Thinking out Loud

[KPM]

Hey Guys!

Many many years ago I used to attend and compete in some of the open point-sparring tournaments. It always disappointed me that you could watch the Blackbelt forms competition at the beginning of the day and see all kinds of cool and interesting styles represented. But then when you put them in a ring to spar...everyone looked the same! Gone where the signature moves and techniques of the style that were shown in the forms competition. You couldn't tell TKD from Karate from Kung Fu. And this was consistent for the 3 yrs or so that I went to the tournaments.

Mainland China...the home of traditional Kung Fu....in recent years has kindled an interest in sparring competitions. They call it San Da. I've seen a few of the bouts that people have posted. Again.....you typically can't tell Hsing I from Northern Shaolin from Praying Mantis etc. It always looks like some form of kickboxing.

Various WCK people have posted sparring clips either here or on their websites. Again, you seldom if ever see actual classical WCK being used. Its makes me wonder when you see people sparring in an obvious WCK school with banners and a Mook Jong in the background but the sparring again looks like some form of kickboxing.

There was even an old clip posted of supposedly "traditional" Kung Fu masters sparring in a ring and you couldn't tell what style they were supposed to be doing. No signature moves. No stylistic moves that they had been years cultivating in their various forms. It didn't even look like good kickboxing. It looked like schoolyard slap boxing!

When I've seen some good WCK people really mixing it up in Chi Sau, a large percentage of time their structure goes out the window. I know, I know....some will say that you learn the structure, it becomes internalized, and then you can discard it. I'm not so sure of that.

I have Alan Orr's series of videos on "body structure sparring", which is an excellent set of vids. He is certainly working from a WCK base, but guess what....his result still looks like a form of WCK kickboxing and not "classical" WCK.

I've noticed in my own sparring sessions that it is hard to maintain a WCK structure and approach. It seems to naturally degenerate (maybe not the right word) into a kickboxing-type bout. So I can't fault those that show sparring clips that don't look much like WCK.

So what am I getting at here? First of all, it seems that when you put big boxing gloves on people, everything looks like boxing! But I've also been thinking recently that maybe there is a more natural way to move and fight. When you put people in a sparring situation, the evidence I have seen (though admittedly limited) suggests that people are going to naturally resort to some kind of kickboxing structure when they are put under pressure. So rather than working so very hard to develop a certain system ....be it WCK or something else....and make it work in sparring/fighting, maybe it would be better to "reverse engineer" by taking natural reactions in sparring situations and build on them. I'm thinking of Mannie's Hakarac Boxing, and Victor's approach to things. Maybe they are onto something. Maybe the way to "evolve" is to take a boxing base or structure and meld it with WCK hands. Panantukan is "filipino boxing" that some say came about when Johnny LaCoste took his knowledge of traditional Kali hand techniques and melded it onto a boxing structure. Maybe what Victor and some others have been working toward is a "WCK boxing"....a modern-day spin off of traditional WCK. And this would seem more appropriate for those that like to put on the gear and really "mix it up." Am I rambling now? :) What do you guys think?


Keith

P.S. Just got back from Border's Bookstore after writing this post earlier today. Was browsing thru the martial arts book section and came across one called "The Sabaki Method." It showed all kinds of technique and sparring strategy from "Enshin" Karate. This appears to be a "modernized" version of classical Karate. Guess what......? Rather than powering from a low stance with a locked rear knee as in classical karate, they are using much more of a boxing base and foundation. Rather than being very upright with shoulders back and throwing punches from the waist, they have shoulders rolled forward with chin tucked in and throw from the shoulder. In short, it looked like Karate melded onto a boxing base or structure. Just further food for thought.

[jyu]

Hey man, I totally agree with what you wrote. But I would look at things from a different perspective. I think it is normal why people from all style fighting the same is because that is natural fighting. Instead I look at martial arts as a blueprint of refining one's natural fighting ability, and not making them into a cat, dragon, crane, robots. etc etc. That way, I feel one is honest to themselve and training serves purpose and not just to perform your perfect technqiue because sifu says it will work 100%. But maybe a blend of boxing with wck might bring something interesting out.

[anerlich]

Both posts above make sense.

To my mind, there are many similarities between TWC and Jack Dempsey's boxing style, as detailed in "Championship Fighting".

Most kickboxing rules prevent stomp and side kicks to the knees, etc., IMO for good reason. Groin kicks are also proscribed for obvious reasons. You're left with few other effective options other than roundhouse kicks for the legs. Flashy kicking and turning your back is as ill advised on the ring as it is on the street, so you're going to stick with basic movements which work, though some skilled or gifted athletes can break those guidelines on occasion.

Put gloves on of sufficient padding to be of any value in full contact kickboxing, most of your WC hand techs other than punches are gone anyway. Most of the chi sao attributes rely on creating and exploiting the small gaps that disappear when you both wear pillows on your hands, Plus you can't grab, though you can use larp sao, etc. as parries to some extent.

If you've got big heavy pillows on your hands, it makes defensive sense to keep them closer to your head for protection rather than fatigue your shoulders by holding them out in a more extended WC guard.

Other than Genki Sudo, who is a special case and not a KF stylist anyway, I've yet to see an effective full contact victory in kickboxing or MMA by a stylist deviating far from a kickboxing or MT structure. This includes my instructor and successful fighters from my own academy.

[Edmund]

Good thoughts Keith.


A couple of my own to add:
1. A lot of the "signature moves" in traditional arts (inc. WC) are just plain unrealistic. They aren't going to be seen in decent sparring because they are not much use in application. So traditional arts in application were never meant to look like a form. There's no point in trying to stick to the classical look of forms while sparring. That is just for training or looking good. The stuff that is useful is simple techniques like plain punches and kicks, simple defences.


2. Having said that, there are a lot of different ways to apply simple techniques. Different styles will have different philosophies on techniques and strategies. To say that it is all kickboxing isn't saying much because there's a lot of different approaches to kickboxing. It's a fairly inclusive sport due to the rules (esp. Muay Thai which allows some clinching, elbowing and kneeing). A keen eye can pick that some kickboxers have a TKD style in their background for instance. Or that some have a kyokushin background. Or they've done a lot of boxing. Everyone doesn't look the same once you look deeper into what they are doing.

3. There's still a lot of ways to skin a cat even though it all looks similar. But if WC people aren't even looking at sparring as a useful training method or test of skills, then it's all a moot point. There are some MA tournaments that ARE useless due to the rules making it more a fun sport than a fight. Basing your training off succeeding in those sorts of sports makes you just as useless in a real fight as doing no sparring at all.




Mainland China...the home of traditional Kung Fu....in recent years has kindled an interest in sparring competitions. They call it San Da. I've seen a few of the bouts that people have posted. Again.....you typically can't tell Hsing I from Northern Shaolin from Praying Mantis etc. It always looks like some form of kickboxing.

Various WCK people have posted sparring clips either here or on their websites. Again, you seldom if ever see actual classical WCK being used. Its makes me wonder when you see people sparring in an obvious WCK school with banners and a Mook Jong in the background but the sparring again looks like some form of kickboxing.

[YongChun]

If you replace the word kickboxing with boxing then the sentence: everything looks like boxing doesn't do justice to the art of boxing. The little details might not be noticeable to the average guy on the street but there is a world of difference between the various boxers like Mohammed Ali, Joe Frazer, George Foreman, Sugar Ray Leonard, Joe Lewis etc.

A second point is when you watch a Judo guy against a beginner you see all the techniques and beautiful throws. When you see two equally skilled people then Judo looks very ugly. The same might be true of two evely matched teams in anything?

Against a beginner I can use every Wing Chun technique and have beautiful movie style form. Against Emin Boztepe, Kenneth Chung, Mike Tyson, and some of the UFC champs, I wouldn't be able to get much of anything working. My side would look ugly but their side might look good. I would have to throw out nearly everything and keep to the simplest of simple stuff.

