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Ultimatewingchun

08-07-2005, 10:21 AM

Good post, hazhardy...

Thought I'd repost something I wrote on a thread some time ago that relates directly to your point:

"After a certain amount of forms, (ie.- SLT), pak sao drills, bong sao-lop sao drills, dan chi sao, and double arm chi sao has been learned - in pretty much a cooperative manner, and after a certain amount of footwork, punching and kicking has been learned...and after a certain amount of actual combat technique scenarios have been learned (ie.- I'm in a parallel position - or a cross leg position, vis-a-vis my opponent, and from a non contact position, and he throws a straight lead punch to my head, a hook to my head, a rear cross, a low punch to the body, a rear front kick to the body, a roundhouse kick toward the back of my my thigh, etc.- and my response is A,B,C,D, etc.) ...after a certain amount of this kind of thing has been learned...

then we put on all the protective gear that was described earlier - and we start doing drills with the above scenarios that result in contact being made, including light-to-moderate headshots...becoming more and more spontaneous as time goes on...while learning various ways to attack (and bridge the gap)...and with more and more intensity of contact and speed...and less cooperative...until it's pretty competitive, but with protective gear.

What I believe this does is teach people how to make contact, (both giving and receiving), including headshots and fairly hard kicks to the body and legs (including kicks to the knees) in a relatively safe manner- because of all the protective gear.

But simultaneously, as time goes on, the chi sao (without any gear of course), needs to become increasingly competitive, and with more and more contact - because wing chun requires that you experience hitting (and getting hit) with palm strikes, punches, chopping strikes, and even some finger strikes in ways that can't be done while wearing gloves or headgear.

And this is where the rubber really needs to hit the road PROPERLY; and by that I mean, relationships should now be formed between classmates (and between instructor and students) - which allows for a competitiveness that doesn't result in childish behavior. (As an example of what I mean, I have about 6 guys who have spent many years with me (7-8-10-12-15 years)...and when they spar with each other (or with me)...with the protective gear - or no gear while doing chi sao...we all recognize the fact that any one of us is capable of scoring (and scoring fairly hard) on the other guy at any given moment...so we've learned to accept that WITHOUT GETTING UPSET...and without having to immediately "get even", and so on.

I think this formula avoids a number of pitfalls and traps:

Firstly...it recognizes that longer range footwork, (ie.- starting from a non contact range - which will require bridging the gap with kicks, boxing style punches, and up-on-the-toes footwork)...is a necessity. (Too easy to fall into the belief that all you need is more and more chi sao that EVENTUALLY will start from a distance...MY THEORY IS that you need to do both types of work...RIGHT FROM THE START....close range chi sao...and longer range sparring drills (and sparring).

Secondly, it bypasses the SINK-OR-SWIM mentality that might occur when there's no protective gear, and it's just chi sao that eventually separates into a non contact starting point type of "sparring"...and you're getting punched in the mouth or in the ribs bare knuckled from early on in your training. (Which can also result in just sloppy stuff and not enough advanced wing chun technique - because there's such a big rush to learn how to kick butt and "feel good about yourself" as quickly as you can. Also probably one of the biggest reasons why some people rely way too heavily on chain punching and the like).

This also can give a false sense of security to the seniors - because they always know in the back of their mind somewhere that a REALLY HARD punch to the face, or kick to body WILL PROBABLY NEVER COME (since there's no gloves or headgear, or chest protector ever being used)...

and a FALSE SENSE OF FAILURE to the juniors who may start to think that they're just a punching bag with no ability to defend themselves.

edward

08-07-2005, 10:35 AM

I'm not into sparring, I'm much to delicate.....ouch :)

wongjunlam

08-08-2005, 06:26 PM

Hey Mate,

I knew about Kevin when I was living in Pompy. Does he still do milling?

It's vital to learn hwo to use your art when some one is randomly attacking you instead of throwing pre arranged attacks. I'm glad to see some other people taking this up. Although I wouldn't just jab and stop. Your learning wing chun, you should use wing chun, Fill the centre (theres your jab) if they dont block, keep pressing forwards while attacking. The fight should be finished in a few seconds. IF he manages to stop your initial attack (to be honest a good wing chun punch is hard to block..) don't stop, control move forward and attack...

WJL

WJL

word everyone,, just a little thought i should share..
Last Thursday, at my class, we did some sparring. ok, all is well,,, gloves are on, gum shield in, etc etc.
Sifu tells us to do the front punch/half chain punch/ jab (wing chun jab if you like).
so here i am, just trading a few air punches with these dudes (one after the other, not at the same time) and BANG. a jab gets through,,,, but not once,, about 8 times infact,,,,and that;s just one of the dudes there. What worried me was that everyone i was jabbing in the **** face, were all higher up than me in Wing Chun, with at least 1 or 2 grades above me..
so my message is this,,, if you don't already spar at your wing chun class, DO IT. because it was worrying to see how many people can do form and technique to the F and T, but can;t block series of punches or move around in a sparring fashion,, so if it is not part of your wing chun class yeat, tell your Sifu to do it a.s.a.f.p. because if you're not sparring then you're not thinking of how to use your wing chun in a fighting situation, where series or punches are thrown. One hit wonder, ''Pub Slugger'' punches, aren't the only style fights you will get in, fo' sure.
So SPAR SPAR SPAR, and do it regularly, because it is fun, and you learn faster once you get hit, and you use your wing chun skills while doing it,, so do it!
cool.
the hza

http://www.kamonwingchun.com is the club i belong to, to train wing chun,, check it out...

wongjunlam

08-08-2005, 07:23 PM

I whole heartedly disagree that at a long range we as wing chun practitioners have to resort to boxing style, or up on the toes type footwork. What you need to do is to learn to use Wing Chun at these ranges. Everything you need is there in the system. You have just got to use it.

Good post, hazhardy...

Firstly...it recognizes that longer range footwork, (ie.- starting from a non contact range - which will require bridging the gap with kicks, boxing style punches, and up-on-the-toes footwork)...is a necessity. (Too easy to fall into the belief that all you need is more and more chi sao that EVENTUALLY will start from a distance...MY THEORY IS that you need to do both types of work...RIGHT FROM THE START....close range chi sao...and longer range sparring drills (and sparring).

Ultimatewingchun

08-08-2005, 07:37 PM

lawrenceofidaho

08-08-2005, 08:08 PM

I whole heartedly disagree that at a long range we as wing chun practitioners have to resort to boxing style, or up on the toes type footwork. When some people hear "up on the toes footwork", they might be imagining someone with their heels 2-3 inches off of the floor, and bouncing up and down, but I'm sure this is not what Victor meant.

Getting power from the balls of the feet are what's important, and your heels might not even be off the ground at all.

This is an advisable skill to cultivate no matter what style that you train in (wing chun, boxing, or anything else). -All world-class fighters do this.

-Lawrence

lawrenceofidaho

08-08-2005, 09:50 PM

Using sparring for what it is good for, development of certain attributes and the ability to utilize your skills in a limited way.
Timing can only really be developed by sparring. (As an attribute, timing cannot be overestimated.) -Sparring is also great for letting you know where your conditioning is at, and also learning how to take a shot or two without panicking or losing your focus.

The key is to utilze your art where it is best suited.
Agreed.
It may also be key to spend some time training in a second (or third) art so you won't be caught unprepared if you find yourself in a position where your primary art is not best suited.......

I'd much rather have in close fighting abilities than long range ones, since almost 99% of the time the fight ends up close range.
I hear grapplers saying this all the time too....... ;)

It's great to become familiar with the other's players games, boxing/Thai footwork and such, but most of it seems like a waste of motion if you ask me.
Bigger motion, maybe, -but wasted motion? -Not necessarily........ There is always a trade-off between efficiency and power. Depends on the situation and what is going to win you the fight. (It's nice to have both in your repetoire.)

-Lawrence

sihing

08-08-2005, 10:21 PM

Timing can only really be developed by sparring. (As an attribute, timing cannot be overestimated.) -Sparring is also great for letting you know where your conditioning is at, and also learning how to take a shot or two without panicking or losing your focus.

Agreed.
It may also be key to spend some time training in a second (or third) art so you won't be caught unprepared if you find yourself in a position where your primary art is not best suited.......

I hear grapplers saying this all the time too....... ;)

Bigger motion, maybe, -but wasted motion? -Not necessarily........ There is always a trade-off between efficiency and power. Depends on the situation and what is going to win you the fight. (It's nice to have both in your repetoire.)

-Lawrence

The problem with training in other arts is the time committment, most do not have any time to do so. If the interest is there then why not, but when the purpose is to learn self defense, then why spend all the time learning all the arts. Investigation of course is necessary and if you are unfamiliar with anothers methods (meaning you have absolutely no exposure to what they are doing, like the Gracies in the early UFC's) you will be caught off guard and by surprise which works very effectively most of the time.

In practice you try to practice perfect movement in whatever you are doing, and in the end it all comes down to timing, so therefore if the movements are bigger, this translates to time and distance, meaning less efficiency. Is it easier or harder to apply timing to a larger less efficient movement? Harder. Boxing has larger movements than WC, but in perfection of the craft the movements become smaller for the more skilled, same applies to WC, the better you are at it then the smaller the movements, which means......?

James

Edmund

08-08-2005, 11:52 PM

Boxing has larger movements than WC, but in perfection of the craft the movements become smaller for the more skilled, same applies to WC, the better you are at it then the smaller the movements, which means......?

Spar and find out.

If the opponent is doing "wasted motions" by your logic you should theoretically be beating them to death. Putting it into practice is the hard part.

wongjunlam

08-09-2005, 02:34 AM

Yeah...right. :rolleyes:

Just use your wing chun from any range.

It's not almost exclusively an infight system.

No....................any range.

Just move in.

Right.

And the last time you sparred/fought a skilled boxer, kickboxer, or Thai boxer type was when? ;)

December 2003, Sanda/chinese kick boxing VS traditional Kung fu competiton held on the theatre stage of Hai Zhu District (in guangzhou). That was the last offical Competition I was in. I Won. Incase your questioning the skill of the person I fought. he has been part of the Fang Cun District police sanda team for 7 years.

The way you talk, I am curious do you even practice wing chun? if yes, you should give your art some respect.

last year doing a demonstration the local Thai boxing club in Bai Yun District stopped by and watched. afterards one wanted to see if wing chun could fight. I won that fight too using wing chun.

My Sidai, while watching a kickboxing demo, was talking to his cousin the instructor over heard and challenged him. My sidai won the fight.

We are trying to arrange another competition for the next year (needs cash). I'm quite sure I;ll have the oppotunity again to fight against thai boxing, kickboxing.. what ever.

From your profile, I see you study Willam Cheungs Wing Chun? Maybe you are just not taught to use your wing chun over a distance. (i think Phil might disagree.. but I'll let him chine in on this.) I don't KNow I do not and have not studied HK wing chun, Just Guangzhou wing chun.

I am looking to go to NY and meet some martial arts friends in the future. (not now as wife is about to give birth) When I end up that end of the world you should come along.. (probably be in about 2 years..) your more than welcome to look me up in CHina if your ever this way...

sihing

08-09-2005, 09:03 AM

Spar and find out.

If the opponent is doing "wasted motions" by your logic you should theoretically be beating them to death. Putting it into practice is the hard part.

Theoretically I should be, because if I can't make it work it is my fault, not the arts.

Okay, you have movements that are larger and less efficient in application vs. shorter more efficient movments in application. Which should be easier to apply in reality? When you say it is different in application as compared to practice I totally agree, but the same applies to every movement out there, so in essence the boxer needs more time to perfect his craft than lets say us, being WC practitioners. I'm not saying that the boxers are uneffective, of course they aren't, but the ones that are real good, are putting tons of time in to make it so. The idea behind WC, at least from what I understand, is to develop effective fighting skills in a short period of time, for anyone that wish to put in the time, not just a select few.

James

sihing

08-09-2005, 09:25 AM

December 2003, Sanda/chinese kick boxing VS traditional Kung fu competiton held on the theatre stage of Hai Zhu District (in guangzhou). That was the last offical Competition I was in. I Won. Incase your questioning the skill of the person I fought. he has been part of the Fang Cun District police sanda team for 7 years.

The way you talk, I am curious do you even practice wing chun? if yes, you should give your art some respect.

last year doing a demonstration the local Thai boxing club in Bai Yun District stopped by and watched. afterards one wanted to see if wing chun could fight. I won that fight too using wing chun.

My Sidai, while watching a kickboxing demo, was talking to his cousin the instructor over heard and challenged him. My sidai won the fight.

We are trying to arrange another competition for the next year (needs cash). I'm quite sure I;ll have the oppotunity again to fight against thai boxing, kickboxing.. what ever.

From your profile, I see you study Willam Cheungs Wing Chun? Maybe you are just not taught to use your wing chun over a distance. (i think Phil might disagree.. but I'll let him chine in on this.) I don't KNow I do not and have not studied HK wing chun, Just Guangzhou wing chun.

I am looking to go to NY and meet some martial arts friends in the future. (not now as wife is about to give birth) When I end up that end of the world you should come along.. (probably be in about 2 years..) your more than welcome to look me up in CHina if your ever this way...

Good post...I've had similar experience also, as well as my Sihing's and Sidia's, but on here this is never believed unless there was something learned by the practitioners to bring the WC up to a so called standard. A while back I reported that one of our long term students (who doesn't practice often and consistently, but has been around since 92') sparred the local MMA champ, and even though our student is larger than this guy by about 30lbs, he had no problems dealing with what ever the MMA guy served up. He later brought him into the school to show him a few things and I was there to witness it, samething happened there too. There are many examples out there of WC practitioners successfully using what they know, using exclusively WC. Now I'm not trying to say that WC is all that there is out there or that everyone learning WC will be awesome fighters, because we all know that in the end it comes down to the individuals abilities to use it correctly when needed.

Also, I find it funny when people claim that WC is in need of outside source material to bring it up to the MMA standard. Why is it that people try to compare a average individuals abilities (someone that has a full time job and other committments besides MA), to that of a professional athelete. Guys like Victor always come back and say "And the last time you sparred/fought a skilled boxer, kickboxer, or Thai boxer type was when?" Is he implying that if I for example spend a equal amount of time training and am just as skilled as any of these practitioners that I can't compete against them. I think this is total BS, and comes from someone that doesn't have an appreciation of the art he claims to teach.

Sometimes I think the people that believe in adding more on to their WC from outside sources are just bored and feel the need to do so, not because the need is actually there.

James

sihing

08-09-2005, 10:29 AM

Sounds like you and some of your friends have sparred/fought some boxing/kick boxing/Thai boxing/san da people - but how skilled these people were - I don't know?

But I do know this much:

Firstly: William Cheung's TWC has more long range strategy than any other wing chun I've seen....but be that as it may...I still know from experience that being up-on-your-toes and using long range striking and low kicking technique with an indirect and elusive type of footwork... to get to the very close quarter wing chun PREFERRED range (regardless of what wing chun style we're talking about - for TWC still "prefers" to get very close like evry other wing chun)...

the long range stuff i just alluded to are things that TWC just scratches the surface about...(and does what it does in this regard very well)...

but having spent many years sparring frequently with guys who were/are skilled in boxing and kickboxing...I know that wing chun is limited at certain ranges (ie.- any range wherein your'e not in actual limb-to-limb contact or within one short step of being so)...and furthermore...even in very close quarters against a boxer type who holds his hands back (thereby denying the wing chun fighter his "bridge")...and throws punches from various angles while bobbing, weaving, slipping (ie.- Marciano, Frazier, Tyson)...

wing chun per se has it's problems with this (ie.- "the wing chun idea of "just coming in" even at this range can easily result in your opponent hooking, uppercutting, or coming over the top and down with punches you will NOT block, avoid, or redirect...ie.- they will hit you).

Which is not to say that wing chun PRINCIPLES can't be used successfully at these ranges and against the Marciano/Tyson type puncher...because I know that those principles CAN be used quite successfully.

But by this I mean something probably very different than what you might normally perceive to be the case. Here is some detail from a posrt I made on a previous thread:

I love this, here's a absolute statement for ya, I quote "wing chun per se has it's problems with this (ie.- "the wing chun idea of "just coming in" even at this range can easily result in your opponent hooking, uppercutting, or coming over the top and down with punches you will NOT block, avoid, or redirect...ie.- they will hit you)." How can anyone with any sense say things like this. No one and I mean no one can guarantee that a boxers uppercuts, hooks, bla bla bla will absolutely hit me coming on them, LOL. What a joke this is, and you guys get on my A$$ about what I say at times. If you believe that anyone can easily hit you on the way in then I guess for YOU this is the case, since you believe it so much Victor (talk about having no faith in what one claims to teach). How about putting the attack to them on the way in using a whole bunch things we do all the time.

This is probably why you Victor are not listed on your Sifu's website anymore...

