Long and Short Range Wing Chun

[RedJunkRebel]

What do you use to bridge the gap (when fighting/sparring just out of arms legnth)? Is it primarily Wing Chun? More of a boxing style with kicks included? A longer range kicking style such as savate or Tae Kwon Do? Something else?

I've found that more of a boxing type entry (with low to mid range kicks) works best for me until I touch arms where I find Wing Chun to be most effective at close range.

[Ultimatewingchun]

RedJunkRebel:

Check out the thread entitled "For Those Who Mix Wing Chun", from the opening posts on...they address your questions.

[RedJunkRebel]

Was looking for more of a specific discussion than direction.

[Gangsterfist]

In a serious situation I would kick, either piston kick, or a whip kick towards the knee. Its fast, direct, and damaging. I played soccer for over 10 years so I got a decent front kick from it.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

While I can appreciate the differing ranges and the different attributes each "range" requires, I do not see why Wing Chun is incapable of working irregardless of the range.

I myself like to say there are only two ranges; contact and non contact. If a person is at kicking range but they can reach you or you can reach tme then you are in Wing Chun range. Once you can touch you can establish a bridge and go from there.

In the longer range :p the footwork which we use is a bit different. We tend to use the Bic Bo for longer range contact and change to a Som Kwok Ma as we decrease the range. I personally like to drive in on an opponent, which can be both good and bad depending on the opponent ;) . I sometimes like to set up a technique from long range by throwing a kick and then stepping in on the opponent.

You can certainly integrate other arts into your Wing Chun if you'd like and this can be beneficial. But, I am not sure that WC is insufficient if you understand it. IMHO, one of the problems may be that too many people do not practice the WC kicks and have only a basic understanding of how to apply them in actual combat. They do not put in the time needed to train stance and stability in order to apply the kicks for real. Also, if one moves in constantly there is a degree of comfort which can be lost as one may feel they have more options at a greater distance.

Don't missunderstand me to be saying that you would utilize the same strategy from far away as in close or even in grappling or groundwork. But, the basic concept should remain and if you train to bridge then you should be able to adapt your bridge based on the point of contact no matter where you are in relation to the opponent, far or close. IMHO, WC teaches one how to do this, but if you want to explore other arts and integrate them with your WC that is fine as WC should be a constantly growing living thing not some stagnent dead concept.

[wongjunlam]

Ok,

Out here in Guangzhou, wing chun has 2 fighting platforms. The first we learn is called Lei Kyu Chi Da (it means fighting without a bridge) This has to be learnt before you ever touch Chi Sau. Basically it is fighting from a distance, learning to close the distance through correct stepping techniques. Most importantly it is IMHO learning to fight a "real" Fight using Wing Chun. In all reality for the most part only a few moves are needed from Wing Chun to fight at a distance, Daap, Gou Laan, Laap Ngoi Lim, Ji Mh Choih, and Fu mei being what I would think of as the bare essentials. Guangzhou's wing chun covers this with its Sahp Yih Sik and San Sik fighting, before ever engaging in Chi Sau.

In the beginning this is choppy with no real sticking, no real controlling of the opponents balance point (this is due to not learning chisau, not a fault in the system itself) what you end up learning to do is using wing chun stepping methods to out manover and out fight other fighters. (in theory. it really depends on how hard someone trains and HOW they train to whether they can make it work or not)

after this has been learnt and trained. you move into Chi Sau through some basic exercises, Dan Chi and then Seung Chi, In Chi Sau you learn the sticking, controlling, and shutting off of your opponents limbs, normally it comes in the form of rolling hands. Why do we roll hands? It really doesn't apply to fighting from my experience, it is IMHO just a platform to come off, a little less likely to hurt someone if you are already touching and rolling bridges than if you come in from a distance ( in the Chi Sau comps I have seen out here, the only time they Roll is when they are training, or having a friendly play, when actual comps have gone down, their hands meet and it's on). It is NOT necessary for fighting, If your Lei Kyu Chi Da is good, you do not have to rely on sticking to win a fight. Although Everything you find in Chi Sau is found in Lei Kyu Chi Da. The difference is in Chi Sau, you learn to apply the techniques while someone is adding pressure to,/trying to control your arms, position, and balance point. This way of fighting we call Chi Kyu Chi Da. (fighting with a bridge)

Now for all intense and purposes fighting with a bridge is a lot easier than without.

Why?

If I am standing at a distance from a person, then he has 2 arms, 2 legs and a multitude ofways he can attack you. Thats a lot to think about.

If I have a bridge through feeling their balance point, you have a better knowlege of what they can and might do from the way they reat to your bridge. You are simply cutting down the number of choises your opponent has as giving you less to worry about.



These two do mix. Once you have learnt Chi Sau, then you learn/are able to go from a distance, control the distance, get up closer which is slightly preferable for wing chun, once your close what you have learnt from Chi Sau. the feelings, the reactions will come into play. It is doubtful you will actually chisau for any legnth of time, more you close the distance obtain a bridge, control/nutralise the bridge, smash the crap out of the guy and the fight will be finished.

