Why Is It Working?

[couch]

After 8-9 years of Kenpo Karate with fall-out techniques and predetermined attack-defense senarios...cookie cutter senarios...and where it all breaks down and doesn't work in sparring situations...

After 1.5 years of another martial art with similar conditioning...

What is it with Wing Chun that is now enabling me to defend myself? I'm really curious? Is it the Chess-like game of Chi Sao? Is it the drills that we do where your opponent stands 12 inches from your face and throws a random attack? Is it the system in it's entirety?

I'm just really intrigued with what is going on in my head. After 11 years of other martial arts, I never really had gained confidence in myself and my abilities. I was never able to stop as many hits in a random environment as now, and it really blows my mind. Friends and acquaintances can no longer get that "fun" shot in. My Wing Chun is always on.

Maybe others out there have had the same experience or something similar. Please share and give your opinion as to what you believe is the cause of your results!

Sincerely,
Kenton Sefcik

[Fajing]

I feel ya friend! It is a big switch from Karate. I too, used to train in two styles of Karate, but could not apply either in real situations. I discovered that it was not practical for me, personally. To block a massive opponents strike, head on, just wasn't working, nor realistic for me. Wing chun is a different world. We don't meet force with force. That is a big change coming from arts such as Karate and Tae Kwon Do. Little is more. Spinning hook kicks to the head seem ridiculous now. :p So continue on your Wing Chun path. I think you will continue to learn, develope and enjoy. :D

[lawrenceofidaho]

Hi Kenton,

IME, pressure and fighting distance has a lot to do with wing chun's success in certain situations. In light-to-medium sparring between a wing chun man and a martial artist of another traditional art, there is an advantage of establishing our ideal range, and then chaining a non-stop flow of attacks together the way that we do that makes it very difficult for many traditional stylists to handle. They will often get so busy defending that they have little time to think about how they will counter.

-But what makes wing chun successful in those scenarios (the strategy of using aggressive pressure to put the fight into a preferred range and keep it there while one launches all kinds of attacks), was also used successfully by many grapplers in the early UFCs.

The parallel seems pretty straightforward when I look at it like this:

wing chun vs tae kwon do / kenpo / shaolin / etc. wing chun's strategy is:
1) Close the gap to preferred range
2) Maintain pressure and control so opponent does not escape back to longer range.
3) Launch rapid attacks that opponent is not as comfortable dealing with as they are at their preferred range.

grappling vs wing chun / tae kwon do / kenpo / etc. grappling's strategy is:
1) Close the gap to preferred range
2) Maintain pressure and control so opponent does not escape back to longer range.
3) Launch rapid attacks that opponent is not as comfortable dealing with as they are at their preferred range.

The reason I qualified the wing chun success with this strategy in the first paragraph (light to medium sparring, and with traditional asian martial arts), is that I do not feel it is nearly as effective against full contact fighters such as boxers and MT stylists, particularly when you are sparring medium to hard....... They will shell-up or move, defend, and let you expend a good deal of energy, not minding if they take a some glancing, or even medium-powered blows (and they usually much harder to hit than TMA stylists too, by the way). -Then, when they see an opening, they will pick their shot, and counter explosively....... I think the key against these kinds of fighters is to know how to be aggressive, but in a controlled and disclipline way (or as Ernie says; lining up the target and firing instead of just spraying bullets all over the place). Conditioning is also invaluable, because these guys will not be easily overwhelmed and defeated the way a typical McDojo brown belt / black belt would be. It's (almost always) going to take a lot more than a single burst of attacks.......

-Lawrence

[Hendrik]

IMHHO,

Basically, it is not that one doesnt have confident. It is that the Intuitive of one tells one something is missing.

And lots of time we ignore the message and resolve to changing school or style's type of quick fix. which doesnt really do much.

The missing might be one doesnt have adequate inner Coordinate or center. or something physical need to be work out.

IE one can get scared off or got the hot button push.....etc
one's body is not strong enought or integrated enough to be able to sustain the in coming dis-ruption being it a force related or a speed related..

Things can go on and on and on. But, only one can find out about oneself since everyone is different

As I post in other post, is fear in front or behind our eyes? how stratergy is in the realm of intuitive behind our eyes.

Lots to find out about ourself. and oftern it is not the style but ourself. We attract the stlye. When we want power training, we might even go for weight lifting... When we want stratergy training we might take out more philosophical art....

So, it is a journney within a self discorvery. IMHHHO.

Good luck for your journey.

[Gangsterfist]

I myself was a green belt in ryukyu karate in my early teens. I trained under the taika oyata lineage. Master Oyata was very skilled, and he was okinawan champion even. I love the ideas in karate, to put everything you have into one strike, it has its own grace to it. Its poetic in a way.

Then comes wing chun, which is a radical idea for any person with experience in other martial arts. We like to get close, we like to crowd the space similiar to a grappler but we like to strike. Its a radical idea and goes against a lot of other systems. Even though wing chun differs greatly (after doing a bit of traveling I have witnessed this first hand, there are big differences in other lineages wing chun, but I am just pointing out its different, NOT BETTER!) the core is based of simply, refined, straight forward motions and energies.

Now....

I also do six elbows kung fu and taiji, and I think they help my wing chun develope even further. I take what I know from those systems and I apply it with wing chun concepts. I also dabble in jiujitsu when I find someone who I can work out with.

To each his own, I have seen and heard of some crazy good choy li fut guys, and I have heard stories about awesome hung gar practitioners. So, if the shoe fits wear it, and if wing chun fits you then it will fit you like a glove. Just remember you have control over it, it does not control you.

[RedJunkRebel]

Why does it work? In my opinion because its principles can be scientifically proven. If we put them to use correctly against most other fighters, they will win.

Most other arts don't have that. Most styles don't rely on practical principles of fighting. They focus on acrobatic, gymnastic, showy or power moves. They make it about a sport or about a show.

[Gangsterfist]

Why does it work? In my opinion because its principles can be scientifically proven. If we put them to use correctly against most other fighters, they will win.

Most other arts don't have that. Most styles don't rely on practical principles of fighting. They focus on acrobatic, gymnastic, showy or power moves. They make it about a sport or about a show.


Just to play devil's advocate here, a lot of those scientific theories can be tossed out the window. I know plenty of non wing chun people who are great martial artists, and some of them I would put my money on over a wing chunner.

[KPM]

Its the "flow" man! The FLOW! Nothing prearranged. No "tit for tat." Just flow! :)

Keith

[sihing]

Just to play devil's advocate here, a lot of those scientific theories can be tossed out the window. I know plenty of non wing chun people who are great martial artists, and some of them I would put my money on over a wing chunner.

There will always be people in other MA systems that are great/effective fighters, because they love their choosen art and work it well. If they were WC players would they be more effective? Yes IMO. Not all people are fighters and do not look at WC that way.

James

[Ernie]

Hi Kenton,

IME, pressure and fighting distance has a lot to do with wing chun's success in certain situations. In light-to-medium sparring
-Lawrence

Nice post Lawrence ! [ and not because you mentioned me hahaha]

but because you did what it is that makes [functional wing Chun ] effective , you used you mind , you thought about it based on experience !

functional wing Chun [ once you get beyond techniques and shapes all the superficial marketing junk the pollutes most of the stuff out there ]

once you get past being a robot trapped by a stick figure doctrine , you learn to THINK progressively and adaptively based on a goal and a some what consistent group of supporting strategies

your able to think and flow , because your training has given your body automatic responses , economical habits [ if you are still in ''trapped by wing Chun stage'' you can not do this , your stuck in preset shapes and techniques , a robot that acts like a man ]

so the key is to develop NATURAL REACTION not shape , form or technique .

Shape form and technique will as you put only work '' up to a point '' and them crumble , the thing is many never get to that point there training doesn't take them there , but life will if you dare to adventure .

so if you have Functional wing Chun that can think and flow based on natural reaction , it will kick in no matter what lead , or what stance or sitting ,walking , rolling on the floor , what ever

but if all you have is shape , technique and form . well then you are limited and it will only take you so far

again very nice post L . got me to creep out of my cave

[Fajing]

you learn to THINK progressively and adaptively based on a goal and a some what consistent group of supporting strategies

your able to think and flow , because your training has given your body automatic responses , economical habits [ if you are still in ''trapped by wing Chun stage'' you can not do this , your stuck in preset shapes and techniques , a robot that acts like a man ]

so the key is to develop NATURAL REACTION not shape , form or technique .


Nicely said!
:D

[sihing]

Nice post Lawrence ! [ and not because you mentioned me hahaha]

but because you did what it is that makes [functional wing Chun ] effective , you used you mind , you thought about it based on experience !

functional wing Chun [ once you get beyond techniques and shapes all the superficial marketing junk the pollutes most of the stuff out there ]

once you get past being a robot trapped by a stick figure doctrine , you learn to THINK progressively and adaptively based on a goal and a some what consistent group of supporting strategies

your able to think and flow , because your training has given your body automatic responses , economical habits [ if you are still in ''trapped by wing Chun stage'' you can not do this , your stuck in preset shapes and techniques , a robot that acts like a man ]

so the key is to develop NATURAL REACTION not shape , form or technique .

