Bak Mo Kuen?

[hskwarrior]

Bak Mo Kuen........


there must be different versions in each branch or is it just a chan family set?

Lee Koon Hung's lineage has theirs, but i have a video of Chan Kin Man's daughter Chan Yuk Jan performing bak mo kuen and it looks totally different in every way.

so what do you think?


hsk

[CHAZ]

I agree, I have seen a clip of the Chan familys version, and compared to my lineages version, it is totally different. The same can be said for Siu Moi Fa Kuen again very different to Chan and Lee Koon Hung versions. :)

Chaz

[Lama Pai Sifu]

It seems like every CLF version is different. I spoke to Doc Fei Wong not to long ago, and he had mentioned that he attended a CLF banquet/celebration in China, where people demonstrated forms. He said he saw like 20 versions of Ping Kuyhnn! Fact is, if it's got So, Deng, Gwa, Kahp, Chaap, Jung, Pao, etc., it's CLF. But everyone's version seems to be different, and that's okay!

I have seen similarities to our branch in everyone's so far. But our content is a bit more extreme. I have seen DFW's stuff and the content is good, Lee Kwoon Hungs school seems to have better play then DFW's but I think DFW's has better content. Our style has a larger sphere of influence and encoupasses a variety of branches and lineages. I have lot's of stuff in my CLF that I have yet to see other CLF people do.

[()xx{}::::::::>]

ya, i recently learned bak mo kuen, and its a pretty kool form! i think there is a difference between the chan family and lee koon hungs version...i guess as long as the technique is similar its the same form...

my form is similar to this one (the second last clip), although i do my techniques a bit different, the form is pretty much the same:


http://www.choyleefut.com.au/update/gallery.asp


its weird...mak hin fai's school from seattle (student of lee koon hung) came up to vancouver for a demo, and i saw them do 'sup zi kao da', and it was pretty much the same form i know.

Are any of these 'bak mo kuen' videos/clips online? i would like to compare it to the form i learned...

i dont know if u guys have this in your ping kuen, but i think steps/path/footwork in ping kuen is suppose spell out the chinese character "ping". see if u guys notice it, the character looks like this '平'

btw, who is Chan Kin Man and Chan Yuk Jan???

[Sow Choy]

Bak Mo Kuen,

It seems many schools share the crossed stance and "Buy Fut" pose in this form... This is the longest set in our lineage, lots of turns, jumps and angle changes...

Doc Fai Wong,

I have seen several sets of theirs by his students and some of his videos... I would definitely say there content is not better, the same stuff but expressed differently... Problem is Lee Koon Hung only taught for 3 short years in the USA, so those who learned under him in that period learned their sets fast as he was trying to build up his school.

I have seen some of Doc Fai's advanced sets... they are the same as our intermediate sets, with the same techniques... CLF seems to just make more forms with the same techniques in a different pattern and think its new... haha

Everyone will think their CLF is more EXTREME then the next...


Joe

[Fu-Pow]

Here's a version. of Bak Mo Kuen, that I assume came form LKH...its performed by Corey Engelhard who is an instructor for John Wai.

http://www.floridakungfu.com/coreywm.wmv

[brothernumber9]

what is the story or influence behind the name of the set?

[Sow Choy]

Fu Pow,

That Bak Mo Kuen is from Wong Gong's branch (Chan Family)

John Wai currently studies with Wong Gong...

Joe

[Fu-Pow]

Fu Pow,

That Bak Mo Kuen is from Wong Gong's branch (Chan Family)

John Wai currently studies with Wong Gong...

Joe

Ah so.....

[()xx{}::::::::>]

Fu Pow,

That Bak Mo Kuen is from Wong Gong's branch (Chan Family)

John Wai currently studies with Wong Gong...

Joe



Which branch is the Ching Loong Gim performed by Francine Wai?

[Sow Choy]

Ching Loong Gim,

I believe this is from Wong Gong as well...

In the LKH branch we have Loong Hang Geem

Joe

[Lama Pai Sifu]

The challenge with CLF in this country, is that there are not too many lines/lineages. For the most part, the CLF teachers who have promoted their lines are Doc Fei Wong, Lee Gwoon Hung and the Lacey brothers. As I mentioned before, all CLF must have certain "Kuyhnn Jung" or "Fist Seeds." But there are a lot of other versions/lines of the style out there than people think.

It is kind of like a similiar situation as wing chun. Most people in this country come from the Yip Man line. Back in Fut San, Gwandong (Canton) people do a whole lot of other stuff in the Wing Chun.

