8step linked fist

[rickyscaggs]

What's the relationship between the basic Lian Huan Quan and Ba Bu Lian Huan Quan, if any? Why are they called "linked fist"?

I think I have seen this 8 step form once. I'm pretty sure that's the form. Can anyone explain a few moves in it or link me to something about it. I'm wondering if what I saw is Ba Bu Lian Huan Quan.

[K.Brazier]

Hi Ricky. Here is a link to the 2 man version I teach.
This is from my babu lien huan chuen video.

Kevin


http://www.rochesterkungfu.com/multimedia/babu2man.mov

[rickyscaggs]

Oh, I've seen that single person form before. It's almost exactly like what the guy starting on the left does. I also saw a video of a single person form, which I think is Ba Bu Lian Huan Quan that looked similar. It was done by a Shaolin disciple though.

Towards the end there is a double punch to the right in bow stance and a double punch to the left in bow stance. That's where the first one I saw ended. But this other one by the Shaolin disciple kept going with a part that was very similar to Xiao Luo Han Quan.

[Chizica]

Make sure you show the proper respect towards "the guy on the left" as that is Shifu Brazier himself.... ;)

[rickyscaggs]

Ok, I obviously don't know him. :o

[Chizica]

link at the bottom of my sig. Between Shifu Brazier and Shifu Martello, these two are the most knowledgeable guys, othen than the Masters who know the Ba Bu or 8 Step system. If your looking to get info, it would be in your best interest to email one of them. They are nice enough to answer most questions when they aren't as busy training/teaching/working.

[rickyscaggs]

Ba Bu Tang Lang? That's praying mantis. It's different than the form I'm talking about. Ba Bu Lian Huan Quan practiced from the Shaolin Temple forms. There is a short Lian Huan Quan that is a basic form. And there is a longer one, Ba Bu. I'm looking for info on this form. Or if anyone can explain a couple steps at the beginning or end to see if it's the same form I saw a Shaolin disciple performing.

[K.Brazier]

Chizica,
Thanks for the nice words.

Ricky,
This form is called Shaolin Babu Lien huan Chuen.
People often think it is babu mantis becuase I put a clip of it on the babu Mantis site.

It is said that it is from the Eage Claw style and is included in some Eagle Claw curriculums. I like this form becuase the moves are all in commomn with the Mantis style.

In fact, this form does not look like the tradional Shaolin of Henan that I have seen.

[Chizica]

My mistake. There isn't any Shaolin style other than Hung Gar taught in this area so I'm not familiar with the style. My ignorance shines through. A thousand pardons.

[Shaolinlueb]

Hi Ricky. Here is a link to the 2 man version I teach.
This is from my babu lien huan chuen video.

Kevin


http://www.rochesterkungfu.com/multimedia/babu2man.mov


thats totally weird man. we do that same form. but we call it cannon 1 instead.
are you guys a mantis school only? what else do you do. Kevin would like to talk to you through PM.
http://www.nacma.net/demo/wong2004%20videos/ShaolinLuebCannon1.WMV
is this the same form? i performed it a while ago. its okay.

[K.Brazier]

Shaolinlueb,
1st off, just let me say that your performance is full of enthusiastic energy!

It is the same form no doubt. But if yours has a 2 man counterpart it must be quite different from my 2 man version.

I have several cases of documentable proof that this form is called Shaolin ba bu lien huan chuen.

Why your school uses that name I can not say. Cases of schools changing names of forms are not rare.
1. religoius reasons.
2. to fit in with other names of another teachers curriculum.
3. owing to dialect difference name was passed and new characters cause the name to change
4. forgot and made it up.
5. didn't get the name and made it up.

cannon 1 is an odd name.
I would think the chinese name may have been pao chuei yi lu.
This signifies that you must have another similar form.
is that right?

My style is Mantis, but I learn a few other things. Another similar form to this is
Shoulin Luohan 18 Hands.

[Shaolin Master]

Shaolin Babulianhuanquan displayed and the 18 luohans hands : aren't they the same as presented by Cai Longyun a few decades ago? Both have 2 man counterparts and very similar features/rhythm.