Shape form and technique will as you put only work '' up to a point '' and them crumble , the thing is many never get to that point there training doesn't take them there , but life will if you dare to adventure .

so if you have Functional wing Chun that can think and flow based on natural reaction , it will kick in no matter what lead , or what stance or sitting ,walking , rolling on the floor , what ever

but if all you have is shape , technique and form . well then you are limited and it will only take you so far

again very nice post L . got me to creep out of my cave

I agree also, so in other words the individual has to make it work for themselves, the shape becomes natural and adjusted to one's own self and body. This is the case with any endeavor in life, not just application of MA techniques. You can learn the theoretical application of Martial Technique but applying it in an alive situation is always different, that's why the intensity and randomness has to be increased with the student’s abilities (the reason for testing and levels). But on forums like this, theoretical analysis is all we have since most of the time we are not in each others presence, which is why everything here is theoretical.

Why does stuff work now, for my self. I remember the first inkling of such a thing, long ago, it was the constant thinking, practicing and most importantly living the art daily that made such things happen, IMO. How does one maintain these abilities? Same approach, with constant learning, development and refinement as your wisdom with "your" own art progresses throughout your life. The WC you are learning does become individualized and your own eventually. The WC I possess is the same as my Sifu's or Sihing's but not the same at the sametime, because as individuals we are not built the same, nor do we think the same, perceive the same way or perform it when needed the same, so it is different, but based on concepts passed on to us by other's that have been there before us.


James

[lawrenceofidaho]

The WC I possess is the same as my Sifu's or Sihing's but not the same at the sametime, because as individuals we are not built the same, nor do we think the same, perceive the same way or perform it when needed the same, so it is different, but based on concepts passed on to us by other's that have been there before us.
What if Sifu & Sihing only fought scrubs and their concepts were flawed?

What if Sifu & Sihing had gained some real knowledge, but were afraid of doing what it took to maintain it / improve upon it, or didn't want to drive off potential students, and so watered things down?

(James, I'm not referring to your Sifu & Sihing. -Just making a general statement that all kung fu practicioners ought to consider.)

-Lawrence

[anerlich]

Why does it work? In my opinion because its principles can be scientifically proven.

Actually, "scientific proof" involves a lot more than just having nice principles and doing math. REAL science verifies its "theories" and "principles" with experimentation.

Saying WC has principles and theories is one thing. "Proof" is still requires empirical evidence, e.g. documented evidence of experiemental verification, viz. the winning of fights. Though the samples are too small to have statistical value, in the UFC it could be argued that experiments have proved WC *doesn't* work.


If we put them to use correctly against most other fighters, they will win.

That statement is about as scientifically valid as "90% of fights end up on the ground", and as before is not supported by experimental results.


Most other arts don't have that. Most styles don't rely on practical principles of fighting. They focus on acrobatic, gymnastic, showy or power moves. They make it about a sport or about a show.

Define "most" and "practical". BTW, that statement is a generalisation, arguably straw man, arguably false, and definitely unscientific.

[sihing]

Ya, but every time someone on here posts "Proof" & "Evidence", the nay sayers start another thread in the hopes that their supporters and others will follow them to cover up the success story. It's been reported many times of people's stories of WC success in real combat and in competitions only to be ignored or forgotten, so to say that ONLY the UFC counts as a testing ground is ridiculous. Does this mean all of us have to compete in the UFC now to prove ourselves as combat effective?? I don't think so, and so do many others.

To me UFC=RULES & INDIVIDUALITY, and does not reflect a particularly MA effectiveness. Do each and every MMA fighter in the UFC use the exact same system, or they all doing different things to tweek their own strengths in combat sports. Plus in the end UFC is still a sport, with rules and referee's. The thing that impresses me about these MMA athletes (and that is what they are) are their work ethic, they work hard and consistently and that they have the guts to get into the octagon to prove it, not their particular brand of Martial Art. Most every time I watch a UFC fight I see things they can be doing more efficiently and/or effectively.

James

[anerlich]

Look, I was pointing out the flaws in the method of "argument" of the other poster. I gave a ridiculous example on purpose to illustrate this.

My own academy has its share of WC success stories.


Most every time I watch a UFC fight I see things they can be doing more efficiently and/or effectively.

LOL. you and every beer drinking couch potato and armchair quarterback who never trained. Big deal. No doubt Royce, Shamrock, et al could look at the performance of anyone on this forum including you and your instructor and say exactly the same thing, with equal validity.

[couch]

What I'm referring to is a new-found confidence in what I am training. For example: for the first time, I'm not taken by surprise attacks from friends and aquaintances and other people that want to test you.

Granted, I haven't been in a fight outside of the kwoon, but the key thing that I'm feeling different about is confidence in my ability. After reading what some have posted, I would be in agreement about the ability to 'flow' or 'not be a robot of the system.'

It's also that nonpre-programmed pressure training that helps. *Random* attacks. I mean random with stars because real random is someone you don't know with a broader range of attacks. But, even in my early stage of training, the random punches and kicks from close/far range have seriously helped.

Back in my training days of old, everything was layed out in full:

Kenton, you're going to do a downward foot block, step in, punch. Don't worry, your attacker will only be throwing one punch to your abdomen and he'll pose for you so that all your counterattacks will make contact....etc.

...sidenote: I watched a Kung-Fu demo tape that I got from martialartsmart.com. This is not to discredit what they sell...I am the consumer that bought the tape...anywho - there were demonstrations of fancy kung-fu styles where it seemed like the person in the centre was taking on about 8 people who didn't know anything about fighting. (and won) Some attackers actually just stood around and waited to be hit! I see so much bad in the kung-fu world. No wonder we get a bad rap about not being about to perform real-world self-defense. No one takes us seriously.

It's really one thing to practise a technique in a form...then to apply it in the Chi Sao...and then to apply it in a *random* setting.

Thanks for sharing your opinions...

Sincerely,
Kenton Sefcik

[SoftWT]

Just to play devil's advocate here, a lot of those scientific theories can be tossed out the window. I know plenty of non wing chun people who are great martial artists, and some of them I would put my money on over a wing chunner.


:rolleyes: You would loose...so would your "great martial artist". WT is scientific application, NOT "theories".

[Liddel]

I feel VT has a very good apllication of timing which in fighting is invaluable.

Im all too sick of seeing lots of styles and VT included practitioners using slow tempo timing.
You punch me ill punch you, were taking turns....sort of thing.

We are taught to defend and attack at almost the same time. With economic actions we are supposed to gain a split second here and a split second there which if used effectivly can be a huge advantage...you land three times but only recieve one...?

I feel for myself its from the very basics. In Chi Sao we learn that when someone attacks we feel, react, and retaliate. Then this trickles down into almost every aspect of our style. when someone kicks me i block and kick back at the same time not one after the other....

Perhaps this is one aspect that makes you more confident or able to deal with sparring better now ?

Dont get me wrong i know lots of styles have these ideas and use them but IMHO i think VT has a good system to train students how to harness this strategy and put it into practice. Thats my experience. :)

[lawrenceofidaho]

:rolleyes: You would loose...so would your "great martial artist". WT is scientific application, NOT "theories".
Kitten,

you've only studied WT for 2 months, and nothing else, right?

WT is a good art, but there is a whole other world out there.......

Until you see (with your own eyes) your sifu and sihings toying with good; boxers, Muay Thai fighters, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu stylists, and wrestlers, you shouldn't be so quick to believe that WT belongs on a special pedastel.

WT is merely theory, until an individual practicioner can actually apply it against a; skilled, resisting, opponent and makes it their own.

-Ask your sifu if he's ever sparred against the any of the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu guys in Billings, or maybe some of the mixed martial arts guys in your town........

Keep your mind open and don't let yourself be brainwashed by anyone, -no matter what their title (grandmaster, sifu, whatever.....) Let your own judgement have the final say, but only after you give an issue deep and honest consideration. Just repeating what someone else has said is intellectual laziness. -Don't resign yourself to that.......

-Lawrence

[sihing]

The thing with advice like what Lawrence is telling SoftWT (not that Lawrence doesn’t mean well, as I believe he does), is that right off the bat you are telling the new student to not TRUST his instructor. Let me play devil's advocate as well and ask, WHY SHOULD ANYONE TRUST SOMEONE ON THE INTERNET OVER SOMEONE THEY ARE LEARNING FROM OR KNOW IN PERSON. I know what the dilemma is here, who can one trust nowadays? The answer to this question is simple, especially in the martial arts. Look at your instructors senior students or instructors underneath him, and if they show quality (and quality can be seen in a Martial Arts Instructor, without them having to go out and fight every other Martial Artist in the city to prove it..) then that Instructor is the real thing. The basic premise here is that the instructor, up to a point, has duplicated quality Martial Arts skills in another person. Plus, how does one trust their own instincts or judgements to make proper decisions regarding what is right or wrong, effective or uneffective, etc.. when you are a beginner at Martial Arts. Sooner or later you are going to have to trust someone. If after a time you are not convinced that you are learning something usefull and effective then quit, if the reverse is true then continue on with your training. Simple.

