evolution and the Sifu's role in ensuring reliability of martial techniques

[Sifu Darkfist]

The "Martial arts" continue to evolve as our mental capacities and physical capabilities become more complex and powerful. It is up to the Sifu of the school to question all that he has engulfed during training in order to continue the refinement of combat training. It is extremely important to preserve the integrity of historical styles, however it must carry a "disclaimer" with techniques that are clearly outdated. The Sifu should engage in Quality control for the combat session of the class ( which we keep seperate from the traditional section) due to its everchanging form and regular reliability tests. In order for us to evolve the art into the next generation of competent Martial artists we must make our students better than we are. how do you feel?

[libingshao]

Sifu Darkfist,

I am probably not the most experienced person to make such judgements. As such, I would like to hear about real-world experience that I could take as a paradigm and apply to my own perspective. If you would not mind, please indulge me my ignorance and give me an example of Shoufa, Tuifa, Shuaifa or Nafa (for those even less proficient in Chinese than me, that's hand, foot, throw or lock and holding techniques), that your own sifu taught you, that is outdated and that you have had to set aside?

Thank you for what is, for me, a surprising, and I am sure enlightening topic that I really had not thought about.

Libingshao

[Sifu Darkfist]

Where in my statement did the words the techniques my Sifu taught are no longer teachable? the exact statement was "It is extremely important to preserve the integrity of historical styles, however it must carry a "disclaimer" with techniques that are clearly outdated." And as this statement is presented there have been several that my SIFU HAS POINTED OUT TO ME AS ANCIENT AND NOT APPLICABLE to real situations.Unless you are one of my kung fu brothers (and i suspect by the baited remarks you might be a certain one) privy to the exact techniques i would name. Thereore i cannot respect your question as valid. rather it is only meant to be provocative. This is evidenced by your flagrant misquote of my statement. Clearly if this statement has perplexed you there has not been any real confrontations faced in your life and it seems that from what you have said there will unlikely be any in the near future. The thread i started was about the responsibility of the teacher to produce capable fighting students that can use the techniques and decipher what is likely to prevail in real hand to hand combat.

[TaichiMantis]

This reminds me of a thread I started on another board asking if anyone had used techniques unique to their style in a fight. If we cannot use the techniques we learn from our traditional styles to defend ourselves, what is the purpose? How do we use our style against brawlers? grapplers? what weapons can we grab and use from our surroundings?

Of course there are universal things like speed, balance, relaxation, awareness. Then there are more specific things that separate eastern and western like energy flow, where power is generated etc., and finally the techniques that are unique to the style you studied.

[libingshao]

Where in my statement did the words the techniques my Sifu taught are no longer teachable? the exact statement was "It is extremely important to preserve the integrity of historical styles, however it must carry a "disclaimer" with techniques that are clearly outdated." And as this statement is presented there have been several that my SIFU HAS POINTED OUT TO ME AS ANCIENT AND NOT APPLICABLE to real situations.Unless you are one of my kung fu brothers (and i suspect by the baited remarks you might be a certain one) privy to the exact techniques i would name. Thereore i cannot respect your question as valid. rather it is only meant to be provocative. This is evidenced by your flagrant misquote of my statement. Clearly if this statement has perplexed you there has not been any real confrontations faced in your life and it seems that from what you have said there will unlikely be any in the near future. The thread i started was about the responsibility of the teacher to produce capable fighting students that can use the techniques and decipher what is likely to prevail in real hand to hand combat.

Sifu Darkfist,

First and foremost, my most profound appologies for offending you. It was certainly never my intent to "bait" you in any regard.

Second, however, I never said that any techniques were "not teachable". I understood clearly your meaning in this regard and never questioned it. You are being offended by something I did not say.

But, to try again, this time using your words so that I am not misunderstood, could you give an example of a technique that is judged as ANCIENT AND NOT APPLICABLE by either your teacher or from your own research? Failing that, (as it seems that you may not wish to give a technique as an example) don't give a technique at all, just give the criteria you go by.

Or, if you wish, you may continue to berate me for my lack of experience, (something I stated at the outset in my original question). I assure you I will not be offended. As as you are simply stating (albiet in more strident terms) something I have already said, it is rather like pressing a nerf ball, when you tire of doing it, I will bounce back and hopefully we can continue the discussion.

Libingshao

[BeiTangLang]

I was kind of curious as to the non-applicable techniques as well.....

