Questions: The 8 Hard

[Ming Yue]

I have questions about these definitions of the 8 hard. Any clarification will be greatly appreciated. I came across these on the net somewhere and this list was credited to Sifu Brendan Lai and Sifu Henry Chung.

Dip Gow An Gong "Sticking And Elbowing Hard"
Upward and Downward Elbow Breaking Motions

may seem like a silly question, but does this refer specifically to breaking someone's elbow (arm bar), or does it have broader meaning -- simply using your elbow to strike a target?


Tip Moon Kau Bei "Sticking To The Door Leaning Hard"
Ramping Techniques

what is 'ramping'? throws or setups for throws?


An Bong Fok Tsai "Strike Hard Above And Kick Below"
(Elusive Techniques)

My guess is that this is fake high/strike low or a fake low/strike high. I was wondering if it instead applied to simultaneous double gate attacks.


Chor Yau Seung Gwan "Left and Right Hooking Attacks"
(Confusing Techniques)

Again more semantics - hooking as an attack, or hooking that leads to the attack?



TIA,
Cynthia
:)

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

cindy,

i studied a style not by those sifu which utilises those principles and the ideas that you guess at are good starting points. the more you play with those principles the more technique you will develop. pm me for a place....

lilingpi.

[Mika]

I am sure this helps you none, but here goes...


Eight hard methods (ba gang)

1.

TAI SHAN YA DING (powerful downward strike)
2.

YING MIAN ZHI TONG (straight strike)
3.

HUN BU SHUANG ZHANG (hand push)
4.

DIE ZHOU YING GONG (elbow strike)
5.

TIE MEN KAO BI (sticking, responding to force with force)
6.

YING BENG FU DI (powerful up and down attack)
7.

ZUO YOU SHUANG GUN (powerful double block)
8.

SHUAI LU LIANG FEN (throw, intercepting).



More here (www.tanglangmen.com).

Cheers,

Mika

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

interesting website. cyrillic-based mantis descriptions. which language, specifically?
some words i don't recognize but look like pidgin additions.

[Ming Yue]

It's polish, and it's a little helpful, thanks!
:)

[libingshao]

Ming Yue,

I am not sure I can assist but here goes. :)

Many teachers view the Ba Gang as concepts or principles rather than specific techiques. Also the Eight Hard categories differ in some respects from family to family.

Eight Hard is actually not as precise as it could be. Rigid techniques are those that are difficult to change into other techniques once begun.

1. TAI SHAN YA DING (powerful downward strike) All downward striking movements using gravity and hopefully body mass to increase force.

2. YING MIAN ZHI TONG (straight strike) Strikes the use body torque or momentum to strike directly at the opponent.

3. HUN BU SHUANG ZHANG (hand push) The actual name here is two palms being used to strike with a forward step.

4. DIE ZHOU YING GONG or Dip Gow An Gong "Sticking And Elbowing Hard"
(elbow strike) Die is to pile on top. It could be arms it could be the head as in Bai Yuan Tou Tao, stealing the peach.

5. TIE MEN KAO BI or Tip Moon Kau Bei "Sticking To The Door Leaning Hard"
Ramping Techniques (sticking, responding to force with force) Tie means to adhere to Kao means to lean on. There are many strikes that occur while sticking close to the body of the opponent and leaning one's weight on them while striking or the "leaning" could be itself the strike. It could be a misprint but I think they might have meant "Ramming" or it could be thatn they see the other's body as a "ramp" that they are traveling across while striking.

6. YING BENG FU DI- or An Bong Fok Tsai "Strike Hard Above And Kick Below"
(Elusive Techniques) powerful up and down attack. I could be way off on this one but I know this as striking hard above but defeating below with hidden techniques to the lower body, (could be feet, could be a ducking below takedown for example).


7. ZUO YOU SHUANG GUN or Chor Yau Seung Gwan (powerful double block) THis is a category of techniques that hit right/left or above/below, below/above aor around outside to confuse the opponent.


8. SHUAI LU LIANG FEN (throw, intercepting) Dividing the opponent's balance and throwing.

I believe that other people on this list can do a better job but no one has undertaking it in detail. Perhaps this will get them going correcting me.

Libingshao

[yu shan]

libingshao

good information thank you for sharing

[Ming Yue]

yes thanks much libingshao! That was a great help.

I'm applying the 8 hard to my forms (part assignment, mostly for fun).

One thing I love about mantis is that when you consider even basic conceptual definitions like the 8 hard, it's like looking at a folded piece of paper. It may be only one page of a very big book, but every time you unfold a corner, you get a whole new picture to look at.

[libingshao]

Your welcome. (I am still waiting to be corrected by someone knowing better than I).

Libingshao

[mantis108]

The first documentation of the 8 Hard 12 Fluid is found in the Classic of Sword (Jian Jing 1567 CE?) by the mentor of General Qi jiguang, General Yu Daiyou (1504 - 1580 CE).