The performance was tight but some movements were a little unlinked, and in fact a little different to what I have seen as the two man would not work smoothly with the movements as performed. But of course good skill shown.

The Shaolin Lianhuanquan bears no relationship to the 8 step.

[Shaolinlueb]

Shaolinlueb,
1st off, just let me say that your performance is full of enthusiastic energy!

It is the same form no doubt. But if yours has a 2 man counterpart it must be quite different from my 2 man version.

I have several cases of documentable proof that this form is called Shaolin ba bu lien huan chuen.

Why your school uses that name I can not say. Cases of schools changing names of forms are not rare.
1. religoius reasons.
2. to fit in with other names of another teachers curriculum.
3. owing to dialect difference name was passed and new characters cause the name to change
4. forgot and made it up.
5. didn't get the name and made it up.

cannon 1 is an odd name.
I would think the chinese name may have been pao chuei yi lu.
This signifies that you must have another similar form.
is that right?

My style is Mantis, but I learn a few other things. Another similar form to this is
Shoulin Luohan 18 Hands.

brazier thanks, we do not have a 2 man set of this form. my sifu has scene one though performed. it was nice to see the two man set cause i never saw it before. we just train applications from that form.

[Vasquez]

Shaolin Babulianhuanquan displayed and the 18 luohans hands : aren't they the same as presented by Cai Longyun a few decades ago? Both have 2 man counterparts and very similar features/rhythm.

The performance was tight but some movements were a little unlinked, and in fact a little different to what I have seen as the two man would not work smoothly with the movements as performed. But of course good skill shown.

The Shaolin Lianhuanquan bears no relationship to the 8 step.

It could well have been a different branch or a temple stlye versus a village style.

[oasis]

wow...havent been reading the boards in a while and when i do, i come across an interesting find...

i've seen brazier's and lueb's clips before but it must've been prior to when i learned ba bu lian huan quan from my shaolin teacher, and they are right! their forms are the same. while i had to rewrind kevin's clip because he moves too fast, ;) it was great seeing their two stylistic versions of the form.

the segment that leub's video starts at is the move before kevin's first kick. kevin's clip finishes at the 10 second mark in lueb's video.

ricky, i have one of de yang's dvds in which one of his students performs the form at the temple, and it ends like lueb did (double punch to the left, followed by closing in right empty stance). my classmates learned the form from de yang and his student when they visited the temple with my teacher a few years ago. come to think of it, i can see how perhaps lueb's school called it cannon because of the three double punches, or 'cannon fists' in the form.

leub, your form is done exactly how we do it except for a few extra moves ya'll threw in :D

as far as the relationship b/t lian huan and ba bu lian huan, after i learned the two i compared them and they definitely share a similar flavor in the structure of the form, in the linearity of their movements, and in their closing in empty stance. so i see the former as a more elementary form compared to the latter. in fact, on the dvd i have the forms are displayed back to back! hope that helps.

[Shaolinlueb]

oasis

very interesting. I have a clip to another form that we call cannon 2. i was wondering if you recognize it at all.
http://www.nacma.net/demo/shaolinlueb_taolu.mpg
it doesnt really fill the cannon profile.
since our cannon 1 is actually Shaolin Babu lian huan quan i think this might be something else too.

i performed this form 2 years ago or so.

[iron_silk]

This is the first time I posted in a long time but your cannon#2 looks like a set I learned called "Lohan 18 Hands" which can be performed as a solo and 2 man

Cheers

[K.Brazier]

Yes, it is like Iron said.
The form is luohan 18 Hands.
But in this clip it appears as though the number may have exceeded 18 as there are a few extra movements.

Kevin

[Shaolin Master]

Yes the second looks like 18 hands.....

and again well the movements do not link in as if learnt ....rather looks like some choppy book thing. Movements are the same ...the performance makes the movements seem additional......whilst the kicking is deficient (missing a bit).

Regards

[Shaolinlueb]

Yes the second looks like 18 hands.....

and again well the movements do not link in as if learnt ....rather looks like some choppy book thing. Movements are the same ...the performance makes the movements seem additional......whilst the kicking is deficient (missing a bit).