I noticed that good boxers can fight with a fair amount of style. It doesn't look like the typical tough man competitions where all the local bikers partake. So I think some of the look of a fight depends on skill level and after that relative skill level.

[KPM]

Hey Edmund!

1. A lot of the "signature moves" in traditional arts (inc. WC) are just plain unrealistic. They aren't going to be seen in decent sparring because they are not much use in application. So traditional arts in application were never meant to look like a form. There's no point in trying to stick to the classical look of forms while sparring.

---Then why practice them? Why spend years refining movements that seldom if ever show up in sparring or in a real fight?

2. Having said that, there are a lot of different ways to apply simple techniques. Different styles will have different philosophies on techniques and strategies. To say that it is all kickboxing isn't saying much because there's a lot of different approaches to kickboxing. It's a fairly inclusive sport due to the rules (esp. Muay Thai which allows some clinching, elbowing and kneeing). A keen eye can pick that some kickboxers have a TKD style in their background for instance. Or that some have a kyokushin background. Or they've done a lot of boxing. Everyone doesn't look the same once you look deeper into what they are doing.

---Sorry. To clarify, that's not what I meant. When I say everything looks like a form of boxing or kickboxing I'm referring to the basic structure and power base. I realize there are distinct differences between Muay Thai and American kickboxing, between George Foreman and Muhammed Ali, etc. But they still use a common basic biomechanic. They still generate power in very similar ways and throw punches in very similar ways.

3. There's still a lot of ways to skin a cat even though it all looks similar. But if WC people aren't even looking at sparring as a useful training method or test of skills, then it's all a moot point. There are some MA tournaments that ARE useless due to the rules making it more a fun sport than a fight. Basing your training off succeeding in those sorts of sports makes you just as useless in a real fight as doing no sparring at all.

---That's true. Even if you are training to spar in competitions with specific rules and conditions, if you want to have a true martial art and not just a martial sport you have to be honest enough to make your training as realistic and as applicable as possible when in the training hall.

---As far as Ray's point about skill levels dictating what can be applied....this is very true as well. But are we training to fight a scrub, or to fight someone that would be a challenge? Do we train for the lowest common denominator, or for the fight of our lives?

----What Andrew says about gloves is also true. Like I said in the original post....you put big boxing gloves on people and everything looks like boxing! That may be part of the problem. That's why I prefer to use headgear and the light fingerless gloves popular in MMA circles. So one solution to this for those that spar would be to get rid of the boxing gloves. Years back when San Da started to become popular in China they were using headgear and light gloves. Back then you seemed to see more actual kung fu technique. Now it seems they have gone to the pattern in the west and are using boxing gloves instead. So now what they do looks more and more like boxing. Go figure!

Keith

[Ultimatewingchun]

"So rather than working so very hard to develop a certain system ....be it WCK or something else....and make it work in sparring/fighting, maybe it would be better to "reverse engineer" by taking natural reactions in sparring situations and build on them. I'm thinking of Mannie's Hakarac Boxing, and Victor's approach to things. Maybe they are onto something. Maybe the way to "evolve" is to take a boxing base or structure and meld it with WCK hands. Panantukan is "filipino boxing" that some say came about when Johnny LaCoste took his knowledge of traditional Kali hand techniques and melded it onto a boxing structure. Maybe what Victor and some others have been working toward is a "WCK boxing"....a modern-day spin off of traditional WCK. And this would seem more appropriate for those that like to put on the gear and really "mix it up." Am I rambling now? What do you guys think?" (KPM)


***WELL I THINK that you're onto something also, Keith. :) I look upon the possibility of using "signature" wing chun moves only in relation to the "delivery system" that applies within the world of today. Hence I advocate the use of boxing hands, a more mobile boxing-like/ JKD-like footwork, broken rhythm, feints, and combinations that include high percentage low kicking moves as a means of getting to the "place" where a lop da, pak da, etc. can work against a good mobile fighter.

[lawrenceofidaho]

1. A lot of the "signature moves" in traditional arts (inc. WC) are just plain unrealistic. They aren't going to be seen in decent sparring because they are not much use in application. So traditional arts in application were never meant to look like a form. There's no point in trying to stick to the classical look of forms while sparring.
Excellent points!


---Then why practice them? Why spend years refining movements that seldom if ever show up in sparring or in a real fight?
This is a key question that every martial artist should think about.......

After I am able to stay proficient at the "high percentage" (functional) techniques in Wing Chun, why should I spend the rest of my training time working on "low percentage" wing chun techniques (that are not unlikely to ever be used in fighting), when I could be working on the high percentage techniques of; Escrima, BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing, or Wrestling?

I want to make the most intelligent use of the time I have available for training, and this seems to be an important consideraton.

-Lawrence

p.s.- Great posts by everyone on this thread so far. :)

[Edmund]

Hi Keith



1. A lot of the "signature moves" in traditional arts (inc. WC) are just plain unrealistic. They aren't going to be seen in decent sparring because they are not much use in application. So traditional arts in application were never meant to look like a form. There's no point in trying to stick to the classical look of forms while sparring.

---Then why practice them? Why spend years refining movements that seldom if ever show up in sparring or in a real fight?


IMO, some are just for training. By doing them, you can become a better, fitter athlete. Some are just for very specific applications that seldom show up and it's only in the form to add something else to the choreography. Some are just antiquated.




---Sorry. To clarify, that's not what I meant. When I say everything looks like a form of boxing or kickboxing I'm referring to the basic structure and power base. I realize there are distinct differences between Muay Thai and American kickboxing, between George Foreman and Muhammed Ali, etc. But they still use a common basic biomechanic. They still generate power in very similar ways and throw punches in very similar ways.


I see. Well the similarities that they would share are because they are all human and there are only so many ways to generate power IN A FIGHT. Because they have to be fairly mobile and they have to strike, they stand the best way to do that. I still see a lot of variations.




---As far as Ray's point about skill levels dictating what can be applied....this is very true as well. But are we training to fight a scrub, or to fight someone that would be a challenge? Do we train for the lowest common denominator, or for the fight of our lives?


I think we should handle both scenarios with the same techniques but be less successful against the more skilled person. You COULD beat a complete scrub with a classical WC look and feel but it is not a great argument for practicing it that way. I could probably run backwards and out-sprint a toddler. So what?
There should still be some practical reasons for applying the art a particular way.




----What Andrew says about gloves is also true. Like I said in the original post....you put big boxing gloves on people and everything looks like boxing! That may be part of the problem. That's why I prefer to use headgear and the light fingerless gloves popular in MMA circles. So one solution to this for those that spar would be to get rid of the boxing gloves.


True that.

[lawrenceofidaho]

You COULD beat a complete scrub with a classical WC look and feel but it is not a great argument for practicing it that way. I could probably run backwards and out-sprint a toddler. So what?
LOL!! :D

[Fajing]

"I could probably run backwards and out-sprint a toddler. So what?"

Double LOL!!! That's some funny sh*t! :p

[AndrewS]

Most of what people think of as 'Wing Chun' is delusional choreography vaguely remembering a few fights several generations of teachers ago. This is probably the start of people's problems understanding why it 'doesn't look like they think it should'- 'cos how they think it should look has little relation to the real thing. Ray makes an excellent point when he mentioned that no one looks good when people are evenly matched- see the last few rounds of the Thrilla in Manilla to see two men who could have clowned nearly anyone on the planet the day before looking like rockem' sockem' robots, running on pure heart.

Contact sports enforce 'reality'- motion under unstable conditions. As most Wing Chun practice occurs under stable rather than unstable conditions, it looks quite different from athletic motion.

