video of me doing bung bo! [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Chief Fox

08-06-2005, 09:42 PM

That's interesting. May I ask who taught you this or where this form comes into your style/training? There are extra pauses (ie after the first mantis stance) that's not "normally" done as far as I am aware. Other than that the form is more or less the same with HK Sevenstars.

Regards

Mantis108
Hi, are you talking about the double backfist?

I learned the form from Sifu Nelson Horton who studied 7star Praying Mantis with the late Sifu David Chen. I think he studied in Hawaii. Not sure. This is one of the first forms that I learned.

I over emphasized the pauses between the movements because I'm recording the form for reference. I'm sure that my demonstration of the form probably doesn't have the correct essence of mantis in quickness.

I did a search on the web and found another video of someone doing bung bo. Here's the link: http://www.angelfire.com/film/mantiskungfu/bungbo.mov
Not trying to brag or anything, but I like mine better. Even though I don't like how this person does the form, he does have the same double chamber after the first mantis stance.

I do want to perform the form correctly but this is how we do it at my school. Could you go into a bit more detail about the pauses? Thanks for the input.

maybe I'll re-record the form at full speed so you can better idea of how I would normally do it. Thanks again.

K.Brazier

08-08-2005, 04:26 AM

YKW,
Sounds like you are describing the Taiwan version.
May I ask who you learned it from?

Chief,
In HK when Haung Hanxun wrote a book on this form, I am guessing he may be your grand teacher or great grandteacher, he said that the form is performed in a single breath.
Seems hard right?
What he means is that there is no chance to think about inhaling and exhaling like you would in some other styles.
At least this is how it was expalined to me by my shifu, Shi Zhengzhong in Taiwan.

So, for performing the entire from it is not correct to perform bao zhou-hugging the waist, throughout the form.

So why do you do it that way?

In the teaching of single techniques of this Mantis form, the shifu will use bao zhou after a single techniqe for the purpose of repeating that technique over and over.

So it seems likely that someone in your past lineage spent a lot of time drilling the 1st two techniques over and over.

About critique of you yourself:
In the second right punch of the 1st road you deliver the punch very high as opposed to delivering it from your waist. In other words, the elbow floats in an upward ark as opposed to a straight line from the waist.

Why should the hand shoot forth from the waist?
In this move your right hand should have jerked the opponents right arm to your waist, thus making it difficult for him to defend as you send forth your right punch.
Anyway, that is one way of looking at it.

Looks like you are having fun, keep up the good work.

Kevin

K.Brazier

08-08-2005, 04:29 AM

Chief,
Just looked very close at the form.
I retract my statement of Huang Hanxun being in your lineage.

This form has enough small differences to show it is not the school HK 7* of Luo Guangyu.

Oso

08-08-2005, 06:42 AM

CF, I don't know differences in lineage and such as my kung fu uncle Kevin does but I'll ask a question and make one comment:

as you start back on the 2nd road, what stances are you supposed to be using?
hill climbing or something else?

in either event, you're not quite getting the back foot rooted and therefore not generating good power, no matter which step you are supposed to be using.

just a thought, bro...kudos again.

GunnedDownAtrocity

08-08-2005, 06:53 AM

you got a purdy mouth.

i mean yard.

you got a pretty package.

yard.

Chief Fox

08-08-2005, 08:48 AM

WOW! Thank you all for your comments. All except the purdy mouth/nice package one.

I'm not sure I know where to start.

YouKnowWho: I must admit that I don't always think about practical application while doing or learning a form. This is something that I need to focus on a bit more.

K.Brazier: You're absolutely right about my elbow how it's going too high and how it should be at my waist. I'll make the adjustment.

Oso: You may be reffering to a different part of the form but the downward elbow and the rolling backfist are both "supposed" to be in a hill climbing stance. In my video they are not.

As I look closer and closer at the video I see a lot of little things that are very sloppy. Most of all, my stances. As in very little rooting at all.

I'm also starting to think that video is a good training tool. Actually seeing how you do a form so you can quickly understand what you're doing wrong and make adjustments.

Thanks again everyone. The only thing I can say is, it's a good thing that I have the rest of my life to work on this stuff.