There's nothing wrong either with what Lawrence said also, testing your skills against others of different Martial Arts experience. Problem here is that usually there are RULES, that inhibit full usage of your skills against one another, therefore the holding back factor may play a role in finding out exactly how good you and your Martial Art is against other fighters. This is where the various theories and concepts that underlay every Martial Art have to be analyzed and at some point compared to one another. Movement is movement gentlemen, and if one way of movement can be proven to be more effective than another, then why would you assume it will not work, and the less effective one would? For example, a basic strategy we teach from our WC is when your opponent begins to attack you in any sort of manner, just before he is in range to hit you, step to the side, outside of his lead foot (while maintaining a good guard to defend round/hooks and balance in stance), this way you are avoiding the force of your opponent, regardless if it is a punch, kick or shoot attempt, you are evading his initial attack. At the same moment attack him simultaneously with whatever weapon you choose. This will at the least temporarily slow them down and allow you a safer position in comparison to your opponents weapons, or In a best case scenario, you will have optimum positional advantage as compared to what your opponent has on you, your two primary weapons(arms) are going to be used against your opponent’s one arm. Although this position is a temporary one (maybe a half second positional advantage), you can with WC attack him minimally 3x in that time frame, maybe more if you are fast enough. This will do something to slow down your attacker and make your chances of success in this confrontation higher.
Now do most MA teach this tactic? Well they may try to teach it, but since most do not use the same stances or prescribe to the same methods of movement as some of us do in the WC system, they are simply not able to use the same tactics because their system does not allow them to do so, their delivery system is not set up that way.

My advice to SoftWT is to have faith in what you are learning, work hard at it and ask allot of questions. Also, be aware of what other MA teach, understand them and what they do, so that if you were to ever met a practitioner in combat from one of these arts, you will be able to recognize their style and not be surprised by their methods. Remember that anyone of high quality skill level in any MA is dangerous, including WC practitioners, so believe in it and it will serve you well.


James

[SoftWT]

:rolleyes: I see you rushed right over to my profile.



Kitten,

you've only studied WT for 2 months, and nothing else, right?




I've studied Tai Kwon Do and boxing too. Which doesn't amount to much. I spend more time studying and practicing WT now than I spend at work. And will continue to do so. I wish I could do it full-time, I love WT.

WT is a good art, but there is a whole other world out there.......

I wasn't born in a cabbage patch. I realize the "whole other world" out there, and the world I am from doesn't play by the rules. So why shoud I in defending myself?

Until you see (with your own eyes) your sifu and sihings toying with good; boxers, Muay Thai fighters, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu stylists, and wrestlers, you shouldn't be so quick to believe that WT belongs on a special pedastel.


My sifu doesn't "toy"around, lmao. :p

My sifu's reputation speaks for itself, and his sifu [Leung Ting] before him, and his sifu [Yip Man] before him, and so on and so forth.

WT is merely theory, until an individual practicioner can actually apply it against a; skilled, resisting, opponent and makes it their own.

Well of COURSE.

You are just playing words games now. Only an idiot thinks all he needs to know is forms without practice of application. Either way, each move in WT is based on sound science.

And WT is more than a "good art". Its techniques are simply good Kung Fu.

You need to do your homework about the history and PURPOSE of WT.

-Ask your sifu if he's ever sparred against the any of the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu guys in Billings, or maybe some of the mixed martial arts guys in your town........


WT is NOT for "sparring" in the sense your statement may mislead people to think it is.

The only rule to WT is to get the job done, not prove how pretty and pink it is.

There are no score cards and no silly little rules. "Sports competition" was NOT in mind when WT was developed.

Remember WT was developed BY a woman FOR a woman AGAINST larger, stronger opponents. It was designed to win quickly and economically and to exploit the weaknesses in all five animal forms of Kung Fu.

Who in their right mind would WANT to waste time with anything else for real combat?

If you are one of those you have described above, [i.e. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, ect.] I am sure you know by now where on the map Billings, Montana is. Why not make the trip and challenge my sifu yourself. Hell, challenge ME. Put your money where your mouth is.

I dont need to ask my sifu about his "sparring" matches, I see it for myself. Doesnt your sifu show what he can do?


Keep your mind open and don't let yourself be brainwashed by anyone, -no matter what their title (grandmaster, sifu, whatever.....) Let your own judgement have the final say, but only after you give an issue deep and honest consideration. Just repeating what someone else has said is intellectual laziness. -Don't resign yourself to that.......


Hundreds of years of devastating techniques from one system speaks for itself. I don't need to study 16 techniques for one objective. Like a dozen different kickes from two dozen different angles. THAT is watered down martial arts=brainwashing.

Anyone who genuinley knows WT will know what I mean by that. I dont need to repeat what others say....I EXPERIENCE it firsthand. I am one of those that has to have PROOF. Evidence of the truth. I am developing in this system and in the process of learning. However, I have learned ALOT in the short time I have practiced it.

I have recieved proof via my own eyes and experience....and thats sufficient for me.

Have a nice day ;)




-Lawrence

[lawrenceofidaho]

My bad, Kitten....... :(

It seems you do have a pretty decent understanding of WT after all, -even studying for such a short time. (It's a testament to your sifu and the seniors at your school.)

"Sihing" (James) is probably right....... maybe it is best to have Faith in those guys and what you're learning from them.

Happy Training.

Peace, out.

-L

[SoftWT]

You're a couragious and humble man, LawrenceofIdaho. Peace out to you.

BTW, what part of Idaho are you from? :confused:



My bad, Kitten....... :(

It seems you do have a pretty decent understanding of WT after all, -even studying for such a short time. (It's a testament to your sifu and the seniors at your school.)

"Sihing" (James) is probably right....... maybe it is best to have Faith in those guys and what you're learning from them.

Happy Training.

Peace, out.

-L

[Nick Forrer]

Lawrence gives good advice

James: to be fair I dont think Lawrence was saying 'trust me over your teacher' he was saying 'dont trust anyone who cant demonstrate what they teach against a non compliant partner'.

The problem for beginners is that its easy to blind them with theory and impress them with demonstrations especially when they dont have anything to compare it to. I have caught myself doing this with new students - hard to resist I know given the 'wow' factor you often get in return.

While WC/WT/VT 'in theory' has answers to everything, until you've been arm barred by a BJJ stylist, been double legged by a good wrestler, thrown by a good judoka, or been clocked with a tight boxing hook you wont appreciate the speed timing and power with which they do this. These techniques can literally come out of no where. Im not saying give up on wing chun but being complacent about other styles (thinking that they are unscientific, that they are only sports) does not help you develop in the long run.

At the end of the day pretty much everyone in every style thinks theres is the best otherwise they wouldnt do it. In general, only the high level seasoned martial artists I've met were much more wary about dismissing other arts.

[SevenStar]

Ya, but every time someone on here posts "Proof" & "Evidence", the nay sayers start another thread in the hopes that their supporters and others will follow them to cover up the success story. It's been reported many times of people's stories of WC success in real combat and in competitions only to be ignored or forgotten, so to say that ONLY the UFC counts as a testing ground is ridiculous. Does this mean all of us have to compete in the UFC now to prove ourselves as combat effective?? I don't think so, and so do many others.

that's not true at all. Matter of factly, I've talked about anerlich's school's mma successes on other forums, as well as those of northern lights taiji. Also, we don't say that the ufc is the ONLY testing ground - we merely say that you need SOME testing ground. doesn't matter if it's san shou, mma, thai boxing, kickboxing, etc. but do SOMETHING. And it's not to prove anything to anyone other than yourself. It's one thing to have an untested sense of confidence; it's another to KNOW that you can do what you are training to do.


To me UFC=RULES & INDIVIDUALITY, and does not reflect a particularly MA effectiveness.

it's not supposed to reflect that. But you do have to notice the trends. TMA usually do awful in MMA. what does well? combos of grappling and striking - catch, greco, bjj, boxing, muay thai, etc. bottom line there is that you need to train striking AND grappling. It is not inferring anything other than that. Which striking and grappling systems you use is up to you. Heck, if you want to use wc and dog boxing, go for it.



Do each and every MMA fighter in the UFC use the exact same system, or they all doing different things to tweek their own strengths in combat sports.

On the most basic level, they do the same thing - strike and grapple.



Plus in the end UFC is still a sport, with rules and referee's.

