills with only two types of striking (palm to face and foot to knee) while constantly reiterating the verbal information. One girl asked about 'what if it's a really big guy that grabs you?' I told her that most likely she would not be able to get away...and that gave me a great segue back into 'Don't be there'.

I was very worried that my no BS approach would not go over well with the troop leader but I did it for free and she actually very much appreciated the emphasis that there may be situations that you CAN NOT get out of so the best defense is to not be there in the first place.

skill can offset size advantage but not as much as some people tend to think it will.


Robert,

more to say in detail but am having a very busy day....hell, it's going to be a busy summer.

but, to try to bring it back in to topic...In mantis, I have seen a lot of too intricate applications that are only going to serve to get you into big trouble. One of the things I like about what I have seen from Master Shi, Shifu's Kevin and John is that the applications are simpler and fairly straight forward.


Funny Story: I had some new folks in class last night and was working with them on basic kicks and was coaching them on the position of the lead arm while kicking. As in, the need to cover head and ribs...so, keep the elbow close and the forarm up but not too high or the ribs will be open. This one guy was like "oh, yeah, someone could strike you in the arm pit and that's like a death point"

:rolleyes:

I looked at him for a second to see if he was really serious and he was. I was like, well, maybe but you should probably be more concerned about a broken rib than a 'death strike' to the armpit.

[mantis108]

Thanks for the input, my friends. I am a fan of Ponglai so any insight is appreciated. To me I tend not to let size bother me. I am after all a small physique person. ;) So I look at ways to best optimize my own attributes. I would have to say that CCK TCPM have help tremendously in that regard.

I generally look at self defense and fighting as somewhat of seperate issues. Self defense is more of a survival and preservation exercise; while fighting (to me) is more of a ritual rite thing. In self defense, there is not fuss and no mess about. Fighting is an expression of self in a combative form IMHO. It is through this choice of ritual rite that the old self dies and reborn hopefully into a new self that grant us knowledge, insights and wisdom of truth and be one with the truth. To me it's not about winning a fight against a conscenting opponent but to work with what is available to me. No strategy, tactic and technique will work all the time. Non of those would work twice either. I work with bigger guys all the time. Some of them have specifically stated that they rather learn from a small physique person because there are bigger and stronger guys out there. So I show them my "small man mantis with a touch of BJJ." ;) :D

Just some thoughts to share.

Warm regards

Robert (Mantis108)

[mantid1]

It seems like the disatvantage for a small guy would be the same whether you are grappling or punching and kicking. I think the greater disatvantage will be in the area that the little guy does not train or is not good at.

If a little guy is a very good grappler but is 4 inches shorter and 40 pounds lighter but the big guy knows nothing about the grappling arts it may even up the playing field for the little guy.

I hope my students are open to being well rounded focusing on both aspects, punching and kicking with the grappling.....just in case.

[Oso]

Thanks for the input, my friends. I am a fan of Ponglai so any insight is appreciated.

FTR, my input on general fighting is more ME than a Pong Lai opinion...I'm still trying to figure it out...

To me I tend not to let size bother me. I am after all a small physique person. ;) So I look at ways to best optimize my own attributes. I would have to say that CCK TCPM have help tremendously in that regard.

I generally look at self defense and fighting as somewhat of seperate issues.

they are as self defense really has nothing to do with fighting as self defense is everything you need to do to avoid fighting.

Self defense is more of a survival and preservation exercise; while fighting (to me) is more of a ritual rite thing.

At first I was like 'what?' but, I do get and agree with the ritual/rite thing. For me, sparring (fighting) is always a test for me. It's never been about beating someone else down but what I could do with my body.

In self defense, there is not fuss and no mess about. Fighting is an expression of self in a combative form IMHO.

But, I don't know as I'd go that far. Maybe it's semantics but the connotation of fighting means (to me) that there is some sort of aggressive emotion on one side or the other and that dictates the need to not 'fuss and muss' about. Nothing really spiritual to me about needing to do unto them before I get done unto.

The type of sparring I like to do against a good friend who is of equal or better ability who you can trust to push you but not maim you is where I get sorta spiritual about it. But, only twice have I had someone like that. My first teacher and a good buddy of mine a decade or so later.

It is through this choice of ritual rite that the old self dies and reborn hopefully into a new self that grant us knowledge, insights and wisdom of truth and be one with the truth. To me it's not about winning a fight against a conscenting opponent but to work with what is available to me. No strategy, tactic and technique will work all the time. Non of those would work twice either. I work with bigger guys all the time.