I'll try to post a revision of this form soon.

Oso

08-08-2005, 09:42 AM

Akhilleus

08-08-2005, 09:59 AM

Nice form...though I was a little dissapointed...from the thread title I thought the vid was going to involve you and forum member bung bo...with the De Niro av...

Chief Fox

08-08-2005, 10:53 AM

CF, yea, I travel 4 or 9 hours to train with my teachers and always video myself doing whatever they taught me...and them if they let me... so I can refer back when I go over it again...long live video!

I was talking about the first couple of moves after doing the arm break/drag at the very end of the first road...well, it's the end for us, it might be the beginning of the 2nd for others.

it's the left hooking hand w/ right hammer followed by gou lou cai movements.

Ok, I think I know where you're at.
- the left hooking hand is a half horse stance. Horse stance with an open left foot.
- the hammer is a bow stance.
- shuffle/stomp into a left cat stance with a right hooking hand capture with a left back fist.

I look at that video and now the only thing that I look at is my lame stances. I'll be using the video more and more from now on. Thanks again for all the input. :D

Oso

08-08-2005, 11:17 AM

Ok, I think I know where you're at.
- the left hooking hand is a half horse stance. Horse stance with an open left foot.
- the hammer is a bow stance.
- shuffle/stomp into a left cat stance with a right hooking hand capture with a left back fist.

I look at that video and now the only thing that I look at is my lame stances. I'll be using the video more and more from now on. Thanks again for all the input. :D

yep, that was the place.

i see that it is closer to half open now that you mention it. No wonder I thought you were between a horse and a hill climbing :)

i was taught to do that move w/ a horse. but it's all very transitory.

we do our arm breaking facing 'downroad' towards the opponent from a void stance (versus sideways like I see most do). In the two person we are grasping their left arm which has punched to our belly and they hammer towards the head with their right hand-->my left hand gua's (horse) then hooks and pulls down as I give them a hammer back (shifting to hill climbing from horse)--> they gua the hammer with their right and punch me in the face with their left and I gou lou cai in off of that attack to right punch them as I step towards them in hill climbing.

YKW: I've never had a problem aiming or delivering power with that kick. I've never really applied it exactly as it's shown in bung bu but have done it often and successfuly in clinching situations. I don't know that I would really recommend it for long range, or even medium range, when you don't have contact with your opponent....Is that what you are saying????

mantis108

08-08-2005, 11:38 AM

Hi, are you talking about the double backfist?

I was talking about the Bao Shou as Kevin mentioned. There are at least 2 times of this in your form. Both are before the left inserting palm and right filling punch sequence. Looks like your interpretation of it is a double backfist application? I agreed with Kevin that this is not done in most of the Bengbu version that we know of. Frankly, this is the first time I have seen it done this way.

I learned the form from Sifu Nelson Horton who studied 7star Praying Mantis with the late Sifu David Chen. I think he studied in Hawaii. Not sure. This is one of the first forms that I learned.

Hawaii? I know a David Cheng who passed away couple of years ago. He was from my lineage (CCK TCPM) not Sevenstar PM. The form that you have is certainly not from CCK TCPM. So, it's properly from one of the HK Sevenstar lineage.

I over emphasized the pauses between the movements because I'm recording the form for reference. I'm sure that my demonstration of the form probably doesn't have the correct essence of mantis in quickness.

Well, you know IMHO the reason why mantis is fast is that there are not extra movements when carrying out a combination. Practically, each move is an attack and each reinforces the other to from a combination. In some older styles of mantis you won't find the hands chambering at the waist at all during the form.

I did a search on the web and found another video of someone doing bung bo. Here's the link: http://www.angelfire.com/film/mantiskungfu/bungbo.mov
Not trying to brag or anything, but I like mine better. Even though I don't like how this person does the form, he does have the same double chamber after the first mantis stance. I do want to perform the form correctly but this is how we do it at my school. Could you go into a bit more detail about the pauses? Thanks for the input.