That doesn't necessarily matter as much as people would like to think it does.


Most every time I watch a UFC fight I see things they can be doing more efficiently and/or effectively.


It's always easiest when you're on the outside looking in...

[SoftWT]

Let me make myself perfectly clear so that this sinks into your head. I am NOT taking WT to COMPETE with any of the martial artists, wrestlers or WHATEVER, that you have mentioned below. WT is [NOT FOR] "sports competition". It IS for [NO RULES SELF DEFENSE].

So get off that "fair play in the ring with other martial arts" kick BS.

THATS not what WT is for.

If some a$$hole on the street attacked me, I will utilize what I know in WT to defend myself. I dont CARE what style, if any, of MA he practices and I do not CARE about following any rules!!!! All I care about is RESULTS. And WT is all about RESULTS, not theory.

Besides what are the odds of a woman being randomly attacked by a martial arts expert for rape, or whatever? NEXT TO NOTHING, thats what. Chances are better it would be a low-life druggy or punk. Either way, I am not going to just STAND there and let you negotiate what you are going to do to me! LMAO. Oh, lets see here, I think Ill try a headlock, no wait, an arm lock, no wait, a side kick, no wait, a spinning front kick, no wait....in the meantime I will be feeding you a steady diet of chain punches that you will not soon forget.

So what PART of that don't you understand? :rolleyes: :confused:

Sorry for sounding so crude, but DAM. Give it a BREAK.

I would encourage you to read the history of WT so that you are not so ignorant of the purpose of the system.

Have a Nice day!! :cool:



Lawrence gives good advice


While WC/WT/VT 'in theory' has answers to everything, until you've been arm barred by a BJJ stylist, been double legged by a good wrestler, thrown by a good judoka, or been clocked with a tight boxing hook you wont appreciate the speed timing and power with which they do this. These techniques can literally come out of no where. Im not saying give up on wing chun but being complacent about other styles (thinking that they are unscientific, that they are only sports) does not help you develop in the long run.

At the end of the day pretty much everyone in every style thinks theres is the best otherwise they wouldnt do it. In general, only the high level seasoned martial artists I've met were much more wary about dismissing other arts.

[Ernie]

Let me make myself perfectly clear so that this sinks into your head. I am NOT taking WT to COMPETE with any of the martial artists, wrestlers or WHATEVER, that you have mentioned below. WT is [NOT FOR] "sports competition". It IS for [NO RULES SELF DEFENSE].

So get off that "fair play in the ring with other martial arts" kick BS.

THATS not what WT is for.

If some a$$hole on the street attacked me, I will utilize what I know in WT to defend myself. I dont CARE what style, if any, of MA he practices and I do not CARE about following any rules!!!! All I care about is RESULTS. And WT is all about RESULTS, not theory.

Besides what are the odds of a woman being randomly attacked by a martial arts expert for rape, or whatever? NEXT TO NOTHING, thats what. Chances are better it would be a low-life druggy or punk. Either way, I am not going to just STAND there and let you negotiate what you are going to do to me! LMAO. Oh, lets see here, I think Ill try a headlock, no wait, an arm lock, no wait, a side kick, no wait, a spinning front kick, no wait....in the meantime I will be feeding you a steady diet of chain punches that you will not soon forget.

So what PART of that don't you understand? :rolleyes: :confused:

Sorry for sounding so crude, but DAM. Give it a BREAK.

I would encourage you to read the history of WT so that you are not so ignorant of the purpose of the system.

Have a Nice day!! :cool:

James I think i found your long lost twin sisiter !!!!! ;)

[[in the meantime I will be feeding you a steady diet of chain punches that you will not soon forget.]]]

classic :rolleyes:

[air]

Hmm I dont post here much if at all but ive been looking at these forums regularly for a couple of yrs..

anyhow been studing wing chun for 12yrs and goju ryu for about 5yrs before that and whatever my father taught me which involves jujitsu,judo, dirty old man fighting :)


My father is a vietnam vet served 3tours in vietnam and stayed in the military for 28yrs.

I myself teach wing chun to handful of students, I also did a security job at a night club in atlantic city for awhile yrs back anyhow

Lets get a couple of things straight TRUTH is truth plain and simple.

People argue all day long about what needs to be added, to what whats realistic combat and the arguments go on and on.

First lets look at a couple of things people who compete proffessionally
boxing,ufc,kick boxing etc..

Have only 1 advantage and thats is that these people constantly put themselves in an enviroment were they can control and maintain there adrenaline lvls. thats were the advantage ends

im not talking about competion im talking about survival, (something my father actually knows more about then alot of you yahoos who talk a big game but dont walk the walk, Myself I have yet to be "beaten up" partly because i dont go looking for trouble but partly because when trouble does rear its ugly head i just beat it down...


Let look at some realities that you guys dont.

1) it is easy to kill someone actually
2) it is also easy to gain control of your enemy
3) when you dont know what to expect you dont know how to effectively counter it
4)anyone who puts forth the effort ,sweat,tears into there training will be a force to reckon with regardless of size,style etc...

5) why does my wing chun work or anyone elses and why do some peoples wing chun not work.

Short simple answer is this. How much time do you have to train? it takes yrs and yrs to become a expert...And one thing that makes me laugh is when People think that taking 3hours a week of anything in a group enviroment is going to make you better.. expecially if the class is 20plus students. (please dont say well if you took 2yrs of this or that you would learn more then 10yrs of this or that BAH RUBBISH)

I have and always will be a private student, I have been in public classes there a joke to say the least..Id rather have 1on1 with the big cheese himself or herself if the case dictates it


I suppose you think your going to grapple to the ground thats great and all but i think im going to bit your nipples off or into your muscle tissue.

your going to rush me ,hmm were am i Do I have a bottle in my hand? or gun in my pocket or switchblade for that matter , actually you have no idea what im carrying on me For the love of all that is good I could prob blind you with a couple of quarters and pennies...

Wing chun does not need to prove to you or anyone else its effectiveness because for millions of people it already has so move on to a new topic please.


Let me ask some of my own questions

Why do you fight ? what are you trying to prove? Do you even UNDERSTAND the difference between fighting for your life and fighting for your pride hmm i wonder

SHow me any fighter who is elite hand to hand fighter and give me a staff I bet i win...

morale of the story kung fu, karate, bs fuuy looie does it matter ? no what matters is realizing who you are , knowing what you are capable of, and not lying to yourself...


sorry for such a arrogant kinda ignorant post

Ive been wanting to post something for sometime but most times i never get passed the self inflated ego driven post that rule these forums..

[roza]

To SoftWT :
It is not important for this thread ,but : developed by woman for woman???Keen on legends???So you would not miss the opportunity to join the session of old masters in Fatsan and ask them about how and why the legends were created. After all the laught ,you would get the explanation.

It could put more light on all what you have written here.

To prevent your question - yes ,I was ,several times.
To prevent the next one - yes ,both ,Hongkong and mainland masters.

Do not take it personaly ,please.
Regards
Roza

[Ultimatewingchun]

Long lost twin sister!!! :p :p :p :D :D :D


I might lose that fight on purpose. (Don't tell my wife I said that). :rolleyes:

[sihing]

James I think i found your long lost twin sisiter !!!!! ;)

[[in the meantime I will be feeding you a steady diet of chain punches that you will not soon forget.]]]

classic :rolleyes:
Well you know my friend, some of us see the light and some still wear sunglassess...... :D

Praise the Lord everybody, Praise the Lord......Halleluiah :p :p


James

[tiger_1]

my dear friend : wing chun is great for atac or defence , have great are real hand texnic , my dear friend if you start learning wing chun must know somting :you cant learn wing chun you must be wing chun , must see , are must be kung fu ,allso you must know sistem strategy of wing chun and must traning hard must traning hard , or 4 or 5 times in 7 days , 3 or 5 h. in one traning , and you must tru to see all aspect of wing chun . - just friendly tiger_1 :cool: positions in wing chun you can learn for 15min. but for use for real fight or situation you must traning many many time. :cool:

[Liddel]

Wow, one guy asks a ligitimate question to provoke some thought or to just plain get some feedback and the subject gets 'HIGHJACKED'....

If this is how the forum was intended to be used... then What on earth is the Personal Messaging function for ?

The funny thing is people argue over things as if they want to assert that thier POV is right, like you cant both be correct...
Does that mean your hear to show off ?......or prove your better than someone else ?
Im not to impressed :cool:

[lawrenceofidaho]

To re-post from the "Thinking Out Loud" thread:


Originally Posted by fa_jing
some great posts here. Your "style" isn't going to go out and do the fighting for you. YOU have to do it. Your "style" is only as good as YOU can make it effective. And in order to make it effective, you can't be close-minded and dogmatic.

If someone's already "drank the Kool-Aid", it may be too late for them, and there's probably not a whole lot that anyone can do to talk them down from the ledge they're teetering on.