James

Ultimatewingchun

08-09-2005, 10:38 AM

wongjunlam:

Sounds like you and some of your friends have sparred/fought some boxing/kick boxing/Thai boxing/san da people - but how skilled these people were - I don't know?

But I do know this much:

Firstly: William Cheung's TWC has more long range strategy than any other wing chun I've seen....but be that as it may...I still know from experience that it's important to be up-on-your-toes and use some long range striking (ie.- similar to boxing) and low kicking technique with an indirect and elusive type of footwork...as a means to do damage and/or get to the very close quarter wing chun PREFERRED range (regardless of what wing chun style we're talking about - for TWC still "prefers" to get very close like every other version of wing chun)...

But the longer range strategy that TWC uses just scratches the surface...(and does what it does in this regard very well - I might add)...

HOWEVER having spent many years sparring frequently with guys who were/are skilled in boxing and kickboxing...I know that any wing chun is limited at certain ranges - and I've done/seen more than just TWC....(ie.- any range wherein your'e not in actual limb-to-limb contact or within one short step of being so)...and furthermore...even in very close quarters against a boxer type who holds his hands back (thereby denying the wing chun fighter his "bridge")...and such boxer throws punches from various angles while bobbing, weaving, slipping (ie.- Marciano, Frazier, Tyson)...

wing chun per se has it's problems with this to be sure (ie.- the wing chun idea of "just coming in and dominating the center" even at this range can easily result in your opponent hooking, uppercutting, or coming over the top and down with punches you will NOT block, avoid, or redirect...ie.- they will hit you).

Which is not to say that wing chun PRINCIPLES can't be used successfully at these longer ranges and against the Marciano/Tyson type of close quarter puncher...because I know that those principles CAN be used quite successfully.

But by this I mean something probably very different than what you might normally perceive to be the case. Here is some detail from a post I made on a previous thread in this regard:

"I've been using certain techniques and principles that resemble boxing somewhat...and yet are still very much Wing Chun in orientation.

It concerns NOT trying to simply attack the 'center' of the opponent. But rather to also look upon both of his arms (particularly near his shoulders)... as vertical centerlines running down toward his legs.

I'm in a front stance - whatever front stance. Could be a left front stance vs. his left front; or it could be my left front stance vs. his right front.

Either way, my two arms are matched up against his (ie.- my left arm vs. his right arm) - and it is fighting his right arm for CONTROL of the vertical centerline that I just described...while my right arm is fighting his left arm for control of the other vertical centerline.

(All of this is being done IN ADDITION TO my main centerline that runs down the actual center of my body).

So at the moment I'm talking about 3 centerlines...with special emphasis on the two outside lines.

It's as if I'm dueling with a foil in each hand against his two foils simultaneously.

BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT I'LL CONSTANTLY JUST CHASE HIS HANDS...

On the contrary, - suppose he just dropped his right hand lead from his guard position right down to his side - I wouldn't chase his arm/hand - I would simply punch into the line that is now completely open with my left fist (but I'd probably throw a low to medium height punch - not a head shot - so as to maintain control (and occupy) the line if he decided to immediately come back up again with that hand that he dropped.

Furthermore...I would NOT be moving toward him with my MAIN centerline directly facing his center...I would be in a more basic boxing type pose - which means that - in the example I just gave of him dropping his right arm down - and I was in a left lead stance...the left punch I would throw would look like a boxer's stiff straight lead - with body torgue and with the punch being thrown horizontally. (Not the vertical wing chun sun punch).

Because I'm assuming that the distance would require this type of punch (for extra reach). I'm not assuming that I'm already in a very close limb-to-limb contact or trapping range.

Which is a whole other issue to be addressed - distancing and footwork from a longer than typical 'wing chun' range.

But more about that maybe later.

But for right now...I'm using such a long range 'wing chun boxing' type strategy as a means to get closer to the inside close quarter position - while hopefully also landing punches (and possibly kicks)....as well as maybe beginning to trap, pin, pak, or lop an arm....but most of all - by CONTROLLING, OCCUPYING, AND GOING FORWARD on a 'centerline'.

In other words - I'm establishing a bridge through the use of longer range boxing technique - BUT GUIDED BY WING CHUN CENTERLINE PRINCIPLES.

(Or central line principles...take your pick. But's it's still Wing Chun).

And yet it's also something a little different than what some may have considered Wing Chun to be in the past.

One more note:

I will also oftentimes purposely throw horizontal longer range boxing type punches into the very lines that he may be covering with a tight defense so as to purposely create a bridge (and a 'centerline') to try and take control of. I'm forcing his arms to either engage mine or run the risk of taking a hit to the body or head - because the punches are directly on one (or both) of these outside centerlines - and are therefore the shortest distance between the proverbial two points."

Ultimatewingchun

08-09-2005, 12:00 PM

I now use a whole series of low kicking attacks and the TWC Entry move - in combo with some of the longer range boxing type punching discussed earlier - as a means to attack my opponent. Along with some up-on-your-toes footwork as a means of deception, mobility, and explosiveness.

I don't see the value of simply trying to move forward (whether it be straight or angular triangle stepping) whenever the opponent comes in, throws a punch, throws a kick, etc....in order to create a bridge into the Wing Chun type of infight.

Now I chose my words carefully in that last sentence...and the keyword is "simply", ie.- there will be times when someone might just launch an attack first, and my response should be (and will be) to move in the way I just described, or perhaps to do some variation of the TWC side step while counter attacking.

But I prefer to attack rather than wait for him to commit to something.

As a few example of what I mean, let's say I'm in a CROSS position to my opponent, ie.- I'm in a left (side body) neutral side stance - or I'm in a left front stance with my left leg leading...vs. his LEFT leg forward stance.

Some of the kicks I might use is a rear heel kick with my right foot attacking his lead left knee...or a rear (right leg) roundhouse to the back of his left thigh...or a lead left leg crescent heel kick to his left knee...or a hop lead left front kick or roundhouse kick to his groin...

Or I'm in a PARALLEL position to my opponent, ie.- I'm in a left (side body) neutral side stance - or I'm in a left front with my left leg leading....vs. his RIGHT leg forward stance.

Some of the kicks I might use from here would be a lead left roundhouse kick to the back of his right thigh...or a rear (right leg) heel kick to his right knee...or a hop front (right leg) heel kick to his right knee...

just some examples.

As a means of bridging the gap while landing some damage to set up bigger artillery coming in...

and of course, using all of the above in COMBINATION with a whole series of different longer range boxing type punching attacks (but with a definite Wing Chun tinge to the overall strategy)...some of the detail of which I might post more about later (ie.- it's not just leading with a stiff boxing/wing chun type jab)...

this is what I've found most useful as means to either do some real damage or as a setup to get to the closer "bridge" contact reflex Wing Chun range.

(THE ABOVE IS FROM ANOTHER CURRENT THREAD - BUT IT FIT THIS DISCUSSION SO I POSTED IT HERE ALSO).

Merryprankster

08-09-2005, 12:29 PM

There is to much Stress, the level of sensitive goes way down,Egos get in the way. and adrenalin goes into overhaul!

If you're used to it, stress and adrenalin go WAY down while level of sensitivity goes up. I've been sparring in some form since I was 14 - 15 years now - and each time I've been caught, I could tell you why.

And anybody with an ego problem won't last after getting their asses handed to them a few times. And if it stays a problem, you kick them out.

It's that simple.

lawrenceofidaho

08-09-2005, 01:34 PM

I love this, here's a absolute statement for ya, I quote "wing chun per se has it's problems with this (ie.- "the wing chun idea of "just coming in" even at this range can easily result in your opponent hooking, uppercutting, or coming over the top and down with punches you will NOT block, avoid, or redirect...ie.- they will hit you)." How can anyone with any sense say things like this. No one and I mean no one can guarantee that a boxers uppercuts, hooks, bla bla bla will absolutely hit me coming on them, LOL. What a joke this is, and you guys get on my A$$ about what I say at times. If you believe that anyone can easily hit you on the way in then I guess for YOU this is the case, since you believe it so much Victor (talk about having no faith in what one claims to teach). How about putting the attack to them on the way in using a whole bunch things we do all the time.
James, I have to say I concur with Victor here....... I seems pretty clear that he's really mixed it up with good boxers, and that if you actually have worked with a decent one, he was taking it really easy on you and just trying to see what WC was about and not challenge or compete with you in any way.

I'm no Roy Jones, but at 150lbs if (just about) anyone under 200lbs comes charging at me with classic (unmodified) chain punches, they're going to be open for boxing's: bob & weave, pivot step, and hook that will probably land them on their A$$. -and even if it doesn't, I'll be able to safely follow up with some (modified) chain punches of my own, as they will likely be stunned, and I'll have their flank.

I don't think that anyone actually training with decent MMA guys (or boxers) would ever minimize how dangerous they can be or suggest that they would crumple when classic chain punches were thrown at them.

-Lawrence

Ultimatewingchun

08-09-2005, 01:47 PM

"When some people hear 'up on the toes footwork', they might be imagining someone with their heels 2-3 inches off of the floor, and bouncing up and down, but I'm sure this is not what Victor meant.

Getting power from the balls of the feet are what's important, and your heels might not even be off the ground at all.

This is an advisable skill to cultivate no matter what style that you train in (wing chun, boxing, or anything else). -All world-class fighters do this." (lawrenceofidaho)

***THANKS for bringing this to my attention, Lawrence. I should indeed clarify what I mean by being "up-on-your-toes"...It is indeed about getting power from the balls of your feet - but raising the heel and using a bouncing motion (at times) should be very subtle and without actually raising and lowering your heels off the floor very much (in terms of height)...so that you're gliding smoothly and with a minimum of up and down motion as you move back and forth - and from side to side...

In other words - avoid being completely flatfooted (and rooted) until you actually begin landing the strike or kick. This will increase speed and mobility - as well as serve as a more efficient delivery system for strikes and kicks.

FROM THE LONGER RANGES.

But from a closer limb-to-limb contact range (or from a distance of one simple step with the lead foot from being able to touch your opponent) - the whole strategy changes - and being flatfooted in order to draw power from the ground and maintain strong balance while striking, kicking, use of knees or elbows, pushing with explosiveness (as in po pai...buttterfly palms)...throwing or sweeping, etc. is important.

Because these things require a more stable stance and rootedness-in-movement.

In other words: very wing chun. :D

I'll say it again: Wing Chun is primarily a very close quarter infight.

unkokusai

08-09-2005, 07:03 PM

No one and I mean no one can guarantee that a boxers uppercuts, hooks, bla bla bla will absolutely hit me coming on them, LOL. What a joke this is,

Are you saying that were you to fight a boxer you would not get hit? :eek:

Edmund

08-09-2005, 07:11 PM

Theoretically I should be, because if I can't make it work it is my fault, not the arts.

Okay, you have movements that are larger and less efficient in application vs. shorter more efficient movments in application. Which should be easier to apply in reality? When you say it is different in application as compared to practice I totally agree, but the same applies to every movement out there, so in essence the boxer needs more time to perfect his craft than lets say us, being WC practitioners. I'm not saying that the boxers are uneffective, of course they aren't, but the ones that are real good, are putting tons of time in to make it so. The idea behind WC, at least from what I understand, is to develop effective fighting skills in a short period of time, for anyone that wish to put in the time, not just a select few.

Why is a larger motion less efficient in application? The SIZE of the motion is not the only factor dictating how efficient it is! That's my problem with your theory - nothing to do with boxers being effective or not.

Reach obviously is a factor. Power also. The angle of attack. Whether it offers much defence. There's a bit more to the theories of WC than just making the movements small.

sihing

08-09-2005, 08:27 PM

James, I have to say I concur with Victor here....... I seems pretty clear that he's really mixed it up with good boxers, and that if you actually have worked with a decent one, he was taking it really easy on you and just trying to see what WC was about and not challenge or compete with you in any way.

I'm no Roy Jones, but at 150lbs if (just about) anyone under 200lbs comes charging at me with classic (unmodified) chain punches, they're going to be open for boxing's: bob & weave, pivot step, and hook that will probably land them on their A$$. -and even if it doesn't, I'll be able to safely follow up with some (modified) chain punches of my own, as they will likely be stunned, and I'll have their flank.

I don't think that anyone actually training with decent MMA guys (or boxers) would ever minimize how dangerous they can be or suggest that they would crumple when classic chain punches were thrown at them.

-Lawrence

Lawrence,
Who said anything about entering with Chain Punches? If that is all your WC offers you in the area of entry techniques, then I can understand your positon, but that is not the case with other WC systems and Instructors. Also, even if one where to use only chain punches to enter with, they would have to be done within the proper range and with timing, so that all of your counters would be even more difficult to apply. Throwing out chain punches from 2 or 1 feet away from proper distance is asking for it for sure, so I would agree with you in that context. You see IMO even if you are able to see the WC punch coming at you, we train to stop the movement in mid flight and change it to adapt to your counter. One good way to counter the Straight is to angle off the the blindside and counter with your own straight, nullifying it.

My understanding of Victor's post has to do more along the lines with the TWC entry technique to which I thought Victor was referring to.

Regardless, like all intiated attacks, counters require timing also, and in essence, counters require more timing since you have to deal with your opponents attack also.

James

sihing

08-09-2005, 08:33 PM

Are you saying that were you to fight a boxer you would not get hit? :eek:

No, of course not. What I said was in response to Victor P's post, which he stated that if you just come in you WILL get hit by a variety punches by the boxer, to me this seems like he's guaranteeing absolutely that this is so. No one can guarantee anything will happen. There is always the possibility of getting hit by anyone, never mind the skilled fighter, and there is the possiblity that you will not get hit, it all depends on many variables, skill levels, attributes, etc.

James

sihing

08-09-2005, 08:49 PM

Why is a larger motion less efficient in application? The SIZE of the motion is not the only factor dictating how efficient it is! That's my problem with your theory - nothing to do with boxers being effective or not.

Reach obviously is a factor. Power also. The angle of attack. Whether it offers much defence. There's a bit more to the theories of WC than just making the movements small.
Large is just that, Larger. When concerned with fighting, if you can use smaller movement to genereate power and speed you have more efficiency. WC is not concerned with one punch knockouts that require larger wind ups to acheive power, this forcasts your intentions and allows one to see what is coming towards them.

Reach is a factor, but using rounds or hooks cuts down on a man's reach. Two boxers equal in reach, one using hooks or round attack only can be kept away by the others jab. If you can hit me with any round movement, be it hook punches, spinning kicks or punches, round punches, round kicks I can hit you also at the same time with straight movements. You have already set the distance up so that your attack will connect with some part of my body, so therefore I don't have to worry about distance.

Power, using round movements is generated by torque of the body, twists and shoulder turns, which gives the attacker using these movements less mobility. In my WC our power is generated by not rotating our bodies but by moving forward into our punch, staying almost square on in the upper torso (similar to pushing something), with the entire body behind it. This allows one to actually move and punch simultaneously (whether in attacking or retreating) more frequently over a period of time.

James

wongjunlam

08-09-2005, 09:35 PM

UWC,

wongjunlam:

Sounds like you and some of your friends have sparred/fought some boxing/kick boxing/Thai boxing/san da people - but how skilled these people were - I don't know?

I have sparred on more frequent occasions against people using various arts, although what I listed were actual fights. as for their skill level, If I said they were good, I'd probably be accused of lying if I said they were avarage then I'd get the "well if you went against someone who really knew what they were doing..."crap.. no win situation.

But I do know this much:

Firstly: William Cheung's TWC has more long range strategy than any other wing chun I've seen....but be that as it may...I still know from experience that it's important to be up-on-your-toes and use some long range striking (ie.- similar to boxing) and low kicking technique with an indirect and elusive type of footwork...as a means to do damage and/or get to the very close quarter wing chun PREFERRED range (regardless of what wing chun style we're talking about - for TWC still "prefers" to get very close like every other version of wing chun)...

But the longer range strategy that TWC uses just scratches the surface...(and does what it does in this regard very well - I might add)...

I have not seen all that much of Cheungs wing chun, but what I have seen, it is different to what we do here. (not saying it's not wing chun, but idea's and methodology are different)

HOWEVER having spent many years sparring frequently with guys who were/are skilled in boxing and kickboxing...I know that any wing chun is limited at certain ranges - and I've done/seen more than just TWC....(ie.- any range wherein your'e not in actual limb-to-limb contact or within one short step of being so)...and furthermore...even in very close quarters against a boxer type who holds his hands back (thereby denying the wing chun fighter his "bridge")...and such boxer throws punches from various angles while bobbing, weaving, slipping (ie.- Marciano, Frazier, Tyson)...