The link isn't working for me. So I can't tell. Well, Bengbu especially this version that is know as Yantai Bengbu or Da Bengbu is quite while spread. It is possible that different styles and lineages within the system have their own ideas about how it should be done. Personally, I don't believe the double chamber in any Tanglang form is correct. It is going against the original theory rather than complimenting it IMHO. But then that's just me. I think Kevin's input is good so I will go with that.

maybe I'll re-record the form at full speed so you can better idea of how I would normally do it. Thanks again.

Video is a great tool for learning MA. So by all means do share your re-recording. Thanks for the share.

Warm regards

Robert (Mantis108)

Oso

08-08-2005, 12:07 PM

With the left arm extend like in the form, I have to assume the form designer's original intention was for long or medium range and not for clinching range. Even the long or medium range, the left hand can reach much further than the right kick behind the left leg. So if your left hand can hit on your opponent's head (I don't know how much power can be generated from that back palm) then your left leg cannot reach your opponent's knee. Or your right kick can reach to your opponent's knee then your left hand will pass your opponent's head. The left arm is for "long range" but the right kick is for "short range" that make this move not very effective.

This remind me a move in TKD form that you deliver a side kick then followed by an elbow strike. Does not make much sense.

i agree...I was just talking about that rear cross kick itself and not necessarily in the context of the form.

in our set we are aiming for the groin with the left hand and the near or fore leg with the kick. In that instance the opponent is very close and the arm is going for a medium range target and the leg for a short range target so the difference in length of limb is necessary for that technique.

**but Kevin may correct me on that**

having said that, it's not one I'm going to stick in my toolbox for free sparring

one of the things I do in a clinch is attack the ankles and knees w/ short kicks. I've had people try to shuck past me and been able to land that short cross kick well enough to stall them long enough for me to square back up or even toss them. i'll even say I'm pretty good at it :D and get most of my dumps and throws setting up this way.

K.Brazier

08-08-2005, 12:42 PM

The odd back kick.
1st move of 2nd road.
In not all schools is it called bei ti becuase not all schools consider it a back kick.

Funny, I have seen this type of move applied in Aikido, it may even be the exact same move.
My sparring partner, Mike Selin, who trained Aikido, and I one day were exchanging moves of our styles.
Wow! I said, we have this same move.

Chief,
It is hard to visualize in the form because the way you do it everything happens on a single line.
The back hand with "back kick" and "horse stance double sealing hands" move that follow it are applied to angles relative to the opponent for the purpose of pulling him off his center line. either pulling him forward or backwards as the situation dictates.

Chief Fox

08-08-2005, 12:58 PM

K.Brazier

08-08-2005, 01:09 PM

Hi Folks,
here is a vid clip of the takedown near the end of the from.
This is the Taiwan version so it is different from how Chief performs it.

This clip, an excerpt from my shaolin babu lien huan video, is in 3 parts.

1. kao da.
The 1st training method. The striker applies every ounce of power he has and the srikee counters the force to remain standing. That is the ideal anyway, sometimes the strikee falls, but he should learn to apply himself so he does not fall.
The purpose of this method is to feel the power and to have a chance to deliver the power.

2. The strikee has a poor stance and falls.
This is a specific stage so that they learn and feel the falls.

3. hand methods
learning how to get into position to actually apply the throw.

Though the vid is of a Shaolin form this is a Mantis training method. BTW, the music messed up when I made quicktime clip, the vid music itself is cool.

http://www.rochesterkungfu.com/multimedia/dengta.mov

Oso

08-08-2005, 02:13 PM

Voted coolest music ever on a martial arts instructional tape by 6 out of 7 martial artists world wide

If Kevin still has them available - buy one. It's the best video I've ever seen.

You'll get tons of information and drills not to mention the solo and two person versions of the set.

/plug

mantis108

08-08-2005, 02:56 PM

I agreed 120%, Oso. Kevin should consider putting it on DVD with a better label and packaging.

echo /plug ;)

Warm regards

Mantis108

David Jamieson

08-11-2005, 07:43 AM

right click and save target as in stead of opening the link.
You'll be able to dl the mov file.

Oso

08-11-2005, 07:59 AM

YKW, I too am very curious about 'waist chopping throw'

I've seen it in a plum flower version of White Ape Steals Peach and in Bung Bo.