There are bascially 3 main sonnets that summarize the Classic of Sword. The first one outlines that 8 H 12 F. Second one expounds further on the concpet of Hard and fluid. The final one goes into the relationship of Yinyang, arms, legs and body (the basis of the 3 straights of southern fists mechanics IMHO). Although they are just a few lines but they contain the essence of stick fighting.

If we look at the second sonnet, we will understand the function of Hard (gang) and Fluid (rou).

A rough translation:

Hard presents before his strength
Fluid rides after his power
He is preoccupied while I await with calmness
you are feel to figth him with the understanding of the parrying slap *.

Note:

* Parrying slap refers to the timing and aim required to hit the taget.

Just a few thoughts for now.

Mantis108

[Three Harmonies]

Libingshao,
Thanks for sharing. Very similar to our 8 Hard. Which lineage do you come from?
Thanks
Jake :cool:

[libingshao]

Three Harmonies,

I have read that you are actually of Six Harmony Mantis line (numerical pun). I have little knowledge of that line so that we are similar is interesting.

I hope that you understand if I defer the question of my own training. I have trained under a few teachers and am just now getting into the public eye. (I hope it was a good decision). It seems that this internet world can be pretty nasty and I trying to avoid this while attempting to dialogue and understand the politics.

Libingshao

[Three Harmonies]

Well read closer because we also do Meihua.
Not sure of your hesitancy??

Jake

[TaichiMantis]

Three Harmonies,

I have read that you are actually of Six Harmony Mantis line (numerical pun). I have little knowledge of that line so that we are similar is interesting.

I hope that you understand if I defer the question of my own training. I have trained under a few teachers and am just now getting into the public eye. (I hope it was a good decision). It seems that this internet world can be pretty nasty and I trying to avoid this while attempting to dialogue and understand the politics.

Libingshao

I understand you completely, it is a fine line to tread.

[EarthDragon]

libingshao,
I understand completely. Most everyone on this board is very respectful and only interested in sharing, learning and discussing our knowledge of the thing we all love.
There are a few whom tend to rear thier ugly heads, but for the most part we all share our love of the system and creation of mantis. be well

[Mika]

There are a few whom tend to rear thier ugly heads--

Not anymore there ain't. :)

[MightyB]

First of all, don't be confused with the name 8 hard. Hard is more brute strength soft is more intrinsic strength. The 8 hard.

You'll need to know some medium to advanced forms and I write in phonetic Cantonese-- I write how it sounds to me.

1 Tai San Ngat Ding (powerful downward strike)
Learn Su Fon Che. Hook, then use a pak choi downward strike. Tai San Ngat Ding... usually executed to what we refer to as the "Life gate" or outside of the attacking arm.


2 Ying Mien Jik Tong (straight strike) From Su Fon Che or Dai Fon Che... always follows Tai San Ngat Ding... After executing Tai San Ngat Ding, The opponent blocks, you hook his blocking arm and punch straight to the face... Repeated many times in this order in Dai Fon Che. Actually, you would Tai San Ngat Ding, Ying Mien Jik Tong when describing how to apply these techniques... as in the form Dai Fon Che-- you would follow the straight strike with a second straight strike with the other hand to the opponents body... it's found in dai fon che (my spelling will suck) 1. Tai San Ngat Ding 2. Ying Mien Jik Tong 3. Ha fu tow som (see, my spelling is horrible for Cantonese words) Do the form Dai Fon Che.

3. Sun Bo Seung Jeung (hand push)
Double hand strike to the body executed with a shuffle step. Its found in the form Tu Jin.

4. Dip Gow An Gong "Sticking And Elbowing Hard". It's not an elbow strike. It's a Chin Na take down move. From the form Dow Gon. The opponent grabs your wrist. You apply the wrist wrap and step up into his Life Gate and while still holding his wrist, you use your elbow to drive against his elbow and drive him down. It's in a lot of forms. Black Tiger Steals the Heart has it "Ha Fu Gow Cha".

5 Tip Moon Kau Be "Sticking To The Door Leaning Hard"
It's the move from White Ape Exits the Cave "Bot Yun Chit Don" near the beginning. After you break your opponent's elbow, you deflect his left arm with your right and slide into the yit man bo stance with your arms in a circle. Your left palm is agains your right wrist and the outside of your right forearm is throwing your opponent back. If you know the form, you know the move. It's found in many forms.

6 An Bong Fok Tsai "Strike Hard Above And Kick Below"
It's found in Black Tiger Steals the Heart or "Ha Fu Gow Cha". It's a Bung Choi or downward strike with the backfist and a kick to the groin delivered Simultaneously (with the right hand and right foot).

7. Chor Yau Seung Gwa. Refers to using the Hin Choi (hooking punches) to attack the left and right side of the head. It's found in Sub Sa Lo and near the end of Su Fon Che.

8 Sut Sao Lun Fun "Blocking Midline Attacks To The Side Then Chopping"
Exactly how it sounds.

[K.Brazier]

There is no word in #6 that mean kick.
Hard collapse ambush from below.

[Ming Yue]

Mighty B, thanks very much. Your citing forms was a big help.

And if you think your phonetic spelling is bad, you should hear me trying to sound that stuff out. :)