I used BJJ in a multiple attacker confrontation this weekend

[SevenStar]

This weekend on the job, we had several altercations break out - all of them except one involved multiple opponents. I guess there was just something in the water they were drinking this weekend...

Anyway, this particular altercation involved a guy reacing under a waitresses skirt and grabbing her. One of the club managers saw him, removed his hand and warned him not to do it again. The man took issue to this and swung at the manager. Myself and two other guys subdued him so we could escort him outside - then hell broke loose. Turned out that the guy was in town for a family reunion and that several of his family members were there as well, and weren't too happy about us tying him up. The three of us handled four people and managed to take them all down stairs and throw them out. Once on the street, they got rowdr again, and a few more of the family members from inside came running out (one of them was a female)

One guy in particular was pretty big and they were having troble keeping him still, so I swept his laeg from under him and he fell to the ground. We all followed him down, and he started flailing his arms while attempting to stand. I snatched one of his arms and applied a kimura - I didn't want to snap it, but I wanted him to comply - which he didn't. I warned him by saying "Listen, if you don't calm down, I'm gonna break your focking arm" I felt some hits during the time, but none of them were painful at all - I'm guessing they were just glancing or accidental hits from the guys other guards were fighting. Next thing I know, I get blindsided and knocked off of him, so I reach for my flashlight / stun gun (which I actually should've brought out earlier) and noticed that the guy who hit me was a cop. I said "wtf - I work here!" and spectators yelled that I was an employee. He cuffed the roughneck and later apologized for knocking me off of him.

After I got up, I saw another of our guys - a wrestler - with a man back mounted and under control. Ordinarily, I don't post about things that go on there, but since we often have the grappling vs multiple attacker debates, I figured it would be good here. That said, I feel the same way I have always felt - If you have to take him down, then by all means do so. Just be sure you know how to escape properly so that you can get back to your feet quickly. Also, the possibility to get hit by someone unseen is definitely there, so you have to be aware af everyone around you. being on the ground on the street or in a club doesn't always equate to you being shredded by broken glass, however, rolling on the concrete isn't comfortable. I didn't feel the scrapes I'd gotten until after the confrontation though, so I'm not even sure that "you can get torn up by the concrete" argument is even a legit factor.

[David Jamieson]

20 more events like that and you'll realize it was all untrue and that it was all true...at the same time! :D

good for you on the being mister nice guy thing. How did you find out they were there for a family reunion, were you chatting up the femme afterwards? :p

[fa_jing]

Curious, what is the law governing that type of work for you, especially since the action re-occured out on the street?

[PlumDragon]

Wow, sounds intense. Good story.
I hope I never have to do anything like that, but admire the clout you have for voluntarily putting yourself on the line.

[sihing]

Yeah, I guess as a bouncer you are definetly limited in what you want to do with patrons being thrown out of your establishment. I worked years of security and it was always on my mind also, although I was lucky enough to not have to use the stuff often. My own personal philosophy about fighting is to always taken them down, just that when I get them there I don't prefer to grapple with them but to continue the attack (mostly striking) while they are more immobile while on the ground. Good points though about being aware of you surroundings and such, as this is always the case with multiple opponents or friends coming out of nowhere. That's why in bars and social gatherings I really avoid the fight, unless there is no choice. You never know what weapons they have hidden or access too, and where the friends are. A girlfriend of mine went out awhile back with her friend and her husband (who's in the military). While out someone said something to the husbands wife and when they got outside he got rushed by 4 of them, luckly he didn't sustain any serious injuries, just bruises and bumps. Eventually the bouncers broke it up, luckly for him...

James

[SevenStar]

20 more events like that and you'll realize it was all untrue and that it was all true...at the same time! :D

good for you on the being mister nice guy thing. How did you find out they were there for a family reunion, were you chatting up the femme afterwards? :p


I talked to them beforehand - before the guy decided to reach his hand up the girl's skirt. Plus, they wore those cheesy family reunion tees that people get for such events.

[Fu-Pow]

Actually, what you posted pretty much confirms everything thats ever been said about BJJ in multiple attacker situations.

Also, it wasn't a one person vs. multiple attacker situation. It was a 3 on 4 situation.

You were blindsided by the cop. If your fellow bouncers hadn't of been there you would have been blindsided by one of the family members. And then what silly?

[SevenStar]

Curious, what is the law governing that type of work for you, especially since the action re-occured out on the street?


We are technically not allowed to strike anyone. However, if we were justified in doing so, it's usually cool. A lot of cops are regulars there and they will back us up if what we did was definitely warranted.

we can use pepper spray, but not inside, for obvious reasons. If we sprayed it and customers walked into a lingering cloud of it, we'd likely be sued.


stun guns - I'm not sure of the legal implication of these. I know that some of the managers say don't use them and others say if that's what it takes, then go for it.