The mechanics work but getting into correct position to execute them would be overly problematic, IMHO

Also, a very agile person could use 'crane hopping' type foot work to extract themselves from your leg....and it's not terribly hard to see the counter throw from the person who is being 'waist chopped'.

I wonder if the waist chop is meant to attack and bruise or rupture the spleen.
IF you pull their left arm accross and keep the legs from shifting then the abdomen gets very tight right over the spleen. It does not really take all that hard a hit to bruise the spleen.

but, i've only been playing with this move a year or so...so I could be wrong in my observation.

I concur completely about using a double gua to open the lower gate for a leg grab.

Chief Fox

08-11-2005, 08:54 AM

Excuse me Chief Fox, direct linking to that site is not allowed. Can you tell us how to find the site within Angelfire?

thanks.
If you go here: http://www.angelfire.com/film/mantiskungfu/

There's a link to the video. If you can't link to it, just paste the URL in your address bar.

Oso

08-11-2005, 09:15 AM

Chris, you obviously have more medical knowledge than I do so I'll basically defer to you.

however, I know from personal experience that you can strike the area over the spleen and cause enough pain to slow someone down and long term damage.

varying mileage and all that.

you have to go through the overlying costal cage anyway

i guess you're talking about the ribs? what if it's a transfer of impact from the blow to the rib to the spleen?

it's not like he's gonna have spontaneous shutdown of the immune system and die of an infection (sorry - just being a wise azz)

:) no worries on the wise azz bit...but...I think that bruised or partially ruptured spleens could be the fact behing some supposed 'dim mak' techniqes. same thing for a shot to the liver or kidney that was hard enough to bruise them...the bruising could impede the function of the organ enough to cause sickness, or even more remotely death.

and thus legends are born ;)

mantis108

08-11-2005, 11:13 AM

Technically, there is no such a term in older Quanpu (boxing manuscripts) of Tanglang. If it is mentioned, it would be within the application collums. I believe the original name of the move is Tanglang Yaobu Tingshen (mantis sweeping steps straightening the body). This is of course within the Greater Meihwa Line tradition.

The so-called waist chop IMHO is done nowadays in the manner of Beng Dian Bien Yu Huan (crashing dotting transforming into Jabe Ring). In essence, it is a variation of Yu Huan Shou (Jabe Ring Hand). The focus is shifted to the palm that chops down at the waist while the original name of the move suggest the footwork is key.

Waist chop was a form of capital punishment in ancient China. It is to cut the person in half by the waist. So in the waist chop move, the intention is to "snap" the person or rather the rooting ability into halves thus cause him to fall or risk injuring the waist muscles. The cutting palm in the move is auxiliary not primary. Now the Sevenstar Line has always been big on their Iron palm ability. This could be the reason why some people in their line advocate the focus on the cutting palm within the move IMHO.

Just some thoughts to share.

Mantis108

Oso

08-11-2005, 11:40 AM

shirkers1

08-11-2005, 12:39 PM

Robert,

Great! Thanks for the insight.

So, in the meihwa line application the technique is basically sweeping or posting the leg and then creating the off balance by pulling on the left arm accross the body?????

makes sense if so, I have not seen yet how the 'waist chop' adds to the off balance in any way.

interestingly enough, in the two person for our Bung Bu the bung side never gets to complete the 'waist chop' as the movement is interupted by the actions of the ling side and you have to abort the attack to defend.

FTR, my speculation on 'spleen busting' is just some of my musings about the reality behind so called 'dim mak' striking.

I know in our line we use the "cutting palm" as more of a push. While your crossing the body up you're pushing or using a hitting push at the waist to aid in the cutting throw.

Judge Pen

08-11-2005, 12:46 PM

Interesting. I have a similar technique in one of my forms (a bird form of all things), and I never thought of it the way Robert described.

Oso

08-11-2005, 12:49 PM

Mark, exactly where on the waist and in what direction are you guys pushing?

that makes more sense then just striking if the throw is the primary objective.

thanks,

Matt

shirkers1

08-11-2005, 01:10 PM

Okay let me envision the set in my head here.. There is actually a couple in the set.

