Close Door policy still needed in the 21st century?

[SPJ]

Exclusiveness was widespread in TCMA. All the refined or best stuff, the teachers usually passed on to the best skillful or most trustworthy student which then became the next name bearer of the lineage.

It would be necessary in the old time. Since if the fighting secrets were disclosed, people may come up with countermoves. Since for every move, there will be more than one countermove.

With the introduction of guns and modern weaponry, hand to hand combat took a back seat.

Close door policy is still prevalent. If you are an outdoor student, you only learn the skin or the surface. And only for a reserved few, they got to learn indoor or closed door stuff.

Is it necessary or an outdated practice?

Comments?

:D

[SPJ]

On the other hand, if a particular style is more open, more talents are attracted to the pool. The style will flourish and enrich. Such as mantis, Tai Chi, Ba Gua, Xing Yi etc.

So the openness is the way to go or not?

:confused:

[gfx]

I think selection of students is still important.
Most of the times, people don't really care about the deeper applications, and are more concerned with looking cool. It's a waste of time and effort on both the teacher and the student to be taught and drilled in these aspects in this case. Hence teaching some things to only guys that have shown effort and interest into the deeper part of the art seems logical to me.

Plus, for students to be taught deeper/more complex things, they must have a strong foundation first in the things that are "skin deep". Most of people never pass this stage, hence it makes no sense to teach something that'd be useless for them.

The teacher really need to understand this and use his discretion rather than sticking with rigid traditional dogma imo.

[David Jamieson]

It is an old modality of thinking. Often times it is also an abused aspect of the old way of teaching martial arts. Sometimes it is used because your teacher is an old chinese guy and that's how he learned. lol

Sometimes the concept is abused as a marketing scheme to get contracts and money and to retain students who are mostly experiencing teh laws of diminishing returns in their training in a given way, with a given person.

While martial arts training may be a deep well, no one teacher is that well. They will run out of material to keep you fresh and you either bind together in your forward pace or you unravel and seperate.

A person who trains hard will reap the rewards indoor or outdoor.

[Oso]

This is one of the basic problems today.

I actually feel that a ranking system can solve some of the issue. IF it's not abused as well.

There are no secrets. Only progression from basic understanding to better understanding to competency to proficiency...and yes mastery of the information.

"master'' is certainly overused but I don't think that there is anything wrong in declaring someone a master at something. Sgt. York was a Master hunter and became a great soldier. Bill Gates has certainly mastered his field....but I'm digressing.

In a properly managed ranking system there is no such thing as inner or outer door...just people who have stuck around long enough, and trained hard enough to learn the next bit of information. So, no one is excluded. Everyone has the same opportunity. The ones that 'want it' will get it.

[Ray Pina]

All I can say is this: Since my master shut down his commercial school in Chinatown and opened up a more "club" oriented training hall everyone improved immediately.

It's kind of hard to balance instruction with folks who view what they're doing as a hobby, something to kill the time and have a few laughs. This is not to say everyone wants to go out and beat people. For the most part my training brothers and sisters enjoy improving themselves, gaining strenght and internal health, but they have power. Most of them are actually more powerful than me because they can make it to class more and supplement their training with weapons training.

But overall, the environment now is much more serious. The folks that attend do so because they see the treasure and want to take a piece of it home with them everyclass.

I know there are things, lots of things, that my master hasn't shown me yet. I'm not a disciple but I don't think it's that. Everything in its right time. My master is very strict about quality control. He'd rather it be right 5 years from now then wrong tomorrow. At least that is the sense I get. And if he can fight at 65 I can wait a few more years. I'm only 31.

Once you find a good teacher I think you have to trust them to train you. They are where you want to be. Let them guide you. They may have taken the hard roads and the easy roads. Why not learn from their experience, they know how to take you there.

As far as closed door, disciple, heir .... those are titles. Its been my experience that a teacher loves to see a talented student blossom. Maybe a disciple doesn't "Get it" or lacks the ambition to go out .... maybe a regular student has a gift to learn, likes to go out ..... wouldn't you arm them properly?

[shaolinboxer]

I definately think that there are public and private versions of the martial arts.

Someone I know refers to his most dangerous techniques as "friends and family only" and I agree that there's some stuff I just never show anyone.

Once in a while someone comes along that I feel has a similar mindset and I enjoy sharing with them things that others have shared with me after hours.

[7th gen yang]

IMO there are Students and Disciples from what I have experienced.

