Why Mma?

[Sifu Darkfist]

What possesed someone to use the redundant phrase Mixed Martial Arts?
Is it something like combined arms warfare?
Excuse me for being niave but i thought martial=(of the military) arts consisted of whatever it took to win the battle.
For example Praying Mantis is the Ultimate mixed martial art when it is understood from its intentional role ie the four ranges. One the long range consisting of weapons and moving kickc or strikes jumping into the opponent ( by the way this is not the exhaustive list for those that want to critique) Two medium range consiting of most kicks all punches gouges and knives etc. number three close range elbows knees head pigua's kau etc. four throws and grappling, most limb breaking or neck breaking occurs in these last two ranges.
so to sum up the point being made, does this not constitute a mixture of fighting techniques from all theories? the fact is this all falls under the heading of MARTIAL ARTS there is no need for the heading mma, unless of course your mixing martial arts with acting such as the WWF etc. or you are mixing it with some highly refined ritual of tea drinking or possibly vodka and orange juice

[Lowlynobody]

Its called mixed martial arts because a lot of the guys who participate in MMA train several arts to cover what they feel is necessary for them to win. e.g tai boxing for stand-up, greco roman for clinch and takedown, and BJJ for ground and submission.

Also in a MMA event the different fighters come from a mixture of different martial arts backgrounds, hence MMA.

[SevenStar]

What possesed someone to use the redundant phrase Mixed Martial Arts?
Is it something like combined arms warfare?
Excuse me for being niave but i thought martial=(of the military) arts consisted of whatever it took to win the battle.
For example Praying Mantis is the Ultimate mixed martial art when it is understood from its intentional role ie the four ranges. One the long range consisting of weapons and moving kickc or strikes jumping into the opponent ( by the way this is not the exhaustive list for those that want to critique) Two medium range consiting of most kicks all punches gouges and knives etc. number three close range elbows knees head pigua's kau etc. four throws and grappling, most limb breaking or neck breaking occurs in these last two ranges.
so to sum up the point being made, does this not constitute a mixture of fighting techniques from all theories? the fact is this all falls under the heading of MARTIAL ARTS there is no need for the heading mma, unless of course your mixing martial arts with acting such as the WWF etc. or you are mixing it with some highly refined ritual of tea drinking or possibly vodka and orange juice


by that definition, pretty much all TMA would be a MMA - the reason this is not the case is because of the definition given to MMA - striking and grappling. mantis has throws, but is predominantly a striking style with little to no groundwork, no? Consequently, in order to be a mixed martial art, it would need a ground component. A traditional chinese mma would be someone who mixed mantis and dog boxing, for example.

[mantis108]

Hi SevenStar,

Depending on the style and lineage, Mantis does have ground work. Not extensive like BJJ but there are ground work. For example, TJPM has at least one form - 7th Zhai Yao that has ground component. My style CCK TCPM, which is a branch of Greater Meihwa Line, also contains 3 forms that have ground component. BTW, you are right about Mantis primary is a strike oriented system. So ground component for the most part is more or less ground and pound rather than going for positional control as far as I have seen in Mantis. Personally, I have been working on the positional control for my mantis style. Others might have different ideas about Mantis ground component. So I will leave that to them.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Sifu Darkfist]

I am happy that this item sparked some debate.
what you all say is true when considering schools that are limited by their instructors amount of martial combat knowledge. However, As many masters from Shandong will confess, the schools of true combatant are extremely diverse. I have personally spent time working on grappling with 7th gen Sun De Yao and his school in QingDao includes all aspects of san da and shui chiao. Not to mention 90 percent of the forms Under Yang Xaio Dongs Lineage (that of Liu Yun Chao) Consist of relentless limb breaking and neck breaking dispatches to the floor including many throws where the leverage is the opponents eye sockets simultaneously firmly griping the scrotum. in fact it is a known fact that O sensei of Aikido traveled to china and observed as well as trained the northern grappling and chin na and joint locks etc in order to put an abruptness in his fighting style.
the point is a real combatant Martial arts system Such as Wu Tang has always been ruled by whatever it takes to dispatch the victim in order to move to the next victim and yes this includes ground fighting. So any school that only spends time teaching forms that are not understood or do not reflect Martial arts for combatant nature is short changing their students.