The hit is on the upper pelvis or hip, right on the bone. When you hit that part things tend to move, instead of hitting higher on the gut where on some people could be nice and smooshy. ;) The strike on the hip like that is nice, we like to do that waist diving palm as well, where you shoot down into a low horse while striking down on the hip in a down angle.

During the second line after the double hand grab pull back into a horse stance the oponent punches with his left hand. You intercept with your left hand and shuffle forward pulling his left arm across while your left leg traps behind his right leg as you pull with the left hand you push uprooting him on a left angle over your trapping leg..

On the 4th line after the claw the opponent blocks the claw and you clean or grab from underneath with your left hand and pull across and down while you shoot your left leg out 7 * stance trapping his leg and you hit/push striking motion on a left angle sending him over your tripping leg. Depending on your height is what angle you would be striking in.. I hope that makes sense.

We'll do this where we have both right legs out, opponent strikes rh, we intercept rh and pull in and down while punching with the lh. The opponent intercepts the lh strike with his lh and we step into a deep 7* trapping his lead right leg and pulling his left arm across and down in an x fashion while still holding on to his right arm. from there you pull lh and shoot forward with your right hand cutting the waist. We have a few drills for this cutting waist that are really fun to play down the line. It's real sticky and you get to bang arms a lot.

mantis108

08-11-2005, 01:52 PM

Robert,

Great! Thanks for the insight.

So, in the meihwa line application the technique is basically sweeping or posting the leg and then creating the off balance by pulling on the left arm accross the body?????

makes sense if so, I have not seen yet how the 'waist chop' adds to the off balance in any way.

interestingly enough, in the two person for our Bung Bu the bung side never gets to complete the 'waist chop' as the movement is interupted by the actions of the ling side and you have to abort the attack to defend.

FTR, my speculation on 'spleen busting' is just some of my musings about the reality behind so called 'dim mak' striking.

You are most welcome, my friend. :) Yeah, that's why the counter has to be quick to avoid getting the waist chop move being done on you (being off balance is the end of the road pretty much). You see that in the Ponglai Ling Bengbu form that waist chop is countered by the Xiao Chan Si (small skill reeling) wrist lock on both occasions. BTW, if you have seen your Shiye's Mimen Lanjie (in the Taiwan TV show or his instruction video), you would have a better view of the Waist Chop IMHO.

Warm regards

Robert

Oso

08-11-2005, 02:38 PM

higher on the gut where on some people could be nice and smooshy.

hey!!! I resemble that remark..... :mad:

;)
:)

gotta get to class, will respond more later.

-N-

08-11-2005, 03:03 PM

Wow... jumping in late here. I haven't been on this forum lately.

Chief Fox, this is basically the sequence to Bung Bo as done by HK lineages. The movements, details, and timing are different from how I was taught.

YouKnowWho, you learned Bung Bo from Brendan Lai? This was in a seminar, or you were a student of his? When did you learn from him?

Re - the back kick vs. front kick at the end of the 1st line.... we do the kick in back but it is not done upright and short range like that. Most people I have seen do the kick as in this clip. That is not how Brendan Lai taught the movement.

Re - the leaning when doing the fanning motion. Brendan Lai taught to lean towards the opponent, not away from.

Re - waist chop. As I was taught, the primary emphasis is to throw. The right hand creates tension in the opponent to facilitate the throw. In actual application, the footwork engages the opponent's footwork deeply. Most times I see it done too shallow.

N.

shirkers1

08-11-2005, 03:07 PM

Re - waist chop. As I was taught, the primary emphasis is to throw. The right hand creates tension in the opponent to facilitate the throw. In actual application, the footwork engages the opponent's footwork deeply. Most times I see it done too shallow.

N.

N yes like I said shoot that leg in there deeep, like upper thigh to thigh. Your knee past his. :) This is very important for the trap.

-N-

08-11-2005, 03:08 PM

The hit is on the upper pelvis or hip, right on the bone. When you hit that part things tend to move, instead of hitting higher on the gut where on some people could be nice and smooshy. ;) The strike on the hip like that is nice, we like to do that waist diving palm as well, where you shoot down into a low horse while striking down on the hip in a down angle.
We hit the waist, not the pelvic bone. I think in a contest between pelvic bone and hand bones, pelvic bone wins. For the non-iron palmed among us, anyway.