This is why it is good to network and train with other Sifu and students from different branches. Techniques also seem to deteriate with time. Some students focus more on tournaments and less on practical application. As a result, sometimes the moves/techniques - change. For example, some CLF styles put there knee on the ground with the inside of their foot flat during a kneeling stance. Some styles of CLF would never put thier knee on the ground like that. Some styles do "deng jeung" "pressing palm" at a downward angle while some CLF school shoot out the arm parrallel to the floor.

What I'm getting at is; the differences in styles aren't just a matter of 'who taught who.' Some people have gotten it, some people haven't. Some students learned a little bit from their Sifu, they might not have been very athletic or skilled and then they teach. then they pass it on to the next generation and they pass it on as well. But 'water only rises as high as the source.' I have seen some technques that barely resemble what they once were. I learned CLF from the late Grandmaster Chan Tai-San. I am his senior disciple in CLF. I have practiced the style for 20 years and he had practiced it over 75 years. I had the opportunity to study from someone who learned the style before it got condensed, before forms got changed, before all the politics and before commercial schools became popular.

There are moves that I believe are lost to most branches of CLF as well as forms. I think that there is a lot more to CLF than most schools know right now. Dedicated CLF students should investigate this further.....

I will post some videos in the next week of some of out CLF sets. I will also post some apps as well. If anyone wants to do the same, I think it's a good idea. I will also show/discuss some of the advance stuff that we do, again, I emplore people to do the same. This way CLF grows and becomes even stronger!

No need for anyone to feel offended by my post, I know there are some sensitive people out there! I think all the schools or lineages/Sifus I mentioned are great! I am not trying to take anything away from anyone. Just making some observations and sharing some thoughts.

[Fu-Pow]

I will post some videos in the next week of some of out CLF sets. I will also post some apps as well. If anyone wants to do the same, I think it's a good idea. I will also show/discuss some of the advance stuff that we do, again, I emplore people to do the same. This way CLF grows and becomes even stronger!

.


That would be great. I'm very curious to see this "Green Cloud" CLF. What I neat time period we live in that we can instantly share videos over such a long distance and compare!

BTW, I now have the capability to convert some of my own videos to .wmv or real player files. Would anyone be willing to host some videos of myself, fellow students and Mak Sifu?

Thanks

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Actually, people have been calling it Green Cloud CLF for years. I am in a IKF aticle where we explained aspects of our unique line. We named if after the monestary where my teacher was raised and where it was taught. But I recently found out that we misread a character almost 20 years ago! It is not GREEN, but the CLEAR CLOUD MONESTARY. No Green Cloud.....Boy, did I feel stupid when I found this out! lol Good thing I didn't name my school after it!

If you look on my website, you'll get some info:

http://www.nykungfu.com/school/GrandmasterChanTai-San.asp (My Web Site)

[CLFNole]

For the most part it appears to be Chan Koon Pak's hung sing mixed with lama influences.

Can't say I have seen anyone do lok gwai ma with their knee actually on the ground (expect for beginners who have no leg strength :D).

Your point about thepalming could be simply the difference between cum (cover) jeurng and deng (nail) jeurng. But your right many techniques vary slightly from sifu to sifu.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Well, being that Lama Pai is a much older style (1426) who's to say exactly that all CLF doesn't have some Lama Influence? We already know that modern day Hung Ga (As taught by Wong Fei Hung) has many Lama techniques which were taught during the time when Wong Yan Lum occupied the number one spot on the Ten Tigers of Canton. I think it might be a matter of which came first; the chicken or the egg?

All CLF that I've seen had many Lama Techniques, Kahp, Pao, Biin, So, etc. Alas, we will probably never know. I do think that we have a different understanding of some of the aforementioned techniques because of our Lama training. But let me make something clear for the record; our style of CLF is not just Chan Goon Baak's teachings. There are many different Sifu in our lineage. Not to mention the fact that MY Sifu and HIS Sifu's were top level people learning under more top level people. There is a lot to be said about learning KF from a guy who started learning it at 8, fought in WWII with it, and actually killed people with it. (there are numerous stores on the thread: Chan Tai-San stories: on this forum).

All I'm saying is; "CLF people, keep an opened mind to what is out there. There is a lot of other stuff in the name of CLF than what some of you might know." No disrespect to anyone, and I'm not claiming that my stuff is any better than anyone else, or that I personally am better than anyone else. But I did learn some funky stuff that I haven't seen any other CLF people do (granted, I've not disected everyone's advanced stuff...yet) and I think there is a very L A R G E area of interpretation when it comes to how to do the stuff, and what the stuff really does and how to really use it. That's all.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Hey Nole, I can tell you ten tapes plus that you can buy, that show famous Sifu doing Gwaii Ma with the knee on the ground! Not gonna mention names, but they are out there buddy! Just look around....

