Right or Wrong?

[hskwarrior]

ok, here's the scene.......today i am training my group of students at the park. right after class these 3 girls walked up to me and my students in a hurry and said they thought this guy was following them and he was acting kind of crazy as well as called these little 8 or 9 year olds the "N" word for no appearant reason.

Now i had the girls stand next to me and we would protect them. as the guy passed by, and you could see they were pretty scared, he didn't look at me but he started to mean mug the little girls. needless to say i had a few choice words with him and then he went on his way.

the thing is normally i would have just floored him, but i didn't see it happen to them, so i decided to see what happens afterwards. the guy was talking hella loud to himself, and i didn't want to interupt so i figured he was just crazy. but then he gave them an evil look. so, if i would have dropped him would i have been wrong?

yes or no, i want to hear your reasons why. and oh, pls forget the legal aspects of it out since self defense in my book shouldn't have to go to court. no cops, no nothing. only, if you were in my shoes what would you have done.

watch all the psycho's come out on this one.


hsk

[Judge Pen]

Assuming you can forget the legal aspects of it, you did the right thing by doing nothing. You were not threatend at that time. They weren't either. Mean looks and intimidation alone do not justify "flooring" someone.

[mantis108]

Well, I think you did the right thing by staying put. You achieved the goal of protecting the girls. Really, there is not need to escalate the situation. As a private citizen, it would be reasonable and wise not to put yourself in a situation that would bring legal ramifications. The truth is he could use legal aid (your tax money) to sue you for excessive force used causing him injuries. Lawyers are good at that. Self defense or not, it serves no particular purpose to "drop the guy" other than smoothing your ego IMHO. Now, if you are concern about the guy might further threaten or harm anyone, you should notify the cops (give the descriptions of the guy) or issue a warning through neighbourhood watch. Remember western societies' governments frown on vigilante.

Street smart self defense to me is to never put yourself at risk while protecting others. The guy could have been a drug user and acting strangely because of that. People like that are unpredictable. So it's not worth it to risk accidental injuries. He might even be a blood borne disease carrier. Anyway, you did the right thing if you ask me.

Regards

Mantis108

[TenTigers]

One, you did the right thing-you don't know him, and what he's holding. He sounds like a head-case.
You might have escorted the girls home, talked to their family, found out if there was a history with this guy, and in this way the famiily is forewarned.(forewarned is forearmed) and can either follow it up and make a report, or take care of business in any other way.
If you had dropped him, -you were in the park, which means it is an area that you frequent, which also means he might frequent it, which adds up to the inevitability of you guys crossing paths again in the future, and you might not see it coming the next time. This guy might live or be close by your school, your home, your people. You did the right thing.
Now, put on your Ninja mask and go out there and finish it. :cool:

[TonyM.]

Agreed. But if he so much as twitched I would have dropped him like a hot potato.

[Jason Martell]

It's possible the mean look, was actually a look of confusion. why are all these people standing like this looking at me. It's possible he's one of those guys from the war a long time ago who just alks to himself a lot, and the girls mistakenly described the situation to you incorrectly. It's also possible the kids were doing something they weren't supposed to be doing, so the man was yelling at them.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

maybe it never happened and you're just trolling a psychological question to test the people who perform violent hobbies for innate pathological quirks that could indicate a dangerous person.

[hskwarrior]

sorry, i have been busy getting ready for our "Self Help For the Elderly" annual charity drive but now i can answer back.

To most of you who think i did the right thing by not dropping that guy, i appreciate your comments. i may have a hot temper, still sifu has always taught me to think before i act.

however, i am not "trolling" as some may think. it actually happened just as i ended my class. my students and i were walking towards my car when 3 little girls very appearantly frightened and asking for help. when i asked what was wrong they said someone was following them saying bad things to them as well as calling them "niggarss". they were only about 8-9 yrs old.

with all of the kidnappings of kids, and child abuse going on how could i turn my back on these kids. naturally i started to get steamed because no one should mess with kids. Regardless. so after telling the kids to stick by me, the guy happened to walk right passed us. he was talking to himself so i thought he just may be kinda crazy, and the kids could have had great imaginations. as the guy walked by he started mean mugging them, no one else. that said to me maybe the little girls were right.

Now, i didn't say anything to him until he started to stare down the girls. then i spoke to him and he just kept on going. that moment i wanted to drop him because a grown up should never harrass little kids. but i didn't do anything but protect the little ones and that was the end of that.

so how could i be trolling for answers as one has put it. all i wanted to know was would anyone else have dropped that guy. what if it was your kids that this person did this to? what then?


frank the troller

[northernArts]

First I think you did the right thing. No need to use violence - you protected the kids and kept them safe. Job well done. No need to hit the guy your response was appropriate for the situation. Even if we assume there would be no legal consequences I still don't think you should hit the person unless he physically attacks you or the girls. For one thing you could develop bad habits that could destroy your life in another situation where witnesses/police are a factor. Also you could scare the kids and traumatize them. And you might want the police involved if the homeless guy is truly dangerous. Then again I don't know you so maybe you would just take him out anyway.