Some of them have specifically stated that they rather learn from a small physique person because there are bigger and stronger guys out there.

I don't understand what you are saying here.



So I show them my "small man mantis with a touch of BJJ." ;) :D

Just some thoughts to share.

Warm regards

Robert (Mantis108)





It seems like the disatvantage for a small guy would be the same whether you are grappling or punching and kicking.

of course.

I think the greater disatvantage will be in the area that the little guy does not train or is not good at.

sure.

If a little guy is a very good grappler but is 4 inches shorter and 40 pounds lighter but the big guy knows nothing about the grappling arts it may even up the playing field for the little guy.

Indeed. Skill is always a factor...but I think the curve of skill over strength is not even...as in, it takes more skill to offset a greater difference in strength.

I hope my students are open to being well rounded focusing on both aspects, punching and kicking with the grappling.....just in case.

right, but they also need to at least get a good body to weight strength ratio.

oh...mass and strength are two different things.

[mantis108]

Hi Matt,

<<<It is through this choice of ritual rite that the old self dies and reborn hopefully into a new self that grant us knowledge, insights and wisdom of truth and be one with the truth. To me it's not about winning a fight against a conscenting opponent but to work with what is available to me. No strategy, tactic and technique will work all the time. Non of those would work twice either. I work with bigger guys all the time.

Some of them have specifically stated that they rather learn from a small physique person because there are bigger and stronger guys out there.>>>

This is pretty much my philosophy and teaching approach. Just couple of points for now....

1) I don't mean fighting in the sense of non sensible violence. I like pressure testing under a set of established rules. That's how I look at fighting. So on the first day that the people come to me, I will explain my position and that they must understand that I don't claim anything other than I help them to find what works or not work for them through studying unarmed combative form which is Mantis. While I like to test myself and those who I work with through full contact sparring, I do want us all go back to our families and careers as sound mind in sound body people.

2) If we only to teach people to win at all times, then we might not be able to let them fully capitalize on what the style has to offer. If we want to teach someone to win a fight, it is as easy as tell him to do MMA or any other martial sports IMHO. Mantis IMHO is no doubt intricate. The lineage that I am in can be solidly traced back to mid 1700s at least. Things get developed, accumulated and evolved through out that time. I don't want to foresake anything that was taught to me just because I want to keep me and my guys winning. My take is that if we don't pay the due in losing we don't get the dividen in winning. It is invest in the lost so to speak. So during practice which often would be sparring as well, we will get a chance to use stuff that may or may not work well for us. That's when we find out despite the risk of losing.

Warm regards

Robert

[Oso]

Hi Robert,

I get and agree with both your points.

what I didn't get specifically was this statement:


Some of them have specifically stated that they rather learn from a small physique person because there are bigger and stronger guys out there

[mantis108]

Oh that part. lol...

I have guys that are ranging from 140 - 240 lbs from 5'7" to 6' something. I am around 120 Lbs and 5'5". Believe it or not 180-240 range is not that big or strong as compare to some guys on the street (don't know if that's the Canadian water or what). ;) So some of them would like to know what a smaller person could do facing a bigger guy just in case.

Warm regards

Robert

[Oso]

ok, got it now.

thanks.

[lamakwoklee]

Hello. Can some one tell me the publishing details of all these great Pong Lai publications? I have no idea of how to obtain any books by the illustrious Kevin Brazier.

[lamakwoklee]

The post above pertains not only to Mr. Brazier's Little Four Hand's book, but to all Pong Lai material. I've only ever descovered any of it on ebay. Is there a direct route to finding anything, or is it a huge secret?;)

[18elders]

contact shrfu Mike at: 813-719-9892 and he will tell you what is available and what is coming in the future.

[TaiChiStorm]

Hi
it's been a long time that I wrote to this forum !! :)
My shifu is from Korea, (Choi Chae Gyun). He is from the Lin Ping Yang Lineage. (I don't know if Lin Pin Zhang is the same person)
The partner excercise shown on the book looks pretty similar to some stuff we do. (we call these excercises "De pan cha" (korean). I am going to upload some of these on youtube soon.
Anyway, I am pretty interested in the "Korea Tanglang connection" A few years ago, my shifu used to send his students to korea for training, but he hasn't done it again. He says the school he belonged to was closed, and the students are currently just practicing for themselfes. Does anybody of you know about schools in Korea which still exist ? Has anybody been there?
I am happy to be back on the board again !!
Greets
TCS