What happened on the street was provoked by them, so legally we were cool there as well. It happened right outside of the doors, which may still be considered club property anyway though - I'm not sure.

[SevenStar]

Actually, what you posted pretty much confirms everything thats ever been said about BJJ in multiple attacker situations.

Also, it wasn't a one person vs. multiple attacker situation. It was a 3 on 4 situation.

You were blindsided by the cop. If your fellow bouncers hadn't of been there you would have been blindsided by one of the family members. And then what silly?


then I don't stay on the ground, silly - I get back up. being that we are not supposed to strike, that was the easiest way to subdue and restrain him. Also, as mentioned I had my stun gun on me.

[Mr Punch]

You sweep him, you get back up quicker, but he still gets up and is mighty p!ssed. Then he and his family know you got moves and go even more to town on trying to hospitalise you...?

... would seem like a fairly likely scenario.

I mean, I'm not dissing it but there must have been a point where you thought, 'Rightio, I'll sweep his legs out.' At which point the fact that you had two buddies out there must have influenced your decision.

I'm with you with the concrete. Tarmac, when it's old and has those little angular stones on the top of it, is far more painful and the stones grind and digs into your knees.

[rogue]

Good job 7*! Glad you didn't get hurt. :)


Street cred +0.5 :D

[PangQuan]

"Listen, if you don't calm down, I'm gonna break your focking arm"

+ 7 street cred

[Mr Punch]

Good job 7*! Glad you didn't get hurt. :)


Street cred +0.5 :DOh yeah, course, that's first!

[IronFist]

Nice job, Seven.

[FatherDog]

You sweep him, you get back up quicker, but he still gets up and is mighty p!ssed. Then he and his family know you got moves and go even more to town on trying to hospitalise you...?

... would seem like a fairly likely scenario.

You sweep him, you get back up quicker, and you kick him repeatedly in the face while he tries to get up is another, even more likely scenario.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i wish seven would use his grappling on me sometimes. :(

[TenTigers]

That's all well and good, but you seem to miss the entire point of the phrase-grappling vs multiple opponents. It doesn't mean multiple grapplers fighting multiple opponents, it means one grappler vs multiple opponents, so your point is moot.
That being said, I am glad yo were able to handle it, and also glad that you didn't end up decking the cop-well, let me rephrase that-glad you didn't end up decking the cop and then getting busted, or busted up by the cops.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

im not sure that he was out to win that argument so much as share his experience since it's related. also he didn't guess what might happen since it really did happen. that kinda carries weight even if it's not a perfect example.

i still want him to grapple me though. rrrrrowww.

[Helena Handbask]

My brother worked as a bouncer and the fact that you swept his leg (which is considered a strike) I'm amazed you weren't charged.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Seven Star,

All said and done it sounds like you handled yourself with aplomb! You reflected afterwards to learn from the experience. You shared your experience for the benefit of all!

Good Job!!!

My only suggestion and perhaps it was done and just not mentioned is the following:

I am speaking in pragmatic terms here, that is getting the job done in the most efficacious manner.

The manager should not have put his hand on the patron! I know the patron’s behavior was inexcusable! However, if the purpose is to stop the behavior with a minimum of fuss and to avoid escalation, then social skills frequently will get the job done much more easily, even with a drunk. I understand there are times when this too is impossible. I would say a stern, but polite, warning may have obviated the reduction to violence! I just think it is worth trying before physical intervention is attempted! Then no one risks injury or lawsuit!

[Mr Punch]

You sweep him, you get back up quicker, and you kick him repeatedly in the face while he tries to get up is another, even more likely scenario. :rolleyes:

Not so likely really. We're talking about BJJ in a multiple and I hasten to add real-life scenario. The hypothesis Fu-pow and Seven were talking about was what would have happened if there had been no back-up for Seven. He's already mentioned that as a bouncer he's not supposed to strike them, so do you think kicking a downed man in the face really counts as not striking them? :eek: :D

And it still doesn't alter the supposition that his loving family are not going to be hanging about watching.

It was an interesting situation, and of course we're all happy Seven is unscathed, plus the fact that he used BJJ with some success is a good point for BJJ in a multiple situation (though he was still blindsided - even if by some cop!). The extension of this idea is that BJJ would be useful in this kind of situation in one vs many. Of course, if you sweep someone and get up quicker than them you are using a positional advantage from BJJ, but it still fails to convince me that it's any more useful than say a standing armlock (which I've had occasion to use bouncing in a multiple situation without any possibility of what I was doing constituting a strike and being able to maintain a positional advantage to prevent his friends from coming in and blindsiding me).

Just a couple of thoughts.

[Scott R. Brown]

I suppose if we really wanted to get technical we can say it says more about SevenStar's skill and nothing much about BJJ. Nothing he performed is outside the skills or techniques of many other arts!!