[shirkers1]

From my own point of view on this topic, I know when I workout with the guys and we're training something.. I find my self saying, "now I've seen it done this way and I've seen it done this way or we do it this way others do it this way". Giving examples of how a tactic is used and executed by some people. Also I tend to say "now I've never actually used this in a free fighting situation, or I've used this and like it a lot". But that doesn't mean that some one else won't be able to use said technique, it may fit them better than me. Whether it's just something I don't train against a resisting oponent enough to be able to apply it or I just don't like the technique, if it's in the system then teach it.

[-N-]

Well, here's a "sort of" example...

Inch kick, the one with the point of the shoe targeting the shin. The toes are pointed. Works well if you have hard shoes on. If you do it wearing soft toed shoes, you could have a problem.

So, if you're wearing running shoes, you might have to modify that kick. If you're in a business meeting wearing a suit and tie and leather oxfords, feel free to kick some azz if the marketing director tries to attack you :)

N.

[libingshao]

N

I also have considered the use of my safety shoes. Also I have thought about cold winters where we might wear heavy coats and mittens. Not much sophisticated Tanglang Shoufa but Beng, Fanche, Lulu, Lianhuan Zhang. No kicking in the snow at all.

Libingshou

[-N-]

I also have considered the use of my safety shoes. Also I have thought about cold winters where we might wear heavy coats and mittens. Not much sophisticated Tanglang Shoufa but Beng, Fanche, Lulu, Lianhuan Zhang.Sounds about right :)


No kicking in the snow at all.Not even the scraping down shin kick if you're close enough and already have a hand on the other person?

N.

[BeiTangLang]

Yes,...but both of those are not factors that the Chinese didn't deal with back then. They had soft shoes & cold winters too. Climate & fashion have to be taken into consideration while doing ones techniques; They do not mean the techniques will not work at all.

[Oso]

Great Topic.

I think a lot of CMA applications are really only good against someone else doing CMA. I see these as the outdated techniques that Sifu Darkfist talks about.

Waist Chopping is one I think. Any jujitsu, judo or wrestling practitioner of minimal experience is going to escape that set up w/ relative ease or reverse it. The theory of off balancing behind the throw is dead on though so it just needs to be reevaluated and modified (evolve) to be effective against a competent grappler yet still be 'waist chopping'.

I also agree with this statement wholeheartedly.


combat session of the class ( which we keep seperate from the traditional section) due to its everchanging form and regular reliability tests.

i had a big problem last year with a tourney that I wanted to take some students to to fight in. they have a requirement that anyone sparring must do a form first to show an example of their style so that the judges can then decide during the match if the competitor is fighting 'in style'. I had two students w/ less then 6 months experience who only knew some tan tui's...not really a 'form', just line drills. i debated it with the promoter for a week or two but decided I thought it was bogus and we didn't go.

in my fighting class the techniques that are taught first are very generic, fan che by any other name is a hammer fist.

straight punch, round punch, uppercut, straight kick, round kick, hip throw, ankle sweep pretty much sums up the first things I teach. Along with lessons in positioning, ranging etc. Later on I tie them in with forms and traditional 'names' like deng ta and deng pu. In this way, people who want to fight can start fighting with a smaller skill set and be effective with it.

[BeiTangLang]

Once again though, just because a technique doesn't always work on another trained martial artist does not mean its not a good one. When the technique fails on me in usage, it usually during the crossover. No big deal, go with another technique.
If you do get the crossover, rarely do I just think of it just as a throw; I strike the waist area (gently of course for training) & while I've never just unleashed the strike, I can imagine that those muscles being torqued when they are hit cannot feel just real good. plus, converting it into a rib punch amongst other things are also viable & within the mantis curriculum (at least as I see it).

Best wishes,
~BTL

[libingshao]

Oso,

If I read your post accurately, (something I am very mindful about of late), you must be talking about the Stamping Rooster Posture with Waist Chop. (Hong Kong folks call this a "Seven Star Posture with Waist Chop"). Am I correct as to your reference?

If so, then you refer to one of the most refined expressions of the Waist Chop art available and I agree with you that it would be hard to do on a skilled grappler. However there are several other expressions of this strike that might work better especially when coupled with good entries. Not having a common vocabulary perhaps these would help; a waist chop with kneeling step cutting underneath the attempt to grab by a grappler, waist chop from the Hill Climbing posture. Also there it the range at which this technique is attempted. Most people, it seems, attempt it from too far away and by only grabbing the wrist of the opponent and give anyone, not just grapplers, a chance to escape. This is, as I said before, the highest expression of the art, (at least as I know it, if I am incorrect someone please save me from my ignorance).