And I do know the difference between covering and pressing palms. I wasn't talking about confusing the techniques, I'm talking about doing stuff wrong. There is a diffence....

[CLFNole]

Doing things wrong, well that opens up another can of worms entirely. What might be considered wrong to you and me, might be considered correct by someone else. Heck they might look at what you or I might do and say its wrong.

I think the only way we can say if something is right or wrong is if it is from our own direct lineage.

Personally I am just for the promotion of CLF. I could care less who's is better. It all comes down to the player. A gwa is gwa and a sow is a sow.

By the way where do you teach on the island I grew up near Riverhead.

[Ben Gash]

Amen to that 'Nole

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Nole, I teach in my Carle Place location, near Roosevelt Field, how old were you when you moved? My other location is on the border of Nassau county and Queens. You should come and visit sometime...

I agree that some schools of CLF might do somethings different than others. I do believe however, that although techniques do have variations, there are right and wrong ways to do techniques....do you agree?

Looking forward to strengthening the CLF community. In order to do so, I think we must question methods and concepts...only then can we discover the true path. (I sound like a fortune cookie!)

Long Live CLF!!!!!!!!

[Fu-Pow]

I agree that some schools of CLF might do somethings different than others. I do believe however, that although techniques do have variations, there are right and wrong ways to do techniques....do you agree?
!

I think that you can do things grossly wrong ie this technique will not accomplish what it is intended to accomplish. Then there "stylistic" differences which have more to do with how the technique is applied.

This is dependent upon your body type, attitude and, well, "style." For example, my Sifu is around 5'6" and I'm 6'7". Do you think that we would apply everything the same way? Who is right and who is wrong? Well, we're both "right" in our own way.

The most important thing is not the indvidual variation in the technique but that the practitioner is using the correct Jin/Ging in each technique. One technique can end up having many applications. No Jin/Ging=no effective applications.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I fully agree. Different size = different way to apply technique. Different size = different range/length of technique, amount of power, etc. Still doing it right, no matter whether it's a big or small guy. My Sifu was about 5'6" adn 140bs. I'm 6" and 220lbs., I definately can do things a bit different, not wrong, but different.

[hskwarrior]

is it possible that Lama Kung Fu could have been influenced by the likes of Choy Lee Fut and not the other way around? i mean it was and still is one of the most popular styles to come from asia.

Differences--stylistic or other wise is a good thing because the choy lee fut system would become very boring to watch after a while if everyone executed the exact same techniques the exact same way from here to kingdom come, and even more that much easier to defeat because we would all do the same stuff.

now, if we didn't have to luxury of "differences" than martial arts would not be beneficial to people like Fu Pow because of his height. Not everyone is as tall as him. because of his height, he cannot do the same techniques the same way as other people. all of this techniques would have to go somewhat of a downward angle to fight shorter people instead of doing them his own head level, which will make it more difficult. the same goes for people fighting someone 6'7". you won't be able to sow choy him in the head, all of your punches would have to go virtually upwards. this is where differences kick in, or should i say adapting.

see, a student is wrong and will be stuck in a rut if he believes that techniques are set in stone. hopefully we will have a good enough teacher to be able to assist in your personal quest of learning and using martial arts. it is always up to the new generations to take their clf into the next millenium and keep it growing.

if you are a fighter, and understand your martial arts well, than you can see- even in the weakest of techniques- the effectiveness of them, and then just make them work for you.

however, i agree with nole guacamole, forget whose is better and just keep working on yours.

anyways, on bak mo.......is that strictly a chan family set because i don't think fut san hsk has that set? also, could bak mo be more of "a few techniques" that most people have but added on to later on? it makes me wonder why are there only a few noticeable traces of moves from each school, branch etc, but the sets are almost completely different. sup gee , che kune, cheong kuen, kou da, i mean its all different from school to school.

are there specific techniques that are in each set all schools should have?


hsk

[CLFNole]

Lama Pai Sifu:

I moved to Florida when I was about 20 back in 1989. Growing up we had no kung fu around us and the city was way too far.

I agree techniques can be and are done wrong. My point was that by us merely watching a form without actually knowing that form as it was taught. We might think a technique should be used differently than the player might, thats all.

I also agree with Fu-Pow's point about techniques being different for different sizes. I am only 5'8" so I do the techniques as much like my sifu as possible since we were relatively close in height.

I would be interested to hearing which other CLF sifus that Chan Tai San studied with. I read he studied with Chan Sai Mo, who was the son of Chan Siu Hung. His lineage would also go back to Chan Koon Pak.