Although it's (sadly) the thing that could help them the most to grow as a martial artist and a person, -these folks generally shield themselves from such experiences which might potentially contradict their current beliefs.

If you're a naturally helpful person, you're probably inclined to be sharing with your hard earned experiential lessons, but there are just some people who appear not particularly interested in reality, and it seems there's really not much you can do to be helpful to someone who prefers to live in a sheltered fantasy like that.

That said, I just want to say thanks to all the guys (and gals!), who are not here to push some agenda / lineage / marketing nonsense, and are simply being generous by sharing the knowledge and insight they have earned firsthand from their training experiences.

The things I have learned from trying out ideas suggested by kind folks here on this forum have definitely taken my training to a higher level during the past 18 months since I joined!

Thanks again.

-Lawrence

[Edmund]

James I think i found your long lost twin sisiter !!!!! ;)

[[in the meantime I will be feeding you a steady diet of chain punches that you will not soon forget.]]]

classic :rolleyes:

LMAO. :D

Poor Nick. He's got some Two Month WT student telling him to study the history of WT and saying stuff like this:

"Developed BY a woman FOR a woman..."
"exploit the weaknesses in all five animal forms of Kung Fu"

[Fajing]

"exploit the weaknesses in all five animal forms of Kung Fu"


Nice! :D I don't know if I mentioned it, but I train under BLADE. We hunt vampires and sh*t together. Very realistic stuff. And UFC guys thought they were hardcore. :p :p :p

[PaulH]

Interesting posts! I would say that WC can work very well because its various training aspects help to resolve many contradictions between body, mind, and spirit. The goal as Ernie points out is good natural instinct usage. There is no conflict when a man is a natural. For that in itself is always a scary factor in all one's lifetime confrontations with the significant others.:p

[SoftWT]

For both Edmund (is THAT your real name? :eek: ) and Nick:

Oh thats right. 2 months real life MA study is no match for bullshhitters on the internet talking shhit for 10 years, or however long you 've been here running your mouth. Any more idiotic remarks? Oh yes, I am sure there are. But I don't need to argue anymore with small-minded pinheads on here. I have REAL Kung Fu to study in REAL life, dreamer. :p Besides, you're just jealous that a WOMAN invented something that can and will kick your A$$. So keep your jealous retorts to yourself. LMFAO. :cool: ;)



LMAO. :D

Poor Nick. He's got some Two Month WT student telling him to study the history of WT and saying stuff like this:

"Developed BY a woman FOR a woman..."
"exploit the weaknesses in all five animal forms of Kung Fu"

[Ernie]

Time of death 8:15 am
Date of death Aug 25 2005 -[ give or take 2 months ]
Gender Female
Age ?

Cause of death - Personal issues exploited/complicated by Kung Fu Kool Aid over dose

Physician Dr. Jack Kavorkian :cool:

[AndrewS]

'SoftWT',

Get a grip.

Are you in the US? Who's your teacher? Why do you think it's appropriate to walk into a situation without knowing anyone involved and start being insulting and rude after 2 months of training? Do you think this reflects well on you, your teacher, or your system?

The historicity of Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun and their roles in the development of Wing Chun are not clear cut issues. Historical and hopological evidence points *away* from roles for either of those people, if they even existed. There are numerous accounts of Yip Man and the early students saying the story was made up for marketing reasons in the early 1950s.

Looking within your own line, Leung Ting has vacillated in print between buying into the Wing Chun origin story and not. 'Roots and Branches' discusses his thought process a bit. His last public statement was that he bought into it, but the animal fight story was actually between a White Crane and Muay Thai stylist. Geographically and hopologically, you can make a strong argument for interaction between northern thai methods and Fatshan methods.

Andrew

[Nick Forrer]

[COLOR=Navy] For both Edmund (is THAT your real name? :eek: ) and Nick:

Oh thats right. 2 months real life MA study is no match for bullshhitters on the internet talking shhit for 10 years, or however long you 've been here running your mouth.

FYI (not that its particularly relevant) I've been training wing chun for 7 years (more than some, less than others). While I dont train WT I have a few good friends that do (one for 5 years, another for 10 years) and I often train with them - so I know roughly how WT works although I dont claim to be an expert. I have also trained with Emin Boztepe (who is regarded by some as the best fighter in WT) a couple of times, and even given him 'props' on here.

To my knowledge I have never bullsh_ited, talked smack, trolled or anything like that on here. I have at times disagreed with people but even when I do I am polite and respect the others point of view. Also, as you can see, I use my real name so I dont hide behind the cloak of anonymity that some do.

The fact that you respond so vehemently when someone simply disagrees with you or even just tries to give you some helpful advice (as I did) is IMO telling. I wonder if you are like this in normal life when you are face to face with people and not behind a keyboard. If you are like this I imagine life must be difficult being so confrontational. Personally I try and discuss things without getting emotional. Throwing insults left and right does not make for a strong argument. In fact it often indicates a persons own insecurities about the argument they are making.



Any more idiotic remarks? Oh yes, I am sure there are. But I don't need to argue anymore with small-minded pinheads on here. I have REAL Kung Fu to study in REAL life, dreamer. :p

Besides, you're just jealous that a WOMAN invented something that can and will kick your A$$.


Just curious. Why are you so sure it was invented by a woman? Or even one person? Or that the WT you do today is the same as that of 400 years ago? Have you seen any mainland styles? Are you aware of the all the different branches and how different they are from one another? I think you are just regurgutating the fairy story your teacher has told you with out bothering to ask whether it is fact or fiction.

FWIW Ng Mui is a mythical character that appears in many CMA histories. Saying that wing chun comes from her is (as I think Rene R once pointed out) like saying a fencing style comes from King Arthur or a wrestling style comes from Hercules.

We can only conclusively trace wing chun back to the red opera junks. Before that AFAIK its just guesswork (see the VTM website for more detail).

[Mr Punch]

This SoftWC has gotta be a troll, or on crack or something. :rolleyes: :D

BTW Soft, Nick IS one of the politest, most respectful people on this board and though I've had my disagreements with him, the state of your response quite frankly is digusting. With a lack of control like that over something as simple as what you're writing, if you do get into a reflex situation in the street you're a prime candidate for the slab.

With regards to your hardass street smart post... how many times have you been attacked in the street? Some of us here actually have a lot of experience. I, like you, have no doubt of wing chun's effectiveness over your average slob... but perhaps you don't realize, your average slob in the US will now have been watching UFC and TUF and going for dumb tackles left right and centre, and with the environment problems, they may just get lucky. Plus your average slob may have a history of high-school wrestling/football, and most even average highschool wrestlers/footballers could easily drop your average chunner. Plus again, did you realize that 16% of the US army is overweight, and that this is the primary reason for expulsion from the army? And there's a whole group of average slobs you'd probably be underestimating...

And once you're on the ground (OK so I don't believe the 90% **** by any means, but it's still very possible in many environments)... now I know Leung Ting's wing chun, I've trained with lots of them, and it's very good, but I know most of their 'groundwork' too, and it's going be a ticket to a nasty rape if you're attacked by someone with such a mind.

So, a little less venom, a little more realism, and a little less mindless attacking of things from people who just MAY have a point... this is a discussion board. Cheers.

[sits back with bile proof hat]

[WingChunTao]

You guys should leave the girl alone or didn't your MOMA teach you guys how to treat women. Besides It doesn't take years of MA training to see through someones BS.

Kitten you are a threat to thier machisimo Internet Warrior status.
The truth is that no one knows who invented Wing Chun or for that matter most martial arts. We do know that Wing Chun has female characteristics and I think that is why people are threatned. Most of these guys would rather hug and role around on the ground with other men anyway. Go figure.

Guys? What happens to a cat or kitten when it is cornerd? It strikes back!!!

[SoftWT]

Excuse me? How dare you even mention rape to me? You guys want to challenge me then call me a troll or say I am on crack because you don't like how I step up to the plate? Stuff your double standard up your a$$. FYI I don't make it a habit of provoking attacks on the streets. As far as how and when I have ever been attacked, its none of your business. So butt of out of a conversation that is not YOURS.



This SoftWC has gotta be a troll, or on crack or something. :rolleyes: :D

BTW Soft, Nick IS one of the politest, most respectful people on this board and though I've had my disagreements with him, the state of your response quite frankly is digusting. With a lack of control like that over something as simple as what you're writing, if you do get into a reflex situation in the street you're a prime candidate for the slab.

With regards to your hardass street smart post... how many times have you been attacked in the street? Some of us here actually have a lot of experience. I, like you, have no doubt of wing chun's effectiveness over your average slob... but perhaps you don't realize, your average slob in the US will now have been watching UFC and TUF and going for dumb tackles left right and centre, and with the environment problems, they may just get lucky. Plus your average slob may have a history of high-school wrestling/football, and most even average highschool wrestlers/footballers could easily drop your average chunner. Plus again, did you realize that 16% of the US army is overweight, and that this is the primary reason for expulsion from the army? And there's a whole group of average slobs you'd probably be underestimating...