Even using the Stamping Rooster posture you can grab his neck instead of his arm, pull the same way and step into your throw/chop from passing his arm while you brach his leg. You can get away from it but even a grappler will get a nasty chop to the ribs as he goes.

THere is technique as it is defined in the forms, the waist chop. There is then the principles, in this case disrupting the six harmonies to throw. The variations become available when one examines all aspects of the technique/principle. These things are not "throwing out" techniques, they are, I was taught, learning to use them.

After all this I hope that I am not assuming wrong in your reference. :)

Libingshao

[Oso]

very busy at work today...

but, just to clarify my frame of mind when looking at ANY technique: I always work within the context of a worst case situation. I try to think about how the technique could be defeated and in today's world I think it important to determine if a grappler can defeat it.

I feel like this is what Sifu Darkfist is getting at. Anylisis and Testing.

I personally am going to try to learn and understand the theory and application behind everything my teachers show me but what ends up in my toolbox, and what I end up helping my students pick to go in their toolbox, has to go through very critical anylisis and testing against other peeps besides the same ugly faces I see in class every week.

that's why we go spar against a karate/jujitsu school as often as possible.

[libingshao]

Sounds about right :)

Not even the scraping down shin kick if you're close enough and already have a hand on the other person?

N.

N,

You are quite likely correct in the context of having ahold of the guy. I just have fallen down so many, many, many times in the snow while just walking that I am now leary. :) Just my bad balance I guess.

Good point!

Libingshao

[mantis108]

Great Topic.

I think a lot of CMA applications are really only good against someone else doing CMA. I see these as the outdated techniques that Sifu Darkfist talks about.

Well, I said this before that nowadays TCMA has too much (pardon the expression) inbreeding going on. So... Unless it wakes up and smells the coffee. The wet dream will still go on. Sorry, hard pill to swallow but when it comes to fighting TCMA these days are really trailing badly behind.


Waist Chopping is one I think. Any jujitsu, judo or wrestling practitioner of minimal experience is going to escape that set up w/ relative ease or reverse it. The theory of off balancing behind the throw is dead on though so it just needs to be reevaluated and modified (evolve) to be effective against a competent grappler yet still be 'waist chopping'.

The same could be argued for any jujitsu, judo or even wrestling move. That's why you never bank on one technique (one punch one kill mindset) to do the job for you. It's about combinations. Even boxing advocate combinations. But to drill that you will need aliveness and all that. So... Don't look at the finger pointing to the moon, or you will miss the heavenly glory [good old Brucy]. ;)


i had a big problem last year with a tourney that I wanted to take some students to to fight in. they have a requirement that anyone sparring must do a form first to show an example of their style so that the judges can then decide during the match if the competitor is fighting 'in style'. I had two students w/ less then 6 months experience who only knew some tan tui's...not really a 'form', just line drills. i debated it with the promoter for a week or two but decided I thought it was bogus and we didn't go.

Well, my friend, I suspect you have to answer to your own organization on progress. So, you hands are tied. If I were you, I would have started right away with the Qishou (7 hands). There is no reason IME that a willing person can't pick up that form in a very short time and be able to use every technique in that form. Especially, you have competition experiences and IMHO have very good graspe on throws and grappling techs. It wouldn't be a problem at all to show the student all that. It's more or less a teaching focus issue IMHO. I must stress that I mean no disrespect to Ponglai. I believe Ponglai is a formidable style and I will not hesitate to recommand anyone to train in it.


in my fighting class the techniques that are taught first are very generic, fan che by any other name is a hammer fist.

straight punch, round punch, uppercut, straight kick, round kick, hip throw, ankle sweep pretty much sums up the first things I teach. Along with lessons in positioning, ranging etc. Later on I tie them in with forms and traditional 'names' like deng ta and deng pu. In this way, people who want to fight can start fighting with a smaller skill set and be effective with it.