[Oso]

good work.

sounds like a couple of scenario's when I was bouncing.

generally, the sidewalk and/or parking lot is generally considered part of the establishment...at least in NC.

we would take people out of the building and give them the opportunity to leave the parking lot on their own but if they hung around and caused more trouble out there then we would escort them to the street.

as far as the manager touching/grabbing the guy's hand when he was physically touching the waitress: yes, he was legit in doing so. technically the patron had assaulted the waitress, probably battery as well, and since he was STILL doing it the waitress, the manager or Seven were well within their rights to physically stop him from that assault.


where's Judge Pen when you need him?

[7th gen yang]

It wasn't A mutiple attack but was funny :D

I was bouncing in a Night club one night with my teacher, We were always the guys that blended into the crowd, so people only knew who we were if they dance there often
(there was deffinitly a problem when people don't Know who you are) as the following incedent happened;

my teacher and I were dancing on three tiers in the club,(yes Dance ) the tiers surrounded the DJ's booth my teacher was on the third tier, dancing with a girl, I was on the second tier, and dancing with two girls , anyhoo this gave us the birds eye view of both upstairs and club level

while dancing I caught out of the corner of my eye a girl running through the crowd I turned to look and she did a flying double front kick to the chest of this girl dancing in front of the Tier I was standing on, she fell straight down on her back, the other girl was kicked from in front of my tier, flew back, knocked a girl down and hit the wall about 15 feet away

I snaked down under the rail and dropped to the floor, the girl had picked herself up, and started toward the girl she kicked, I grabbed her, put her in an armlock behind her back, as I locked her I looked to the right and, there is another fight breaking out! :eek: I noticed a guy had a beer in his hand and the way he gripped it was an Indication that he was going to use it , I saw his target was another bouncer had his back to this guy as he was taking control of some guy I yelled watch your back he spun around fast enough to get nailed in the head cutting the bouncer with a bottle

(must of been a full moon that night)

and I then realize the girl that got kick is now running at the girl im holding, coming from the left side (with Intention to punch) I caught a glimpse of my teacher jumping down from His teir,which meant that someone was comming at me from behind, so I glanced behind me with my left eye and now had the girls boyfriend that Im holding coming in to get me and (With intention to punch my head from behind :eek: )

with the timing of both people charging me at the same time I spun to the right holding the girl, the spin was not as fast as I thought, but wasn't fast enough that contact was made to the girls face I was holding, but took the power out of it as I spun, the guy that was going to hit me hits the girl that was coming at me right in the eye knocking her to the ground :D lmao , my teacher then grabbed both the girl and the boyfriend (as she jumped up to try and punch the guy that just hit her) locking both at the same time!

the guy that broke the bottle over the bouncers head went to jail that night and I found out that the girl that got the double kick was screwing the boyfriend of the other girl.

Later I asked my teacher why he didn't stop the guy from behind me,
he said " I saw you had it under control" :mad :D

Take in mind that all this happened in a matter of seconds!

Just an experience! :)

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

I snatched one of his arms and applied a kimura - I didn't want to snap it, but I wanted him to comply - which he didn't. I warned him by saying "Listen, if you don't calm down, I'm gonna break your focking arm".

you should've leaned a bit more into it so that he would have some soreness to remember you by.

5 points street credit.

perhaps if you had done something to his dirty finger, too....

there's an application from ytcc on flaming chicken walk where the opponent's upper arm is used to pull the joint after the lock is made. it can bruise the joint in the humerous. :cool:

[Fu-Pow]

That's all well and good, but you seem to miss the entire point of the phrase-grappling vs multiple opponents. It doesn't mean multiple grapplers fighting multiple opponents, it means one grappler vs multiple opponents, so your point is moot.
.

Exactly.

If it had been Seven Star vs. the "family" he would have been in some serious trouble trying to go to the ground with BJJ. The cop that blindsided him would have been one of the family instead and the rest of the "fam" would have pummeled him while he tried to arm bar the guy he was tangling with on the ground.

Hence, the argument that this proves something about BJJ being effective against multiple opponents is ridiculous.

Going to "the ground" is not a good option when in a multiple attacker situation. Better to stay on your feet.

IMNSHO, the thing that he did that would have been good strategy in a MOS was to sweep the guy. Using the ground as a weapon is very effective, especially if you can make the guy land on his head. The ground is also much harder than a hand or a foot.

But sweeps aren't anything specific to BJJ but just about every martial arts style has sweeps.

[SevenStar]

Pretty much what GDA said above. It's nothing more than a related incident, not an intention to settle the argument one way or the other. considering the number of them, if it was seven vs the family, and I was striking or standing grappling, I still woulda been in trouble.