Frank:

Thats a good new nicname, might have to keep it. For those who don't know the Nole in CLFNole is not my name but represents the Florida State Seminoles as I went to college there and am a die-hard football fan. So the name combines my two favorite things: CLF and Football.

As far as what style influenced what. All styles have influences from other styles as there are only so many ways to kick and punch. All of the southern styles be it hop gar, hung gar, jow gar, hung fut or CLF have similar if not identical techniques. The older ones like hop gar/lama and hung gar likely influenced the newer ones like hung fut, CLF and jow gar. That doesn't mean that the newer ones didn't influence the older ones later on. ;)

[T. Cunningham]

The question of doing a technique right or wrong is answered by continuous study as well as testing. If the shape and energy are wrong, it will very quickly become evident when touching hands. My 2 cents..

Todd

[TenTigers]

http://www.hongluck.org./index.html
I have heard that Chan Dau was a classmate of Chan Tai-San, possibly his Si-Hing. This would explain them both having CLF and Lama. Chan Dau is also known for his hard Ch'i gung abilities. I have never seen their CLF, but it would be interesting to see if there are similarities.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Rick,

Who told you that Chan Dau was a classmate of my Sifu, CTS?

All of the adopted disciples of Jyu Jik Chuynn, the student of both Wong Yan Lum and Wong Lum Hoi (Lama) and a student of Chan Goon-Bak (CLF) all have the adopted name "San" in their name. Chan Tai-San, Lei Wei-San, Jyu Wan-San, etc. I have a list of all these people and Chan Dau is not a classmate of my Sifu within that lineage.

It is possible that they both studied under someone else in common, but I would have to call the Hung Luck club in Toronto to find out any other info. My Sifu taugtht there for a year or so in the mid-eighties.


As I mention before, CTS studied with many CLF people, so I'm sure it's possible that they had a Sifu in common at some point.

How's the school going, Rick?

[iron_silk]

I wondering where are the CLF clips CLFNole was talking about? On your site?

Also...I was just curious how come your screen name is "Lama Pai Sifu" when your favourite style was CLf? just wondering...

[Infrazael]

What is this Bak Mo Kuen, I probably know the name in English (I only speak Mandarin, and Cantonese is soooooo very confusing).

[JAZA]

White hair monkey form

[Infrazael]

I've never heard or seen that form in the LKH lineage. Can somebody clear my limited knowledge?

[Ben Gash]

Where did monkey come from? :confused: The name simply says white hair boxing. Are you perhaps confusing it with Tong Bei (white ape)?. I wouldn't say there's any monkey expression at all in the form.
Infrazeel, it's a moderately high level form that bears the hallmarks you typically see in forms of this level. It's hard for me to make comment as the form at my school is apparently different to the form at your schools (indeed, I never knew LKH schools did Bak Mo Kuen), but ours is probably on a par with the Heart of Bot Gwa form that Fu Pow did.

[Eddie]

yep, lee koon hung style we have bak mo kuen. but this is Sow Choy's cue to come in and explain further.

[CLFNole]

This is the longest of the hand forms in the Lee Koon Hung lineage. I have seen other versions such as Wong Gong's or Chan Kin Man's which are different and have seen some sections from the Chan Family that are similar.

In our version this form is very (very) long with a lot of jumping and kicking, angles and left and right side variations.

[Sow Choy]

Bak Mo,

From what I have learned, White hair can mean experience, or at this level you should have some time under your belt... My sifu has mentioned people refer to it as an animal... Can't translate what he said, one of those tranlastions that sounded like a wolverine or something, but I am just guessing...

Our form in the LKH lineage is very long and with many jumps as well as turns, so at 1st you can get dizzy (wun wun day), also in the beginning there is a posture with a low twist stance and "buy Fut", hands in prayer position...

There are a few back kicks while you lean foward with double tiger claws, lots of left side stuff, sows, chops the works... To me its my favorite training form, it has most of the main techniques in it... It makes Sup Gee look like a basic form, and after doing Bak Mo for a while, you can blaze riht through sup gee a couple of times...

It really is quite amazing how it can increas your stamina... 2x a week I practice Sup gee and Bak Mo back 2 back with 5 pounds on each wrist and ankle... After that everyting is cake...

Bak Mo seems to be a form that trains you to move around and change direction, it has some odd angles (bagua), and some unual changes...

The flow is much better than bagua sum... Personallt bagua sum is not one of my favorites, because the flow of it is kinda strange and that last part in our lineage with the foward and backward chops is odd...

Joe

[CLFNole]

Very odd. ;) But I have seen the sequence in some clips that were once on the Chan website.