And once you're on the ground (OK so I don't believe the 90% **** by any means, but it's still very possible in many environments)... now I know Leung Ting's wing chun, I've trained with lots of them, and it's very good, but I know most of their 'groundwork' too, and it's going be a ticket to a nasty rape if you're attacked by someone with such a mind.

So, a little less venom, a little more realism, and a little less mindless attacking of things from people who just MAY have a point... this is a discussion board. Cheers.

[sits back with bile proof hat]

[Mr Punch]

There's nothing wrong either with what Lawrence said also, testing your skills against others of different Martial Arts experience. Problem here is that usually there are RULES, that inhibit full usage of your skills against one another, therefore the holding back factor may play a role in finding out exactly how good you and your Martial Art is against other fighters. Some good points as ever James, and as ever some lightly delusional input...! ;) You talk about rules being restrictive then illustrate your point as follows with talking about a basic response to any attack... which then seems to be a codified rule, and therefore restricting your natural response...? No...?
This is where the various theories and concepts that underlay every Martial Art have to be analyzed and at some point compared to one another. Movement is movement gentlemen, and if one way of movement can be proven to be more effective than another, then why would you assume it will not work, and the less effective one would?Because you're analyzing and I'm testing. Sometimes what seems to be less affective in some situations ends up being more so.[quoyte] For example, a basic strategy we teach from our WC is when your opponent begins to attack you in any sort of manner, just before he is in range to hit you, step to the side, outside of his lead foot (while maintaining a good guard to defend round/hooks and balance in stance), this way you are avoiding the force of your opponent, regardless if it is a punch, kick or shoot attempt, you are evading his initial attack. [/quote]In my shoot, my lead leg is between both of your legs. So how are you stepping to the side? Plus, I'm shooting from chi sao range... to me, it's just a nother natural chi sao move, so you shouldn't know it has happened till I'm on top of you after your head's hit the concrete. If I kick a roundhouse, I can choose whether to start it from within your hand range or out, and I can choose whether to kick for your lead leg, your rear leg, or your ribs at the last split second. I can guarantee as much as you can anything, that you will not be able to detect which of those targets I'm going for, and therefore whatever 'defence' you choose will have a very limited chance of working.

In short, treating all attacks as the same is a dangerous fantasy. Zoning can work, protecting gates maybe, if you're working it in live training... otherwise, it's back to Fantasyville.


My advice to SoftWT is to have faith in what you are learning, work hard at it and ask allot of questions. Also, be aware of what other MA teach, understand them and what they do, so that if you were to ever met a practitioner in combat from one of these arts, you will be able to recognize their style and not be surprised by their methods. Remember that anyone of high quality skill level in any MA is dangerous, including WC practitioners, so believe in it and it will serve you well.Good advice.

[AndrewS]

You guys should leave the girl alone or didn't your MOMA teach you guys how to treat women. Besides It doesn't take years of MA training to see through someones BS.

My PhD, full-professor in 2 departments, running a multimillion dollar grant mother taught me exactly how to treat women, as have the various female pioneers in physiology (Anna-Marie Weber, Marion Sigmund, Clara Franzini-Armstrong) whom I have had the privilige of knowing.

They, and others, taught me the value of intellectual honesty, logical thinking, experimental design, and that people should be treated as individuals. Delusion, magical thinking, and lack of respect for data deserve no special consideration just because they're attached to breasts.


We do know that Wing Chun has female characteristics and I think that is why people are threatned.

Er, how do we 'know' this again?


Guys? What happens to a cat or kitten when it is cornerd? It strikes back!!!

Frequently pulling guard, sometimes going for side control.


Andrew

[SoftWT]

I realize there are legends to explain every martial art, including WT. However, not ALL legends concerning them can be fantasies, or there wouldnt be any [effective] martial arts.

But the fact that they have survived for so long is a testament to their effectiveness and historical accuracy. ALL MA's origins are passed down by word of mouth, and passed on via personal teaching, ect. NOT from watching video tapes and reading websites or posting on forums. LOL

But I am working on becoming the best I can be with one MA, WT. This is a system meant for smaller and weaker fighters to utilize a larger opponents power and weight against them, and is perfect for me, since I am smaller and weaker than a man.

;)





You guys should leave the girl alone or didn't your MOMA teach you guys how to treat women. Besides It doesn't take years of MA training to see through someones BS.

Kitten you are a threat to thier machisimo Internet Warrior status.
The truth is that no one knows who invented Wing Chun or for that matter most martial arts. We do know that Wing Chun has female characteristics and I think that is why people are threatned. Most of these guys would rather hug and role around on the ground with other men anyway. Go figure.

Guys? What happens to a cat or kitten when it is cornerd? It strikes back!!!

[Mr Punch]

Excuse me? How dare you even mention rape to me? You guys want to challenge me then call me a troll or say I am on crack because you don't like how I step up to the plate? Stuff your double standard up your a$$. FYI I don't make it a habit of provoking attacks on the streets. As far as how and when I have ever been attacked, its none of your business. So butt of out of a conversation that is not YOURS.
:rolleyes:
How dare I? Easily. Rape is a quite common attack among attacks on young females in any society. And people don't usually get raped standing up. If you've got personal problems with talking about rape, probably best not to bring them up on a public forum.

:rolleyes: 2.

What double standard?

Oh, wait...

I don't actually give a ****.

[AndrewS]

SoftWT writes:


Excuse me? How dare you even mention rape to me? You guys want to challenge me then call me a troll or say I am on crack because you don't like how I step up to the plate? Stuff your double standard up your a$$. FYI I don't make it a habit of provoking attacks on the streets. As far as how and when I have ever been attacked, its none of your business. So butt of out of a conversation that is not YOURS.

When talking about self-defense and women, rape isn't a 'how dare you mention it' issue; it's the sine qua non of the practical side of training physically and psychologically.

The problems you are having with people here is based on the poverty of evidence to support your viewpoint and the strident dogmatism with with which you assert it.

As to your request to Mat to 'butt out' -this is a public forum, and hence, public discourse.

Andrew

[SoftWT]

Your mouth is ****ing me off. Women and girls DO get raped standing up. YOU brought up the comment about rape, so SHUT UP. You have NO business talking about something you obviously are ignorant about. Juvenile.




:rolleyes:
How dare I? Easily. Rape is a quite common attack among attacks on young females in any society. And people don't usually get raped standing up. If you've got personal problems with talking about rape, probably best not to bring them up on a public forum.

:rolleyes: 2.

What double standard?

Oh, wait...

I don't actually give a ****.

[SoftWT]

http://www.leungting.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=35&Itemid=58&lang=en


Read for yourself. Then maybe you could argue next that this really isnt Yip Man's words, or maybe Leung Ting is making this all up. LMAO.



'SoftWT',



Looking within your own line, Leung Ting has vacillated in print between buying into the Wing Chun origin story and not. 'Roots and Branches' discusses his thought process a bit. His last public statement was that he bought into it, but the animal fight story was actually between a White Crane and Muay Thai stylist. Geographically and hopologically, you can make a strong argument for interaction between northern thai methods and Fatshan methods.

Andrew

[Mr Punch]

:rolleyes:
How dare I? Easily. Rape is a quite common attack among attacks on young females in any society.
When talking about self-defense and women, rape isn't a 'how dare you mention it' issue; it's the sine qua non of the practical side of training physically and psychologically.





Women and girls DO get raped standing up.
And people don't usually get raped standing up.




YOU brought up the comment about rape,
If you've got personal problems with talking about rape, probably best not to bring them up on a public forum.

:rolleyes:

Cheers Andrew. Can't be dealing with some 'kitty' idiot who prefers to be patronised than to talk about real issues rationally. Later.

[SoftWT]

You need to BUTT OUT too.
Byeeee.



SoftWT writes:



When talking about self-defense and women, rape isn't a 'how dare you mention it' issue; it's the sine qua non of the practical side of training physically and psychologically.

The problems you are having with people here is based on the poverty of evidence to support your viewpoint and the strident dogmatism with with which you assert it.

As to your request to Mat to 'butt out' -this is a public forum, and hence, public discourse.

Andrew

[AndrewS]

SoftWT writes:


I realize there are legends to explain every martial art, including WT. However, not ALL legends concerning them can be fantasies, or there wouldnt be any [effective] martial arts.

There's a logical fallacy there. The legends don't have to be true for something to be effective.


But the fact that they have survived for so long is a testament to their effectiveness and historical accuracy. ALL MA's origins are passed down by word of mouth, and passed on via personal teaching, ect. NOT from watching video tapes and reading websites or posting on forums. LOL

Survival of a martial art is not necessarily because of it's 'effectiveness'. Martial arts fulfill numerous cultural and social roles. Those arts which embrace and require constant testing against resistance will be 'effective' in the context of that resistance (boxers aren't necessarily decent grapplers).