Wing Chun favours having a distance where contact with bridges are available. But what most people dont realise is that to have and to keep a bridge is difficult and it takes skill and a lot of training. This is why we spend a long time training the "outside/distance" game. I don't know how much about wing chun on the mainland you know. But unlike most wing chun classes that I have heard abotu or seen in the west. We do not start off with forms and Chi Sau. We start off with individual fighting techniques and they are trained against a partner in both pre arranged and unarranged drills. nobody touches Chi Sau or bridging as such until nearly 3 years in.... We all out here understand how important fighting at a distance is. And that is one of the beautiful things about Guangzhou wing chun, it is aimed at that, yet it does not use anything that is not found in Wing Chun (I do believe we have more hand methods than HK Wing Chun. at least from what I have seen of HK wing chun.

wing chun per se has it's problems with this to be sure (ie.- the wing chun idea of "just coming in and dominating the center" even at this range can easily result in your opponent hooking, uppercutting, or coming over the top and down with punches you will NOT block, avoid, or redirect...ie.- they will hit you).

Very good point, which brings us to how we are supposed to dominate the centre. If someone is just running forwards shooting out a bunch of centre line punches. then I agree, they deserve to get their head knocked off with a good hook. Running forwards with chain punches is a very very very basic technique which works against people with little or no real fighting skill. (i.e. your in a bar and some drunk winds up, you step in and chain punch him...) It will not work for the most part against a decent fighter who is mobile. Like I said this is not controling the centre, this is running in blind flailing randomly. anyone with half ammount of skill can attack around the outside. If this is what you think I do.. and how we fight. I can assure you it is not. You can control the centre from the inside or the outside. from the Inside is far more dangerous becuase they can attack on the outside. if you can control the centre from the outside it is fair more difficult for them to attack you. This is a bit harder as it means utalising footwork to get on the outside (wing chun out here has more than just bik bou and trangular stepping) and staying on the outside while controling their arm and attacking.

Which is not to say that wing chun PRINCIPLES can't be used successfully at these longer ranges and against the Marciano/Tyson type of close quarter puncher...because I know that those principles CAN be used quite successfully.

But by this I mean something probably very different than what you might normally perceive to be the case. Here is some detail from a post I made on a previous thread in this regard:

"I've been using certain techniques and principles that resemble boxing somewhat...and yet are still very much Wing Chun in orientation.

It concerns NOT trying to simply attack the 'center' of the opponent. But rather to also look upon both of his arms (particularly near his shoulders)... as vertical centerlines running down toward his legs.

I'm in a front stance - whatever front stance. Could be a left front stance vs. his left front; or it could be my left front stance vs. his right front.

Either way, my two arms are matched up against his (ie.- my left arm vs. his right arm) - and it is fighting his right arm for CONTROL of the vertical centerline that I just described...while my right arm is fighting his left arm for control of the other vertical centerline.

(All of this is being done IN ADDITION TO my main centerline that runs down the actual center of my body).

So at the moment I'm talking about 3 centerlines...with special emphasis on the two outside lines.

It's as if I'm dueling with a foil in each hand against his two foils simultaneously.

BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT I'LL CONSTANTLY JUST CHASE HIS HANDS...

Wing chun shouldn't chase hands. same as there is no golden rule that says you sould have to hit them in the centre of their body. you can punch them in the shoulder if you like, **** if someone kicks you you can punch their thigh.. their thigh is not the centre, doesn;t mean you can't attack it using wing chun. At least not out here.. The majority of my/our strikes are on the centre, but we can strike the side of the body etc.. Out here we get told to cross the centre, but not to hit the centre. IN training when punching in the air etc.. yeha we will always punch to the centre, but through our basic training we learn to punch at a full180 deg angle, thanks to Ji Mh Choih, Pin San Choih, and Duk Long Choih.

On the contrary, - suppose he just dropped his right hand lead from his guard position right down to his side - I wouldn't chase his arm/hand - I would simply punch into the line that is now completely open with my left fist (but I'd probably throw a low to medium height punch - not a head shot - so as to maintain control (and occupy) the line if he decided to immediately come back up again with that hand that he dropped.

okay that to me is a normal thing we would do.. there's the saying in wing chun, Yau Ying Da Ying Mo Ying Po Jong. which means if there is a shape you hit it, if there isn't a shape then fill the hole. what you discribed is straight up wing chun. he moved his hand (the shape) so there was no shape, so you filled the gap with your fist hitting the guy... it's wing chun mate...

Furthermore...I would NOT be moving toward him with my MAIN centerline directly facing his center...I would be in a more basic boxing type pose - which means that - in the example I just gave of him dropping his right arm down - and I was in a left lead stance...the left punch I would throw would look like a boxer's stiff straight lead - with body torgue and with the punch being thrown horizontally. (Not the vertical wing chun sun punch).

I personally prefer face on. but how you bai jong is a personal thing.. some people out here bai with one leg infront of another.

Because I'm assuming that the distance would require this type of punch (for extra reach). I'm not assuming that I'm already in a very close limb-to-limb contact or trapping range.

Which is a whole other issue to be addressed - distancing and footwork from a longer than typical 'wing chun' range.

Well, I hope you realise that these are typical ranges for us to train out here... For the first few years anyway...

But more about that maybe later.

But for right now...I'm using such a long range 'wing chun boxing' type strategy as a means to get closer to the inside close quarter position - while hopefully also landing punches (and possibly kicks)....as well as maybe beginning to trap, pin, pak, or lop an arm....but most of all - by CONTROLLING, OCCUPYING, AND GOING FORWARD on a 'centerline'.

In other words - I'm establishing a bridge through the use of longer range boxing technique - BUT GUIDED BY WING CHUN CENTERLINE PRINCIPLES.

(Or central line principles...take your pick. But's it's still Wing Chun).
[quote]

if it is wing chun, why were you saying it doesn't work and you use more boxing typ eprinciples eariler?

[quote]
And yet it's also something a little different than what some may have considered Wing Chun to be in the past.

the past is the past... this is now. just becuase some people considered wing chun to be a close up and chi sau only type of art doesn't mean it is.

WJL

Ultimatewingchun

08-10-2005, 02:35 PM

Edmund

08-10-2005, 05:52 PM

Seems like you still want to diss boxing even though I never brought it up. Very well. I think I can address your arguments against boxing ...

Reach is a factor, but using rounds or hooks cuts down on a man's reach. Two boxers equal in reach, one using hooks or round attack only can be kept away by the others jab. If you can hit me with any round movement, be it hook punches, spinning kicks or punches, round punches, round kicks I can hit you also at the same time with straight movements. You have already set the distance up so that your attack will connect with some part of my body, so therefore I don't have to worry about distance.

Hooks would be considered a shorter range technique and not a particularly large motion compared to a straight punch. Therefore your argument that it has less reach is misdirected.

Boxing does use straight techniques as well as you noted yourself. SO therefore they have the reach that you do if not more! Standing almost square-on and not turning your shoulders is reducing the reach of your straight punch.

Power, using round movements is generated by torque of the body, twists and shoulder turns, which gives the attacker using these movements less mobility. In my WC our power is generated by not rotating our bodies but by moving forward into our punch, staying almost square on in the upper torso (similar to pushing something), with the entire body behind it. This allows one to actually move and punch simultaneously (whether in attacking or retreating) more frequently over a period of time.

That reduces your reach. You have less. Also I think most boxers can manage to take a step as they turn their shoulder to throw a punch.

Regardless of what boxers do:
Trying to make your movements as small as possible does not always make them more efficient. Factors such as power, angle and reach also play a role.

Ultimatewingchun

08-10-2005, 08:37 PM

Good post, Edmund...

and when you wrote this:

"Boxing does use straight techniques as well as you noted yourself. SO therefore they have the reach that you do if not more! Standing almost square-on and not turning your shoulders is reducing the reach of your straight punch...."

***YOU REMINDED ME of something I wanted to say to WJL.

I had written this previously:

"Furthermore...I would NOT be moving toward him with my MAIN centerline directly facing his center...I would be in a more basic boxing type pose - which means that - in the example I just gave of him dropping his right arm down - and I was in a left lead stance...the left punch I would throw would look like a boxer's stiff straight lead - with body torgue and with the punch being thrown horizontally. (Not the vertical wing chun sun punch)."

***AND WJL responded with this:

"I personally prefer face on. but how you bai jong is a personal thing.. some people out here bai with one leg in front of another."

***AND THIS is a major difference in philosophy between myself and WJL.
So when I wrote this:

"...suppose he just dropped his right hand lead from his guard position right down to his side - I wouldn't chase his arm/hand - I would simply punch into the line that is now completely open with my left fist (but I'd probably throw a low to medium height punch - not a head shot - so as to maintain control (and occupy) the line if he decided to immediately come back up again with that hand that he dropped...."

AND WJL RESPONDED WITH:

"okay that to me is a normal thing we would do.. there's the saying in wing chun, Yau Ying Da Ying Mo Ying Po Jong. which means if there is a shape you hit it, if there isn't a shape then fill the hole. what you discribed is straight up wing chun. he moved his hand (the shape) so there was no shape, so you filled the gap with your fist hitting the guy... it's wing chun mate...(WJL)...

***HE MISSED MY POINT.

Which is that if you're square on all the time - you don't have the reach (and the speed that coming off the back foot with the heel slightly raised will give you) from anything further than a VERY CLOSE distance. (And I believe that the extra speed is critical against a very skilled fighter.) So when you use a lead leg somewhat - and some rotation and body torgue when throwing the punches in the situations that were just described - you have longer reach because you're no longer dependent on using your whole body to get in position in order to hit him "square on"...as well as the fact that the side body angle shows him less target (similar to boxing).

I only use a square on position when I'm very close AND HAVE ATTAINED SOME CONTROL over his body and movement...OR AS I'M ATTAINING IT...and at no other time.

sihing

08-10-2005, 08:57 PM

I'm not trying to diss boxing? I just don't agree with everything they do, is that okay??

Hooks should only be used when the arms are off centerline, and the center is exposed. When this happens you strike with your fists/palms from where ever they are. Initiating with hooks can be dangerous, unless you are so much more skilled than your opponent, but in the street that can be risky, since you no nothing of your opponents abilities.

Boxers do have more reach, agreed, since they are generally in a side on stance. The draw back with this is that they are unable to use the other hand simultaneously; it’s to far away and requires a twist/torque movement from the body to get into range. This requires more time to execute and can be seen easier than not having to twist/torque the body, so the idea of non telegraphic movement is more pronounced in WC than in Boxing IMO.

Boxers can step and slide when throwing punches, but who's to say I can't follow them in the process. One of the most effective advantages of the WC punch is it's ability to interrupt in mid stream and change direction towards it target (like a guided missile), this is much easier to do with simpler movements like the WC punch, and also since the movement is shorter, and finishes faster than most MA strikes, the follow-up with the other weapon is faster to adapt to the opponents position change.

Concerning short movements not being more efficient, I have to disagree with that statement. If I can generate the same or similar power level in my strikes using shorter movements or I can strike more than you in the same amount of time, I am using more efficient movements, pure physics boys...

James

unkokusai

08-10-2005, 08:57 PM

No, of course not. What I said was in response to Victor P's post, which he stated that if you just come in you WILL get hit by a variety punches by the boxer, to me this seems like he's guaranteeing absolutely that this is so. No one can guarantee anything will happen. There is always the possibility of getting hit by anyone, never mind the skilled fighter, and there is the possiblity that you will not get hit, it all depends on many variables, skill levels, attributes, etc.

James

Um...ok. So, are you saying you will NOT get hit? Do you envision a scenario in which you are doing your chain deal in punching range against a boxer and he doesn't hit you at all?

sihing

08-10-2005, 09:10 PM

Um...ok. So, are you saying you will NOT get hit? Do you envision a scenario in which you are doing your chain deal in punching range against a boxer and he doesn't hit you at all?

Well, if I have initiated an attack upon a boxer and am in the process of hitting him with some chain punches I find it highly unlikely that he will be able to hit me at the same time. He would definetly have to retreat and regroup and break contact range for that to happen. Think of it this way, if I extend both my arm fully outstretched in front of me and bring my hands together to form a triangle, and keep this point directed towards the boxers center, he will have to run into the edges of my fingers before his punches make contact with my head, correct? Change that extension of my hands and turn that into multiple punches down the center while advancing forward and you have my point. Plus I do not recommend standing square in front of anyone and attacking them from there, I would much rather flank them and attack from the side of their lead foot.

WC range is a step in closer to your opponent than a boxer's range, so I would also be crowding him in the process of hitting him. One could always retreat to kicking range and try to attack again but I could do the same once a loss of contact is made. Follow what goes right? The forward intention we use would apply here.

James

wongjunlam

08-10-2005, 09:32 PM

Interesting post, WKL...

Let me start by responding to this:

"If someone is just running forwards shooting out a bunch of centre line punches. then I agree, they deserve to get their head knocked off with a good hook. Running forwards with chain punches is a very very very basic technique which works against people with little or no real fighting skill. (i.e. your in a bar and some drunk winds up, you step in and chain punch him...) It will not work for the most part against a decent fighter who is mobile. Like I said this is not controlling the centre, this is running in blind flailing randomly. anyone with half ammount of skill can attack around the outside. If this is what you think I do.. and how we fight. I can assure you it is not. You can control the centre from the inside or the outside. from the Inside is far more dangerous becuase they can attack on the outside. if you can control the centre from the outside it is fair more difficult for them to attack you. This is a bit harder as it means utilising footwork to get on the outside (wing chun out here has more than just bik bou and trangular stepping) and staying on the outside while controling their arm and attacking." (WJL)

***VERY SIMILAR to the TWC perspective - especially the footwork to get to the outside remarks. Do you know what is meant by the Full Side Step in TWC? If so...does your style use it? Or the TWC Entry technique. Are you familiar with that? Does your style use it? What about foot placement vis-a-vis your opponent's feet? Any specific rules about that?[/FONT]

Like I said, I do not know all that much about What is done in Cheungs System so I cannot say if I know what the full side step is. although we have a move that fits the discription called Jing Zat bou, but it can be stepped sidewards or diagonally forwards. It's technically a half step (it's the first step of a stepping technique which we have called Ji Ji bou (Ji character step) Because we normally stand square on it is easy to move in this step to the left or right. For the most part it stays as a transitionary step which would be followed up with the second half of Ji Ji bou bringing us back close to the opponent on the outside. It can be worked on the inside as well

..........................

You also wrote this:

"Wing Chun favours having a distance where contact with bridges are available. But what most people dont realise is that to have and to keep a bridge is difficult and it takes skill and a lot of training. This is why we spend a long time training the "outside/distance" game. I don't know how much about wing chun on the mainland you know. But unlike most wing chun classes that I have heard abotu or seen in the west. We do not start off with forms and Chi Sau. We start off with individual fighting techniques and they are trained against a partner in both pre arranged and unarranged drills. nobody touches Chi Sau or bridging as such until nearly 3 years in...." (WJL)

***VERY INTERESTING. But a few questions: Why so long before ANY chi cao?
And how about some more detail about the pre-arranged and unarranged "outside/distance" drills and techniques?

WHy so long before Chi Sau?, I could ask Why start Chi Sau right away. It is our understanding that most of what is found in Chi Sau is also found in the distance fighting. although there is a difference. Lets take something we all have The wing chun straight punch. it is our believe that we need to be able to exicute this (and every other move) without any pressure or force added to the equation. once you are in Chi Sau, you have the opponents force on your arm which will alter how you punch. We believe you must be able to do the move perfectly without any press on the arms first, them be able to do it perfectly while striking something. Then finally to be able to do it perfectly while there is the pressure of the opponents arm on yours. I dont' feel I am explaining it all that well mind you.. We have the saying that if you cannot do it individually, or while fighting at a distance, you can't do it in Chi Sau.

Chi Sau is an exercise like a lot of other things in Wing Chun, it's main point is to teach you how to retain control and how to fight while someone is trying to control your arms/limbs. Situations like this can and do occur during a fight. but to us it is not fighting as such, just an exercise. for us we have two forms of fighting, which really blend into one. the 1st we call Lei Kyu Chi Da (fighting with out a bridge) and the second, chi kyu chi da (fighting with a bridge) in a fight there is no rolling hands, for the most part you will start at a distance, for the fight to happen you both need to get into some sort of range of each other, from here we use Lei Kyu to fight our way in to the Chi Kyu range, (as soon as limbs touch you are in Chi kyu range,) and once you are in there you should be able to control the opponent through training Chi Sau. Of Course chances are if he knows what he is doing, he might back away, and if you cannot keep the bridge then you are back into lei kyu.

In all reality, you can look at it as we use lei kyu to force the opponent to give us a bridge, (if they dont we just hit them, no need to chase bridges. a bit like your discription about boxing, he drops his arm, no need to chase it hit him. if he didnt drop his arm but moved it forward to meet yours then you are in Chi Kyu... once the bridge is got, (basically they've stopped out attack) through training chisau we should know how to get that arm out the way or to tie them up so we can hit them, if we are good at what we do the fight should be over pretty soon after that as we should not hit then back away, if we hit we keep hitting. (this does not mean chain punches. Wing Chun has a multitude of wonderful and vicious hand techniques you could punch with the first, palm with the second, elbow for third etc....