N.

btw, sorry if I repeat what others have written.. I just found this mega long topic, and have done a quick scan through.

shirkers1

08-11-2005, 03:12 PM

We hit the waist, not the pelvic bone. I think in a contest between pelvic bone and hand bones, pelvic bone wins. For the non-iron palmed among us, anyway.

.

Noted, might I add I've seen it done with a fist as well and that is aimed a little higher on the hip like N says. Either way I think it's purpose is served, it just depends on what you're going for. One is a hit to a softer target combined with a throw and the other is a hit to a harder target that gives more umph to the throw.

-N-

08-11-2005, 03:18 PM

Re - strike vs. push in the waist chop performed as throw.

You can use a fast strike to the soft gooshy parts rather than a push to the solid parts. That way, your waist chop is faster, requires less effort, and hands are in better position for followup motions. The opponent's reaction throws him instead of you having to shove him.

The strike has less contact time than the push. You can let go of the left grab sooner, follow up with the right hand sooner, and do all of this by capitalizing on Mantis rebounding energy. This will make it more difficult for the opponent to read or listen to your energy.

N.

Oso

08-11-2005, 07:37 PM

does anyone else hit the point there on the crease of the waist that will lock a lung up? ( or rather, spasm a muscle associated with breathing)

Yang Jwing Ming illustrates this point in all his chin na books, I think, at least in one because I've seen it there.

I was first shown this by my hung gar teacher back in the 80's.

waist chopping makes me think of hitting this spot because it really does freaking take the wind out of someone.

I use a 'balance point' theory associated with the

ankles
knees
hips
shoulders
head

this waist chopping hits at least 4 of the 9 balance points

and FTR, the Pong Lai version definitely inserts the leg deeep.

and, howcome we gotta be on the main board to get a good technical discussion about mantis???????

good on ya, CF ;)

Chief Fox

08-11-2005, 09:21 PM

...and, howcome we gotta be on the main board to get a good technical discussion about mantis???????

good on ya, CF ;)
Yeah, I know. All it takes is some video of me doing a form badly and the information starts to flow. :D ;)

And in regards to the waist chop, I always pictured it as a chop to the floating rib area with a foot trap.

-N-

08-11-2005, 10:53 PM

and, howcome we gotta be on the main board to get a good technical discussion about mantis???????

good on ya, CF ;)
Hehehe :)

N.

-N-

08-11-2005, 11:04 PM

This is great. But I must admit that this discussion is above my level.

I've had some success with the back kick/back fist while sparring. I've attached a pick of how the back kick should look.

Thanks again to everyone. :)
That is what is shown in the books, but that is not how Brendan Lai taught the kick. In fact, he yelled at us most severely if we did the kick like that. Most could not do it correctly. He might have let a beginner do the kick that way at first though. There are many things shown in the pics that do not match the actual teaching. It can be a waste of time to use the pics for anything more than general reference.

As for that kick, we were to hit the lower shin. The body leans away and sinks sharply(by bending the left leg) to give force and extension to the kick. As taught by Brendan Lai, it is not a close range move. The recoil of the kick redirects the kicking force to travel back up through the body to be used in the double handed grab. Easier to show in person than to describe.

N.

-N-

08-11-2005, 11:12 PM

Re - strike vs. push in the waist chop performed as throw.

[...]

The opponent's reaction throws him instead of you having to shove him.

The strike has less contact time than the push. You can let go of the left grab sooner, follow up with the right hand sooner, and do all of this by capitalizing on Mantis rebounding energy. This will make it more difficult for the opponent to read or listen to your energy.
We consider this the more finesseful way to apply the throw. Pushing and shoving are more rough and simple in idea. Not to say that doesn't also work.

This preference in application relates to our lineage's preference to relax and conserve the vibrational energy so it can be reused to trigger rapid fire combinations in small frame.

N.