I have found though, much to my dismay a fair few Wing chun practitioners ignore the Lei Kyu Chi Da part of training to focus on the more fun, Chi Sau.


Just my 2 pence worth.

WJL

[KPM]

Ok,

Out here in Guangzhou, wing chun has 2 fighting platforms. The first we learn is called Lei Kyu Chi Da (it means fighting without a bridge) This has to be learnt before you ever touch Chi Sau. Basically it is fighting from a distance, learning to close the distance through correct stepping techniques. Most importantly it is IMHO learning to fight a "real" Fight using Wing Chun. In all reality for the most part only a few moves are needed from Wing Chun to fight at a distance, Daap, Gou Laan, Laap Ngoi Lim, Ji Mh Choih, and Fu mei being what I would think of as the bare essentials. Guangzhou's wing chun covers this with its Sahp Yih Sik and San Sik fighting, before ever engaging in Chi Sau.



Hi Ah Lam!

We work on something similar. How structured is your Lei Kyu Chi Da? What we do is generally unstructured or loosely structured. We may work a drill in a Pak Da or Chi Sau format, and then step back at a distance and apply the same thing after having to "close the gap." Then we will often do the same thing (or something very similar) against a more resistive opponent who has assumed more of a boxing/street-fighter structure in order to "functionalize" the technique. I do find it interesting that SNWCK puts less emphasis on Chi Sau than YMWCK. I have always felt that some YMWCK groups put way too much emphasis on Chi Sau itself. Thanks for the summary!

Keith

[DaveFenton]

Hmm, the subject of contact and bridging.....this will always be subjective as individuals are physically set up different so therefore have different methods of dealing with this.

The core issue is contact, just remember there are no ranges....you are either in or out of range simple as that, and once fighting comences there will be contact, without it there is no fight.

Dave

[wongjunlam]

Hey Keith,

Loosely structured. we have a bunch of san sik, which we learn to apply against various fighting formats, Commonly things like sanda, street fighting as well as wing chun, and some other style specific arts. It's important to practice these things against other ways of fighting. We have in addition a bunch of partnered drills working different ideas and conceptions for fighting without a bridge. in the end, fighting with and without a bridge blends into one. and most things can be done in both areas.

I woulnd;t say we put less emphasis on Chi Sau, we just start it later. Working on getting a good grounding in Rough and tumble fighting first. Learning how to obtain a bridge is vital. Learning what to do if there isn't a bridge. etc.. all needs to be learn and understood before you learn to fight "with" a bridge. once you start learning Chi Sau, the concepts, methods etc creep in through the without a bridge type stuff. and they blend together.

Ah Lam




Hi Ah Lam!

We work on something similar. How structured is your Lei Kyu Chi Da? What we do is generally unstructured or loosely structured. We may work a drill in a Pak Da or Chi Sau format, and then step back at a distance and apply the same thing after having to "close the gap." Then we will often do the same thing (or something very similar) against a more resistive opponent who has assumed more of a boxing/street-fighter structure in order to "functionalize" the technique. I do find it interesting that SNWCK puts less emphasis on Chi Sau than YMWCK. I have always felt that some YMWCK groups put way too much emphasis on Chi Sau itself. Thanks for the summary!

Keith

[KPM]

Loosely structured. we have a bunch of san sik, which we learn to apply against various fighting formats, Commonly things like sanda, street fighting as well as wing chun, and some other style specific arts. It's important to practice these things against other ways of fighting. We have in addition a bunch of partnered drills working different ideas and conceptions for fighting without a bridge. in the end, fighting with and without a bridge blends into one. and most things can be done in both areas.

---Sounds good! :)

I woulnd;t say we put less emphasis on Chi Sau, we just start it later.

---Understood. But I was referring to some WCK groups I have seen that seem to do only two things.....warm up by doing the forms.....then spend the entire rest of the class session doing chi sau.

Working on getting a good grounding in Rough and tumble fighting first. Learning how to obtain a bridge is vital. Learning what to do if there isn't a bridge. etc.. all needs to be learn and understood before you learn to fight "with" a bridge. once you start learning Chi Sau, the concepts, methods etc creep in through the without a bridge type stuff. and they blend together.


---Interesting! Pretty much all WCK groups I have seen seem to take the opposite approach to the same end. Those that I have seen typically start with chi sau early on.....dan chi sau, Pak Da drill, Lop Da drill, etc. Then progress to rolling seung chi sau, choregraphed techniques within the double roll, and then "free" technique within the double roll. Closing the gap or fighting without a bridge is usually introduce later on....typically in the double rolling with set technique phase, and then really expanded as fighting from a distance with free technique (after closing the gap) more near the end of the chi sau curriculum. I do think the way you are being taught would be more likely to produce an effective fighter early on.