Moreover, survival of an art does not ensure the accuracy of its historical accounts. Read 'Yuen Kay Sai Wing Chun', 'Complete Wing Chun', and 'Roots and Branches of Wing Chun', then go hang with people from multiple lineages if you're serious about being a student.


But I am working on becoming the best I can be with one MA, WT. This is a system meant for smaller and weaker fighters to utilize a larger opponents power and weight against them, and is perfect for me, since I am smaller and weaker than a man.

Good goal. Realize the whole 'smaller/weaker/opponent's force' thing is basically marketing, though, and that if you seriously want to hang with the guys, you're gonna hafta bang with the guys. Get comfortable with the sort of impact you'd be taking in a decent pit, and learn to train at that level, 'cos you need to deal with force if you're going to learn to subvert it.

Andrew

[SoftWT]

You are not as smart as you THINK you are. The rape comment, if anyone cares about being ACCURATE in their conclusions, originated with Mat. Lets see if he is MAN ENOUGH to own up to it. Or maybe hes a coward and will let someone else take the rap. You roll your eyes that much in real life too? I bet you DO Sally.


:rolleyes:

Cheers Andrew. Can't be dealing with some 'kitty' idiot who prefers to be patronised than to talk about real issues rationally. Later.

[Nick Forrer]

I realize there are legends to explain every martial art, including WT.

Good.



However, not ALL legends concerning them can be fantasies, or there wouldnt be any [effective] martial arts.

Nope. Non sequiter.



But the fact that they have survived for so long is a testament to their effectiveness

Maybe.



.......and historical accuracy.

Nope. Another non sequiter. In fact the longer the history the more likely myth and legend is to intervene



ALL MA's origins are passed down by word of mouth, and passed on via personal teaching, ect.

Nope. Yip man passed on the origins of wing chun via a written document.



But I am working on becoming the best I can be with one MA, WT.


Good for you. Now isnt it better to train to be able to handle the skilled boxer rather than just the average joe on the street who knows nothing? And isnt part of that not dismissing what they do outright as 'unscientfic' but giving it a healthy respect (not fear). After all if you can deal with a trained boxers attacks how easy will the lazy haymakers of a drunken no nothing be? Can you say the same thing about the converse?



This is a system meant for smaller and weaker fighters to utilize a larger opponents power and weight against them, and is perfect for me, since I am smaller and weaker than a man.


Wing chun is not unique in that respect. Other systems make the same claim e.g. Gracie Jiu Jitsu.

[AndrewS]

Soft WT,

you're being extremely rude to one of your seniors (me).

Over the last 11 years in WT I've attended at least 25 seminars with Leung Ting prior to the split- probably have spent more face time training with him than you have training. I've spent a good bit of time discussing history with him, and have heard his discussion on this- again read 'Roots and Branches', where he details his vacillations.

I've said my piece out of a vague sense of obligation to help my junior.

Andrew

[SoftWT]

So Mat, you tried to make the quote appear to be mine, but here it is. I back up everything I say. BTW, if you know as much as you claim you wouldnt be mispelling WT. Nice going. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


This SoftWC has gotta be a troll, or on crack or something. :rolleyes: :D


And once you're on the ground (OK so I don't believe the 90% **** by any means, but it's still very possible in many environments)... now I know Leung Ting's wing chun, I've trained with lots of them, and it's very good, but I know most of their 'groundwork' too, and it's going be a ticket to a nasty rape if you're attacked by someone with such a mind.

[sits back with bile proof hat]

[PaulH]

Guys,

I saw a page in mysterious Chinese scribbles from White Crane people's historical documents that seems to credit a woman with "Fangs" something as the founder of a White Crane offshoot- Wing Chun. :) The female seems to be a real historical person. So yes, there is something to the story of WC being founded by a woman. Beside, whatever Yip Man wrote is very hip to me! :)

[anerlich]

Most of these guys would rather hug and role around on the ground with other men anyway. Go figure.

I do BJJ as well as Wing Chun. I have as many regular female training partners in BJJ as I do guys. One of them won a seniors gold medal in the World Champs in Brazil last year and came third in the Machado Nationals.

People that don't grapple say things like this to make themselves feel superior to those that choose to do different things, out of fear and/or ignorance.

Francois (sp), you made some intelligent posts in the past that indicate you are smarter than most of the Detroiters that so recently graced these pages. then you blow away that impression with a silly remark like this.

As Andrew S said, cats often end up groundfighting, kicking with the back legs. And they grab and bite rather than strike, in my observation as someone who has owned and cared for cats for 30+ years.

[lawrenceofidaho]

Most of these guys would rather hug and role around on the ground with other men anyway. Go figure.
Guys who say those sorts of things are the type of men you can show twenty different Rorshach inkblots, and they will see depictions of gay sex in each one.

Statements like that say nothing about wrestling / judo / jiu-jitsu practicioners (in general), and everything about the "closet-case" who utters them.......

-Lawrence

[Mr Punch]

You are not as smart as you THINK you are. The rape comment, if anyone cares about being ACCURATE in their conclusions, originated with Mat. Lets see if he is MAN ENOUGH to own up to it. Or maybe hes a coward and will let someone else take the rap. You roll your eyes that much in real life too? I bet you DO Sally.
So Mat, you tried to make the quote appear to be mine, but here it is. I back up everything I say.I can't be man enough to own up to something I didn't deny saying in the first place child. In fact, I even defended my talking about rape from the start, so it's pretty obvious to any cogent adult that I wasn't denying saying it.

So, sorry, what quote?

And yes, I roll my eyes to rude sh!ts and children who should be old enough to know better frequently.

Since you didn't seem to udnerstand it the first two times, I said:

If you've got personal problems with talking about rape, probably best not to bring them up on a public forum.Let's go through junior high-school grammar shall we, for the hard of understanding? The object of the above sentence is not rape, but the word problems, therefore the things that you shouldn't be bringing up oin a public forum are those problems, not the question of rape itself. As has already been pointed out to you, the reason why rape is a legitimate subject for these forums should be obvious; it is a very real problem for many female victims of violence, and many of us in many ways want to discuss problems of violence on this, a board dedicated to a supposedly street-effective martial art.

The meaning of my sentence was therefore something like this: If your personal experience precludes you from being able to talk about rape on this forum without sounding like a twelve year-old with Tourette's, you should desist. We are not psychologists. Nor should your personal experience cause you to conclude that other people's experiences do not differ, or are not in fact valid in any way. People do have different experiences, you know.

And in no way did I intimate that you were in any way looking for trouble in the streets; your over-defensive response indicates you have had some negative experience or you believe that trouble only happens to those who look for it, which is wrong. I have had trouble in the streets on several occasions. On none of those occasins have I been looking for it in any way. Only on one or two of those occasions has it been avoidable in any way, and that would have been by choosing to walk home a different way in my own neighbourhood, a freedom I'm not too willing to give up too easily.

Most rapes occur lying down. Now, if you're willing to try and stop a man larger and stronger than you from getting you into that position in the first place, when by your own admission you're smaller and weaker, you'd better be **** sure your lovely chain punches have enough stopping power. Practising with resisting opponents, not just in chi sao, will demonstrate to you that sometimes they will and sometimes they won't. So it's a good idea to have a back-up plan if it goes to ground.

Personally I don't believe any wing chun I've seen provides me with enough to cover my ass on the ground; if yours does, fair enough, well done and keep up the good work, but I'd still warn against blind faith because you've found a sifu who you get on with.

And as an aside, WT and WC...? Grow up, and try addressing some real issues. I don't give a **** about that either, and it's only people with vested (commercial) interests who ever do.

[Mr Punch]

Statements like that say nothing about wrestling / judo / jiu-jitsu practicioners (in general), and everything about the "closet-case" who utters them...On the nail.

[Fajing]

Wow, what is goin on in this thread? Rape, insest, ****phobia....hhhaaa. Okay, now I don't really practice much BJJ, but I'm pretty sure there isn't a correlation between ground fighting and ****sexuality. We aren't talkin about the old gladiators back in Greece who used to rape their opponent after winning for pure humiliation. Fighting is fighting, self defnse is self defense. There's nothing wrong with knowing a little ground game. RAPE will always be an issue with attack, Hell look at the prison system. That is where most rapes occur, and it concerns MEN, NOT WOMEN. This is a forum. We can discuss all kinds of things concerning attack and defense. As far as the origins of Wing Chun go, who the Hell really knows. We didn't live back then. :eek: Chain punching is great. Spinning off 7 punches per second feels AWESOME, but it won't end all confrontations. ;)

[stricker]

The amount of delusion and ignorance in this thread is awful. :(

[SAAMAG]

Man, I leave for a little while and come back to this?!