Oso

08-12-2005, 08:38 AM

dude, where you live...i can't find a good PT in this town and I'm all kinds of effed up...sounds like you could fix me up.

anyway...

this is my #1 favorite spot to strike. I am aware that it is unilateral. In YJW's book he defines it as a sealing the breath strike. I've practiced this one a lot...usually hitting my opponents right side with a short punch inside or in passing to his right or I can land a right leg front kick to the opponents left side and get good immediate results as well.

Thanks, now I can sound all official the next time I teach someone this target. :)

mantishop

08-12-2005, 12:00 PM

Personally, I don't believe the double chamber in any Tanglang form is correct. It is going against the original theory rather than complimenting it IMHO. But then that's just me.

Thats interesting. Would you mind elaborating a bit on that? Why do you believe it is going against the original theory?

monkeyfoot

08-12-2005, 12:27 PM

This form is close to the hk lineage, but then there are numerous parts that differ from the hk version that I know of. Extra movements, different footwork, plus how the form is performed.

As for the hand fanning, we were always taught to lean away from the opponent and keep our front foot locked just behind their front leg. When you execute this move and lean away from them their body becomes off balance and their positioning feels awkward.

I really want to post up a video for you guys to critique.....I really would like someone to closely study and pick up on all the rubbish bits I do. Thats the best was a newbie like me can improve.

craig

gwa sow

08-12-2005, 12:32 PM

-N-

08-12-2005, 06:28 PM

sorry to intrude on your discussion but can any of you give me an opinion on these mantis tapes by sifu al cheng http://www.secretsoftheorient.com/secretsoftheorient/Praying%20Mantis.htm
i would like to learn bung bo but dont wanna get any videos without any recomendations?
You cannot learn forms properly from a video. All you will get is something that sort of looks like Bung Bo, but it will be useless.

N.

jwwmantis

08-12-2005, 10:28 PM

If you want to learn Bung Bo, then I suggest Sifu Jon Funks tape. His tape series is the best out there on mantis. But you should have a qualified instructor to evaluate/assist you from time to time.

John

Young Mantis

08-15-2005, 10:52 PM

Noted, might I add I've seen it done with a fist as well and that is aimed a little higher on the hip like N says. Either way I think it's purpose is served, it just depends on what you're going for. One is a hit to a softer target combined with a throw and the other is a hit to a harder target that gives more umph to the throw.

Hi, just saw this thread. I'd like to point out that we treat this technique as primarily a throw as well although the strike to the waist is i think a very usable technique. Yes, the opponent is falling or at least off balance at the time of the strike. But if you are close enough when you trap his leg, the target is still well within reach for a very effective strike to the waist. We have practiced this with both a palm and a fist.

Shirkers, in regards to putting more "umph" as a throw, have you tried pushing at the shoulder instead of the waist area? I have done this while sparring with classmates when we don't wear torso protection. I treat the opponents body like a lever and my trapping leg like a fulcrum. I find the higher target provides more leverage for throwing the opponent and its usually faster since my right hand does not travel as far to reach the target.

-N-

08-15-2005, 11:31 PM

But if you are close enough when you trap his leg, the target is still well within reach for a very effective strike to the waist. We have practiced this with both a palm and a fist.

Shirkers, in regards to putting more "umph" as a throw, have you tried pushing at the shoulder instead of the waist area? I have done this while sparring with classmates when we don't wear torso protection. I treat the opponents body like a lever and my trapping leg like a fulcrum. I find the higher target provides more leverage for throwing the opponent and its usually faster since my right hand does not travel as far to reach the target.Hi Vance,

Pushing at the shoulder can work. You do have a longer lever arm, but with that, the contact area needs to move a greater distance. Also, if the person is relaxed and flexible, he can yield with the shoulder push and nullify the throw slightly.

Regarding striking with palm or fist. If you hit in the right spot on the waist, you can use even just one finger, and the person's flinch reaction will throw him. You don't need to do much more than to set up the throw and lock up his balance point. So even though contacting at the waist gives a shorter lever arm, you don't have to use your own force to throw. Use the opponent's force to throw him. One finger is all you need to create a rigidity in the opponent's body so that he cannot yield. That is what I mean by a more finesseful way to do waist chop. Threading the needle, chopping the waist... not grabbing the person and manhandling him to the ground. Play around with this to get a feel for how it might work. You will like this variation.