However, I really didn't have to "try" to armlock the guy. Since he wasn't a grappler, he didn't think to fight it - I just snatched his arm. I could've easily broken it quickly and went to get back up.

[PangQuan]

so then u want to grapple with GDA? is that what yer tellin' us?

[SevenStar]

I'll grapple GDA. But if I submit him, I get to grapple with his woman AND her sister.

[PangQuan]

lmao

+ 7 street cred

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Oso,

I think you missed my point! It was not whether it was “legal” to grab the patron in the first place, but whether it was pragmatic! If talking gets the job done without anyone getting hurt, then it is best! Any physical altercation runs many risks. Not only for the safety of the bouncers, but anyone else who chooses to get involved. The question then becomes: what is the safest, easiest and most effective way to resolve a situation, not what can be legal or ethically accomplished!

The idea is to motivate proper behavior without damaging precious egos. It is saving face in front of others and excessive need to prove oneself that motivates many of these altercations along with impaired judgment due to the alcohol consumption.

There are various levels of intervention available. I have not bounced in a bar, but I have managed 50 inmate workers in a dining hall, 100 inmates in a housing unit and 1,800 inmates on an exercise yard! I have had to redirect the aggressive energy of a 100 inmates who were outraged by the officer on the shift prior to mine and I have negotiated between inmates ready to fight!

I don’t want to get into second guessing this situation too much because I was not there. But I here are a few suggestions that may help in the future.

Walk up to the patron in a good natured manner and nicely ask him to stop touching the waitress. If he complies, no problem! If he gets mean, hostile or tries to show off to his friends then you divert his aggressive energy by remaining amiable and try a bargaining tactic. “I’ll tell you what sir, I’ll be happy to buy you and your friends another round of beer if you would please leave my waitresses alone!” If he agrees fine again! If he continues to be foolish explain to him the consequences of non-compliance. “Sir, I am trying to be reasonable here. I am sure that you understand the difference between right and wrong. You must understand that touching the waitresses is not allowed. If you continue you will be asked to leave the bar!” This takes some skill and experience because the patron is likely to try many different types of argument and the point is to try not to offend his precious ego. I understand this appears unreasonable, but the idea is to avoid a physical altercation and a scene that turns into a bar fight! At the very least it buys time for backup to be assembled to throw the patron out! This is a tiered approach. The patron’s behavior at each level determines where the conversation will go. If the bouncer’s ego gets involved the chance for success becomes reduced. The bouncer must not have the need to prove his authority and be free of ego to be successful!

This is just a general scenario and whether it works or not depends upon many factors. Bouncers can at any time 86 the patron, so there is no need to start a situation in an instant unless there is violence already involved. By talking to the patron one establishes a rapport. If one is willing to take his time, be patient and friendly then the rapport may be cultivated to the point where the patron and the bouncer have established a friendly understanding. Except when excessively intoxicated, most people will tend to not want to break an established rapport. The patron becomes more easily managed due to the friendly relationship established. If this rapport is maintained over time the bouncer may now use the patron to help contain the excessive behavior of the patrons drinking buddies. This assists the bouncers because many times a friend is able to contain the excessive behavior of another friend more easily than an authority figure. If it is not possible to build a rapport with the offending patron than attempt to establish a rapport with a less intoxicated or more reasonable friend of the offending patron! Then use this patron to control the offending patron!

Another psychological tactic is the reference to a “disembodied authority”. Many times men have issues with authority figures. Just the thought of submitting to authority will cause them to become belligerent or hostile. They see it as a direct challenge to their manhood! In cases like this it helps to reduce the person’s perceived threat. This is accomplished by changing how he perceives you. In this circumstance you are not an authority figure, but become a “poor smuck” (like him!!) who is just trying to do his job! You imply that it is your boss who wants him to behave, not you! You are just the poor guy who has to ask him to do it. The implication is that you are not the authority enforcing his proper behavior, it is an authority who is not actually present at the time! Now the patron can curse out the absent authority in order to save face in front of his friends and not you. You have become his ally against the “disembodied authority” and have just helped to establish a rapport! Again, once a friendly rapport is established the patron is more easily controlled. I have even used this tactic to the point of agreeing what an a$$hole the “disembodied authority” is! This helps to establish a rapport because you are now both allies against the authority!!

The underlying purpose of these psychological tactics is to get the person to CHOSE to behave on their own. There is less belligerence and hostility involved and a greater likelihood the appropriate behavior will continue. Sometimes it is necessary to reinforce the established rapport through free rounds of beer or other means, but this involves less chaos then the alternatives!

Of course there are times where nothing short of physical intervention is necessary. It is a bar after all! But with practice these and similar tactics may avert the need for direct confrontation!

[Fu-Pow]

Nah...it's much better to pound people into submission!

[PangQuan]

its all in my sig...