When I first started to train with Shifu we always trained in a park there's about 10-15 Taiji Masters all congregate within each other I would do my taiji and they would watch me but never say anything to me'

Then Shifu Introduced me to them this opened the door to them. They all wanted to show me their skill each one took his time to show me the best of what they had learned (with each teacher shifu said watch or feel what this teacher can do)with great honor I took what I could as my brain was spinning with all of the different things I experienced that day when I asked what he said to them he said (I told them you are my Disciple)

The many things that I have learned from My shifu as far as secrets are real its not something I have seen before or read. there is definitely secret methods in the Taiji I study. I am not at liberty to say here in this forum. :( I would If I could because I love to share with people but I also took an oath of Silence, unless my Shifu allowed me to teach it.

this is how my Shifu makes a living in Martial arts But my Shifu makes more money on his TCM and Massage his disciples are of all ages most are Masters of their arts and some are Taiji Masters That have studied over 30-40 yrs and still cannot do what Shifu Does. Why is this?

this is how to make sure the people studying with him carries the Tradition on
with no dicrepencies of the art, every thing has a method to learning and as Shifu says there are Methods passed on from Sigung that are taught to increase your ability altogether quicker, than if you studied from a student of the master, and not the Disciple of the Master, where to learn something of high level as far as here in the states you only see the old people be able to do these skills after 20-30 yrs of practice and still only good at one or a few things not all!IMO

Well I don't want to wait to get old before I Master these skills! again there is methods! yes people have some of these skills, but the art I study contains all of the skills! it is concidered the most complete due to fighting abilitys of the Disciples of Sigung as far as my own experience and Knowlege IMO

you not only learn the particular style, but my Shifu Shares Several arts that he has studied as well, and these are taught only to his disciples as well. as I can see in his students vs. his disciples

Whether or not Its for the 21 century that I cannot say But I will be living this century as a Disciple of My Shifu so I guess you will have to make your own opinions to this, as I can only be honored to learn this art to the best of my ability and whatever comes my way.

as far as other styles, I agree that they all have their own greatness about them, and I am not trying to put down any style I love MA, no matter where it comes from, as bruce lee would say" My Truth is not your Truth" I am not saying this is the only art but it is the art I study and have come to love.

so with this I say I wish you well in your search for the arts you love and hope for your sake that your teachers dont hold back even if it is Tradition as this is a Dying part of all martial arts that I would hate to see happen! :)

I would share more but the wife is calling :eek:

[EarthDragon]

7 gen yang,
Curious as to what taiji masters you speak of................. you said 10- 15 is this in las vegas nevada?

and what oath is it that you took for your shrfu?

[7th gen yang]

7 gen yang,
Curious as to what taiji masters you speak of................. you said 10- 15 is this in las vegas nevada?

and what oath is it that you took for your shrfu?

My shifu is in Los Angeles, Calif not in Nevada I have to travel to him and the 10 or so masters are in the rosemead/pasadena/temple city area of Los Angeles

It was an oath/promise not to share secrets they are to stay with me!

as far as I Know the Taiji Masters are private teachers, My shifu presented them as This is Master so and so and this is GM so and so I wish I could remember but does not matter I was just trying to give some insight to the thread :)

[7th gen yang]

again I'm not here to try to prove this or that

I can only share my experiences and what I have learned not anything more/anything less :) .

I will try to give my honest opinion, some things I cannot answer, some things I will make no comment on due to the nature of the subject, nor will I try to intimidate, and or Dishonor anyone., if you doubt what I say this is your own right, just as its mine to say my opinion, and give my experience.

again, The masters that I played with that day, and on other occasions are masters of the arts in their own right. I am not trying to put down their art they learned, they were very kind and generous to me and believe me, I would not take anyone for granted and certainly not these gentlemen!.

however, I was curious as to the methods my Shifu teaches and other Shifu's and the secrets I have learned, why haven't they been taught to all?, that is what occured to me when I played(practiced) with these teachers it was not intended as a direct attack on anyone or any of the masters I refer to.

I learned some of the highest levels of taiji that day and am continuing to learn

they shared with me as I am sharing with all of you.

If you took it wrong I am very sorry for the misunderstanding! :)

[SPJ]

Seven;

Everything takes time.

I posted in KF and Tai Chi sections only.

If you feel like you may share a bit, if not it is still ok.

A lot of time, he or she who knows will know. He or she that does not know will not know.

Even within the same style, you may run into misquote or misunderstanding.

It is very difficult to go into depth in English with a lot of Chinese terms.

And pictures, videos "speak" more clearly than words.

It is only just some chatting and exchange of views.

;)

[SPJ]

Talk more about your self and what do you think about things.

I sometime mentioned what my brother thinks.

I almost never "speak" for my "teachers".

:D

[7th gen yang]

Thanks for the understanding

I have read some of the posts by you SPJ

I Like what you have to say, you bring alot of knowledge to this forum :)

Training, still in progress for me, I am fortunate to have a good teacher and opprotunity's to learn the intricacies of Taijichuan, the things of legend or myths are not anymore.

Oh!! thanks for the chinese translations :)

[Vasquez]

closed door policy has been the norm for 1000s of years. why change now.