A corollary- practice of a skill under stable conditions will have little carryover to unstable conditions.

Some stuff from pro fighters which I think is 'good Wing Chun' and close to our ideas-

1). Belfort vs. Silva- shutting down the kick with the hands, going straight in, keeping the pressure up with linked continuous attack. Whatever you may say about chain punching, however you argue mechanics, this is an argument for exploding into a beatdown when the opportunity presents.

2). Rickson vs. anyone- watch his prefighting posture. He exerts pressure from a distance, moves only as much as he needs to, is extremely balanced.

3). Randy Couture vs. Belfort #1- shuts down fast hands by sticking and neutralizing, then tieing up and offbalancing to stay safe while administering a beating. This is how you're supposed to stick, as far as I can tell. Randy's epitomized shutting someone down efficiently.

4). Don Frye- forget which fight back in the day- first guy I saw folding to drop the elbow when his hands got tied up. Press in one place, hit with another. Saw a Louiseau fight where he was popping these nice standing.

There are other example- these are just some easy ones that pop up.

At range you gotta move. Generally speaking, uprooting structure isn't that mobile, so you're a bit up at range. Hence, you gotta drop your power in when the range gets broken, both to get power, and to set your base. At range you want to be able to move fluidly in any direction, hit with any weapon, and set up so you have base from any angle. People who can do this look a certain way- but their abilities aren't about the look.

In tight- neck strong, one unit hips to head, with some play. Elbows down, weight back. This is what's efficient in a clinch. It's pure classic Wing Chun. Have decent base. Reinforce base with adduction. Feel where the other guy is going- be somewhere else, someplace uncomfortable for him. Change if what you're trying doesn't work. There are three centers of motion- him, you, or the middle. Control center.

Always put pressure on the other guy- physically, mentally.

Lawrence- 'Low percentage techniques'- Other than tie sao and double punches, there's very little I'd call low percentage, going through the empty hand forms. Some things need to be looked at from a slightly different angle, but personally, I think nearly every piece of each form is amenable to practical application in live drilling, followed by integration into sparring. You would probably be shocked at some of the technical points that have some actual use. A few things are pretty much just developmental. Figure what they develop, and why.

Keith- Foreman and Ali develop power quite differently. Looking at boxing tape, you'll see numerous methods of power development, based on personal preference and body type. Frazier and Tyson move a certain way, Ali moved another, Dempsey another, Joe Louis another still. Marciano has little to do with Lennox Lewis.

Later,

Andrew

[sihing]

Good post..I agree with almost everything, except the weight back, but putting the pressure on the other guy and controlling the centers, good stuff..

[KPM]

Keith- Foreman and Ali develop power quite differently. Looking at boxing tape, you'll see numerous methods of power development, based on personal preference and body type. Frazier and Tyson move a certain way, Ali moved another, Dempsey another, Joe Louis another still. Marciano has little to do with Lennox Lewis.

Later,

Andrew


Good post Andrew! This last part though....again, as I tried to clarify before....I realize there are differences, but they still all come from a similar structure and power base. In your examples they are all still recognizable as boxers. If you saw Panantukan guys training you would say..."hey, they're boxing!" And then you might start recognizing some of the differences that come from their Filipino influence. Some JKD guys are essentially doing boxing with some WCK hands used in close. If you saw them training at first glance you would probably also say..."hey, they're boxing!" And then you might start to recognize some Pak Saus, Lop Saus, and trapping. But in neither case do they suddenly shift their biomechanic from boxing to classical Kali or classical WCK. They keep this general "boxing biomechanic" through-out. When I said I saw very little actual WCK in the sparring clips I've viewed, this is what I'm getting at......most look very much like a form of kickboxing (using a boxing biomechanic) with the occasional WCK hand technique inserted. They typically do not use the WCK biomechanic and structure that they spend so much time training in the forms and drills. So then why not train the forms and drills using this boxing biomechanic that seems to naturally want to show up in sparring/fighting? Again, just thinking out loud! ;)

Keith

[sihing]

Keith,

I can agree with you. When ever I watch some Martial Arts event, all the people competing from all the different styles look the same to me. You can have a Kempo guy vs a Northen Shaolin style and essentially they are all bouncing around and throughing out half a$$ed jabs. I've made this observation many times and have actually thought about the subject on occasion. We in our kwoon always have the WC structure within the sparring and drilling of our art. Regarding sparring we try not to have WC vs WC but have one of the participants kickbox or grapple vs WC. We have successfully in the past fought this way, and I did so myself when I was entering tournaments, even though when I was competing it was only in point tourney's as this was the only things around to fight in. Basically the fight went like this, we line up, they try a few flimsy back fists and side kicks and then we run them out of the ring....It became quite the joke and that is why I stopped competing in them. The point is that the WC structure, at least the one I've learned as this is the only structure I know, works when it is understood and practiced correctly.

James

[fa_jing]

"So then why not train the forms and drills using this boxing biomechanic that seems to naturally want to show up in sparring/fighting? Again, just thinking out loud!"

Well that's an excellent idea, I think you should do that some of the time, but on the other hand, alot of the time when you are practicing the traditional way you are trying to influence yourself to reduce certain tendencies "and wingchun-ify" your fighting. Let me start with a real extreme example, the low horse stance. You'll ideally and 99% of the time never fight that low, but if it trains you to sink, that's great. Because the tendency when sparring or fighting is to stand straight up with the knees locked. Yes I think sitting in a lower stance than you would actually fight in, can be useful because it trains you against your natural tendancy. When we practice Wing Chun short punches, are we trying to develop 1 or 4-inch punches? No, we're training so that our punches are shorter and crisper, with the elbows down somewhat, because the natural tendancy is to flare the elbows and use too much backswing. At the same time, I think Wing Chun can be overconfident and there needs to be a backup plan, like using head movement as well as one of the "saus." Boxing is also a good framework to understand your Wing Chun with as well, for instance the pak sao is a parry, thinking of the front and rear hands as throwing "1-2s" etc. You have even more of a framework to draw upon if you think of your Wing Chun in MMA terms, common names for your throws like scoop, hip toss etc.

BTW, AFAIK for whatever reason no-one has really used stomp kicks well with damaging effect in the UFC, though I've seen a few guys throw them.

I think of course that the longer you train the traditional way, the more you will see this coming out in your free-sparring. But you need to maintain a continuum of free-sparring so you aren't shocking yourself out of your good habits when you jump in.

heck, I always had trouble with just "hands up, elbows down, eyes wide open" when under fire. It takes time to get to where you're comfortable in the ring/whatever. One thing I was able to do for the most part is to utilize the basic wing chun steps, not all the ones you use in Chi sao and the wooden man but the basic marching steps, the half step and the exchange step, step left, step right and in some occasions the triangle step.

Oh yeah, I recommend to anyone, no matter their training philosophy, to come up with some Wing Chun drills ( trapping hand drills for example ) that end with punch or punches to a focus mitt held by your partner. This way you get used to hitting something.

[lawrenceofidaho]

Nice post, Fa Jing.