These days, I start off training people with a comprehensive grappling program with hook grab pluck and feng shou drill. Beside the Ba Da Ma Bu (8 basic stances) and 12 Sau Fa/shou fa that are unique to CCK TCPM, I go right into the Qishou form which also will have 6 Kao Dao to drill both impact and throws mechanics. Other than that I think we are pretty much similar on the generic stuff there. :)

Warm regards

Robert

[Oso]

Well, I said this before that nowadays TCMA has too much (pardon the expression) inbreeding going on. So... Unless it wakes up and smells the coffee. The wet dream will still go on. Sorry, hard pill to swallow but when it comes to fighting TCMA these days are really trailing badly behind.

agreed



The same could be argued for any jujitsu, judo or even wrestling move. That's why you never bank on one technique (one punch one kill mindset) to do the job for you. It's about combinations. Even boxing advocate combinations. But to drill that you will need aliveness and all that. So... Don't look at the finger pointing to the moon, or you will miss the heavenly glory [good old Brucy]. ;)


true, but when you discuss that attributes of any single technique you tend to just look at the pros and cons of that one movement. you just can't get trapped into thinking just one technique at a time once you get to fighting

'waist chopping' is just on my mind a lot now. :p



Well, my friend, I suspect you have to answer to your own organization on progress. So, you hands are tied. If I were you, I would have started right away with the Qishou (7 hands). There is no reason IME that a willing person can't pick up that form in a very short time and be able to use every technique in that form. Especially, you have competition experiences and IMHO have very good graspe on throws and grappling techs. It wouldn't be a problem at all to show the student all that. It's more or less a teaching focus issue IMHO. I must stress that I mean no disrespect to Ponglai. I believe Ponglai is a formidable style and I will not hesitate to recommand anyone to train in it.


well, the more I learn of Pong Lai the more I see the logic of how it's layed out.
and, just MHO here, but the trick of seeing 'Pong Lai' in our basics is to know the ling side of everything...every time I learn something new I see bits and pieces of it in such seemingly mundane stuff like the tan tui's.

I think I disagree a bit on Qishou...some things are simple but most of it is not so simple.

we've spent the last two sparring sessions working application and combo's out of just the bung and ling sides of our Tan Tui #1.


These days, I start off training people with a comprehensive grappling program with hook grab pluck and feng shou drill. Beside the Ba Da Ma Bu (8 basic stances) and 12 Sau Fa/shou fa that are unique to CCK TCPM, I go right into the Qishou form which also will have 6 Kao Dao to drill both impact and throws mechanics. Other than that I think we are pretty much similar on the generic stuff there. :)

Warm regards

Robert

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[Sifu Darkfist]

Well i was out of town for 3 days i apoligize esp to Shao. I had no bis attacking you however it is very important in this CMA world to get quotes exactly right when you are Quoting controversial characters (or for lack of a better word unsavory or god forbid infamous). A quick example is in Shao hu Yeun the Jump double chop land
all i can say is you will never face anyone that will ever set themselves in that position, 2 xi xing Zai yao assuming that you fight like a true mantis, in the 30 seconds or less it takes to Finish ( no pun intended Mika ok maybe a little...) no one will ever allow you tospin your arms up and around to hit their chin in such a slow manner. ( and dont say im slow i have tape of bung bu in 28)

[libingshao]

Sifu Darkfist,

Believe me no offense taken. :) It is clear from your response that you are in a politically-charged atmosphere, (something I hope to steer clear of with my anonymity on this board). I know that someone in the public eye as you are must respond to challenges and must evaluate every interrogative as a possible gambit.

Thank you for your clear description of a movement. The form you are describing is a Long Fist Mantis set, is it not? I think Shifu Gao Tao Shen has a book on this that I can get my hands on and I would be happy to look the movement if you can give me an approximate movement number, (hope I am not asking too much). I don't know this set at all.

Again my thanks for the clear answer to my query.

Libingshao

[Sifu Darkfist]

well for me it is hard to number such things because my one movements constitute many movements for others.i can say it is within the first ten the first abrupt body direction change. However you have brought up a great point many longfist techniques are over. so we can dwell on which or admit to the flaws in ancient human development. if we as men cannot admit the shortcomings of our predecessors than we must submit to the mania that was here during the boxer revolution when the masters thought they were involunrable to lead shot a prospect that proved ridiculous.

[monkeyfoot]

I think that it is important to teach everything in a system, but you dont have to keep everything in your toolbox (as someone previously said).

Aswell I dont think techniques are dated as such, its just some techniques are more practical/better than others. I find that some of the applications in the form Gung Lik Kuen are not really that great and I feel that they are very inferior to other techniques.....so I will hardly ever use them. But then on the other hand my girlfriend finds some things practical which I do not.

craig