Has nothing changed?!

It's funny. New people come on board and then try to preach to the choir about how much they know about wing chun...when in fact they don't seem to realize the people they're talking to have studied longer then they've been alive.

Kids nowadays....

So whats going on fellas?

[SoftWT]

Out of respect for my sifu (who happens to be "the" greatest WT sifu in the United States) and all his teachers before him, and out of respect for the TRUE art of WT, I will no longer post on this forum.

I just have a few parting words to say.

AndrewS (I think thats spelled right, if not , you KNOW who you are) is a Snitch.

Where I come from, snitches get their asses kicked, and AndrewS, that goes for you too. If we would have known each other in grade school, you would have had bloody noses and knocked out teeth, because thats what tattletales get.

Since AndrewS did not like what I had to say on this forum, instead of fighting his own battles, this sissy sent an email to my sifu and tried to drag him into a debate he had no knowledge of, nor did he care to be involved in.

What a piece of $hit you are AndrewS.

The rest of you brown-nosing girlie-boys, like the one whose post I am quoting below, dishonor ALL martial arts with silly ploys on words, nit-picking arguments, and just plain IGNORANCE of an art.

And then when a WOMAN gets one on ya, you RUN AND SNITCH to try and silence her and cause even more trouble, like the sissy losers you are.

Let me make something perfectly clear. I am done with words.

Two things I hate: Snitches and bullies. You would not last five minutes in the same room with me as either.

My "smaller and weaker" frame would surprise you.

You are unfaithful and think you have to have a "mixture" of martial arts to be effective, when in reality, you are only feeding an egotistic male tough-guy image to try and impress each other.

In other words, you are prolly so homely you cant get laid so you spend most of your time talking $hit about how much "MMA" you know on forums like this. Who cares? You prolly couldnt fight your way out of a paper bag! Hell, you couldnt beat a WOMAN on a FORUM, sissys!!!! :p ROFLMAO!!!!!

I would LOVE to stay and battle your idiocy some more, for the simple reason that there is hope for everyone; even for the dumbest sonofa*****.

However, instead of encouraging your idiotic facade any further, I will bow out of this forum for the reasons aforementioned, and continue my happy destiny in WT.

So goodbye you losers. :rolleyes:


~Kitten




Man, I leave for a little while and come back to this?!

Has nothing changed?!

It's funny. New people come on board and then try to preach to the choir about how much they know about wing chun...when in fact they don't seem to realize the people they're talking to have studied longer then they've been alive.

Kids nowadays....

So whats going on fellas?

[lawrenceofidaho]

-I will no longer post on this forum.........

-I just have a few parting words to say.............

-there is hope for everyone; even for the dumbest sonofa*****.
Let us hope so.

-L

[Mr Punch]

silly ploys on words, nit-picking argumentsYeah, like talking straight and explaining clearly what you mean eh?! And refusing to answer completely misplaced accusations...?! Those silly little ploys...?! :D

Bye bye nasty little girl.

[Nick Forrer]

Was it something we said?

[Mr Punch]

BTW Soft, if you do come back and are interested in discussing/learning anything try this link. (http://www.edatkd.com/fighting_myths.htm). Near the bottom you'll find:


Male versus Female - Age 18 and up

The percentage is much higher (my addition: than 60% mentioned earlier in the text) with male versus female. This is due to the nature of the attack. Men attack women for the purpose of control and exploitation, such as rape. Going to the ground is typical for these assaults.

For some reason they have altered this. When I copied it from the same site last year it also contained the words: Typically 80% or more. I don't know why they took it out; maybe it was innaccurate, maybe it caused them some kind of problems. Anyway.

[Fajing]

You are unfaithful and think you have to have a "mixture" of martial arts to be effective[/COLOR]


Hey, I resent that! I don't believe this. WING CHUN is the ONLY empty hand style I practice. However, I'm not going to tell everyone else that their art is USELESS, and disreguard what they practice and love. TO EACH HIS/HER OWN. WING CHUN is great for some of us, BUT not for all of us. Peolpe have to be comfortable and feel confident in what they practice/study or what's the point. KITTEN. I'm not trying to dissssss you, but you have to be more REALISTIC. Again, I think WING CHUN is GREAT. It's my favorite, hands down, but to think you can defeat all of these individuals on a forum that you have never met is a little ridiculous. I am sure you are good at what you do, but we are all different as fighters. You must remember that there is always someone BETTER. That's just life! I would never make such a claim as being able to kick anyone's butt on the forum or anywhere else. You never know who you're dealing with. I have to say that from your words and tone, you sound very young. I am glad that you LOVE wing chun. That's great! I hope you become one of the greats. Try not to harbor such ill opinions of everyone. Most come to this forum to broaden their understanding of martial styles and real fighting. When you step in and say that you're the BOMB and can beat whomever comes your way with invincible wing chun, it comes across as ****y. PEACE, and good luck with your training. ;) :D :D :D :D

[anerlich]

Where I come from, snitches get their asses kicked, and AndrewS, that goes for you too. If we would have known each other in grade school,

You sound like you still ARE in grade school, or more accurately, elementary.

[AndrewS]

Interesting response. I e-mailed a link of the thread to her sifu with a nice note suggesting we (WT) don't need any more lineage wars or bad PR. I presume he read the thread and spoke with her.



Out of respect for my sifu (who happens to be "the" greatest WT sifu in the United States)

Hmmm, perhaps this information should be circulated to the rest of the IWTA-NAS? They may have missed the memo. You really aren't doing him any favors by saying that in public.

Andrew

[Liddel]

Ever since i began training in VT 9 years ago, ive tried to put what ive learnt into fighting and into everyday life.

A main point from the VT formula, of being economic with energy use, is one such factor that i try to apply to everyday use.
Some persons here should do the same, stop wasting energy with this BS !

[negativecr33p]

Wow, what is goin on in this thread? Rape, insest, ****phobia....hhhaaa. Okay, now I don't really practice much BJJ, but I'm pretty sure there isn't a correlation between ground fighting and ****sexuality. We aren't talkin about the old gladiators back in Greece who used to rape their opponent after winning for pure humiliation. Fighting is fighting, self defnse is self defense. There's nothing wrong with knowing a little ground game. RAPE will always be an issue with attack, Hell look at the prison system. That is where most rapes occur, and it concerns MEN, NOT WOMEN. This is a forum. We can discuss all kinds of things concerning attack and defense. As far as the origins of Wing Chun go, who the Hell really knows. We didn't live back then. :eek: Chain punching is great. Spinning off 7 punches per second feels AWESOME, but it won't end all confrontations. ;)


Does this thing really censor the word ****sexuality???? That's pretty gay.


Yeah only in america, is that a cuss word. Sheesh.

[negativecr33p]

Out of respect for my sifu (who happens to be "the" greatest WT sifu in the United States) and all his teachers before him, and out of respect for the TRUE art of WT, I will no longer post on this forum.

I just have a few parting words to say.

AndrewS (I think thats spelled right, if not , you KNOW who you are) is a Snitch.

Where I come from, snitches get their asses kicked, and AndrewS, that goes for you too. If we would have known each other in grade school, you would have had bloody noses and knocked out teeth, because thats what tattletales get.

Since AndrewS did not like what I had to say on this forum, instead of fighting his own battles, this sissy sent an email to my sifu and tried to drag him into a debate he had no knowledge of, nor did he care to be involved in.

What a piece of $hit you are AndrewS.

The rest of you brown-nosing girlie-boys, like the one whose post I am quoting below, dishonor ALL martial arts with silly ploys on words, nit-picking arguments, and just plain IGNORANCE of an art.

And then when a WOMAN gets one on ya, you RUN AND SNITCH to try and silence her and cause even more trouble, like the sissy losers you are.

Let me make something perfectly clear. I am done with words.

Two things I hate: Snitches and bullies. You would not last five minutes in the same room with me as either.

My "smaller and weaker" frame would surprise you.

You are unfaithful and think you have to have a "mixture" of martial arts to be effective, when in reality, you are only feeding an egotistic male tough-guy image to try and impress each other.

In other words, you are prolly so homely you cant get laid so you spend most of your time talking $hit about how much "MMA" you know on forums like this. Who cares? You prolly couldnt fight your way out of a paper bag! Hell, you couldnt beat a WOMAN on a FORUM, sissys!!!! :p ROFLMAO!!!!!

I would LOVE to stay and battle your idiocy some more, for the simple reason that there is hope for everyone; even for the dumbest sonofa*****.

However, instead of encouraging your idiotic facade any further, I will bow out of this forum for the reasons aforementioned, and continue my happy destiny in WT.

So goodbye you losers. :rolleyes:


~Kitten

Obviously you are still in grade school, or else you would have realized it is impossible to win an argument with a female no matter what age she is. I guess this just proves going to the man who smacks her around a few times a week is the only way to get her to shut up. Or something.