.................

And as for this:

"We all out here understand how important fighting at a distance is. And that is one of the beautiful things about Guangzhou wing chun, it is aimed at that, yet it does not use anything that is not found in Wing Chun (I do believe we have more hand methods than HK Wing Chun. at least from what I have seen of HK wing chun." (WJL)

***AGAIN...Of what you've seen of TWC - are some of the differences between Guanqzhou wing chun and other HK wing chun methods similar to the differences that exist between TWC and other HK methods?...............

I would say there is a big difference between what we do and what you do as well as between what we do and what HK wing chun does. as far as I can tell you guys have a bigger stance than hkwck? ours is slightly smaller, and out knees are brought in tight. I really need to see more to comment fairly though.

AND FINALLY: What is "Guanqzhou" wing chun. Is that a place. A city? A province? And who teaches this WC system? Do you trace it back to a specific Grandmaster?

EEp, I thought people would of known this. Guangzhou wing chun is the wing chun from guangzhou city in Guangdong province China. It's Jo Si is Sum Nung. Rene is/was learning this through Oi Lo Kei I beileve... it is sometimes called Sum Nung wing chun.. or Yuen Kei San Wing Chun..

WJL

unkokusai

08-10-2005, 09:34 PM

Well, if I have initiated an attack upon a boxer and am in the process of hitting him with some chain punches I find it highly unlikely that he will be able to hit me at the same time.

Well, I really think you have some unrealistic expectations.

sihing

08-10-2005, 09:42 PM

Well, I really think you have some unrealistic expectations.

LOL, this is funny. I'm supposed to have unrealistic expectations when I'm in the process of hitting a boxer, but the same is not true for the boxer hitting me?? Some on this forum are really mysteries in the making..

So please enlighten me unkokusai as to why a boxer has no problem countering me but I will have many problems countering him, I'm curious.....But before you do please remember the scenario has to do with two people training the same amount of time & intensity in their respective art with similar skill levels in each art.

James

unkokusai

08-10-2005, 09:52 PM

LOL, this is funny. I'm supposed to have unrealistic expectations when I'm in the process of hitting a boxer, but the same is not true for the boxer hitting me?? Some on this forum are really mysteries in the making..

So please enlighten me unkokusai as to why a boxer has no problem countering me but I will have many problems countering him, I'm curious.....But before you do please remember the scenario has to do with two people training the same amount of time & intensity in their respective art with similar skill levels in each art.

James

The thing is, you will be hard pressed to find a boxer who would say something silly like he won't get hit in this scenario or that, using this 'amazing' technique or that. A boxer won't say you won't hit him, he'll say he'll aim to hit you harder and more often. He'll be more...what is the word? REALISTIC.

sihing

08-10-2005, 10:10 PM

The thing is, you will be hard pressed to find a boxer who would say something silly like he won't get hit in this scenario or that, using this 'amazing' technique or that. A boxer won't say you won't hit him, he'll say he'll aim to hit you harder and more often. He'll be more...what is the word? REALISTIC.

Well if you read my post, I said while IN THE PROCESS of hitting him, that it would be UNLIKELY that he would be able to hit me at that same time. This doesn't mean he can't retreat and regroup, and then go from there. I'm sure if the boxer was given the same scenerio they would say similar. The idea is not that the "Technique is amazing or that" but that fact that one guy is getting bombarded with strikes coming at him in a very fast, powerful manner is the essence. If the same was happening to me it would be visa versa, I would have to retreat and regroup for sure. Once the advantage is obtained you try your best to maintain that advantage and finish them off. Also, its not like other weapons will not come into play. Personally I don't like just using the chain punches in a upright position, I would much rather soften them up first then sweep/throw/knock them down to the ground or into a kneeling position and continue the attack from there, this way their mobility is even more disabled. I also like to attack the high gates then switch lower (legs, lower abdomen) then back up to the upper gate, to further confuse them as to where the attacks are aiming. Lop sau's also work well here too, off balancing your opponent while striking them. So its not as simple as someone just sticking their hands out one after the other using a simple straightline movement with no variation in angle or target area.

James

unkokusai

08-10-2005, 10:33 PM

Well if you read my post, I said while IN THE PROCESS of hitting him, that it would be UNLIKELY that he would be able to hit me at that same time. This doesn't mean he can't retreat and regroup, and then go from there. I'm sure if the boxer was given the same scenerio they would say similar.

No, they wouldn't. Because a boxer trades in reality, which you don't seem quite so familiar with.

sihing

08-10-2005, 10:44 PM

No, they wouldn't. Because a boxer trades in reality, which you don't seem quite so familiar with.

Whooooooo......good come back, since you think you know exactly what I do everyday of the week, and since you know what every boxer thinks please keep on doing so. Another know it all with ultimate experience with all fighters I see here. And since when is boxing reality, when gloves and rules and ref's are involved? Hey neither you or I would want to step into the ring with Roy Jones JR, so lets not kid ourselves, but put someone in with similar skill sets and experience and I'd be glad to teach them a lesson or too.

I'm gone from this thread, it's gettin to stupid for my taste, please feel free to continue with your great thoughts on the subject at hand...Once again I've been proven why to stay away more often, Wing Chun practitioners dissing their own art on a Wing Chun forum....

James

unkokusai

08-10-2005, 10:49 PM

I'm gone from this thread, it's gettin to stupid for my taste,

You might have thought of that before you added so much 'stupid' to it!

lawrenceofidaho

08-10-2005, 10:51 PM

if I have initiated an attack upon a boxer and am in the process of hitting him with some chain punches I find it highly unlikely that he will be able to hit me at the same time. He would definetly have to retreat and regroup and break contact range for that to happen.
No he wouldn't.......

Most boxers in that situation would initially "shell up" for cover, then use upperbody movement and some lateral footwork to either gain a more favorable angle or move in closer to crowd your punches. Then they'd begin firing away with hooks and uppercuts to counter.

A few boxers do have a "running" style, but they are generally those with great footwork and outside hand speed. Once they see that you like to be so aggressive at mid and close range, they'll make sure to keep you at a distance.... You'll have a difficult time catching up with a guy like that while he sticks and moves. (Unless, of course, you train with someone on a regular basis who can move like that, and you are also well conditioned.)

-Lawrence

sihing

08-10-2005, 10:51 PM

You might have thought of that before you added so much 'stupid' to it!

Geez, how does one respond to such keen wit and quick responses such as this......

lawrenceofidaho

08-10-2005, 10:53 PM

No, they wouldn't. Because a boxer trades in reality, which you don't seem quite so familiar with.
Thanks for saving me the trouble of pointing this out to James.......

James,
I know you respect and trust your Sifu, but you have got to get out more.....

Wing Chun is a great martial art, but there are other great ones too that are definitely worth knowing about FIRSTHAND!

No one here is saying that Wing Chun sucks, and you should give it up (except for maybe Knifefighter), but there is a whole world out there that would probably amaze you if you took the time to actually see what it was about instead of assuming that you (or your Sifu) already have every possible answer to all things combat related, and that everyone else can only hope for "second best."

-Lawrence

unkokusai

08-10-2005, 10:57 PM

Geez, how does one respond to such keen wit and quick responses such as this......

I imagine you drool a lot and 'chain punch' your keyboard.

sihing

08-10-2005, 11:13 PM

No he wouldn't.......

Most boxers in that situation would initially "shell up" for cover, then use upperbody movement and some lateral footwork to either gain a more favorable angle or move in closer to crowd your punches. Then they'd begin firing away with hooks and uppercuts to counter.

A few boxers dohave a "running" style, but they are generally those with great footwork and outside hand speed. Once they see that you like to be so aggressive at mid and close range, they'll make sure to keep you at a distance.... You'll have a difficult time catching up with a guy like that while he sticks and moves. (Unless, of course, you train with someone on a regular basis who can move like that, and you are also well conditioned.)

-Lawrence

So then the "shell up for cover" is the counter of all counters now. Who's to say I can't get around or prevent the cover up from happening in the first place. And who's to say I can't stay with his upper body movement and lateral footwork to continue the attack, while alternating my attack to his legs. Who's to say I can't counter there hooks and uppercuts just like he can counter my attacks??? Also I did say in my post that the boxer would more than likely have to retreat and disengage a bit to regroup and then go from there. Sounds similar to what you said above Lawrence. Remember were talking about equal ground here, not like like the examples you guys always like to use (the average WC practitioner with limited training time avaliable during the work week vs. the pro athelete that trains all day with each and everyone helping them along the way). Does the average boxer, training 5 to 8 hours a week have that much of an advantage over a WC practitioner with the same amount of training time in on the street?
Also, remember the intensity, training methodology is the same, so I'm not talking about a WC guy that does forms all week, but one that does conditioning, sparring drills and uses his technqiues in realistic training atmosphere's.

I find these reply's to post present nothing in the terms of HOW these boxers are supposedly going to apply these counters. I know there are counters to everything, but you guys never explain why, just that this is how they are going to counter, and we all are supposed to take it as gospel. Basically it comes down to apples and oranges. They have there way of doing things and we have ours. It's never about their way doesn't work or isn't at the least effective, because if it wasn't effective they wouldn't be doing it in the first place, but for every counter you can come up with from the boxers/thai/grappler's perspective I can do the same using WC. If you do not believe me, prove otherwise with logical responses and specific reasons why you think this way.

James

lawrenceofidaho

08-10-2005, 11:24 PM

put someone in with similar skill sets and experience and I'd be glad to teach them a lesson or too.
Dude, I'm afraid that someone your age and size in MMA with less than half of your training time would be teaching you a lot of lessons........

Not to say that your training time has been a waste, but you would immediately see the need for some modifications and filling in some gaps.

I think you owe it to your students (who look up to you), to make sure that what you're teaching them is not just untested, theoretical BS, and that it actually works against decent practicioners of other styles (not just another inexperienced WC guy trying to mimic the moves of that style, but has no idea what he's doing.)

-Lawrence

sihing

08-10-2005, 11:30 PM

Thanks for saving me the trouble of pointing this out to James.......

James,
I know you respect and trust your Sifu, but you have got to get out more.....

Wing Chun is a great martial art, but there are other great ones too that are definitely worth knowing about FIRSTHAND!

No one here is saying that Wing Chun sucks, and you should give it up (except for maybe Knifefighter), but there is a whole world out there that would probably amaze you if you took the time to actually see what it was about instead of assuming that you (or your Sifu) already have every possible answer to all things combat related, and that everyone else can only hope for "second best."

-Lawrence

Lawrence,

With all due respect you know nothing about me, or what investigations into other Martial/Fighting Arts I have or have not done, nor do you have any idea as to what my Sifu has or has not done in his Martial Arts career(your perspective would immediately change upon meeting the man), so why even try to give advice to someone you no little about. Trying to make a judgement of a individual based on what they say on a internet forum, is a poor use of intelligence IMO. In reality I respect each and every indivdual that has first of all taken up the practice of Martial Arts, regardless of what style it is. Secondly, each Martial Artist that has obtained any type of high quality skills in any of the 1000's of styles avaliable to them today is dangerous, and should never be taken lightly, so if you think I am under estimating someone because they are not WC practitioners you are hugely mistaken. So never think that just because I've been practicing WC for 17yrs and teaching for 14yrs that I have a inflated vision of my abilities in the art. I know that my natural instinct is not that of a natural fighter, I've had to work dam hard to gain the skills I possess today, and just because I'm not as active in the areas of sparring and conditioning as some others on this forum doesn't mean that I have no skills in fighting or WC. Each of us is at a stage of development, experience and skill to which no one can judge or make judgement towards. Until we all walk in each others shoes, judegements should be keep out of it.

James

Edmund

08-10-2005, 11:41 PM

I'm not trying to diss boxing? I just don't agree with everything they do, is that okay??

Well I didn't raise the issue of boxing, you did - to illustrate "inefficient" movement.
I just stated the size of the movement is not the only factor in determining it's efficiency - something you don't agree with yet haven't rebutted directly with any logical argument.

Concerning short movements not being more efficient, I have to disagree with that statement. If I can generate the same or similar power level in my strikes using shorter movements or I can strike more than you in the same amount of time, I am using more efficient movements, pure physics boys...

I did not state short movements are not more efficient, I said the size of the movement isn't the only factor. The physics of someone using a longer reaching technique is pretty simple. A position where you can't reach him but he can reach you is not that hard to picture. It's fairly inefficient for you.

IMO the theory of keeping square-on in sparring all the time is going to fall short of the ideal. No doubt lots of people like that method but I think some actual sparring is going to show where that limits your reach.

lawrenceofidaho

08-10-2005, 11:49 PM

So then the "shell up for cover" is the counter of all counters now. Who's to say I can't get around or prevent the cover up from happening in the first place. And who's to say I can't stay with his upper body movement and lateral footwork to continue the attack, while alternating my attack to his legs. Who's to say I can't counter there hooks and uppercuts just like he can counter my attacks???
Boxers deal with the pressure of heavy combinations each time they go into the gym. They are used to it.......

Are you used to a boxer's response when your attack doesn't drop your opponent quickly the way you hoped it would?

Also I did say in my post that the boxer would more than likely have to retreat and disengage a bit to regroup and then go from there.

James, if you read my post again, I didn't say anything about either retreating or disengaging. I was saying that most boxers will not do that, except for the handful that have cultivated a "running" (stick and move) style.

I find these reply's to post present nothing in the terms of HOW these boxers are supposedly going to apply these counters. I know there are counters to everything, but you guys never explain why, just that this is how they are going to counter, and we all are supposed to take it as gospel. Basically it comes down to apples and oranges. They have there way of doing things and we have ours. It's never about their way doesn't work or isn't at the least effective, because if it wasn't effective they wouldn't be doing it in the first place, but for every counter you can come up with from the boxers/thai/grappler's perspective I can do the same using WC. If you do not believe me, prove otherwise with logical responses and specific reasons why you think this way.

Of course there are counters to everything, but it would lend a lot more credence to what you are saying if you, yourself, had actually ever made any of these counters work, against say; an amateur boxer with a few years experience and a dozen 3-rounders in the ring, or a Muay Thai guy who's had a few fights, or a BJJ purple belt, etc.

I train with guys like this every week, and so when I hear you talk about how easy it would be to exploit their comparitively primitive, "second-best" styles with your pure, classic Wing Chun, it makes me shake my head because I know they are good and can fight a lot better than you think they can.

-Lawrence

sihing

08-10-2005, 11:52 PM

Dude, I'm afraid that someone your age and size in MMA with less than half of your training time would be teaching you a lot of lessons........

Not to say that your training time has been a waste, but you would immediately see the need for some modifications and filling in some gaps.

I think you owe it to your students (who look up to you), to make sure that what you're teaching them is not just untested, theoretical BS, and that it actually works against decent practicioners of other styles (not just another inexperienced WC guy trying to mimic the moves of that style, but has no idea what he's doing.)

-Lawrence

Listen Man, let me ask you something. What are you basing this on?? I will admit that everyone can improve and become more effective, me included. If I were to train hard again there would be lots of room for improvement, but I'm not talking about me or about any indivdual, do you understand that. I never look at individuals when looking at particular systems or styles, I look exclusively at what that system or style teaches. Of course there are gifted, motivated individuals that will make whatever the learn in the MA effective, that is a given, but can other's duplicate what they can do, or is it only that individual that makes it work. What I like the most about WC is the fact that most anyone (those without physical disabilities like MS or something similiar) can use it without alteration to the technique or movements of the system. Over the years we/myself have taught young people, old people, people in wheelchairs, people with bad backs, necks, shoulders, leg, knees, etc. all without alteration or adaption because of their limitation. Can the MMA systems say the same? WC transends limitations and makes them as effective as they are capable. Never have I said that all practitioners of my WC are deadly fighters, because not all will put the required effort into obtaining skills like that, but all are capable of it, because I have witnessed it myself.

Another thing, the least of my worries is how effective of a fighter a am or am not. I have much more important things to worry/think about in life than this. I have faith in what I have learned and believe it or not I do not live in a closet, I have experience with other Martial Arist from different styles/systems since I have been teching for years and years now. And I have investigated other Martial Arts systems, over the last decade+, and although I have seen allot of great athletes performing, none of them has impressed me as much as what I have learned and who I have learned it from. IMO WC is one of the most complete Martial Arts avaliable today, contrary to popular opinion on this forum.

James

sihing

08-11-2005, 12:20 AM

Boxers deal with the pressure of heavy combinations each time they go into the gym. They are used to it.......

Are you used to a boxer's response when your attack doesn't drop your opponent quickly the way you hoped it would?

James, if you read my post again, I didn't say anything about either retreating or disengaging. I was saying that most boxers will not do that, except for the handful that have cultivated a "running" (stick and move) style.