What if it was my kids? Well I don't have any so I can't really say. I hope I would have the sense not to use force unless it was a last resort. I wouldn't want my kids to learn from that example. If it was my kids I would use a cell phone to call police. They take a dim view of homeless skels that threaten kids - good possibility there would be some street justice - he hits his head trying to get in the police car because the door is closed :D

If the guy had done anything physical to the kids or yourself I'm sure you would have done the appropriate thing in the circumstance - deliver a smack down.

I'm not in southern kung fu but I came in to this thread because it was a general question.

[hskwarrior]

thanks for your reply northern arts.

i wanted to see it for myself first before taking any actions. who knows, maybe those girls could have been harrassing him first and if i gave him a beat down i would have been totally at fault for not accessing the situation calmly.

it's hard to say what i would do if it were my kids (i don't have any tho), because when it comes to protecting my family i naturally do it with a ferocity that sometimes i have no controll over.

for instance on more than one occasion i came to the aid of my younger brother when people were messing with him. when i came outside there were 20 of them but i would have taken a beat down by them all over my family. however, they were scared as hell that one man was ready to fight 20 guys.

another time i tried to protect my family was my older brother called me down to his job to have family with him because they planned on attacking "SCABS" while they were on strike. that night i noticed a car speeding down the street and the passenger door opened up and i saw someone bend down in the front seat. i knew they had a gun so i ran to our car because we had a gun too. but in the frenzy i couldn't find it so i grabbed the baseball bat and scrambled over to my brother just as the guy pulled out a shotgun. then he kocked it and aim the shotgun at me and all i could think about was taking that guys head off. the shotgun didn't phase me because of "the moment" but my brothers friend tackled me before sheet happened.

anyway, i feel stongly about the safety of my family members, and would gladly put my life of the line for them. needless to say, my older brothers friends thought i was crazy, but definetly down!!

so, thanks northern arts,


hsk

[bigdoing]

You should have told the bum " hey you crazy mf'ing BUM. get the f out the park and dont f with little kids you f'ed up war freak, go back to vietnam, or go do smack or have another nervous breakdown because your faimly is all a bunck of crack heads your dirty sheet,....what? what?" then when the bum runs up on you f'him hup in front of the little girls, hold him down and let the little childs kick him in the balls and call him cracker and spit on his dirty bum face and then take pictures of you and the bum and the kids like that iraqi war pictures with the iraqi and then make a tshirt out of it and sell it on ebay for $20.00"

[hskwarrior]

yeah, yeah, huh huh, kick em' in the balls,.....uh, he said balls huh huh!


i should taken $20 from him and then make him take me out to lunch and order everything on the menu except "thank you, come again!"

oh, well, a little too late now! ****, what was i thinking!? i could have gotten a free lunch!


hsk :D

[X-Warrior]

Words are only words, you were absolutely correct not to use any physical force. To word threats I always reply with words.

And even if you are physically threatened, you should chose the methods to defend yourself or disable your opponent(s). Often very little can do a lot more than you'd think. For example one night I was attacked by a robber in downtown, the guy wanted money from me. I just ignored him, walked on, replying I don't have any. I didn't even stop. I then noticed that he was following me and soon hecaught up to me. He then grabbed the bag I was carrying on my shoulder, trying to pull it off of me and said: 'Didn't you hear me I want some money?'. At this point I turned around very quick and hit my bag out of his hands and stood there looking into his eyes suggesting he doesn't want to mess with me any further. My bag flew out of his hands and this shocked him, forze him completely. He stood there speachless for a second, then turned around and left without saying a word.

Often it's not how much you fight back but the fact that you fought back is what matters. Very little can do amazingly much. As martial artists we often don't see this because we don't get to try out our skills everyday like in any other occupation, and we don't realize how much skills we really have. I thought through my attack many times through the years and I always arrived to the same conclusion. I have done exactly what needed to be done: no one got hurt, I didn't get robbed and the robber learned his lesson too, to think again next time he tries to rob someone, he might not get away that easy. I think that is how you'll remember your incident too HSK: you've done exatcly what needed to be done.

-X-

[Infrazael]

My Sifu onced asked me why I'm learning kung fu. I said to learn how to fight. He said to fight, you need to hurt the other person, because if you don't, he's going to hurt you.

ALWAYS hit first. However, don't overdo it. . . . . . which you could've done in this case, so I think you did good. However if he made any potentially dangerous physical movements then I think it would be a good idea to drop the guy.

[cbishop]

"words are just words.." sorry. don't mean to be arguementative, but
this is a really naieve way to approach this. words are very powerful indeed.