Regards

thanks

yeah the form was only finished for a week when i performed it. so it was bad. but the form is lohan 18? interesting. thanks.

[iron_silk]

Shaolinlueb

What are the other forms taught at your school?

Just curious since you seem to do similar sets to mine. :)

[Shaolinlueb]

Shaolinlueb

What are the other forms taught at your school?

Just curious since you seem to do similar sets to mine. :)

some basic long fist, some cha, and eagle claw.

[Shaolinlueb]

ok, i have to bring this thread back form the dead.

oasis, iron_silk, Shaolin Master, or K.Brazier

do any of you have a video of the lohan 18 hands at all?

it would be a huge help

cheers
adam

[iron_silk]

It is kind of funny....the only "Cannon Fist" I learn was from "My Jong Lohan" style and it was obvious because of a certain move repeated (i.e. fist upward to the sky)

Your Cannon #1 = Babu lian huan - I personally didn't see it until someone showed a clip of the two man version and I instantly recognize since I do a similar version of it....I think you can see it on my school's video section (part of it that is...)

Your Cannon #2 = Lohan 18 Hand - I personally learned this two man and solo afterwards. In my opinion it was an easier two man set but your solo looks way fancier than mine did...and I kind of forgotten it by now...

......so I finally answer your question I swear I've seen it somewhere on the web before unforunately that was long time ago and I no longer have the link BUT... I swear I saw it in one of the Lee Koon Hung Open Ceremony performances so...commence digging...SUCCESS!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=991e3tchIxc

you would be the guy starting from the right.

Hope this what you were looking for!

[iron_silk]

some basic long fist, some cha, and eagle claw.

thanks for answering my question....I forgot to thank you earlier (only a little over a year late)

I finally started learning some Cha this year (traditional version i.e. not wushu) finished #4 a while ago and just finished #5 last night!!!

at I thought #4 was a killer (for a person my size and lack of flexibility) and I can't get into the nice low stance like you can........but then #5 came around BOY was I in for some hurting....

not that i will be performing these sets....just something to work on.....maybe one day when I finally lose 20lbs and practice my stances really hard without killing my knees

[Shaolinlueb]

It is kind of funny....the only "Cannon Fist" I learn was from "My Jong Lohan" style and it was obvious because of a certain move repeated (i.e. fist upward to the sky)

Your Cannon #1 = Babu lian huan - I personally didn't see it until someone showed a clip of the two man version and I instantly recognize since I do a similar version of it....I think you can see it on my school's video section (part of it that is...)

Your Cannon #2 = Lohan 18 Hand - I personally learned this two man and solo afterwards. In my opinion it was an easier two man set but your solo looks way fancier than mine did...and I kind of forgotten it by now...

......so I finally answer your question I swear I've seen it somewhere on the web before unforunately that was long time ago and I no longer have the link BUT... I swear I saw it in one of the Lee Koon Hung Open Ceremony performances so...commence digging...SUCCESS!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=991e3tchIxc

you would be the guy starting from the right.

Hope this what you were looking for!

THANKS Iron Silk. I do recognize all the moves. im surprised i didnt see it when i was there. :rolleyes: then again it was hot out and LOTS of kung fu.

finished CHA #4? lucky, that is such a beautiful set. I love it. its one of my fav's. CHA #5, I think I have a vcd of it somewhere.

[looking.......]

yep i do. I have CHA 1,2,4, & 5 on VCD. got them off of http://www.plumpub.com/sales/vcd/coll_cha.htm 4 is my fav. its everything long fist should be :D

I'm starting to get the collection of martial art vcd's. my brothers are like do you learn them? im like no, i just like watching them lol. expensive habit sort of.

[ngokfei]

The only eagle claw school that has this form is in Hong Kong (sifu wing kit lam), he also put a book out on it.

What I've heard is that it is not very old and comes from a series of "sets" created in the last 30 years during the same time that the 32 series of Contemporary Chang Quan.

Wu Bu Quan (ng Bo Kuen ) 5 step fist
Ba Bu Lian Huan Quan (BAt Bo Lin Wan Kuen) 8 step linking fist
shi ba lohan quan (sup bat law hon kuen) 18 arhat fist.