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Pretty much what GDA said above. It's nothing more than a related incident, not an intention to settle the argument one way or the other. considering the number of them, if it was seven vs the family, and I was striking or standing grappling, I still woulda been in trouble.

However, I really didn't have to "try" to armlock the guy. Since he wasn't a grappler, he didn't think to fight it - I just snatched his arm. I could've easily broken it quickly and went to get back up.


youre a good man for taking all the what ifs applied to your actual situation in stride. i could personally see myself getting a little irritated, but then again if you post your experience on an online forum i guess you'd be stupid to expect anything else.


I'll grapple GDA. But if I submit him, I get to grapple with his woman AND her sister.

done.

she doesnt have a sister, but ill dress up as a girl and grapple you again. this is gonna be so sweet.

[Oso]

Anyway, this particular altercation involved a guy reacing under a waitresses skirt and grabbing her. One of the club managers saw him, removed his hand and warned him not to do it again. The man took issue to this and swung at the manager.

Scott,

In the above situation, IMO, the guy crossed a major line...basically, if I'm inferring correctly, he sexually assaulted the waitress. If Seven is relating this verbatim, the manager caught him in the act of doing it.

Mental control of a situation is all well and good. But, I'm not that PC. There are some things that warrent a physical response and the manager replied with the minimum needed to stop the situation. The guy was totally 100% wrong and escalated the situation by striking.

If I'd a been Seven I'd a had to think twice before not breaking his arm just on GP.

and it seems as if he continued fighting after the control was applied. this gives anyone attempting to control through non damaging methods license to step up a notch.

and, I don't buy people, who have assaulted my waitresses, beer. I've done that with other situations but not in that one.

why are you not perceiving that what he did is a huge no-no?

waitresses may not be strippers but the same rule goes.

and FTR, I was a bouncer for 7 years and managed a crew of bouncers for the last 5 of that. during that time I only every swung on people twice and fired guys for jumping the gun too quick.

so, I hear you but the guys actions were way beyond acceptable.

[Mr Punch]

lmao

+ 7 street credHang on pal, you're a bit generous with the street cred there, this IS Seven we're talking about. You do know everybody's grappled with GDA, his woman and her 'sister'?

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Oso,

Either I am not being clear enough in my comments, you are not reading them carefully enough or you are still not getting my point!

I have been trained as a peace officer and I worked as one for over 12 years, as a consequnce I perceive circumstances according to my training and experience. The most successful Peace Officers from training and self preservation tend to find the least aggressive means of dealing with situations in order to avoid excess paperwork and administrative second guessing which can endanger your career.

Of course I am a man and I find the jerk’s behavior reprehensible. To tell the truth I would have had no problem if the manager had cleaned his clock from the get go! That is my emotional reaction however and not a reasonable response!

Once again I am speaking here in pragmatic terms: circumstances should be resolved with the least amount of effort and chaos!! What apparently happened here is something that might have been handled informally turned into a brawl. It is fortunate that no one was seriously hurt including SevenStar and his co-bouncers. Luckily some fool didn’t pull a gun or start slashing with a knife. Most people wounded by experienced knife wielders are cut before they know the guy has a knife. There was one story on this board long ago about a bouncer who got his bicep cut and the assailant left the bar before the bouncer knew he was cut! It was apparently a permanent injury! These things happen!

The decision to punish the patron for his inappropriate behavior is an ego-centric decision. It is not a bouncer’s job to punish evil doers that is the prevue of the court system! The bouncer stops inappropriate behavior, expels miscreants and calls the police and presses charges for criminal behavior! Once a professional determines it is his job to punish patrons, for whatever reason, he runs the risk of being sued and his employer can be sued as well! If the bouncer uses excessive force due to his ego-centric motivations then he is even more in danger of law suit!! In my experience criminals love to sue people!

Once again, I am not necessarily speaking about this circumstance. I don’t like to second guess a circumstance I did not witness myself. But that doesn't mean we can't discuss it and learn from it! I merely intend to offer helpful suggestions that I have found effective. It may help avoid unnecessary complications, property damage, injuries and lawsuits!

[Mr Punch]

I agree with you on any potential non-sanctioned punishment being egocentric, but after what amounts to a sexual assault, I don't think anyone would have held it against Seven if he'd've 'accidentally' used a bit too much pressure and broken the guy's arm.

In terms of legal responses, even in a pressure situation I don't really see where the cop who blindsided Seven without knowing what was going on was getting off either.

Now can we get back to GDA's woman's 'sister'?!

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Mat,

I agree with you! But then again there is a difference between emotional responses and rational ones. We have the luxury of using reason after the fact because we are not caught up in the emotion of the moment. But then that is how review boards are conducted. From a "common man on the street" perspective you are right, Not many would fault Seven or the manger, but the courts would see it from a necessary vs. unnecessary force perspective. I am not going to make the call on that! Once again, that is what the courts are for, LOL!!! But IMO it is easier to avoid a court battle. It is not worth the stress or the financial burden. I have been there too!