Ok, that's my "secret technique" for the day :)

N.

Young Mantis

08-16-2005, 06:35 AM

Thank you Sibak. I understand what you are saying and will definitely try it out in class.

Sincerely,
Vance

Neophyte

08-16-2005, 07:54 AM

Hi Chief

Nice form. Thats very close to our Bung Bo, Master Lee Kam Wings lineage. Apart from a couple of things.

1. We dont skip into the first move like yourself, its just a step into Hill Climbing Stance then the Palm Block.

2. At the end of the first road we drop into Circle Entering stance rather than Horse Ridding Stance when doing the elbow.

3. After the back kick, intercept & backfist we dont move forward but do the hook, grapple & pluck on the spot the move up with the Scoop Wheel Fist.

Apart from them that the same form we do. It looks like Im about at the same stage you are with your trainng. It would be nice to see you in full flow.

Cheers

YuanZhideDiZhen

08-16-2005, 08:25 AM

now, if i could only get you guys to describe the rest of the mantis forms and styles this way i might have a better idea...

1. of how to kick your a55es. :D

2. of what you mean by a lot of your descriptions of the various styles particular useages of techniques in form application. :)

3. of why lineage is so important. :rolleyes:

4. "...of which style would be best for (me)". :confused:

monkeyfoot

08-16-2005, 10:36 AM

a few more diffrerences Neophyte:

the end of the second road, the hammer fist and then cross and break is different in foot work.

His beginning of the 3rd road has an extra movement before the 2 lower leg sprouting movements - we also dont emphasize the leg sprouting so much as to mean swinging the leg up.

On the 3rd road the leg hanging stance with the warding fist is different. The left hand position is held mush higher in his form....above the head.

The hand fanning movements of the 4th road are also hopped when changing - we are very grounded when we move from movement to movement.

but yes, there are many simularities.

craig

-N-

08-16-2005, 11:39 AM

Vance, you're welcome. Btw, probably just a typo, but your teacher is senior to me.

Best regards to your teacher and classmates.

N.

Mika

08-16-2005, 07:44 PM

Since we are discussing (novice) videos of Beng Bu, may I chime in?

www.tanglang.fi/downloads/Esko_Beng_Bu_2.wmv

9,79 Mb

This is not a new version of Beng Bu, although the name of the video (and some techniques :D) may suggest so. The performer is called Esko, and this was the second shot (thus #2).

This was shot in Tampere, Finland, in June 2005. At the time, Esko had been learning Tang Lang for 4 months. Beng Bu we all learned from our Shifu, Slawomir Milczarek, in May 2005. So, with 4 months of Tang Lang and 1 month of Beng Bu, this is Esko's attempt.

He himself recognizes a lot of the mistakes he makes and has improved since.

Nice spot, that. A couple of Kung Fu groups practice there in the summer. :)

Cheers,

Mika

Neophyte

08-17-2005, 06:53 AM

Yep I see what you mean

The move before the cross and break is an intercept, step into Horse Stance and hammer fist then then adjust to cross leg stance and break.

3rd road Chief has an extra leg sprout and our leg sprouts stop at 7* stance.

Got the differences with the warding fist. The move before also, Mantis Spies the Cave looks to be mid level rather than high level.

4th road, our leg moves are smoother rather than hopped.

It would be nice to see more vids from the other styles of how there Bung Bo looks. Unfortuntley cant show you lot mine I've got no video camera.

Mika, nice vid. Esko looks pretty good there, again looks very similar to ours with some differences in stance's and hand techniques.

Cheers

a few more diffrerences Neophyte:

the end of the second road, the hammer fist and then cross and break is different in foot work.

His beginning of the 3rd road has an extra movement before the 2 lower leg sprouting movements - we also dont emphasize the leg sprouting so much as to mean swinging the leg up.

On the 3rd road the leg hanging stance with the warding fist is different. The left hand position is held mush higher in his form....above the head.

The hand fanning movements of the 4th road are also hopped when changing - we are very grounded when we move from movement to movement.

but yes, there are many simularities.

craig