Of course there are counters to everything, but it would lend a lot more credence to what you are saying if you, yourself, had actually ever made any of these counters work, against say; an amateur boxer with a few years experience and a dozen 3-rounders in the ring, or a Muay Thai guy who's had a few fights, or a BJJ purple belt, etc.

I train with guys like this every week, and so when I hear you talk about how easy it would be to exploit their comparitively primitive, "second-best" styles with your pure, classic Wing Chun, it makes me shake my head because I know they are good and can fight a lot better than you think they can.

-Lawrence

Well then if you have no faith in what I say then ignore my posts, simple as that. I ignore Victor P's post because I have witnessed the man in action live, and we all know what I think about his skills. He spars all the time and IMO no improvement is apparent since I last saw him live in 90', this is not a personal issue, just me stating what I think. He does the same to me not based on seeing me in action, because he never has, but because of what I have said about him. Remember on a forum like this, regardless of what you have done in your life, when you post it on here it is all theory/concept/principal to the rest of us. I don't expect or care if anyone believe's what I have to say about WC. The point is to discuss things and share opinions, period.

Lawrence, it's great that you have a strong desire to explore MA outside of the WC you have learned. Not everyone feels the same nor do they have to do the same as you to achieve effectiveness in self defense or combat IMO.

James

lawrenceofidaho

08-11-2005, 12:30 AM

you know nothing about me, or what investigations into other Martial/Fighting Arts I have or have not done, nor do you have any idea as to what my Sifu has or has not done in his Martial Arts career(your perspective would immediately change upon meeting the man), so why even try to give advice to someone you no little about.
Every time I have seen you post about how you would deal with this style, or that style, it becomes pretty obvious how little firsthand experience you have with grapplers, boxers, and Muay Thai stylists. If you actually trained with these guys once in a while, you would see that they don't do the inept things that you seem to always expect that they will....... -So, no, I have not read your martial arts biography, but I don't need to in order to tell that you don't work with guys in those arts.

Trying to make a judgement of a individual based on what they say on a internet forum, is a poor use of intelligence IMO.
James, the only personal "judgement" I have made of you, is that I think you are a good guy and nice person........ The fact that we often seem to be in disagreement when we interact on this forum does not mean that I can't see a person past their martial arts opinions and experience.

Each of us is at a stage of development, experience and skill to which no one can judge or make judgement towards.
There is nothing wrong with not knowing. Just be honest when you offer an opinion that it might not be a particularly informed one. -I don't care that my coaches don't have all the answers, but I would be PI$$ED at them if they confidently assured me that they knew what they were talking about, and then their naive advice caused me to get my A$$ handed to me in a fight.

-Why not say; "Well, I've never sparred with a good Thai fighter before, but I've been shown a couple of basic drills for defending and countering lead round kicks from my Sifu." That's being straight about it....... Don't make the mistake of believing that just because you got smooth at working a couple of those drills with some other WC guys from class means that you're an expert at dealing with Muay Thai and convince others that you really know quite a bit about something you've never dealt with firsthand. (No student or athelete can ever resent an instructor or coach who is upfront with them like that.)

-Lawrence

lawrenceofidaho

08-11-2005, 12:38 AM

Well then if you have no faith in what I say then ignore my posts
I don't think it's wise to take what anyone says on faith. We have to see for ourselves what it's all about. In this case, I'm talking about making Wing Chun "your own", and not an untested, secondhand copy of someone else's.

-Lawrence

Thaegen

08-11-2005, 04:03 AM

Well I agree with Sihing.

I am doing WT now for 20 months. 20 months is not much, I am a low grade, but I train around 15hours a week in it. I also believe that conditioning/pyshic is extremly important. Your technique means nothing when you are out of breath.

I also do Muay Thai, only 3 hours a week and I can say that WT can win against someone who does MT. I fought against MTs with also around 2years experience without those 12oz gloves, but with fingerfree gloves and headgear. The only rules are 2 rounds of 2 minutes. Elbows are allowed, knees etc...
And well it doesn't takes 2 minutes to end it.
You have to be agressive, close the distance so fast as possible, take the iniative and never stop going forward and attacking. It's like water, it doesn't stop either, if there is obstacle you go like water around it. If you get hit, deal with, don't stop attacking.

Someone mentioned that a boxers covers up, protect his face with both fist in front of his face, well if you do that without gloves, you are going to get a free ticket to a hospital.

I work as a police officer and WT works in violent and unpredicatable situations. I've been in a couple of fights and if you train realistic and hard. WT/WC is everything you need.

You need to fight to be good at it. You need to feel the pain of getting hit, the adrealine shots, your sight that gets smaller etc. But if you train hard and are commited to it WT/WC has everything. You DON'T need to mix it with another MA. And ofcourse you need to be willing to inflict pain.

It matters for every MA, it's the person who makes the MA good. If you don't have a fighting spirit, if you don't have the character, the physical attributes, the conditioning you will never be good in using your MA.

So for me WT is the MA. I don't need other MA to fill the gaps, because if there are gaps it's because you fail to use your MA.

I do MT because I like the workouts and the padwork. But I don't need to use punches or kicks from MT to make my WT work.

Ultimatewingchun

08-11-2005, 05:13 AM

"James,
I know you respect and trust your Sifu, but you have got to get out more....." (lawrenceofidaho)

***Ha! Ha! Ha! :D

(And until he does - the guy will remain on my IGNORE list.)

I haven't read any of his posts on this thread, but from what people like yourself (and others) have been quoting from him - and the responses you guys have been making to his comments...

Nothing has changed. :p

...........now back to reality..............

Mark Swiadas

08-11-2005, 06:35 AM

"My Level 12 Wing Chun Fighter would use his wand to shoot fireballs at the Level 15 Boxer."

"But the Level 20 Boxer uses his 'Gloves of Shelling +5' to defend against the Level 5 Wing Chun Fighter's Chain Punch special attack!"

Oops, sorry, I was starting to think this was a Wing Chun/D&D Roleplaying Forum, from the way some of these posts read!

I was originally going to pose a statement and a question, but the statement became far to statistically-oriented and I doubt anyone would have read it, so I dumped it. So on to the question!...

I've had my own experiences with boxers covering up, "shelling", etc. What have been the experiences of others with boxers' "shelling" when they aren't wearing gloves and the competitors are not limited to strikes with the hands?

Spark

08-11-2005, 07:47 AM

hazhardy

08-11-2005, 08:35 AM

dudes, the amount of time it's taken y'all to drift of the topic, coulda been spent on a useful sparring session.tut tut.
yeah, so spar,,and mix the wing chun in.
cool.
hza

Merryprankster

08-11-2005, 09:19 AM

You have to be agressive, close the distance so fast as possible, take the iniative and never stop going forward and attacking.

Oh, will you please?! I would LOVE for somebody to do this to me. It makes my prefered range of operation MUCH easier to get to, and makes it MUCH easier for me to create small angles I need to get a takedown.

sihing

08-11-2005, 09:33 AM

Every time I have seen you post about how you would deal with this style, or that style, it becomes pretty obvious how little firsthand experience you have with grapplers, boxers, and Muay Thai stylists. If you actually trained with these guys once in a while, you would see that they don't do the inept things that you seem to always expect that they will....... -So, no, I have not read your martial arts biography, but I don't need to in order to tell that you don't work with guys in those arts.

James, the only personal "judgement" I have made of you, is that I think you are a good guy and nice person........ The fact that we often seem to be in disagreement when we interact on this forum does not mean that I can't see a person past their martial arts opinions and experience.

There is nothing wrong with not knowing. Just be honest when you offer an opinion that it might not be a particularly informed one. -I don't care that my coaches don't have all the answers, but I would be PI$$ED at them if they confidently assured me that they knew what they were talking about, and then their naive advice caused me to get my A$$ handed to me in a fight.

-Why not say; "Well, I've never sparred with a good Thai fighter before, but I've been shown a couple of basic drills for defending and countering lead round kicks from my Sifu." That's being straight about it....... Don't make the mistake of believing that just because you got smooth at working a couple of those drills with some other WC guys from class means that you're an expert at dealing with Muay Thai and convince others that you really know quite a bit about something you've never dealt with firsthand. (No student or athelete can ever resent an instructor or coach who is upfront with them like that.)

-Lawrence

To be truthful I don't have as much experience with MT/Grapplers, or whoever else as lots posters on here have. But I do have experience with them, and in reality a kick is a kick, and punch is a punch, when you utilize a universal principal. Yes of course if I were to meet a pro MT boxer, his power would be surprising to me and may be overwhelming, but the idea behind the WC concept is to not trade blows with the guy, but to bridge the gap, get in close and finish the man off. There are many way to do this, and if you like we can start another thread to discuss it.

My point is always this, I my self may or may not have the ability to actually compete against a well trained/conditioned MT/grappler competitor, but I'm not talking about MY INDIVIDUAL ABILITIES, but what this art of Wing Chun has taught me to deal with any or all stylist. In the WC I have practiced and teach, there is an answer to everything. Now, whether or not a particular practitioner can apply this against an aggressive attack from another system is something else, but this also applies to the other stylist, can they apply what they know against us? You see if a system is built upon strength and speed attributes (physical attributes) then you have a basic flaw within it. Not everyone can apply arts like this because not everyone can use strength and speed effectively. Wing Chun is a skill attribute based Martial Art, meaning it relies on timing, distance control, positioning, perception skill, technical skill, and high understanding of the concepts behind the system to develop effectiveness in the practitioner. Yes, one has to have some sort of speed and strength behind it to put make it all work, but the average sized woman has enough natural strength and speed to make it work, and doesn't have to increase any of those physical attributes to be effective in the art. Now, please don't go on to tell me that MT or Boxing is just as skilled based as WC, because if that were so, old guys would be competing successfully with it. Yes, these arts do require skills to make it work, coordination, timing and so forth, but in essence they also require high level conditioning to make them work. WC does also to work against high level fighters, but not to the same extent as these other arts. When I tested for my Sifu level, I proved something very important to myself, that the art still works even when you are out of shape. For that test I had 2 guys, my Sihing and another instructor my same level and experience attacking me hard and randomly, with anything and everything, kicks, punches, shoots, grabs, push/pulls, knives, clubs, etc over a 15 minute period of time. I was totally burned out but was able to defend each attack successfully. Now even though these guys were my classmates, don't think there intentions were to take it easy on me. Their goal was to hit me if they could, plain and simple. I, due to some personal issues, had not practiced, stretched for about 5 or 6 months prior to the test, the only thing I was doing was working out and going to the bar. The stuff still worked, so when people say that conditioning is the be all end all of fighting I respectfully disagree.

Now I do agree with you Lawrence that I could learn lots from people that train in other MA systems. We can learn something from everyone we meet in life. And I do respect all Martial Arts, and the practitioners that practice them. But IMO WC is effective against whatever they have to offer, and can be dealt with successfully, when WC is 1)understood to a high level, 2) practiced over and over, consistently and persistently, 3) taught by someone qualified and has a high understanding of the concepts and principals behind the art.

James

Ultimatewingchun

08-11-2005, 04:08 PM

dudes, the amount of time it's taken y'all to drift of the topic, coulda been spent on a useful sparring session.tut tut.
yeah, so spar,,and mix the wing chun in.
cool.
hza

***YOU'RE RIGHT, hza...

So how about it, WJL? What do you say to my last post that actually discussed strategy and technique? Or what Lawrence had to say? Or anything that actually pertains to sparring/fighting? (Perhaps if we ignore certain people's unrealistic remarks that always seem to be an attempt to hijack threads on sparring or mixing of styles...they will get the message. And I'm not talking about you, WJL).

A lot of time gets wasted dealing with false objections and illusions as to what wing chun can and cannot do in a real situation.

Fajing

08-11-2005, 05:28 PM

Wow, so much talk about real fighting. How many street fights have anyone been in? I, at 29, have olny encoutered 2, and that's it. Both were by SURPRISE. I don't care what style you train in, it still depends on the individual. MMA, MMA, MMA...bla, bla, bla. If we are still talking about the STREET, being ready in other ways may be more important than mixing your BJJ with MT. Guess what, in reality people don't attack you if they think they're gonna lose. They most likely (practically never) aren't MMA competitors, they will MOST LIKELY take you by surprise, and most importantly, will be armed, which will instantly destroy your HUGE EGO concerning empty hand fighting. A bat, knife, stun gun, pepper spray, or GUN change everything. Hell, any usefull object. RUNNING is usually the best answer. Being prepared does not necessarily mean mixing empty hand styles, it means being aware of your surroundings and how to successfully flee. I have a perfect example, which happened to a close friend. One night a group of guys were coming home from a guys night out. A car passed them in a crazy fashion. My friend got ****ed (because he's imature) and passed the car back. Then the road rage insued. Both cars pulled over. One of the guys with my friend (A ranger, just out of the military, good JJ and Hapkido practitioner) bolted from the car, ready to rumble. When he approached the other car, the driver stepped out and shoved a knife straight through his heart. He never saw it coming, and was dead before he hit the ground. PRIDE will always get you in a load of SH*T. In reality no one tosses their weapon aside and says, "Okay, let's have a fair fight." THEY WANT TO WIN! Therefore they will probably be armed and take you by surprise! Now, if we are again talking about MMA tounaments then I guess your BJJ mixed with TKD mixed with JUDO mixed with High school wrestling, mixed with ARM wrestling, mixed with Hacky Sack........will do you some good. Since SO MANY people in this forum fight in these events, when are they broadcasted(if so)? How much do you get paid? Are we talkin UFC, or is this all private and simply done for the sake of PRIDE? PEACE UP A-TOWN KICK IT!!!!! :D

Liddel

08-11-2005, 07:25 PM

Wow i cant believe that there are people discussing things with such certain and concrete outcomes.
"If im in a left leg lead stance against a guy with his right foot foward and if i give a jab and he" ....bla bla....
Guys this is too finite, any fighting action has its way out/counter, every submission, every punch, every kick.
Its ones ability to use correct TIMING that makes you have the upper hand over an opponent, we all know this !
"Are you saying if you spar against a boxer, you wont get hit"
you cant say for CERTAIN one way or the other.
I can if he aint looking at me ! you can to.

Some of the posts i refer to are just theoretical conjecture and mere speculatiuon and to argue over it is deluding yourself. There have been some good remarks but for some you need to, Open your minds....
IMO, i think its ALL possible !

Ultimatewingchun

08-11-2005, 07:33 PM

But you see, Fajing...I see your insightful post about the nature and the psychology of streetfights in a world where it's all about winning and taking people by surprise AS ALL THE MORE REASON TO CROSSTRAIN !!!

And by that I mean the following: Anything can happen.

And therefore I want as many different kinds of weapons and options in my bag of tricks (both physically and mentally) as I can possibly have...because in the end - all real confrontations have to be improvised and worked out (strategically and tactically) on the spot.

They can't be planned in advance.

I want to be able to punch, kick, or wrestle at a moment's notice.
Perhaps even changing such gears in the blink of an eye.
Or suddenly pull out something and use it as a weapon of thrust or slash.
Or something else as a weapon to swing with.
Or to turn and run.
Or to suddenly stop, turn around, and explode into the man persuing me.
Or to just sudddenly do a level change and take out his legs - putting him on his back.
Or maybe a hook to his gut.
A lop da or pak da while punching or palming striking a head or face target.

Might even use my car as a weapon.

Or my cellphone as a means of calling for help or backup.

Without having to stop and think.

Just be able to let IT take over the fight (ie.- the situation) for me.

And you know what all of the above requires? More than anything else?

AN OPEN MIND.

There are no limitations and there are no hard and fast rules of fighting (or manuevering) that can't be broken or over-ruled by something else.

sihing

08-11-2005, 08:16 PM

***YOU'RE RIGHT, hza...

So how about it, WJL? What do you say to my last post that actually discussed strategy and technique? Or what Lawrence had to say? Or anything that actually pertains to sparring/fighting? (Perhaps if we ignore certain people's unrealistic remarks that always seem to be an attempt to hijack threads on sparring or mixing of styles...they will get the message. And I'm not talking about you, WJL).

A lot of time gets wasted dealing with false objections and illusions as to what wing chun can and cannot do in a real situation.

I'm curious Victor, what exactly in your expert opinion can WC do and not Do? Does WC have counters for punching attacks? Yes. Does WC have counters for kicking attacks? Yes. Does WC teach tactics to deal with light footed fighters? Yes. Does WC have counters for grapplers and their attempts to get you to the ground and while on the ground? Yes. Does WC teach how to knife fight? Yes. Does WC teach how to fight with Clubs, sticks, swords, various weapons? Yes. Does WC teach how to defend these same things? Yes. What else is there?

How effectively one uses these tactics is up to them, depending on their individual training practices and understanding of what they are learning, but the ability is there and the Art supplies the answers when needed.