[Three Harmonies]

Darkfist
May I inquire as to whom you are?
It is funny you mention Yang Shu Ton and these subjects, because I NEVER saw any Shuai / Na nor ground work when I studied with him. As a matter of fact, the overwhleming majority of Wutan players seem to have little if any understanding of these aspects. This was one of my major frustrations with Wutan.
Could you elaborate on this more?? Thanks
Jake :cool:

[Sifu Darkfist]

One cannot expect to show up and enjoy the favor of the creme de la creme of training. In all actuality if you were to consider the judgement of grand master Liu or Great grand master Li Shu Wen this would not be an issue.
many of your forms have four applications per technique I understand that many have short term learned or have been neglected due to skin color or lack of understanding due to the Chinese Paranoia (that is brought out by American action ie the opium wars or the boxer rebellion or more recently the protection of chinas island Taiwan). However,Your understanding of our school is only that of an outside look. So i respectfully beg you to understand that many have trained with us and have failed to spend the amount of time to see the various applications for various reasons. The fact remains that i know you and you Know me. So if there is a question of understanding please relay it to me personally i would consider it an honor.
and i enjoyed your stay with us and hope to see you when you come for Mikes seminar at least with me if not Wutang. I have read your understanding of the mantis system and i am proud to call you Kung fu brother
James

[K.Brazier]

A note for the Pong Lai folks who may read this thread.

Pong Lai Mantis master of Taiwan, Shi Zheng Zhong doesn't agree with the term "China's island."
The name of his Mantis, Pong Lai, and color(Green) signify his willingness to take part in a fight for and Independant country.

[Sifu Darkfist]

No offense was meant sir. I am just a realist and as a realist i see the Historical futility for the Taiwan to resist and lose millions only to taken by China anyway.
My master and His family lived in Taiwan as well after the banishment by Mao Se Dong. If the PRC is not resisted i dont think Taiwans infrastructure will be molested it will change peaceably as Hong Kong. Unfortunatly American public oppinion is that of stay out of civil disputes between the two. therefore in reality Taiwan will go it alone and as a military Historian and tactical scholar i see no future in resisting the worlds second most powerful military and the worlds largest by far. I am sorry if I offended you. Please forgive my irreverance.

[Three Harmonies]

James
Wutan gave me a solid foundation in these arts, and all in all were the reason I met my current teacher Hu Xi Lin. For that I am eternally grateful. My time with Yang Shu Ton has always been a fond memory, and always will be! I consider all my Wutan friends my kung fu brothers! Keep training.
Cheers
Jake :cool:

[shalabaji]

Darkfist,

your comments on gong fu are very interesting, and you seem to have some views worthy of consideration, but your take on the Taiwan China (Mainland?) issue sucks.

Please keep it relevant to the topic at hand. Of course you were just replying to Brazier's comments, but I don't think there's any need for this either.

Get back to MMA and keep this an interesting instead of politically-fueled jargon thread

peace

[Sifu Darkfist]

Darkfist,

your comments on gong fu are very interesting, and you seem to have some views worthy of consideration, but your take on the Taiwan China (Mainland?) issue sucks.

Please keep it relevant to the topic at hand. Of course you were just replying to Brazier's comments, but I don't think there's any need for this either.

Get back to MMA and keep this an interesting instead of politically-fueled jargon thread

peace

I like your name by the way, and your right this is not the place for such political arguments i apologize to everyone for the political rants.

[Knifefighter]

The term MMA was originally coined because these competitions allowed for competitors from any and all styles of martial arts/combative sports. Over the years, certain styles (i.e. boxing, muay thai, wrestling, BJJ) were shown to be most effective for these competitons. These days, to be successful in these venues, fighters must practice most, if not all of these styles to consistently win these competitions.

MMA today has a different conotation than it did when it was originally brought from Brazil (where it is known as vale tudo, or "anything goes") and made popular in the rest of the world.