There is a VCD series out of china that teaches these three sets along with partner sets for the 8 step linking fist and the 18 arhat fist set.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Shaolin Babulianhuanquan displayed and the 18 luohans hands : aren't they the same as presented by Cai Longyun a few decades ago? Both have 2 man counterparts and very similar features/rhythm.

The performance was tight but some movements were a little unlinked, and in fact a little different to what I have seen as the two man would not work smoothly with the movements as performed. But of course good skill shown.

The Shaolin Lianhuanquan bears no relationship to the 8 step.

Yes, it is shown here: http://www.plumpub.com/sales/vcd3/coll_huaboxing.htm

Part of Cai's Wah or Hua Quan style.

VCDs of the single and two person sets are available there.
They are throughly authentic versions.

[Sal Canzonieri]

ok, i have to bring this thread back form the dead.

oasis, iron_silk, Shaolin Master, or K.Brazier

do any of you have a video of the lohan 18 hands at all?

it would be a huge help

cheers
adam

VCDs are here: http://www.plumpub.com/sales/vcd3/coll_huaboxing.htm
Both single and two person.

[Shaolinlueb]

ngok and sal

thanks very much for this information!!!! you dont know how much this is helping me!

[Sal Canzonieri]

ngok and sal

thanks very much for this information!!!! you dont know how much this is helping me!

I recommend you getting the 4 vcds of these sets, I learned these set many years ago and these vcds follow exactly, plus they came from the people who created the forms.

One thing to note, although it is said the Cai Longyun created these forms, Shaolin
has always had a loose set of self defense techniques they called 18 Lohan Hands that are the identical movements, just not isolated into postures and put into a standard form.
So, if Cai did that, he may have used these loose techniques from Shaolin.
But, legend has it that these movemtns came from the Wah Quan style originally and a Shaolin monk was defeated by them and thus they incorporated the movements into shaolin.

But, since Cai's family style is Wah Quan (Hua Quan), then it all comes full circle?
Maybe he did not use the Shaolin moves to create his form, but both he and Shaolin got it from the same original source?

Also, another intersting note:
If you are into the Eagle Claw style, the first move of this 18 Lohan form is an eagle claw move (which is also done in Yue Fei style and also in some Fanzi styles).

Also, the first 5 movements of this 18 Lohan form are the 5 elements in the original order, before Hebei Xing Yi people changed the order.
In 18 Lohan the first 5 moves are the equivalent of:
1 - Pi - splitting - metal
2 - Zuan - drilling - water
3 - Bang - crushing - wood
4 - Pao - pounding - fire
5 - Heng - crossing - earth

And if you continue from there the postures of the animals from XY are found in the rest of the form in a rudimentary way, such as Eagle, bear, moneky, crane, horse, dragon, hawk, swallow, sparrow hawk, and others.

Weird, what does it mean?

[Jingwu Man]

originally posted by Iron Silk
"......so I finally answer your question I swear I've seen it somewhere on the web before unforunately that was long time ago and I no longer have the link BUT... I swear I saw it in one of the Lee Koon Hung Open Ceremony performances so...commence digging...SUCCESS!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=991e3tchIxc"

Hmmm. Luohan 18 hands is the first set in my school and 8 step the second.
This video is a much different two-man version than the one I know. They did a lot of extra steping, that jump inside kick is new, and at the turnaround my A side guy does the other side .
There is a video of this version on my schools site for download.
Its in the old club section, lohan A+B.
http://www.chingwu.org/web/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=43

[Shaolinlueb]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ-7lYXhJbg&eurl=

here is a better example of the form. i start around 7:22 unfortunetly. :(

-Adam


*edit

Sal you are a wealth of information. I have a video of me doing 18 lohan, but i just finished it two weeks before and I am not proud of it. so I will take another one and post it for you guys.

[Shaolinlueb]

for those of you that care. i performed this form at lee koon hung grand opening

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxnTtiAFT4g

i even called it by the semi correct name ;)

its right at the clip so you dont ahve to watch trhough 7 minutes