James

P.S. Since Vic is ignoring my post, someone may have to quote this and send it to Vic for answer, but each and all are free to answer as well.

Fajing

08-11-2005, 08:18 PM

Might even use my car as a weapon.

And that would be a d*mn effective one!!!!
:D

hazhardy

08-12-2005, 04:33 AM

nerds.
go out and spar and take one to the eye like i did last night at class.
fcuk that hurt, but get out there and feel the pain instead of calculating your fighting moves/counters/submitions/puches/willy thrusts, in text on a fcuking computer like a game of chess.
jeez. u guys seem too intelligent for your own good. spar so u loose some braincells. ha.
cool.
hza

IRONMONK

08-12-2005, 06:57 AM

lets see some video clips of wc against boxers/kickboxers etc

Sillywabbit

08-12-2005, 08:47 AM

lets see some video clips of wc against boxers/kickboxers etc
Out of all these Wing Chun talkers there will be no one on here that has any video of themselves fighting full contact against a skilled boxer because on paper it sounds good but for real they would get stomped.

Fajing

08-12-2005, 09:52 AM

Out of all these Wing Chun talkers there will be no one on here that has any video of themselves fighting full contact against a skilled boxer because on paper it sounds good but for real they would get stomped.

Of course not! Nor will there be any MMA fighters on here with clips or videos of them competing in MMA tournaments against Wing Chun practitioners or any other types of fighters whether it's Boxing, MT, or even TKD.
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

fa_jing

08-12-2005, 10:17 AM

It wouldn't surprise me if a couple of these guys could throw down, but only if they've already trained boxing and against boxers. My sifu, for one was a skilled amateur boxer and also is skilled with WC and JKD. He's OTH now, but I've put up videos before of our sparring sessions, heavy bag etc. He thinks WC is good but agrees with all the criticism too, dry land swimming etc. He did well in Cage/NHB matches about 15 years ago. sorry no vids of that. IMO there's nothing wrong with WC that isn't wrong with any other dogmatic school of training.

fa_jing

08-12-2005, 10:21 AM

LOL@ these long posts, too, as if eloquence mattered. There was an interesting discussion with WJM somewhere in here, seems like a guy with some new info.

sihing

08-12-2005, 10:50 AM

This is a internet forum, so if all you do is write about how you kicked the sh!t out of someone or how your a$$ got handed to you without explaination of the how's or why's, then what is the point? Everything everyone writes on here is theoretical since we are not in person to person contact at someone's school or house or where ever. I'm sure the discussions between all of us we be much different if they were in person, that way physical examples would be used much more.

James

fa_jing

08-12-2005, 12:06 PM

you could make an effort to be more concise. It isn't all technical discussion. You aren't the only one, either. If you talk people's ears off they'll jump over your posts. Maybe throw in a couple jokes to keep things interesting. Cognitive Science research shows that if you can make people laugh, you'll hold their interest more.

then again I haven't been a regular on this forum for a while and I have no stake in it. Just a little push, take it or leave it. cheers

Merryprankster

08-12-2005, 12:32 PM

Of course not! Nor will there be any MMA fighters on here with clips or videos of them competing in MMA tournaments against Wing Chun practitioners or any other types of fighters whether it's Boxing, MT, or even TKD.

Careful what ya say :D

I actually have a clip of me in an MMA fight. I have nowhere to host it, but I have posted it before in the past via a friend's now defunct website.

Ultimatewingchun

08-12-2005, 02:06 PM

Send it to Phil Redmond. He can host it and post it on this forum. I sent him some sparring/grappling clips of myself and one of my students some months ago that he posted here.

fa_jing

08-12-2005, 02:33 PM

I've seen it. Basically a tough looking Muy thai guy launches a committed cross at Merry, who deftly weaves his head to avoid the punch's impact while dropping to his knee, gets the takedown, grabs the guy's ankle and pretty quickly rolls into an ankle lock. The kind of thing that make one want to cry, give up kung fu and start taking Jiu-Jitsu. :mad: :D Fight was over in less than a minute, right?

It's still worth looking at, though. :)

Hey Merry, I really enjoyed the Judo comp clip where you got a full wheel throw or whatever the thing is called.

Merryprankster

08-12-2005, 02:59 PM

fa_jing,

I think it may have been longer than a minute. I was just learning how to pass guard effectively at the time (Imagine an ex-wrestler without a top game!) because I was mostly a guard player at the time. So I was sort of like "Man, I really want to pass this guys guard."

Then he tried to up kick me in the face, and I decided that winning was more important than anything else. I actually remember thinking "Gee, if this guy manages to get up, I'm going to have to take him down again." Plus Lloyd was yelling at me to take his ankle.

As it happens, I just went through my vid clips and I seem to have deleted that one. I do have several of me grappling, and one of me falling out of the ring while sparring (boxing) with Apoweyn.

"Hey Merry, I really enjoyed the Judo comp clip where you got a full wheel throw or whatever the thing is called."

I think it was a Harai Goshi, where I completely upended the guy. He was from France and stank of stale cigarettes and wine. (No lie). I don't think he was drunk. He was a black belt, so it was kind of nice to beat him - and boy was he ****ED about getting launched by a nothing belt. Yelling in incomprehensible english...

That was a very interesting day. I was competing in my division (I hold no rank in Judo, and compete in the 2nd Brown Belt and under division), and the Black Belt division. I was bouncing back and forth between mats all day, and had about 9 or 10 matches. That was my 7th or 8th. My third to last match was against a BJJ/Judo guy who was JUST good enough on the ground to avoid getting pinned, and I was too tired to shuck off one of his takedown attempts. He beat me by a koka (lowest score possible).

My next match in that division was with somebody whose arm I had popped three or four times earlier but refused to tap (there is a "wrestle back" bracket, and he had managed to make it back into contention for first place.) I asked if he was ok, and he said after the first match "I'm not much for tapping." I thought that was stupid so I walked off saying "I'd rather train than be out for six weeks with a busted arm." I was exhausted by the time I got to him the second time so I remembered which arm was injured and flying armbarred him. Strangely, he tapped like he was playing the drums. His coach non-chalantly said over his shoulder as he was passing by "We're going to work on getting you out of armbars...."

So I took second in my division, had a short, short break, walked back over into the match that would have gotten me into the medaling rounds in the black belt division, opened with an uchi mata (inner thigh throw), without a good balance break, and promptly got launched six feet into the air with te guruma. I landed with all of my momentum and my opponents, on my left shoulder, which, like any good joint would under such circumstances, went "oh ****!" and popped out of socket.

Hellooooooooo shoulder surgery! The resultant time for self-reflection has actually improved my jiujitsu 100%. No lie. I was better at BJJ the first day I stepped back on the mat than I was before my injury.

UWC - if I were to send some clips, what would you like to see? I have an assortment.

Fajing

08-12-2005, 03:00 PM

Basically a tough looking Muy thai guy launches a committed cross at Merry, who deftly weaves his head to avoid the punch's impact while dropping to his knee, gets the takedown, grabs the guy's ankle and pretty quickly rolls into an ankle lock.

NICE! :)

hazhardy

08-13-2005, 06:58 AM

juss thought i'd share, passed me red one grading this morning,,, pretty knarly...
jus lookin' forward to the next sparr session.....

although,, i was watching best of british boxing this morning on Bravo channel,, and the commentators said something interesting which was : -
''Although,, Nigel Benn only spars sparingly''
i thought that was interesting,,,because the fight finished in 57 seconds.....
still,, i reckon sparring helps whatever,,,slow first then build the pace..
nice.
hza

Ultimatewingchun

08-13-2005, 07:06 AM

"UWC - if I were to send some clips, what would you like to see? I have an assortment." (Merryprankster)

***WHATEVER you feel would interest me. I'm always up for watching vids. My email address is: wingchun@usa.com

Thanks.

russellsherry

08-14-2005, 05:49 PM

hi sifu victor, i aggre with a lot of what you have said about boxing and wing chun , also i would like to point out to the size of the gloves is important to a wing chun man if you can trap and use your technique, the wing chun guy will do ok, but if you cannot and the gloves are to, bulky then we are in trouble , also just a small note the olny time i did ok at william:S australian kung fu championships back in 1981 i trained boxing an spartans in sth melbroune , and did not to bad, wing chun is a great art, but it is not the be all to end all . peace russellsherry

Fajing

08-14-2005, 06:10 PM

wing chun is a great art, but it is not the be all to end all . peace russellsherry

Well in that respect, what single martial art is?
:confused: :rolleyes:

Ultimatewingchun

08-15-2005, 10:20 AM

You're right about the size of the gloves, Russell. The smaller the better.

sihing

08-15-2005, 10:56 AM

Well in that respect, what single martial art is?
:confused: :rolleyes:

Well no one Martial Art can guarantee anything, whether it's WC or MMA. In the end it is always up to the individual to make it work. But lets say you have a practitioner that trains hard and consistently and is eager to learn WC and has a great interest in it, I would bet this person has a much higher chance of success in actually using it and applying it against anyone than the average practictioner using it for fitness, spirtituality or some other reason. You can't look at practitioners and make judgements on the art. Quite frankly the majority of practitioners out there today are unknowns, most do NOT participate in chats on internet forums and do not share video's or experiences or compete. You have to look at what the art teaches, how it teaches it and who is teaching it. Believe it or not, there is a difference and not all WC is the same regarding what it taught and how effectively it works, IMO.

One of the things I like about the HFY line is when they disscuss the origins of Wing Chun. They talk about a paradigm change in thought and process. I agree with this, WC is not just another MA created to teach practitioners this move or that move, but a total concept change in how a Martial Art(Science) is used & applied in combat. Problem is, due to some instructors insecurities and inadequencies of the past, not all the art has been taught or understood correctly. Therefore today we have inconsistenies in the art between practitioners and instructors, causing confusion at times at to what is correct and not correct, according to WC concept/theory & principal.

James

Mr Punch

08-15-2005, 04:58 PM

But lets say you have a practitioner that trains hard and consistently and is eager to learn boxing and has a great interest in it, I would bet this person has a much higher chance of success in actually using it and applying it against anyone than the average practictioner using it for fitness, spirtituality or some other reason.
One of the things I like about the daitoryu line is when they disscuss the origins of Aikijujutsu. They talk about a paradigm change in thought and process. I agree with this, Aikijujutsu is not just another MA created to teach practitioners this move or that move, but a total concept change in how a Martial Art(Science) is used & applied in combat. Problem is, due to some instructors insecurities and inadequencies of the past, not all the art has been taught or understood correctly. Therefore today we have inconsistenies in the art between practitioners and instructors, causing confusion at times at to what is correct and not correct, according to Aikijujutsuconcept/theory & principal...............

lawrenceofidaho

08-15-2005, 06:46 PM

But lets say you have a practitioner that trains hard and consistently and is eager to learn boxing and has a great interest in it, I would bet this person has a much higher chance of success in actually using it and applying it against anyone than the average practictioner using it for fitness, spirtituality or some other reason.

One of the things I like about the daitoryu line is when they disscuss the origins of Aikijujutsu. They talk about a paradigm change in thought and process. I agree with this, Aikijujutsu is not just another MA created to teach practitioners this move or that move, but a total concept change in how a Martial Art(Science) is used & applied in combat. Problem is, due to some instructors insecurities and inadequencies of the past, not all the art has been taught or understood correctly. Therefore today we have inconsistenies in the art between practitioners and instructors, causing confusion at times at to what is correct and not correct, according to Aikijujutsu concept/theory & principal.
Whoa! -This is, like, one of those parallel universe things....... :eek:

James, -Dude.......I know what you got to to do (I saw it in a movie once). -You've got to travel to this other dimension and battle to the END with this "John Hancokc" guy.......

Good luck!

-Lawrence

wongjunlam

08-21-2005, 10:08 PM

Hey,

SOrry for the Loooong delay in replying, My Wife just gave birth so I have been away for a while. This thread has gone down stupid street now.

I am personally all for touching hands with other people from other styles. I choose my training partners for their previous experiences too, It is vital to spar, touch hands, whatever with people outside of your art. Just fighting against your own art will leave anybody at a disadvantage regardless of the style they do. Personally I wouldn't want to mix my wing chun, That is me. I come from a background of MMA, training in Muai Tai, Kickboxing, BUjinkan, and Judo for a number of years. ammoungs other things. martial arts is a personal thing, to be a good fighter you don't need it, you need experience. This is what most people lack.

I personally would happily spar with people from MMA, infact I would love to, becuase of from the outcome of sparring I would know where I have to improve to make my game better, where to make my wing chun better. area's I need to work on. I do not buy into any of the My art is too deadly.. crap etc.. Liek I said I have had a few fights in competitions in China against other styles, we have to play by their rules. Sure it puts a big dampener on what I can do but **** if truth be known, If I cannot put on some gloves and punch you in the face there is no way in hell I could finger jab you in the eyes or hit that deadly dim mak spot. Not enough people realise that.

One Problem I find arrising is peoples preception of what is necessary to win a fight. Although I think chain punching is a real low level wing chun technique and idea, in a crowded bar it will work well enough. People train for different environments, Wing chuns is suited for more enclosed areas such as in a crowded bar, on a bus,etc.. Wing chuns aim is to finish the fight fast and aggressively. We are not all that set for sports fighting, anybody who trains for the ring with have a hell of a cardio advantage over us.. theres no if's or buts about that so it's stupid to argue about it. You Train for what you need. When I done the comps, more work was spent on Cardio and training a few selected techniques to handle the style I would be fighting. Now it's more focused on other parts of the art. i.e. dealing with grabs locks and more inclosed fighting. I chop and change my training regularly so I dont get locked into one area. But thats just me.. :os

Keith

***YOU'RE RIGHT, hza...

So how about it, WJL? What do you say to my last post that actually discussed strategy and technique? Or what Lawrence had to say? Or anything that actually pertains to sparring/fighting? (Perhaps if we ignore certain people's unrealistic remarks that always seem to be an attempt to hijack threads on sparring or mixing of styles...they will get the message. And I'm not talking about you, WJL).

A lot of time gets wasted dealing with false objections and illusions as to what wing chun can and cannot do in a real situation.

lawrenceofidaho

08-23-2005, 02:45 PM

I personally would happily spar with people from MMA, infact I would love to, becuase of from the outcome of sparring I would know where I have to improve to make my game better, where to make my wing chun better.
I am totally with you here........

Sparring with MMA guys has taken my WC to another dimension. :D

WC people who don't take advantage of this type of situation are denying themselves a wonderful opportunity to grow and improve.

-Lawrence

stricker

08-25-2005, 02:44 PM

some really good reading here, good to hear peoples ideas and experiences, thanks.

and yeah i agree totally lawrence i too am hoping my wing chun's gonna really take off actually using it, and understanding better how other people fight. i can understand why wing chun vs wing chun sparring is pretty pointless though, same as wing chun vs wing chun guy playing boxer. useful, but only up to a point, then it becomes counterproductive.

i did my first ever full mma sparring the other day. we started with basic boxing drills, getting used to being punched with guard up, then slipping punches, then boxing sparring and on the mats at the end with takedowns, ground and pound, subs. going very light, no elbows knees or leg locks. I was trying to use what i've been taught at mma (thai+greco+subs) but the wing chun was trying to get out lol, made me feel safer wedging and sticking.

it's interesting reading about people combining wing chun with boxing or muay thai, that may be accidentally where i'm headed. definitely i think wing chun is the way to go, but when i started mma it was because i wanted to learn that seperate from wing chun. i'm not quite good enough at wing chun to hang with the guys at mma class (my mma club is a very high standard). my plan was to learn mma seperate, then maybe after i've got that down, hopefully fight with wing chun in mma. short term goal and long term goal. maybe i'm trying to 'have my cake and eat it'.

anyway, that's been my experience so far.

lawrenceofidaho

08-25-2005, 05:27 PM

and yeah i agree totally lawrence i too am hoping my wing chun's gonna really take off actually using it, and understanding better how other people fight. i can understand why wing chun vs wing chun sparring is pretty pointless though
Some of it is helpful, -just try to make sure you have a balance.

same as wing chun vs wing chun guy playing boxer. useful, but only up to a point, then it becomes counterproductive.
Unless you & your buddy are studying some boxing alongside your wing chun, and then it will be very interesting.....