I want to get some shirts printed up that say; "Wing Chun-ify your fighting." :D

-Lawrence

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Good post Andrew! This last part though....again, as I tried to clarify before....I realize there are differences, but they still all come from a similar structure and power base. In your examples they are all still recognizable as boxers. If you saw Panantukan guys training you would say..."hey, they're boxing!" And then you might start recognizing some of the differences that come from their Filipino influence. Some JKD guys are essentially doing boxing with some WCK hands used in close. If you saw them training at first glance you would probably also say..."hey, they're boxing!" And then you might start to recognize some Pak Saus, Lop Saus, and trapping. But in neither case do they suddenly shift their biomechanic from boxing to classical Kali or classical WCK. They keep this general "boxing biomechanic" through-out. When I said I saw very little actual WCK in the sparring clips I've viewed, this is what I'm getting at......most look very much like a form of kickboxing (using a boxing biomechanic) with the occasional WCK hand technique inserted. They typically do not use the WCK biomechanic and structure that they spend so much time training in the forms and drills. So then why not train the forms and drills using this boxing biomechanic that seems to naturally want to show up in sparring/fighting? Again, just thinking out loud!" :rolleyes: (KPM)



******I THINK we have 2 different scenarios here. The boxing biomechanics and structure apply most readily at a certain distance; and the scenarios/fights/matches that AndrewS alluded to (Belfort, Couture, Silva, etc.) were good examples of sticking close to the opponent and going forward to pressure with a more "classical" wing chun base - WHEN the opportunity arises to do just that (ie.- go forward from contact/fold into elbow strikes when pressured/redirect or avoid his force when in a clinch, etc.)...and if you think about it...

what I just described is not conducive to boxing "rules" while fighting in the ring. So the elbows wouldn't be coming in the Ali/Frazier fight, for example. So what I'm saying is that SPACE dictates what you will actually use during any and all encounters...and when the ability to move about is there - then a more boxing/kickboxing/JKD delivery system will probably work best to bridge the gap (and just plain bridge) against a good fighter if your game is to try and get in very close for your striking (and whatever else you might try to do at very close quarters)...

Actually, AndrewS made this distinction when he wrote this:

"At range you gotta move. Generally speaking, uprooting structure isn't that mobile, so you're a bit up at range. Hence, you gotta drop your power in when the range gets broken, both to get power, and to set your base. At range you want to be able to move fluidly in any direction, hit with any weapon, and set up so you have base from any angle. People who can do this look a certain way- but their abilities aren't about the look."


***SO BOTH Keith and AndrewS are correct - since they are essentially talking about 2 different ranges. But if you look carefully at Keith's words that I quoted to start this post...the scenario he describes seem more like kickboxing matches than anything else because of the "rules" in play, ie.- if it were truly an NHB situation...then those same guys Keith mentioned WOULD "suddenly have to shift" their mechanics to a more solid (and therefore more wing chun like) base in order to fight efficiently once the gap has been bridged and the "space to move" has been eaten up or both fighters CHOSE to stay in close and pressure each other. At this point the only real "boxing" dynamics in play are the Marciano/Tyson/Frazier type of fight to a certain extent - along with whatever other short range weaponry one choses to use (ie. wing chun, Muay Thai elbows and knees, clinch to takedown and grapple, single or double leg shoots, etc.)

[Edmund]

When I said I saw very little actual WCK in the sparring clips I've viewed, this is what I'm getting at......most look very much like a form of kickboxing (using a boxing biomechanic) with the occasional WCK hand technique inserted. They typically do not use the WCK biomechanic and structure that they spend so much time training in the forms and drills. So then why not train the forms and drills using this boxing biomechanic that seems to naturally want to show up in sparring/fighting? Again, just thinking out loud! ;)


You should. I drill that way.

There's lots of different methods for biomechanics. WCK biomechanics has it's applicability in certain situations. I'm sure that people manage to get the job done without WC optimum biomechanics and structure so it's not a particularly big deal.

However, a lot of the time people do a kickboxing stance simply because that's the best way they figured out to use the most basic techniques they have been taught. Most WC people just do straight punches and kicks because that's the simplest techniques that they know. So they stand in a way that allows them to do that.

If we took a person and only taught them a very heavy sidekick, they'd be moving around with their body side-on.

[lawrenceofidaho]

Lawrence- 'Low percentage techniques'- Other than tie sao and double punches, there's very little I'd call low percentage, going through the empty hand forms. Some things need to be looked at from a slightly different angle, but personally, I think nearly every piece of each form is amenable to practical application in live drilling, followed by integration into sparring. You would probably be shocked at some of the technical points that have some actual use.
The term "low percentage" might actually have multiple (related) meanings:
1) Situations for use of the particular technique don't often come up.
2) When it's attempted, there is a low percentage chance of it succeeding.
3) Only a low percentage of practicioners have the attributes to make it work.

I know firsthand how being around Sifu Emin can make you believe that all things are possible (but to an extent, I think there is some truth to the maxim), -because when you ask him to show how some obscure technique is applied, he can pull it off in a pretty convincing way........ The thing is, how many of us have even a fraction of his; natural ability, training intensity, level of conditioning, or amounts of training time available? -By way of analogy, how much will the Average Joe at Gold's gym (or wherever) benefit from following the workout routines of the top 5 finishers at the Mr Olympia?

I'm 5' 9", 152lbs, 35 years old, not particularly gifted with athletic ability, and train between 6-7 hours per week. It is not realistic for me to believe I can make certain "low percentage" techniques work for me the way the best pro WC teachers can. -And even when they do use things like that, it is because they have their opponent so outmatched that they can; show off, play, experiment, etc.

I don't often have these luxuries, as the majority of my training partners at the gym are; bigger than me, about ten years younger, and are single (so they have more free evenings for training available to them). The way I stay competitive with those guys is by focusing on "high percentage" fundamentals. -Sometimes I'll play a bit and try more exotic stuff when we're sparring light, but if someone's being very aggressive, and I try those things, I generally end up getting clocked, or trying to escape a submission that I just opened myself up for.

I would be very interested to watch / buy the DVD of the EBMAS full contact tourney that went down in Europe recently. My guess is that even in the technician divisions, where the guys have a large repertoire of chi sau sections to choose from, there'll be a limited amount of "bread and butter" techniques being used effectively (Sections 1 & 3, and some elbow stuff from BT section1), and little (if anything) from the other sections (2,4,5,6,7,and BT 2-4). -If I saw those EBMAS fights and was wrong about my pre-conception, I am very willing to re-evaluate my position, and to try making some adjustments to my training to regularly include some of the other stuff that guys were able to make work in their matches.


A few things are pretty much just developmental. Figure what they develop, and why.
I know there is some truth to what you're saying, but every TMA has weird old-school stuff that they keep around for "developmental" reasons. The criteria I attempt to judge it on is by comparing it's usefullness to other things I could be doing (cross-training, modern sports conditioning drills, spending more time with WT basics, etc.)

The true cost of a thing is what you have to forego in order to get it. -I don't think that focusing on many of those little WT details will pay off as much for me as using that same time to work on BJJ basics (for example).

-Lawrence

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I know there is some truth to what you're saying, but every TMA has weird old-school stuff that they keep around for "developmental" reasons. The criteria I attempt to judge it on is by comparing it's usefullness to other things I could be doing (cross-training, modern sports conditioning drills, spending more time with WT basics, etc.)

The true cost of a thing is what you have to forego in order to get it. -I don't think that focusing on many of those little WT details will pay off as much for me as using that same time to work on BJJ basics (for example)." (lawrenceofidaho)



***AND I THINK the same applies to the "many little details" of every wing chun system, Lawrence, not just WT. There is a real issue of detail overload, imo, in the amount of material available today - and the amount of time most people have at their disposal to actually train their fighting skills. Some use that as a reason not to do ANY crosstraining, which I think is a dodge of the whole issue of what really works (and what one really needs to know) in preparation for a possible real life encounter - but for those who do want to punch, kick, and wrestle (grapple)...ie.- standup, clinch, ground...then your point is well taken:

Knowing from where to pick and choose, in terms of specific styles/strategies/techniques to focus on...becomes an art and a science in itself. And for this reason, I completely agree with you about sticking to the fundamentals and the most high percentage stuff - and drilling those things until you really have them "down" (ie.- in the muscle memory without having to think very much).

And after that - if you want to tinker around and add from here or there from time to time...then fine.