As to the cop, I agree with you! Seven could actually probably file a complaint and maybe even sue. But he appears to be a level headed person and understands it was an innocent mistake. He was also apparently not seriously injured and it is easier to be magnanimous when you haven’t lost an eye, a tooth or had your skull caved in!

I don't know GDA's sister!! Can someone post a picture?? :D

[Oso]

Hi Oso,

Either I am not being clear enough in my comments, you are not reading them carefully enough or you are still not getting my point!

as I said, I hear you, I just don't agree in this exact situation as related to us here.

I have been trained as a peace officer and I worked as one for over 12 years, as a consequnce I perceive circumstances according to my training and experience. The most successful Peace Officers from training and self preservation tend to find the least aggressive means of dealing with situations in order to avoid excess paperwork and administrative second guessing which can endanger your career.


Of course I am a man and I find the jerk’s behavior reprehensible. To tell the truth I would have had no problem if the manager had cleaned his clock from the get go! That is my emotional reaction however and not a reasonable response!

FTR, my response isn't emotional either.
There is a rule, 'don't touch the waitresses' I'm pretty sure it's a consistent rule throughout most well run bars.
I've already laid out the progression of action/response. I won't do it again.

Once again I am speaking here in pragmatic terms: circumstances should be resolved with the least amount of effort and chaos!! What apparently happened here is something that might have been handled informally turned into a brawl. It is fortunate that no one was seriously hurt including SevenStar and his co-bouncers. Luckily some fool didn’t pull a gun or start slashing with a knife. Most people wounded by experienced knife wielders are cut before they know the guy has a knife. There was one story on this board long ago about a bouncer who got his bicep cut and the assailant left the bar before the bouncer knew he was cut! It was apparently a permanent injury! These things happen!

The decision to punish the patron for his inappropriate behavior is an ego-centric decision. It is not a bouncer’s job to punish evil doers that is the prevue of the court system! The bouncer stops inappropriate behavior, expels miscreants and calls the police and presses charges for criminal behavior! Once a professional determines it is his job to punish patrons, for whatever reason, he runs the risk of being sued and his employer can be sued as well! If the bouncer uses excessive force due to his ego-centric motivations then he is even more in danger of law suit!! In my experience criminals love to sue people!

again, I've already detailed the actions, and responses taken.
no court is, in this instance (which is the only one I'm talking about) going to side with the guy who started the whole mess w/ putting his hand up a skirt.
neither the manager's nor Seven's actions excessive.

Once again, I am not necessarily speaking about this circumstance.

well, then why are you commenting?
seriously, details matter. the details of this situation are pretty clear.

I don’t like to second guess a circumstance I did not witness myself.

But you are. You are saying that it should have been handled differently.

But that doesn't mean we can't discuss it and learn from it! I merely intend to offer helpful suggestions that I have found effective. It may help avoid unnecessary complications, property damage, injuries and lawsuits!

sorry, but I didn't agree with your examples of 50-1800 inmates being controlled with one jerk in a bar molesting a waitress. not even relative situations, IMO.

I've done everything you mentioned in one situation or another in my time bouncing. a patron running his hand under a waitresses skirt is completely different from 50+ ****ed off inmates.

of course, I don't think either the guy or the inmates deserve much respect.
but, as i said, I'm not that PC.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Oso,

I am commenting because it behooves one to examine circumstances in order to learn from them. Learning then improves one’s performance and preparation for similar circumstances! This is called debriefing by professionals and all professionals engage in critical examination to improve their skills. There is a difference between critical analysis to improve and being critical merely to derogate!

Good for you and you experiences! With your apparent attitude it sounds like you are well equipped to escalate a situation. I prefer to de-escalate a situation! I prefer to not be P.C. or an A$$. I prefer to settle problems with the least amount of force, hostility or aggression necessary. This avoids unnecessary injuries and legal problems! If it is necessary to resort to force that is fine too. Then, when a person has the opportunity I recommend they critically analyze the circumstance to improve their skills and preparation for the next occurrence! Blindly justifying ones actions does not improve ones performance. Critical analysis does!!

You clearly have not had to justify your actions before a review board or in a court of law or engaged in a debriefing. Removing a hand inappropriately underneath a dress is not considered excessive force and I was not intending to imply I considered it so. However, it may not be the most productive action either. This action did result in a rather large melee. This warrants reflection and consideration of alternative solutions should a similar event occur in the future!

You will have your attitude until you go too far and are held accountable for it. I understand many things occur in bars that are not going to occur in more civilized society, so perhaps you can get away with more gray behavior! However, in the professional environment there are greater consequences for the use of excessive force so we examine our actions constantly with the purpose of finding better more efficient means of accomplishing our goal!