I am very lucky, because my two boxing coaches are both pros, and they both are experienced MMA fighters.

i did my first ever full mma sparring the other day. we started with basic boxing drills, getting used to being punched with guard up, then slipping punches, then boxing sparring and on the mats at the end with takedowns, ground and pound, subs. going very light, no elbows knees or leg locks. I was trying to use what i've been taught at mma (thai+greco+subs) but the wing chun was trying to get out lol, made me feel safer wedging and sticking.
Let it come out! If your MMA coach doesn't like it, he will probably show you why he thinks you're vulnerable when using it, and then you can just adapt, or tighten things up further until it's very difficult for those guys to counter.

it's interesting reading about people combining wing chun with boxing or muay thai, that may be accidentally where i'm headed. definitely i think wing chun is the way to go, but when i started mma it was because i wanted to learn that seperate from wing chun. i'm not quite good enough at wing chun to hang with the guys at mma class (my mma club is a very high standard). my plan was to learn mma seperate, then maybe after i've got that down, hopefully fight with wing chun in mma. short term goal and long term goal. maybe i'm trying to 'have my cake and eat it'.
Alan Orr and his guys are over in Britain as well, and they have been blending wing chun and submission wrestling for a while. (I think they enter some cage fights on a regular basis too.) You might consider visiting their school and seeing what they're up to these days. -Not that you'd want to leave the school that your at now, but it might be good to network with them or possibly attend a seminar or two in order to benefit from the experience they've got using their wing chun in that environment. (I think Alan's website has some downloadable videos you can check out to get an idea of what their training is like.)

All the best.
-Lawrence

stricker

08-26-2005, 05:43 PM

hey lawrence,

Unless you & your buddy are studying some boxing alongside your wing chun, and then it will be very interesting.....hahaha i am learning boxing (as part of mma, lots of thai pad work) so i think theyre a bit wary now of when i play boxer! still i'm not doing it to beat up my wing chun buddies if anything it will benefit them more than anything they get the fruits of my labour.

cool that youve got pro boxing trainers, my mma club is very high level too, part of why my wing chun wont work with them yet, im a low-mid level student, and theyre all pro level. that and i also suffer from your problem of being the small dude. again the one or two people at my size are all ripped guys whove got years of ring experience.

If your MMA coach doesn't like it, he will probably show you why he thinks you're vulnerable when using it, and then you can just adapt, or tighten things up further until it's very difficult for those guys to counter.yeah the problem with that though is it gets into theory vs practice, and its my theory vs his, so i lose in practice and in theory. im there to learn from the guy (blank slate in his class) not argue with him although im sure hes cool with it. anyway im taking it a day at a time so far, i'll see how it goes. like i say ideally id like to learn to fight both ways (wing chun and mma) but im sure theyll conflict at some point.

cheers for the pointer about alan orr. ive heard of him already, seen his clips and things even number 1 of his video series. his approach seemed pretty different to what i do, actually i need to watch that stuff to reevaluate. im sure i will check him out some time though.

hazhardy

08-28-2005, 01:06 PM

it is true, using wing chun on wing chun in sparring is pretty pointless. That's why i am too excited to imrove my WC and adapt it and use it against ''fast flowing oncoming'' punches in sparring, so that i can use it in real fights and in controlled ones.
i study the kamon system, which uses wing chun obviously, but mixes in touches of other properties from other arts (i.e. a bit of MMA sh!t is chucked in too,lol)...
however, i am finding now that in sparring, as useful as chain punching WC styleé is, i find it hard to throw combos of other punches, and make them connect.....

chain punches no doubt rule, as i found out this saturday at sparring, just that i think it is important to mix in ''boxing punches'' too,, as you guys were saying... however, i feel that all of these ''boxing'' punches can only be used when tight in range, e.g. body shot (right), left hook, right cross or something, can naturally only be used when tight in range, (which i guess is a confidence thing coz right now i;m a little scared getting that close),,, however chain punches i feel can be used a little further out but still connect and can be thrown in a rapid fashion....
what you think on all the above? do you see what i am getting at?

also, a question,,, is it possible to think up any sort of combo's and just use them, but make sure you're in range,,, will that work? (it's the getting 'in range' i find hard, but that will come i hope)..

also, are there any effective combos you guys use that are :
1; tight in, close close range (almost head to head)
2; no so tight, (further out than 1)
which work well??
i used one combo, simple but good: (chuck liddel used this in the most recent UFC 54 against Jeremy Horn,, a half hearted left hook to open up the guard, and then a step-in and right straight through the gap you have created...that was cool...
i mean i'm sure combos will come, it's just i am a newbie to quite 'up pace' sparring, so i wondered if u dudes could help me out..
cheers for your time
hza

couch

08-29-2005, 02:27 PM

My thinking is starting to turn around after many years in the martial arts.

What if the MMA guy goes for the shoot. Easy, right? Drop an elbow on his back! Or I could give him a knee to the face. Perfect.

Not so perfect in a perfect world. I'm a little worried about kneeing a guy who's adrenaline is pumping and who has taken knees in the face before (and doesn't seem to mind the taste of his own blood!). I'm also worried about him moving on me, struggling to take me to the ground or elsewhere and I miss with my elbow to the spine. What happens? What happens if he's relentless........vicious.......can fight with the broken nose that my palm strike caused that was supposed to have dropped him on the ground. What happens if he can take it and flow through it?

Sobering thoughts.

----------------------------------------

Race vs. Race is wrong and we know it.
Religion vs. Religion is wrong and we know it.
Etc. vs. Etc...you get the point.

What is it with Style vs. Style? My Sifu told me that after he instructs me for a few years, he wants me to go learn about other martial arts. He told me this so that I can handle myself in lots of different situations and said that other martial arts will open up my understanding to Wing Chun as well. Plus...he only teaches us Wing Chun and doesn't profess to be an expert at dealing with ANYTHING else.

Some people say that a Kick is a Kick, Punch is a Punch, etc...but a triangle choke is a triangle choke and I'm never seen one, done one, or had my lights put out by one.

Now that's again a little sobering for me. Also...I've never competed(not that's the be-all/end-all) or even mixed it up with any other practicioners except close friends who's abilities I'm aware of.

Why is style so segregated? Is it ego? Pride? Country vs. Country? Is it estoeric and magical like Disney World? It all has come from an origin that we can all relate to: the human race. Us! We created this stuff. And we're creating it right now! Why are we so rooted in the past? Why can't we create for today and pass it on right now?

I'm not one for mish-mash Sifu's. I still have a traditional feel for the martial arts...with the forms and structure...I'm just asking myself these questions and offering them to you.

Peace,
Kenton Sefcik

SAAMAG

08-29-2005, 09:05 PM

That's something I've noticed about full contact fighting vs. the crap we see in most places.

When I fought with contact, hell I would take shots for the fun of it. Literally.
I would take the lighter successive hits that people throw out to try and "disorientate" me and simply knock the crap out of them with a well placed single.

Kneeing to the head will always be effective in my book...I've never seen one person who took a successful full out knee shot directly to the face and not feel the effects. The elbow to the spine however is a fallacy that I've never seen work, on the other hand.

I think that regardless of system, one should always at least experience full contact fighting in their training at some point.

stuartm

08-30-2005, 01:15 AM

Im constantly surprised by those who question the efficiency of boxing :eek: It is not surprising that many WC folks get a shock when they spar with boxers - boxers have a range of tight and efficient punches, mobile footwork and fluid footwork, which is a pretty good base to work off! They are also used to getting hit, which is a fundamental asset in fighting arts !

If you actually train a little boxing alongside wing chun you will however, see a lot of simiarities. I think those who struggle sparring against boxers tend to be those who possibly have been taught WC in a narrow mindset.

I try and teach my students to be adaptive - why struggle trying to apply a wing chun technique, if it just isnt working and something else would suffice.

If you look at some of the better JKD exponents such as Bob Breen, all theyve done with 'Jun Fan Gung Fu' is taken what is essentially wing chun and been a little moere natural with it, incorporated some different footwork and some of the wider boxing techniques.

There are a number of wing chun schools unfortunately who sell themselves on teaching 'traditionally or 'classically' when in fact what thyre teaching is an outdated method based on two exponents attacking and defending using techniques from only within the wc system - imho, this wil get you knowhere when in the street.

Some people attempt be so 'pure' in their art that in essence they are impeding development rather than encouraging progression. Who gives two hoots whether you knock them out with a chain punch, right cross, hook or thai knee - its your ability in application that counts.

Just my humble thoughts.

Peace everyone, Stu :)

Vasquez

08-30-2005, 06:56 AM

You are going against the philosophy of the art. No don't mix in boxing and don't spar with boxers.

mexenergy

08-30-2005, 07:32 AM

VAsquez,

it can help 2 develop timing. It's not wrong to spar with boxers. Just rememeber the fundamentals and apply what you've learned. Unless you're referin 2 wearin boxing gloves which takes our game away. I agree with that.

lawrenceofidaho

08-30-2005, 10:46 AM

You are going against the philosophy of the art. No don't mix in boxing and don't spar with boxers.
There is no "reality" to wing chun other than what each one of us, as individuals, make of it....... Which brings up the question; "Is the philosophy of your wing chun static, -or is it dynamic, evolving, and "always new" (always springtime)?

-Lawrence

negativecr33p

08-30-2005, 01:41 PM

Uhmmm, right. Don't spar with boxers. And that would be because??? Because it's undeniably the easiest, fastest way to learn to fight??? Or is it because 98% of the time in a real life situation that would be what you are going to have to defend against? Wouldn't want to train against something like that, now would we? That is just the most rediculous thing I've ever heard. And incorporating boxing isn't going against the philosophy of the art. Why wouldn't you throw a hook after you just stunned someone with 3 chain punches? It's going to knock them out ALOT faster than chain punching. Wing chun was created at a time and place where western style boxing hadn't yet been created. And I got news for ya, wing chun wasn't created by one person. It evolved over generations of students. No martial art was created and perfected by any one person. They've all evolved. That statement just proves you've never fought any good street fighter, or boxer.

negativecr33p

08-30-2005, 01:55 PM

Hey,

SOrry for the Loooong delay in replying, My Wife just gave birth so I have been away for a while. This thread has gone down stupid street now.

I am personally all for touching hands with other people from other styles. I choose my training partners for their previous experiences too, It is vital to spar, touch hands, whatever with people outside of your art. Just fighting against your own art will leave anybody at a disadvantage regardless of the style they do. Personally I wouldn't want to mix my wing chun, That is me. I come from a background of MMA, training in Muai Tai, Kickboxing, BUjinkan, and Judo for a number of years. ammoungs other things. martial arts is a personal thing, to be a good fighter you don't need it, you need experience. This is what most people lack.

I personally would happily spar with people from MMA, infact I would love to, becuase of from the outcome of sparring I would know where I have to improve to make my game better, where to make my wing chun better. area's I need to work on. I do not buy into any of the My art is too deadly.. crap etc.. Liek I said I have had a few fights in competitions in China against other styles, we have to play by their rules. Sure it puts a big dampener on what I can do but **** if truth be known, If I cannot put on some gloves and punch you in the face there is no way in hell I could finger jab you in the eyes or hit that deadly dim mak spot. Not enough people realise that.

One Problem I find arrising is peoples preception of what is necessary to win a fight. Although I think chain punching is a real low level wing chun technique and idea, in a crowded bar it will work well enough. People train for different environments, Wing chuns is suited for more enclosed areas such as in a crowded bar, on a bus,etc.. Wing chuns aim is to finish the fight fast and aggressively. We are not all that set for sports fighting, anybody who trains for the ring with have a hell of a cardio advantage over us.. theres no if's or buts about that so it's stupid to argue about it. You Train for what you need. When I done the comps, more work was spent on Cardio and training a few selected techniques to handle the style I would be fighting. Now it's more focused on other parts of the art. i.e. dealing with grabs locks and more inclosed fighting. I chop and change my training regularly so I dont get locked into one area. But thats just me.. :os

Keith

I dunno keith, you have to mix your wing chun a little bit. If you trained in muay thai you have to realize the need to train in the muay thai clinch if you're going to fight a muay thai guy. That's just the first thing I thought of. Am I wrong assuming this?

lawrenceofidaho

08-30-2005, 02:29 PM

It's not wrong to spar with boxers. Just rememeber the fundamentals and apply what you've learned. Unless you're referin 2 wearin boxing gloves which takes our game away. I agree with that.
Hi Mex,

I understand the point about boxing gloves taking away a number of things that are done in chi-sau, but I would contend that many of those types of things (movements requiring fine motor skills) could rarely be used at all , in either a real fight, or a full contact sports situation (unless the skill levels between the combatants were so mis-matched that the experienced guy was able to "play" without danger.)

I'd like to re-post some insight shared by Kung Fu Fighter on the "Interested in amateur mma competition" thread, as I feel it's very relevant here. -Lawrence

I worked with, as well as faught against thaiboxers and grapplers in order to understand their tactics and strategies and how I could better utilize my wing chun's theories in application. One of my training partners fights in the K1 event in vagas. I am thankful to everyone of my training partners because they helped to bring out the very best in me as a wing chun fighter, I have learned excellent fighting theories/principles from my wing chun sifu, but deeper understanding of applications of the wing chun system training with these people than in any wing chun school. I think the two types of training should go hand in hand because the compliment each other (yin/yang). Alot of times in many wing chun schools people just go through the wing chun techniques, but the applications of them contradicts the the systems theories and principles. By doing this I was able to grasp a Deeper understanding of how wing chun theories work. Which is what makes the system truely simple, there have been many scientific studies of the brain that proves complicated movements delay reaction time, and under duress people loose their fine motor skills which are used to carry out these complicated types of actions. I strongly believe in Sun Szu art of war strategies. Such as knowing one's self as well as the opponent you will be victorious everytime. I think at the highter level all kung fu contain Sun Szu's art of war strategies, since they are universal principles.
The opponent is just a reflection in the mirror of one's self, after all he is just another human being with the same capabilities and weaknesses.
..........

mexenergy

08-30-2005, 03:02 PM

Those old pugilists did not use gloves and when they modernized it(using gloves now), it took the martial out of it. They could no longer use the same techniques either. They were using a vertical fist, now havin to use a horizontal one. When you step into the ring, put boxing gloves on, spar, it no longer looks like wc but mma. Nothin wrong with that, but for me, I could not use the same body mechanics that I express n my wcwith boxing gloves. It would be more of a boxers body mechanics now cuz of the gloves. My wc engine is no where near a boxers. BTW, I have boxed and spared w/boxers. I don't think it's the end all for knowin how to fight. & not everyone you meet in a street confrontation is gonna know how to box. & I know streetfighters who've whooped boxers & ma. Experience is the key.

anerlich

08-30-2005, 03:18 PM

They were using a vertical fist, now havin to use a horizontal one.

Actually, this generalisation is incorrect. One of the better gloved boxers in history, Jack Dempsey, advocated the use of the vertical fist. I see many similarities between the style of boxing he expoused in "Championship Fighting"and TWC, not just punching but also some defense.

BTW, I have boxed and spared w/boxers.

Ah, haven't we all. Except those with individual concerns about "WC philosophy", a subject on which the bible would be an extremely thin volume.

Fajing

08-30-2005, 04:54 PM

Hi Mex,

I understand the point about boxing gloves taking away a number of things that are done in chi-sau, but I would contend that many of those types of things (movements requiring fine motor skills) could rarely be used at all , in either a real fight, or a full contact sports situation (unless the skill levels between the combatants were so mis-matched that the experienced guy was able to "play" without danger.)

I'm not sure which movements requiring fine motor skills you speak of. With boxing gloves on, I think it would be difficult to grab/lop sau. I DID effectively lop and fun sau an opponent(not a friend) in the throat, however, he was a TKD guy. He seemed to be an expert as far as fancy kicking goes, but when I was able to make contact, he seemed stunned by what had happened. THAT WAS THE END of that confrontation. Of course this does not apply to every situation, but it was effective in that one.
:D

mexenergy

08-30-2005, 04:58 PM

Point taken. It can work. Even still, Jack Dempsey's gloves were smaller than todays standards in that weight class. But it doesn't work for everyone, meaning if it was so easy, than you would see more boxers using it effectively. Not everyone can do it, especially with big gloves. The body mechanics do not support a vertical fist with pig pillows on your hands. If your going to spar with boxers, don't tell em wc, just say mma cuz that's what it is even with 8 ounce gloves. My wc utilizes wrist energy. I cannot duplicate what I can do with gloves, that I can do without. Plain & simple. But can I fight? I'd like to think that I'm ok, but still improving even though learning how to fight is not my primary concern. I just met a BJJ/MT guy who's going to let me train with him to help me on some take down defense and escaping the clinch. He looked at me weird when I told him I didn't want to actually take BJJ, I just wanted to touch some hands and let him try his take down attempts and see what I need to work on as far as defending with WC. Sorry. Gotta go. I just noticed the time. Later

anerlich

08-30-2005, 07:39 PM

I just met a BJJ/MT guy who's going to let me train with him to help me on some take down defense and escaping the clinch. He looked at me weird when I told him I didn't want to actually take BJJ, I just wanted to touch some hands and let him try his take down attempts and see what I need to work on as far as defending with WC.

Your choice, but I decided to tackle this by taking up BJJ about 5 years ago and continuing with WC, encouraged by my WC instructor, who had done the exact same thing. Grappler's have been working on and developing takedown defence a lot longer than WC'ers. I'd encourage you to learn from experts, rather than blazing trails when others built 12 lane highways to the same destination ages ago.