Keith

[Gangsterfist]

At long range there should be a broken structure and more of a flow. No need to bai jong when you cannot reach your opponet. No need to set up structure when there is no immediate threat. Foot work should be loose and quick, robbing, and at angles.

send what comes
escort it out when it leaves
upon loss of contact rush the center
when there is form strike the form
when there is no form strike the shadow

[KPM]

At long range there should be a broken structure and more of a flow. No need to bai jong when you cannot reach your opponet. No need to set up structure when there is no immediate threat. Foot work should be loose and quick, robbing, and at angles.



I agree. But I also think it can depend upon how you define "long range." Obviously, you have to be in contact before anything can happen. You are talking about "fighting without a bridge" just as Ah Lam was....which is a good way to look at it. But then you have Bruce Lee's classification of kicking, punching, trapping, and grappling ranges. Some will consider the kicking to punching ranges as long range. So it is easy to talk past each other. Once in contact we should close to the range that we are comfortable with and that WCK works best in. But that is not always easy to do. Hence some talk about working from more of a kickboxing structure at kicking and punching range prior to reaching the trapping and grappling ranges. Others don't see that as necessary, since WCK teaches to close as soon as possible. Different strokes for different folks. :)

Keith

[mr. jai]

Has anyone ever heard of the Long Bridge and/or Short Bridge in Wing Chun? If so can anyone give some insight. Thank yolu in advance. :)

[wongjunlam]

Has anyone ever heard of the Long Bridge and/or Short Bridge in Wing Chun? If so can anyone give some insight. Thank yolu in advance. :)

A bridge is a bridge. long or short shouldn't bother you..

[mr. jai]

thank you soo much for the detailed explaination. :mad: I'd rather you say you don't know. But as in this world, everything should be mystical. :p

[stonecrusher69]

the Siu Lin Tao taeches you right from the begining long and short bridge.

[kung fu fighter]

Has anyone ever heard of the Long Bridge and/or Short Bridge in Wing Chun? If so can anyone give some insight. Thank yolu in advance. :)

Hi,
Long an short bridges use slightly different mechanics to generate power. Long bridge uses the hinge action of the shoulder, while short bridge uses the elbow. All the forms contain both long and short bridge techniques, but the biu jee form specialize more in this type of energy. Wing chun's Long bridge is similar to the mechanics Styles like choy lay fut or shaolin quan swinging punches, while short bridges are done with the elbow positioned in tight and compact close to the body like southern mantis or fujian white crane.

If anyone have anythig else to add please do

Regards
Kung fu fighter

[mr. jai]

Kung Fu Fighter,

Thank you for the knowledge. ;) It's good to know that people are willing to share their knowledge to help the Wing Chun family. :D

[DaveFenton]

A bridge is a bridge. long or short shouldn't bother you..


thank you soo much for the detailed explaination. :mad: I'd rather you say you don't know. But as in this world, everything should be mystical. :p

Not a case of not knowing, its a true statement. A bridge is just that, long or short. How you get there is not improtant, that you get there is.

[wongjunlam]

If this is too mystical for you, thats not my problem. Bridging is really a simple conception, there is no real need to think in long range or short range for bridging. Too much to think abotu will clog your mind when it needs to be clear.





thank you soo much for the detailed explaination. :mad: I'd rather you say you don't know. But as in this world, everything should be mystical. :p

[mr. jai]

If this is too mystical for you, thats not my problem. Bridging is really a simple conception, there is no real need to think in long range or short range for bridging. Too much to think abotu will clog your mind when it needs to be clear.


Again, THANK YOU for your detailed explaination. With your kind in the WING CHUN family, it's no wonder why the family is so splintered. IF you get the chance please read "The Rise and Fall of the Wing Chun Family" at http://members.tripod.com ( www.members.tripod.com) written by my SiBok Duncan Leung. Hopefully your attitude will change to help the family in the future.
Good Luck in your training.

[KPM]

Again, THANK YOU for your detailed explaination. With your kind in the WING CHUN family, it's no wonder why the family is so splintered. IF you get the chance please read "The Rise and Fall of the Wing Chun Family" at http://members.tripod.com ( www.members.tripod.com) written by my SiBok Duncan Leung. Hopefully your attitude will change to help the family in the future.
Good Luck in your training.

Hey! Don't come down on Ah Lam! At least he gave you an answer, and he is right! There was someone here not long ago that would have given you a long drawn out explanation complete with philosophy and song lyrics and you still wouldn't have an answer! :D And if you asked him specific questions to clarify....he wouldn't answer you! :eek:

Keith

[Sun Tzu]

hii

mmm... long and short i do wing chun and i went to a Tae Kwon Do school to spear with some of the long kickers and wing chun wasnt as good as i thought it would be, but i keepet my wing chun stance and defened with my wing chun guard and i was keeping in good form then i made my way in and thats it, it was over for the black belt i punched the day lights out of him then took his legs out he fall straight on the floor. so im saying its good to mix with a long rang fighting style with wing chun