Most of the very best fighters, whether they were/are boxers, wrestlers, Thai boxers, BJJ fighters, karate, kickboxing, wing chun, etc...

are only going to use a certain "set" of moves and strategies over and over again - with perhaps an occasional surprise move or twist on an old theme put into the mix. (And even then - it probably won't be successful against a good fighter unless they've practiced that new move numerous times beforehand.)

[lawrenceofidaho]

Knowing from where to pick and choose, in terms of specific styles/strategies/techniques to focus on...becomes an art and a science in itself.
I've never thought of it in those terms before, but the longer I ponder it, the more it seems to fit.

:)

-Lawrence

[roza]

Hi guys ,
nice to see all WCH practicioners around the world are dealing with the same kinda problems. :)
Looks like x-boxing - well ,thats old story here too.
I agree with most of mentioned before ,as I think everyone could have his own angle of view - made by his goal ,priority ,skills etc.

I would add one fact ,that has much to do with this topic - one of the biggest problems ,as I could see it during the years ,is no ability or will to change the primary image,own idea.I hope you got what I mean - creating the opinion in the begining ,based on mix of missunderstandings ,dogmas for beginners ,watching MA films and influence of adverts ,this all is shaping our understandig first ,but -can ve be limited by the by the same after some time?It s a shame ,but a lot of us seems to be.And the reason?I do not think that studiing is pasive proces ,so I cannot say its taechers fault.As teacher can show the way ,tools ,exercises ,there is not so many guys ,who can take it ,use it the right way- because there is the need of change of understandig for higher level and its sometimes very hard to give up all ,we ve created hard ,puting piece by piece together - sometimes its hard to go even two or three steps back and realize ,that ,no matter how long the facial hair of our teacher is ,its still try/mistake method.
From this point of view ,one of the reasons of "looks like x-boxing" is ,that people does not undertand (and they do not want to )the difference between exercise and aplication.After several attempts to use in the action the same structure as during the exercise ,they are confused ,it does not work ,but they go on sparing anyhow ,as they feel its important to do sparing.Then they do not focus on maximal use of exercise ,which could bring them to point of improving all skills to the level ,when they could leave the basic structure.Training proces is parted here into two parts - sparing and making exercises ,and there is no understanding for simple principle :exercise must be done a thousand times ,with different ideas ,under different conditions to get as much as possible from it and than ,what you bring to sparing is not the exercise but the gained skills.Equiped with the skills it will look like WCH .
I hope it makes a sense.
Sorry for my broken english
Regards from Czech republic
Roza

[Ernie]

understanding that the source , is simply *YOU*
not styles and ranges those are just path ways [ insert x style here for long range and x style for mid/close range , and x + c for ground - [b] if there is a weapon [c] if multiple opponents etc,,, ]
these are extensions of *YOU* if people keep looking for this or that mix of styles there missing the point , there looking outside of themselves for the answers and will always be a little lost , looking for the next best thing
you need to look inwards
how is your speed , timing coordination , sensitivity , power, ability change etc,,,
how do you train it ! what are your weaknesses , how do you measure your progression ?

there are not 50 different punches , there is just you hitting something that is hitting you back , your body mechanics your balance , your ability to set up a physical frame work to maximize a position .

people love to gravitate to styles [security blankets ] this style does this , this style does that and so on . it's all smoke and mirrors , labels , pipe dreams , logos , secret hand shakes and marketing

chasing the rainbow only to find another rainbow just out of reach

sheep follow styles and worship there GMMMMMMM gods [ there to weak to walk on there own ]

take responsibility for yourself , use training methods from *styles* as a path to get to know who and what you are , honestly accept your weakness and grow from there instead of putting the blame/responsibility on this or that style/Sifu/coach

if you are training for a sport specific even then that is one thing there are parameters
but if your training for the big bad world , there is only one constant
*YOU*

once you place your focus on the one true source *YOU* then *YOU* can walk down any stylistic path and it will not define you , you will define *YOU*

I know i don't contribute much anymore but the convo between L and V got me thinking :D

[Ultimatewingchun]

Good to know you're still around, E


:p

..............


But now that you're here, I have something to say about something you wrote:

"if people keep looking for this or that mix of styles there missing the point , there looking outside of themselves for the answers and will always be a little lost , looking for the next best thing, you need to look inwards: how is your speed , timing coordination , sensitivity , power, ability change etc,,, how do you train it ! what are your weaknesses , how do you measure your progression ?" (Ernie)



***THESE ARE ATTRIBUTES you are describing for the most part. Part of the overall training method, imo, that goes hand-in-hand with the "art and science in itself" of knowing how and where to pick and choose, ie.- what styles/strategies/techniques to focus on. It's all of the above.

Since our training time is limited, we need to understand our own individual needs well enough so that we pick and choose the kinds of "things" to focus upon that will take us where we want to go. And this IS an individual "look-within-yourself" kind of thing, as you alluded to.

I for example, have decided to focus (ie.- pick and choose) from TWC, boxing, and catch wrestling in terms of what makes the most sense TO ME....and...FOR ME...along with certain attribute building regimens and conditioning programs...certain sparring schedules, wrestling formats, chi sao, etc.

Because my own inner voice, so to speak, tells me that this is the path for me. So in that sense, yes, it's from the "inside". But certain conditions "on the outside" of my own knowledge obviously play a role as well (ie.- I may use a backbridge as part of an escape route form being mounted, for example, because I've watched and studied the science behind why and how it works - so I "imitate" it until I've got it...AND THEN IT'S MINE...and if the day comes when I may choose to discard it or change into something else...my "improvization" was built upon a foundation that came from "outside" me (ie.- learning how to use a wrestler's bridge properly from experienced and skilled wrestlers).

The same with wing chun. I may have been taught (from the outside, ie.- William Cheung, Moy Yat) to do lop da this way or that way...but if I change some of that after x amount of years it's because something within me might now "see" something differently - based upon my own experience and observations...AFTER I learned the lop da concept in the first place.

[Liddel]

You know when i spar using gloves, usually 16 or 18oz i tend to make changes conciously or sub conciously to my actions due to the size and weight of the glove.
My style adapts.
When i spar with no gloves even if its NOT full contact im more VT orientated, and when using gloves an outsider may say, 'that looks like boxing/kickboxing'.

Space is a big thing for me, when i spar with gloves i dont have the same space to shoot gaps into my opponent as i do with a naked hand.
I cant recieve hold/press or follow up as easy with gloves as i can without.

When we step into a ring to fight in competition, the simple fact that we are wearing gloves and protective gear means we are bound by the rules of the competition and limited as to what we can and cannot do, thus making all styles LOOK similar.

If your style suits this situation great !
If not, which i have found personally with my VT, then you have to adapt it, train for that situation to be sucessful at it.
I personally think this is why most styles look 'similar' in the ring.

P.S Ernie LOVE your post, well said.

"if people keep looking for this or that mix of styles there missing the point , there looking outside of themselves for the answers and will always be a little lost , looking for the next best thing you need to look inwards"

All the styles that exist today have come about from people devising them in there own minds and using them to find what they will keep and what they will discard.
VT has made it possible for me to think for myself in a relm that i had no idea about before...Fighting. :)

[Ernie]

Vic , nice to be missed =)
sorry I have not really been around but coaching has really picked up so my energy is better spent there .

I used to think as you do bro , looking for that perfect blend
until I realized that attributes carry over , meaning once you focus on your own attribute development [ not just sport specific or technique or style ]
you get that cross pollination effect ,

like if you jump rope , run , spar , box what ever ,, your wing Chun footwork just gets better [ this is just a example ] sometime it's the other way the more you refine your wing Chun suddenly your boxing is better

why ? simple , anytime you cause the body to train coordination , balance , timing and so on it effects the whole , *YOU* get better
this opens a whole world of training possibilities inside and outside of combative specific training

I'm not talking about just conditioning , but isolating attributes

focusing on self instead of looking outside of self
understanding the source of all is *YOU*

good luck and best wishes bro !

good lookin LIddel :D

[whitefox]

Vic , nice to be missed =)
sorry I have not really been around but coaching has really picked up so my energy is better spent there .