I am not saying this event SHOULD have been handled differently. I am saying it COULD have been handled differently!! It could have been handled in a manner that might have reduced the opportunity for violence that escalated into a near melee! The greater the number involved in an altercation the greater the opportunity for injury; the injury of innocent patrons not involved AND the GOOD guys (bouncers)!

Certainly dealing with inmates is not EXACTLY the same as dealing with drunks in a bar. However, social skills are a clear asset in both environments and these social skills will be effective with some modification in all social circumstances. I have even used these skills deferring the potential violence of a public crowd that was near rioting! Just because you do not have the ability or opportunity to use them does not mean they won't be effective!

[Oso]

Ok. We disagree.

[SevenStar]

its all in my sig...


coincidentally, I've had customers comment on that one. A few customers told me that they thought I was an awesome bouncer compared to the others because they were TOO confrontational - They try to force their will on someone, which only provokes them, whereas I just ask/inform politely. They cause situations; I end them before they start.

[SevenStar]

done.

she doesnt have a sister, but ill dress up as a girl and grapple you again. this is gonna be so sweet.


LOL - the monitor is now sporting the mountain dew I was drinking...

[Judge Pen]

Hi Oso,

I think you missed my point! It was not whether it was “legal” to grab the patron in the first place, but whether it was pragmatic! If talking gets the job done without anyone getting hurt, then it is best! Any physical altercation runs many risks. Not only for the safety of the bouncers, but anyone else who chooses to get involved. The question then becomes: what is the safest, easiest and most effective way to resolve a situation, not what can be legal or ethically accomplished!

Ideally, the two (legal and ethical/pragmatic/safest) are one and the same. In Tennessee (where 7* lives) one has the right to use reasonable force in the defense of a third-party if that individual would be justifying in using the same force to defend themselves. If all it takes is a shove off, then good. If more is required it is still legal if justified. I see nothing illegal or unethical in how 7* handled the situation. In fact, control techniques are the easiest to justify later since they ostensibly only require enough force to control an attacker in lieu of beating him into submission.

Was what 7* did ideal under the circumstances? Probably considering that a patron like that needs to be removed from the premises. He is a danger to others (whether he stops grabbing the waitress) and a liability to the property owner if he is allowed to stay and then hurts someone else. Just removing a hand or asking politely may not be enough if he does it again or actually hurts someone later. Ask him to stop and leave first and if he doesn't, then escort him out using only reasonable force. I get the feeling that 7* knows this drill well.

[7th gen yang]

In Nevada in order to teach Martial Arts I was required by the state to have a License because of this I have to be carefull of my actions on anyone.

If I hit anyone It is concidered use of a deadly weapon there is very Limited situations allowed by law for me to use force!

Also If the other party is a Senior citizen it is a felony to strike him or her!

Just a word of caution ! :)

[Judge Pen]

In Nevada in order to teach Martial Arts I was required by the state to have a License because of this I have to be carefull of my actions on anyone.

If I hit anyone It is concidered use of a deadly weapon there is very Limited situations allowed by law for me to use force!

Also If the other party is a Senior citizen it is a felony to strike him or her!

Just a word of caution ! :)

In any state there are very limited situations where you are allowed to hit someone. And a trained martial artist hitting someone is not automatically the use of deadly force. It can be, but it depends on the circumstances surrounding the threat, the retaliation and the type/location/force/and intent of the strike.

[7th gen yang]

I agree with you Judge, as I said your limited to what you can do and by having a license Im just a little more cautious

this can also work against you!

[Judge Pen]

I agree with you Judge, as I said your limited to what you can do and by having a license Im just a little more cautious

this can also work against you!

Oh, absolutely. Any person with training will be looked at with more legal scrutiny. "If you are such a highly trained martial artists, did you have to break his arm to adequately defend yourself or did you get carried away?" It's an interesting conundrum, but as my teacher says, "It's better to be judged by 12 than carried out by six."

[7th gen yang]

Yes, Law dosn't mean Jack If your Dead! so break away! :D

[Ray Pina]

Very good. Also glad you're OK. But you're very lucky those "hits" weren't cuts. Sometimes you don't feel them either but when you see a piece of yourself flapping in the breeze it's a bit of a bug out.

Any casulties (broken noses, black eyes) on your side? Theirs?

[rogue]

LOL - the monitor is now sporting the mountain dew I was drinking...
Mountain Dew? Is that what you kids call it now?

[Scott R. Brown]

coincidentally, I've had customers comment on that one. A few customers told me that they thought I was an awesome bouncer compared to the others because they were TOO confrontational - They try to force their will on someone, which only provokes them, whereas I just ask/inform politely. They cause situations; I end them before they start.