"maybe those girls could have been harrassing him first and if i gave him a beat down i would have been totally at fault for not accessing the situation calmly."

to some extent, i think that this is the case EVERY time that we feel we or some
one else has been wronged. good reason to "judge not" lest you be wrong.

immediately the first thing to do is protect the weak (obviously you did).
secondly forgiveness shouldn't be an after thought. it makes you angry to
see children hurt, but jacking the guy up won't prevent it from happening
again. lastly, if you have time or feel so inclined, i don't think it's out of line
to pull the guy aside and find out what's up with him. see if he need someone
to talke to, something to eat, or directions back to the halfway house.

at the end of one of my favourite hung ga movies (challenge of the masters),
gordon liu defeats his opponent, and instead of totally crushing him decides
to win his heart instead. this way doesn't satisfy the ego in quite the same
way, but it will make you feel good.

but.. everybody wants to jack a guy up from time to time.. better this guy
than your best friend in a sparring session right?

[X-Warrior]

Cbishop. Why is it a naive approach it. Would you EVER physically beat up anyone who throws dirty words at you? I suggested HSK that he did the right thing in replying the guy with words instead of beating him up. I said use words against words, I didn't say words aren't as powerful as a fist is. Yet in my beliefs - take me wrong on that - but I would not hit anyone who just throws words at me. Mouth kung fu is just mouth kung fu.

Can you explain what's naive in that?

-X-

[cbishop]

sorry x guy,

i didn't mean to insult you at all. of course i wouldn't assault someone
who was just cursing our shouting at me.

now.. would i jack a guy up if he verbally threatened to harm my child??
yeah.. no doubt.

my remark isn't really limited to just this situation. but, "words are just words"
could be construed as truth, it's hardly the entire truth. wars have been fought
and people have died over "just words". suffice it to say that BECAUSE not
everyone shares your opinion on that subject.. it's not true.

if YOU use "just words" against someone who's not forgiving, and doesn't fear the
law, and doesn't think "words are just words", then guess what? all the sudden
words are not just words.

[hskwarrior]

when it comes to words, or even crazy stares, one should realize no one is being physically hurt by them. In the past i used to hate people staring at me and would get in their face-shouting "What the Fock are you looking at?" but my sifu got a hold of me and made me realize a few things by asking me a few simple questions when it came to words being said, or mean mugging.

1) Did they physically harm you, or your family in any way?
2) Did they steal money from you?
3) Then why are you letting someone staring at you get you pished off?!

As martial artists, we must not only learn how to protect ourselves physically, but mentally as well. We cannot just fly off the handle anymore over simple things such as an insult, or someone dogging you. Once again, we are martial artist--people who train to fight on a daily basis, which hopefully gives us the advantage over a regular guy you run into on the street. and it is our responsibilty to chose the right time to use the gifts our sifu's gave to us.

still, at this point if I were to fight a guy over words, then even if i kicked his goddarn arse----he still won. how you may ask, because he pushed the right buttons and you responded the he wanted you too, just like a little puppet.

Now, when those girls came to me for help, the reason i didn't kick his ass was because of the way my sifu raised me. I knew not to instantly believe these little girls, but at the same time i was watching for signs in that guy hoping the girls weren't lying. but the way he looked at them as he passed by made me say something to the effect of " COme Fock with these girls now, and become a human wooden dummy for my students to practice their techniques on!---something like that.

anyways, words should never take you out of your element. so what he called you a "****!" so what if he said "your mother wears combat boots to church!" if you're not and she doesn't, then why worry about it. he didn't hit you, steal your money or hurt any family members.

oh, well, who wants to fight now!!!!!!!!! :mad:


hsk :D :rolleyes:

[7th gen yang]

All I can Say Is "You Better Knock Me Out" :)

[hskwarrior]

oh man!!!!!!! i thought you knew Choy Lee Fut is known for our one hitter quitters, man!!!!!!!! ;)

however, i do like my kwa sow chop! beware there dirty dude! :eek:



:D

[7th gen yang]

I didn't say I'd let you kill me :eek: but I'd let you try :D

[hskwarrior]

good sheet my good fellow, how nice of you to accomidate me like that :)

I promise, it will be swift and painless. :cool:


:o sorry, that's my evil twin speaking to you and not me :eek:

[7th gen yang]

Great scott Batman!! We have more Evil Villians to Break! :D

[hskwarrior]

lmao :D :eek: :D :eek: :D :eek: :D :eek: :D

[hskwarrior]

check this out.


you guys know about the guy i was referring to in this thread? well, after the class i was teaching today one of the local homeless folk approached me to tell me that the guy who was harrassing the little girls is actually in jail now because he was harassing a lady cop and was arrested.

what goes around comes around! isn't that funny!


hsk

[David Jamieson]

by averting violence, you are doing the right thing.


"maybe those girls could have been harrassing him first and if i gave him a beat down i would have been totally at fault for not accessing the situation calmly."


worth considering to be sure and yet anotehr reaons not to resort to violence.

and remember "violence is the last refuge of incompetence"

the above phrase is worthy of note.

[hskwarrior]

Right! :D