I used to think as you do bro , looking for that perfect blend
until I realized that attributes carry over , meaning once you focus on your own attribute development [ not just sport specific or technique or style ]
you get that cross pollination effect ,

like if you jump rope , run , spar , box what ever ,, your wing Chun footwork just gets better [ this is just a example ] sometime it's the other way the more you refine your wing Chun suddenly your boxing is better

why ? simple , anytime you cause the body to train coordination , balance , timing and so on it effects the whole , *YOU* get better
this opens a whole world of training possibilities inside and outside of combative specific training

I'm not talking about just conditioning , but isolating attributes

focusing on self instead of looking outside of self
understanding the source of all is *YOU*



Great post you took the words right out of my mouth. :D

[AndrewS]

Lawrence,

I don't view the sections as things to be applied as written. They are strategies and ways of developing certain attributes, and I train them as such, rather than as gems of technical perfection to be done in silk pajamas to appropriate music.

Generally speaking, the reason sifu Emin can pull stuff off and other people can't, isn't just the skill differential- he's usually doing several things- using his basics to set stuff up, then some subtle things to make the app work. It's those subtle mechanics, which are the important things, and which are necessary to pulling things off. For instance- all bodylock defenses, he leads the other guy off their base (to neutralize the throw) while making space. Much of the 4th, 5th, and 6th sections necessitate on developing qualities of the bong sao which make it more useful in simple application, and which aren't obvious elsewhere.

Some ways I break the sections down-

1). body motion- essentially looking at the footwork, figuring out the why's and wherefores

2). body mechanics- much more important than hands and related to

3). Power generation

4). Application from precontact, neck tie, underhook, overhook.

The fullcontact DVDs will look ugly; I doubt we'll be seeing Biu Tze chi sao done picture perfect. I do think some attributes developed in the sections will be there if you look closely.

A few things to think about:
-2nd section- change of direction and quick feet in response to a 2 on 1 or arm drag. Also shoulder striking out of the clinch, something I do nearly every time I spar. Some nice comments on how Wing Chun does a 2 on 1- nothing I use much right now, though- would be decent way to set up a shot.
-4th,5th,6th sections- how to bump an arm by (aka bong sao), and drop a little weight in if they're reaching too much from various tie ups
-4th set, 7th set- jut dar- this is love. Making room to hit tight either from a neck tie you've weaseled out of or from inside control, or when you're sticking to a limb to shut down punches
-4th set - kwan - keep the elbows in- sets up the body motion counter to inside outside trips. Tan works like a nice neck control cross body- often wind up here
-5th set- lan vs. 2 on 1- works if you can turn the corner and press in. Also slick against a guy who likes to fight shelled up aka CM- feed a punch out, move in behind, drive up and hit under or turn and hook. High gan- don't use this much, seen it used to open a guy shelling up. Haven't worked it much, the app comes from someone who does a good bit of ring time. Spring bong to fak - neck control off an arm drag.
-6th set- chi gherk for this helped my low kicking a good bit. Interesting footwork it's primary point- the outside leg control is very useful, the retreat- how to get out of a leg split/ outside leg control
-7th set- dirty boxing gold. Combis- jut/punch, huen opening/palm, drop back and tok- some nice tricks in here, pretty much a toolbox, and one of the most useful sections, IMO.


As Victor mentioned, part of being a fighter is finding what works for you. The mass of details can provide some options there. My job as a student is to find that for myself; my job as a teacher is to find help others find that for themselves.

As to whether or not you need to practice something a bunch before pulling it off- personally, I've caught enough good people with things pulled directly out of my *ss, not to go for random crazy stuff when I feel it. Train to move, and things come out.


Andrew

[Ultimatewingchun]

Train to move and things come out. (Andrew)
Train the attributes and the whole YOU (and your fight game) gets better. (Ernie)

Can't argue with any of that. :)

But I don't see how that contradicts (or supercedes) the importance of picking and choosing carefully WHAT attributes...WHAT techniques...and WHAT strategies to spend your time on. It's doing ALL of the above that will make you a good fighter. :cool:

[Ernie]

Train like a hermit crab !

the ability to change shells [frame work /structure /engines ]

techniques / styles are just extensions of there shells , the require the setting up of the shell to fire off , the shell hold the seeds of balance , stability , unity ,,ETC,,
for the shell [ platform ] to be functional it has to have a healthy balance of attributes [speed , timing ,feeling, adjustability ,,,,,]
to much of anyone and the shell is struggling to compensate for it's own over commitment and thus your fighting yourself , not the other guy .


as you pass though ranges you morph through shells [ each individual style tends to favor it's specific shell , thus it's strength is it's weakness ]
the ability or attribute to flow from shell to shell with out ego or prejudice [change when you need to to don't be stubborn] is what one should focus on
at first the shells seem very different , this is a BJJ shell [top/bottom , cross , north/south ] this is a wing Chun shell [insert lineage here] this is a boxing shell, Thai shell , whatever ,,, some have round power some have short power and so on ,
but if you can free yourself from the styles banner , you will see there really not that different , they give you the best balance of attributes [most logical and stable platform ] for the particular moment and position you find yourself in .

once your free and see this , the mechanics of the shell just become extensions of the situation and *YOU*

but if we stay in the world of labels and techniques , we will always fall a little short , be a little stubborn , a little trapped

there is only one human body , one *YOU* , you should just use the most logical platform [based on you and your honest assessment of you skills ] for the position you find yourself in.

by studying the source and relating it to the individual , the termination techniques become secondary , it could be a punch/kick/choke or brick over the head .


lessons from a hermit crab , no mater what shell it might temporarily wear , it's essence /core is still the same old crab

[Ultimatewingchun]

I prefer to train and fight like a scorpion! :D :D :D

[Ernie]

I prefer to train and fight like a scorpion! :D :D :D
2 snaps and a thumbs up ! ;)

[Mr Punch]

Well said Liddel, and Ernie, this below is where I'm coming from these days... wouldn't use the word shell tho!... there's enough words for structure, engine, framework, system etc etc :D


as you pass though ranges you morph through shells [ each individual style tends to favor it's specific shell , thus it's strength is it's weakness ]
the ability or attribute to flow from shell to shell with out ego or prejudice [change when you need to to don't be stubborn] is what one should focus on
at first the shells seem very different , this is a BJJ shell [top/bottom , cross , north/south ] this is a wing Chun shell [insert lineage here] this is a boxing shell, Thai shell , whatever ,,, some have round power some have short power and so on ,
but if you can free yourself from the styles banner , you will see there really not that different , they give you the best balance of attributes [most logical and stable platform ] for the particular moment and position you find yourself in .

once your free and see this , the mechanics of the shell just become extensions of the situation and *YOU*Often I don't see biomechanics as being so different from one style to another... the biomechanics come with my body!!!

I know my left jab is hard, cos people tell me so all the time. And I know it's always in your face, and will put you on your ass if you don't get out of the way. I also know, it's the same mechanics as my chain punch, just not in a chain! Maybe sometimes its one from pin ma, sometimes from a boxing stance, sometimes from a muay thai stance, sometimes from a bik ma... but it's the same given a variety of 'environmental' variables.

[lawrenceofidaho]

gems of technical perfection to be done in silk pajamas to appropriate music.

LOL! :D


Some ways I break the sections down-
1). body motion- essentially looking at the footwork, figuring out the why's and wherefores
2). body mechanics- much more important than hands and related to
3). Power generation

This makes good sense......