With boxing gloves on, I think it would be difficult to grab/lop sau.

Grabbing's hard with gloves, larp sao style parries are not. Whether you need to move your hands that much with big padded head protectors on your hands is a fair question, though.

Fajing

08-30-2005, 07:52 PM

Grappler's have been working on and developing takedown defence a lot longer than WC'ers. I'd encourage you to learn from experts, rather than blazing trails when others built 12 lane highways to the same destination ages ago.

Good point there. :)

mexenergy

08-31-2005, 07:21 AM

negativecr33p

08-31-2005, 09:45 AM

Point taken again, but I have no desire to learn BJJ other than seeing what I would be up against should I meet one in a confrontation which is probably next to none. I work over 40 hrs a week with a wife, 3 kids & a dog. Any free time I have is dedicated to mastering wc. I don't feel so concerned that I have to learn BJJ to fill in those gaps because those gaps don't exist for me other than not practising enough. I have all respect for it, but each his own. Call me a purist but I believe in the concepts we have as far as that kind of defense. I merely need practise on them to make sure they're work when I need them. I don't need to take BJJ for that. The guy I'm goin to train with has competed at a amateur level, so it's just what I need. Hell, aren't most of us here amateurs anyway. My wc is sufficient & there are no gaps just gaps in my comprehension of the art. WC rules.

I believe you will be in for a shock once you actually do train with this guy, if he's any good. What belt is he??? And don't automaticly assume you're going to land everything you need to in a fight. Although he may be able to show you enough to have a much better ground game, should a confrontation end up with both people on the ground, struggling for dominance(most do, even with two trained fighters, look at emin bozetepe and william cheung or whatever) that you will have an advantage.

I think you will leave with a much greater repsect for grapplers. And possibly a greater desire to learn more within their arts.

mexenergy

08-31-2005, 02:38 PM

mexenergy

08-31-2005, 02:40 PM

Forgot to add something. If you actually call the scuffle bwteen EB & cheung a fight, or even a representation of a ground fight, then I think you're the one who's delusional. C'mon now. JMHO.

anerlich

08-31-2005, 03:18 PM

but each his own.

As I said, "your choice".

Call me a purist

Purist!!!

mexenergy

08-31-2005, 03:55 PM

what did you call me?!

Fajing

08-31-2005, 05:01 PM

Point taken again, but I have no desire to learn BJJ other than seeing what I would be up against should I meet one in a confrontation which is probably next to none. WC rules.

I feel ya there!
;)

Fajing

08-31-2005, 05:04 PM

I seriously think they should rename this forum to MMA forum instead of a WING CHUN forum, cuz that's all that goes on here.

LOL :p :p :p

sihing

08-31-2005, 08:24 PM

Why should I be surprised? Aren't we all human? 2 arms & legs. It's not like I haven't been in any fights & don't know what to expect. BTW, I have no desire to explore the art, but it doesn't mean I'd gain or lose respect for it just because I wrestle with one. I'll have to ask him his belt to find out. Didn't ask cuz those kinds of things don't really matter when it comes to ability. He had a shoulder injury that put him out of the game & now he's trying to get back in now that his shoulder is better. BJJ is not the end all of everything. I have respect for him already for training in his chosen art. We have to fight don't we. I can't be half ass cuz he's gonna take me down. He's also 45 lbs heavier and 3 inches taller, so he should have an advantage, right? If I get beat up, oh well. There's something to learn there. I don't need to explore other arts until I'm positive that I have mastered the one I'm currently in. Maybe not even then. I seriously think they should rename this forum to MMA forum instead of a WING CHUN forum, cuz that's all that goes on here. Respect anybody whose put the time in into their respective art otherwise, your underestimation will get you in trbl. It's only your ego that tells you that you can conquer the world.

Good posts mexenergy, finally a fellow believer, LOL.

But seriously, everything you have said makes sense. I love it when some on this forum THINK they know all about WC, but have not for the first part learned all of it, and secondly mastered or totally absorbed what the art has to offer. Plus the fact that not all WC is the same or equal is another factor. Most of the people on this forum practice a completely different style of WC than I, so therefore how can someone make a factual statement when they have no idea of what I am doing or what my WC represents. I've never had anyone from this forum come by the kwoon to see what up.

I for one do have respect for other MAist in different MA than what I practice, to do otherwise would be foolish, but after thorough investigation on my part I am not convinced that there is a system out there that is more effective for everyone than the WC that I teach & am still learning. This does not mean that I am the deadliest fighter around, because I know that I am not, I'm a lover not a fighter :) . But it has made me effective enough to handle what most have to offer. In reality winning a street fight (and this is where it really counts) comes down to will and intensity. If someone is trying to kill your family you will take that person out, period.

James

lawrenceofidaho

08-31-2005, 09:27 PM

they should rename this forum to MMA forum instead of a WING CHUN forum, cuz that's all that goes on here.
Mex,

many of us are here on the forum to improve our wing chun performance in combative situations. -MMA crosstraining has made arts such as Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai, Wrestling, and Boxing much more functional in arenas where there are few, or no rules, and it stands to reason that it also has something to offer wing chun stylists as well.

Why shouldn't we spend a portion of our time exploring an avenue which has such an abundance of examples of success against high caliber fighters, when "pure" wing chun has so few examples?

-Lawrence

anerlich

08-31-2005, 09:43 PM

I've never had anyone from this forum come by the kwoon to see what up.

Come on, James.

You haven't been to my place or Victor's or Knifefighter's either. It would be a hugely expensive undertaking in any direction for any of us, with no guarantee that anything worthwhile would come of it. In a word, impractical.

You seem to be implying that the collective no-show is based on some sort of "fear of finding out the truth and the real centre of the WC universe", and that is pompous and ridiculous.

sihing

08-31-2005, 09:46 PM

Mex,

many of us are here on the forum to improve our wing chun performance in combative situations. -MMA crosstraining has made arts such as Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai, Wrestling, and Boxing much more functional in arenas where there are few, or no rules, and it stands to reason that it also has something to offer wing chun stylists as well.

Why shouldn't we spend a portion of our time exploring an avenue which has such an abundance of examples of success against high caliber fighters, when "pure" wing chun has so few examples?

-Lawrence

Hey Lawrence,

You've made some good points, but the thing is some people have limited time to train, and unlike Professional MMA, cannot spend hours upon hours in the gym and the mat making their bodies stronger and faster (which is IMO the essence of why they are such great fighters, and natural fighting instinct, nothing really to do with their chosen Martial art/s that they practice). What would you recommend a MA practitioner that has say 6 hours a week to dedicate to MA training? A little bit of this or a little of that? This way will lead to little or no effectiveness in combat. Like I have said before, anyone with high quality skill in any MA will be dangerous, so in essence I'd rather be a master of one than a jack of all trades. Now if that one art is extremely effective to boot, based on concepts and principals that promote maximum effectiveness and efficiency then that is even better for the practitioner. Some of us are lucky enough to have access to arts like this in their city of residence and some are not so lucky. Some of us have instructors with abilities to demonstrate and teach this type of effectiveness to their students, and some don't. That's the way of the world. There is nothing wrong with crosstraining and mixing systems and styles (MMA methodology), but it is not a necessity IMO with WC to make it combat effective.

James

sihing

08-31-2005, 09:53 PM

Come on, James.

You haven't been to my place or Victor's or Knifefighter's either. It would be a hugely expensive undertaking in any direction for any of us, with no guarantee that anything worthwhile would come of it. In a word, impractical.

You seem to be implying that the collective no-show is based on some sort of "fear of finding out the truth and the real centre of the WC universe", and that is pompous and ridiculous.

Andrew,
The comment wasn't meant to make it look like people are "scared to come up and see for themselves" or to be thought of as a "challenge", but merely to say that no one from here has actually scene what we do or how we do it or why we do it this way. On forums like this there is a limit to the understanding someone will achieve when concepts or techniques are explained, person to person is always the best. Now I know the was a get together recently and I would have loved to have been able to attend, but it was not possible at that time (still isn't), so for now all I have is to share thoughts and feeling regarding what I believe to be truth, and maybe to share some video with others to help in their understanding. Everything I relate to others on here is factual to me but theoretical to everyone else, visa versa is true when I read of other's experiences.

James

anerlich

08-31-2005, 10:25 PM

Everything I relate to others on here is factual to me but theoretical to everyone else, visa versa is true when I read of other's experiences.

I accept and agree with what you say about visits to other kwoons.

What appears to happen is that we all have a propensity for equating "factual to me but theoretical to everyone else" as being equivalent to "My experience is the truth, therefore those that disagree with my experience are wrong".

We can have different truths.

My truth is that I'm an argumentative SOB, so arguments will continue. Sue me.

lawrenceofidaho

08-31-2005, 10:56 PM

some people have limited time to train, and unlike Professional MMA, cannot spend hours upon hours in the gym and the mat
Depending on my work schedule, I usually train about 7 hours per week (sometimes a bit more). -The MMA gym I go to has one hour training blocks available with various coaches. A typical week for me (roughly) breaks down something like this:

1) Muay Thai; clinch, knees, and low kicks - 1 hour per week (high % fundamentals)
2) Boxing - 1 (or sometimes 2) hours per week
3) Jiu Jitsu / Submission wrestling - 2 or 3 hours per week

and then the following do not take place at the gym, but in my yard / garage......

Escrima Stickfighting - 1 hour per week (high % fundamentals)
Wing Chun - 2 hours per week (maintenance of core skills, -as I have trained in WT for over a decade)

For the "average person" with limited training time, why not spend two 90 minute sessions per week training wing chun, and one or two sessions of Jiu Jitsu at 60 -90 minutes a pop? -That's only about 5 hours training per week, and then maybe when they have some extra time (maybe one weekend per month?), they can invite a friend from the Jiu Jitsu class who has some experience in boxing or Muay Thai to come over to their house to spar in the yard or garage to get some flight time in working against those arts.

The other arts I train make my wing chun stronger and more efficient, despite the fact that I train wing chun for a far less amount of time than I used to in the past. (How do I know? -I see the results in sparring.......)

-Lawrence

mexenergy

09-01-2005, 06:59 AM

No offense LoI, but training 10% of your time in wing chun equates to me that your're only training concepts & principles and not WC. JMHO, which isn't worth much. I train 100% in WC. In my training, my goal is to make my body a WC engine. So far, the attributes I've attained thru the training could no way be achieved any other way. Can I fight? Can I fight using WC? Maybe not as well as my intructor would like, but I don't have to mix it up. I don't use anything else. NO need. BTW, again, this is a WC forum & not MMA. JMHO, but you'd be better giving unwarranted advice in MMA forum & that goes for everyone else w/the same views. THIS IS A WING CHUN FORUM. So far to me, it seems you really aren't a wing chun player only training 2hrs a week wing chun. JMHO :D No need to anyone to take offense.

Vasquez

09-01-2005, 07:19 AM

Lawrence

You make me laugh. Wing Chun has a set lineage and set tradition tyhat has been around for 1000s of years. It needed no boxing then and it aint need any now.

IRONMONK

09-01-2005, 08:31 AM

I got agree with Lawrence

i spent a few years training at a NWTO club(london WT school) where all we did was practice cooperatively all the time and hours on cooperative chi sao.

When i changed to a different instructor who had more emphasis on sparring i found it very difficult because i was not used to it.I was walking into kicks, moving at the wrong time etc .
A few of the guys do boxing and i couldnt handle their combinations and their footwork.In theory i knew what to do as i had been shown what to do against certain attacks by my old instructor but none of it was coming out against a alive opponent.
Its been a few months since i have changed instructors and i can say I am getting more confident in sparring.I am starting to hold my own against the boxer guys(still have lot to learn).i feel now that i am starting to apply the concepts of WT that i was taught in theory and dead drills.To be honest I have learnt more in 3 months of alive training and sparring against boxers then i did doing few years of doing only co-operative chi sao sections and dead drills.
I am not expert in Wing chun history but didnt the masters develop their wing chun from fighting other styles etc?
Anyway dont take my word for it go spar other styles and find out yourself.There is no harm in trying and seeing for yourself!!

AndrewS

09-01-2005, 10:40 AM

Mexenergy writes:

No offense LoI, but training 10% of your time in wing chun equates to me that your're only training concepts & principles and not WC. JMHO, which isn't worth much. I train 100% in WC. In my training, my goal is to make my body a WC engine. So far, the attributes I've attained thru the training could no way be achieved any other way. Can I fight? Can I fight using WC? Maybe not as well as my intructor would like, but I don't have to mix it up. I don't use anything else. NO need. BTW, again, this is a WC forum & not MMA. JMHO, but you'd be better giving unwarranted advice in MMA forum & that goes for everyone else w/the same views. THIS IS A WING CHUN FORUM. So far to me, it seems you really aren't a wing chun player only training 2hrs a week wing chun.

Beginning trainees should dedicate the majority of their time to training within their sport; more advanced trainees will benefit more from cross-training and S&C work- this seems to be fairly common coaching knowledge. After more than a decade in the art, having spent a good bit of that time as an instructor, Lawrence qualifies as advanced.

If you pay attention, you will notice that there are a number of people posting here around that decade mark who are advocating cross-training and developing themselves by interacting with people from other arts.

Personally, I don't think Wing Chun is so limited that I can't do it when I wrestle, box, kickbox, or fight by MMA rules, nor am I so limited a student that I can't improve by training in each of those forums.

Vasquez,

more like 150-200 years. Was there a point there?

Faze,

good to hear training is working out well for you. I'll bet things make a lot more sense now.

Andrew

Ernie

09-01-2005, 02:25 PM

Good post Andrew /Lawrence

People can spend a life time '' Practicing Wing Chun '' and all they will ever be good at is ''practicing'' wing Chun
very few will ever really know how to USE the skill set that wing Chun helps develop ;)

stricker

09-01-2005, 02:31 PM

Okay lot of different points going on here, so here goes.

Gloves isnt the issue it's made out to be i think, mma gloves are pretty tiny anyway. I mean they do make a big difference how much punishment you get, no one's gonna go all the way through a boxing match with mma gloves, but for grabbing getting in small gaps mma gloves should be ok. Really a lot of the stuff with your hands is just icing on the cake so to speak like huen saos while important are not like lawrence says high percentage moves. Not being able to use every trick in the wing chun book comes with the territory though, what you can learn from really fighting different people more than makes up for it.

groundfighting isnt the issue either i dont think, its apples and oranges. the wing chun ground stuff i've been shown is how to get up, defending against a standing attacker stuff like that which is totally different to submissions like armbars triangles and stuff. same way wing chun stand up in the street is different to say muay thai different game.

as for this being a wing chun forum not mma sure ok but learning what mma do is really helpful because a) mma or vale tudo is modified from pure muay thai boxing bjj judo etc because its mixed martial arts, vale tudo means anything goes so its more realistic. b) its what most people do when they attack you (wrestle box football kick in primitive form) c) its a place where you can actually fight and test yourself. and its mixed martial arts so why not wing chun? d) if you wanna talk about pure wing chun cool go ahead.

also i do think that wing chun is a complete martial art for what its intended (street) maybe not perfect for in a cage or whatever but if you compare it to muay thai wing chun has nearly all the same techniques (not the round kick tho) same again with a lot of the wrestling stuff i've seen so far even my wing chun teacher says wing chun is really a wrestling type system. Personally i dont see any reason why a good wing chun fighter shouldnt be able to rip it up with thai fighters or in vale tudo (with some submissions) sure you need to condition, spar, train for the rules etc. Maybe if your doing mma because you havent been taught higher techniques yet its a bad idea. for example the thai neck clinch is in the opening of the wooden dummy, all the close range stuff is in biu jee and they take years and years to get to see (unless your teacher is naughty like mine).

I do agree though that mma training is elitist unlike wing chun. for example the people at mma are extremely fit 99% male grew up fighting etc, wing chun is more accessible to people less athletic who want to defend themselves.

I'm pretty much like lawrence of idaho i only get about 3 x 1.5hr mma sessions a week + one wing chun class a week (which i'm pretty gutted about i want more but the other clashes with mma technique class which i cant miss). But before you say it i'm really 100% dedicated to wing chun as the people i've seen who are good at it are awesome! sure its a long slow road, but to be really good at it would be amazing. also the people i've seen who are awesome have done other fighting martial arts when they were younger, so it makes sense for me to as well. unfortunately unlike lawrence i dont have 10 years of wing chun behind me, but i decided to sieze the day instead of wait until it fitted better. so far, no regrets! ps sounds like youve got a cool scene there lawrence!

**** that took ages i think i've covered everything!

ps ironmonk - cool! ;-)

ps andrew

Personally, I don't think Wing Chun is so limited that I can't do it when I wrestle, box, kickbox, or fight by MMA rules, nor am I so limited a student that I can't improve by training in each of those forums.Exactly!!!