4). Application from precontact, neck tie, underhook, overhook.
Okay, I don't know what you mean here....... Can you explain a bit more?


The fullcontact DVDs will look ugly;
Full contact fights are quite often ugly. (I don't expect them to be pretty like a demo.) The example you gave earlier, -the "Thrilla in Manila" had some ugliness, but it was still beautiful.......


I doubt we'll be seeing Biu Tze chi sao done picture perfect.
If I see them pulled off effectively in fighting, I will be studying to see how they were set up and executed. (Not looking for silk pajama stuff!! :) )


I do think some attributes developed in the sections will be there if you look closely.
My question is; -Can those same attributes be developed by; simpler, more combat-specific drills than by (somewhat elaborate) chi sau sections?


-5th set- lan vs. 2 on 1- works if you can turn the corner and press in. Also slick against a guy who likes to fight shelled up aka CM- feed a punch out, move in behind, drive up and hit under or turn and hook.
Agreed. This is one I have used successfully against a shelled boxing structure, but I think it's better to practice it as an isolated drill that begins outside of contact range rather than doing it in chi sau.


High gan- don't use this much, seen it used to open a guy shelling up. Haven't worked it much, the app comes from someone who does a good bit of ring time.
I've had better luck with this closing my hand into a fist. (I become an Escrimador with an imaginary pocket stick, and am performing a #1 strike.)


-6th set- how to get out of a leg split/ outside leg control
Whoa....... I never knew this was part of 6th sect.!! Sifu must have forgot to show me this!! Would you please PM me a brief description of the escape? (I have literally wondered about this for years.)


-7th set- dirty boxing gold. Combis- jut/punch, huen opening/palm, drop back and tok- some nice tricks in here, pretty much a toolbox, and one of the most useful sections, IMO.
I try to regularly work all three examples you described, but I don't train them from a "WT shell", -rather, from how I've seen GM Rene Latosa execute them with an Escrima mechanic. -I feel much more comfortable that way.......


As Victor mentioned, part of being a fighter is finding what works for you. The mass of details can provide some options there. My job as a student is to find that for myself; my job as a teacher is to find help others find that for themselves.
Makes sense...... I am just trying to find which of those options are most functional for me, and focus on those.


As to whether or not you need to practice something a bunch before pulling it off- personally, I've caught enough good people with things pulled directly out of my *ss, not to go for random crazy stuff when I feel it. Train to move, and things come out.
I see your point, but I know it's got to be easier if you are a bigger, stronger guy....... I have a couple of training partners that are my same size, and then about 20 that are bigger than me. I don't generally have as much room for error as someone who has greater strength and body mass does when they are improvising. (I feel like I've got to be quite a bit more careful.)

:(

-Lawrence

[AndrewS]

Hey Lawrence,


Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewS
4). Application from precontact, neck tie, underhook, overhook.


Okay, I don't know what you mean here....... Can you explain a bit more?

I look at every piece of what I work on from multiple perspectives. I try to see where the applications are on bridging (which is usually least fruitful, as the best bridge is a punch), in a thai clinch/neck tie, and in the greco clinch (though my take on the thai clinch is more seeking a single neck tie and an underhook these days, rather than going for a plum, hence the breakup into specific control points). I also play with the timing of each act- pre-emptive, on the start of the other person's motion, in the middle of their motion, or on the end of it.


My question is; -Can those same attributes be developed by; simpler, more combat-specific drills than by (somewhat elaborate) chi sau sections?

Yes and no. In some places the hand substitutes for the head or body, and does a good job 'cos it moves a lot faster than most people can move the head or body. I use the sections as reference material. I train the full sections through sometimes, but generally what I do (when I'm focusing on the sections) is break a piece out, rep it 20x or so, do some light isolation drilling with it, ramp up the isolation drilling intensity and make it less isolated, then go free and try to pull it off.

I do think that there's a sense of continous flow developed in chi sao which is difficult to develop elsewhere.

For other stuff, I don't think anything 'combat specific' will be of greater use in developing certain attributes, compared with, say, medicine ball work, agility drills, or strongman training.

I think what you'll find is that as you break things down into 'simpler more combat specific drills' you'll generate a h*ll of a lot of material out of simple abstractions.

Looking at say the straight standing armlock defense from 2nd section- you have the catch position for the clean or snatch, change of direction drills for agility training, a kinda obnoxious baji-esque shoulder strike, a plyo off the ground to crash in with the tan off the dummy, teaching yourself to deadarm while moving fast and hard, and keeping the shoulder down. You could milk each one of these and get some decent attribute development off of each of them.


Agreed. This is one I have used successfully against a shelled boxing structure, but I think it's better to practice it as an isolated drill that begins outside of contact range rather than doing it in chi sau.

I do both, and several more variations. I make stuff up and play with it too, run it by people I respect if it seems worth a ****, keep it if it starts to fly live. Why limit myself? Again chi sao is an abstract- perhaps musical notation would be a good analogy. It sits there on the page, you can run it through a program, or you can play it. What's on the page isn't the music.


Originally Posted by AndrewS
-6th set- how to get out of a leg split/ outside leg control


Whoa....... I never knew this was part of 6th sect.!! Sifu must have forgot to show me this!! Would you please PM me a brief description of the escape? (I have literally wondered about this for years.)

Hmm, this may be a new thing, but this is the only way I learned it- there may have been a change, dunno. On the fak cycle before shoulder bong, incoming fak drives in, lead arm and leg same, leg coming from the outside to crash with the fak as an outside leg split. You circle the leg back along a huen bo circle, just like the retreat from an advancing step, and you're out of an outside leg split, and in position for your own which comes with your return fak in the fak cycle. For an inside leg split- counter with an outside leg split, same as you would with the fak.

E-mail me if you need more detail, the PM thing on this board doesn't have enough bandwidth.


I try to regularly work all three examples you described, but I don't train them from a "WT shell", -rather, from how I've seen GM Rene Latosa execute them with an Escrima mechanic. -I feel much more comfortable that way.......

There is no WT mechanic or escrima mechanic, just motion. Up, down, twist in, twist out, add shoulder, add chest, add waist, add hips, add weight, bounce, plyometric effect. Just mechanics, unified by intent.


I see your point, but I know it's got to be easier if you are a bigger, stronger guy....... I have a couple of training partners that are my same size, and then about 20 that are bigger than me. I don't generally have as much room for error as someone who has greater strength and body mass does when they are improvising. (I feel like I've got to be quite a bit more careful.)

Don't cry to me- you light and middleweights get better relative strength than us heavies and superheavies, and you learn what does and doesn't work much quicker, and no one will *ever* believe anything I do is successful for any reason besides size and strength.

Joking aside- mellow your training partners out and make them let you play around without fear of injury or ego damage, then teach them to turn the gain up slowly. That seems the key to figuring this stuff out without too many bad injuries.

Andrew

[Ultimatewingchun]

Nice back and forth posts, AndrewS and Lawrence...this is turning into one of the better threads we've had around here in some while. :rolleyes:

[lawrenceofidaho]

Hey Lawrence,
in a thai clinch/neck tie, and in the greco clinch (though my take on the thai clinch is more seeking a single neck tie and an underhook these days, rather than going for a plum,
I feel tons safer there too, -even against a big guy.


In some places the hand substitutes for the head or body, and does a good job 'cos it moves a lot faster than most people can move the head or body.
But doesn't this break down, because how can the hand substitute for the head?

You don't "stick" to the head like you would in chi-sau, except sometimes in grappling.


I use the sections as reference material. I train the full sections through sometimes, but generally what I do (when I'm focusing on the sections) is break a piece out, rep it 20x or so, do some light isolation drilling with it, ramp up the isolation drilling intensity and make it less isolated, then go free and try to pull it off.
I mostly "isolation" train chi-sau like this too....... I remember Victor remarking once on a posted clip of a couple of WT "masters" 'flowing' through some various sections, and commenting that it was "not much more than a dance". -I totally agree with his assessment, and rarely practice that way, except as a sort of occasional supplement to "forms training".


I do think that there's a sense of continous flow developed in chi sao which is difficult to develop elsewhere.
IMO, even heavybag workouts and shadowboxing can help to develop excellent flow if that is something you are specifically focusing on when you ebgage them.


For other stuff, I don't think anything 'combat specific' will be of greater use in developing certain attributes, compared with, say, medicine ball work, agility drills, or strongman training.
Good point.......


I think what you'll find is that as you break things down into 'simpler more combat specific drills' you'll generate a h*ll of a lot of material out of simple abstractions.
Whether in chi sau, or any other drill, when you train "alive", I think there will be a lot of creative things that come up.

-Lawrence

[Ultimatewingchun]

For some it might be a crab shell, morphing into various twists and turns in this or that range (now it's a punch, later a kick, or a bite, or a headbutt, or a choke or an elbow)...but make sure that it's always YOU...at the end of the day. Always just make it your own...cause you're the hermit doin' your individual thing...don't need labels and names...just be YOU...and develop your attributes because that's what's gonna put you over the top at the end of the day - that's what will set you apart from the crowd...a punch is not just a punch if YOUR punch has that extra snap, crackle, and crispy jolt...and pull whatever you got out of your hat as circumstances require.

THIS IS FINE! THIS IS ALL GOOD!

But to me it's more like a special FUEL that we put into our vehicle. We put 3 parts of that...and 2 parts of this...1 part of something else...and whatever else...and for some those parts might consist of x amount of WSL's wing chun via Gary Lam...and x amount of savate...and x amount of JKD...and God knows whatever else good stuff has been thrown in...

and for this guy it might be x amount of WT/ EBMAS...x amount of BJJ...and whatever else...

and for a third guy it might x catch, x TWC, x boxing...

and for a fourth it might be x TWC, x BJJ, x boxing...

and for a fifth it's x ving tsun and x boxing...

and on and on.

The labels are a dual-edged sword. On the one hand they serve a purpose as a reference point to work with and as a means to communicate to others where you got what you got....FOR THE FUEL MIX IN YOUR ENGINE...

That's the HIGH END of the spectrum. That's the PREMIUM gasoline.

At the low end - the labels and names tend to separate people and create the opportunity for mischief and strife.

What to do?

My answer: don't sweat it.

Because as long as it's the final mixture of fuel that counts in your mind - and the final result equals MORE than the sum total of it's parts...so that the labels just eventually peel away (as you peel out!) and the engine runs smooth and hard and fast and powerful and mobile, and explosive, and this baby doesn't break down very often because of the strength of the steel and the endurance of the shocks, and the transmission changes gears on a dime whenever you need to make quick changes of speed or direction, or to manuever into tight spaces or to just zoom down the open highway when the coast is clear with some long range destination just ahead...

Then you've got a kick a55 machine.

Call it a Buick. Call it a Bima. Call it a Cadillac. Call it a Hummer. Call it whatever you want - if that's what helps you understand it's parts and what it can do, and from whence it came - and if that's what helps me understand something about what you're driving.

THAT'S FINE TOO.

Because I know that in the end - it's your car. Because it's YOU that's driving it.

[AndrewS]

Vic,

dead on. Or to quote Royce- 'Your belt covers three inches of your *ss, the rest is up to you'.

Lawrence,


But doesn't this break down, because how can the hand substitute for the head?

The same way the stick substitues for the leg or the hand, the leg or the hand for a stick- it's all a #1. . . You're just pressing towards something pressing towards you, moving away from you, or moving around you, trying to shut it down. Even when you touch the hand, you press the body, for that matter.


You don't "stick" to the head like you would in chi-sau, except sometimes in grappling.

Er, I do, and I do so a lot in standing grappling. A neck tie=fook and fook derivatives. Inside control is pretty much chi sao direct, just not poon sao (like huen chi sao or mainland platforms). Single underhooks are pressure with the body and trying to disconnect shoulder and body. Overhook- you can make some technical arguments, but there's no direct analogy- I don't understand overhooks well at all.


IMO, even heavybag workouts and shadowboxing can help to develop excellent flow if that is something you are specifically focusing on when you ebgage them.

Not as well as working with someone else on that specifically. Slo-Flo?

I had an interesting visit from a couple of friends who do Wing Chun and Xing Yi this weekend. We compared notes and drills, and I'm now, more than ever, convinced that there are some body mechanics and skills which are best developed through specialized partner drills, done as cycles to build the mechanic, drilled live in isolation to make said mechanic work against resistance, then worked in free play.

Andrew

[fa_jing]

some great posts here. Your "style" isn't going to go out and do the fighting for you. YOU have to do it. Your "style" is only as good as YOU can make it effective. And in order to make it effective, you can't be close-minded and dogmatic.

[lawrenceofidaho]

some great posts here. Your "style" isn't going to go out and do the fighting for you. YOU have to do it. Your "style" is only as good as YOU can make it effective. And in order to make it effective, you can't be close-minded and dogmatic.
If someone's already "drank the Kool-Aid", it may be too late for them, and there's probably not a whole lot that anyone can do to talk them down from the ledge they're teetering on.

Although it's (sadly) the thing that could help them the most to grow as a martial artist and a person, -these folks generally shield themselves from such experiences which might potentially contradict their current beliefs.

If you're a naturally helpful person, you're probably inclined to be sharing with your hard earned experiential lessons, but there are just some people who appear not particularly interested in reality, and it seems there's really not much you can do to be helpful to someone who prefers to live in a sheltered fantasy like that.

:(

That said, I just want to say thanks to all the guys (and gals!), who are not here to push some agenda / lineage / marketing nonsense, and are simply being generous by sharing the knowledge and insight they have earned firsthand from their training experiences.

The things I have learned from trying out ideas suggested by kind folks here on this forum have definitely taken my training to a higher level during the past 18 months since I joined!

:)

Thanks again.

-Lawrence

[lawrenceofidaho]

It seems that sometimes we can initially see a person as an antagonist (as I used to see Knifefighter, about 18 months ago) and then ended up (eventually) seeing this same person as a rather serious influence in the way that I train........ So long as you are honest and truly using performance as your guide (and not some other BS measurement).

When I first started coming here, I used to get "p1ssed off" at Dale's "anti wing chun" comments, and wished he'd shut up..... but later I started to tentatively try out his advice, and OMG, he was right about a lot of stuff!!!!

:eek:

(I guess that's something that actual fighting experience does for you!) :p

Dale, thanks for all your time spent here. -I think you are helping to make us all better WC (and martial arts) practicioners.

:)

-Lawrence

[stricker]

again great info andrew s.


I look at every piece of what I work on from multiple perspectives. I try to see where the applications are on bridging (which is usually least fruitful, as the best bridge is a punch), in a thai clinch/neck tie, and in the greco clinch (though my take on the thai clinch is more seeking a single neck tie and an underhook these days, rather than going for a plum, hence the breakup into specific control points). I also play with the timing of each act- pre-emptive, on the start of the other person's motion, in the middle of their motion, or on the end of it.awesome. i HAVE to get out to l.a.

[BRIAN]

to reply why most MA don't fight the way they practice comes down typically to a simple answer. Most people don't train above their adrenaline thresholds. Thus, they never experience how to react when under the extreme stress, and pressures present when in a real situation. That's why special forces and navy seals and so forth become so good at hand to hand combat. They train with the threshold overload arena. It is a scientific fact that when your heart rate reaches an extremly high rate your body undrer goes physical and phycological changes. Your normal (relaxed mind) typically will not remember how to react in an appropriate time frame.