Yes 7*!!

This is the point! Your postings have seemed to indicate you possess the maturity necessary to be effective using social skills! Patrons respond to a person who appears to respect their diginity regardless of whether they actually deserve it or not! It is not a question of how they DESERVE to be treated, but a question of what works best with the least amount of effort! To impose one's will is sometimes necessary, however it demonstates immaturity and poor judgment when one behaves in a manner that escalates the circumstance. A soft voice turns away wrath! Soft overcomes hard. Start easy and move to hard as necessary! These are the underlying principles of Kung-Fu. It is the man of low skill who resorts to force when force is not necessary!!

I am sure you have found that you are able to influence the behavior of patrons more effectively than many of your partners. This is due to the respect gained from handling patrons with what they percieve to be a fair and reasonable demeanor. Patrons observe how you treat other patrons. This gains respect and builds a reptuation of fairness. It is not unheard of to actually have patrons apologize when they realize they have been behaving like a jerk! This forges a bond between the authority figure and the patron. Your reputation will protect you in many circumstances. Who knows when a patron who has been treated fairly by you will come to your assistance when necessary, saving you from injury or intervening with their own unruly friends!

Once again, GOOD JOB!!!! :)

[PangQuan]

you are truly a man of magnificant attributes, a king among men, the best of the best, can i have your children, lets get married, wanna meet my parents?

oh wait, nm im not gay. sry for the psych up.

[Scott R. Brown]

“It is better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6” is nothing more than an over used aphorism often quoted, but rarely actually examined for appropriateness to the circumstance! It says nothing more than, “It is better to be alive, than dead!”

Who can argue with that, however it is more frequently appropriate to say:

“It is better to be out of jail, than in jail!”

“It is better to not be sued, than sued!”

“It is better no one be injured, than anyone be injured!”

"It is better to solve a probelm without violence, than with violence

[Sifu Darkfist]

This weekend on the job, we had several altercations break out - all of them except one involved multiple opponents. I guess there was just something in the water they were drinking this weekend...

Anyway, this particular altercation involved a guy reacing under a waitresses skirt and grabbing her. One of the club managers saw him, removed his hand and warned him not to do it again. The man took issue to this and swung at the manager. Myself and two other guys subdued him so we could escort him outside - then hell broke loose. Turned out that the guy was in town for a family reunion and that several of his family members were there as well, and weren't too happy about us tying him up. The three of us handled four people and managed to take them all down stairs and throw them out. Once on the street, they got rowdr again, and a few more of the family members from inside came running out (one of them was a female)

One guy in particular was pretty big and they were having troble keeping him still, so I swept his laeg from under him and he fell to the ground. We all followed him down, and he started flailing his arms while attempting to stand. I snatched one of his arms and applied a kimura - I didn't want to snap it, but I wanted him to comply - which he didn't. I warned him by saying "Listen, if you don't calm down, I'm gonna break your focking arm" I felt some hits during the time, but none of them were painful at all - I'm guessing they were just glancing or accidental hits from the guys other guards were fighting. Next thing I know, I get blindsided and knocked off of him, so I reach for my flashlight / stun gun (which I actually should've brought out earlier) and noticed that the guy who hit me was a cop. I said "wtf - I work here!" and spectators yelled that I was an employee. He cuffed the roughneck and later apologized for knocking me off of him.

After I got up, I saw another of our guys - a wrestler - with a man back mounted and under control. Ordinarily, I don't post about things that go on there, but since we often have the grappling vs multiple attacker debates, I figured it would be good here. That said, I feel the same way I have always felt - If you have to take him down, then by all means do so. Just be sure you know how to escape properly so that you can get back to your feet quickly. Also, the possibility to get hit by someone unseen is definitely there, so you have to be aware af everyone around you. being on the ground on the street or in a club doesn't always equate to you being shredded by broken glass, however, rolling on the concrete isn't comfortable. I didn't feel the scrapes I'd gotten until after the confrontation though, so I'm not even sure that "you can get torn up by the concrete" argument is even a legit factor.
so you want to ban him EH?
fact
the first target usually has a backup contingency and the bj people cant deal with this concept.
It is absolutely imperative that you drop perps on contact ( or else why did they invent the 45?). So by hand your connection should remain soft target in order to ensure that god forbid you encounter one real 10 percenter. You see i tell all my students the same, (and most can understand ... but most do not realize) that your life can end quick in any confrontation ANY CONFRONTATION>>> ANY CONFRONTATION, SOOOO if i was in the UFC i would use GUNG FU MIXED WITH BJJ but on the streets i am using common sense and it just so happens that a good regiment of Tang Lang Quan and a good sense of realism from exp or a sifu that has exp and is not afraid to share ( my master was wonderfully generous and still is ( thank you Wu tang)

[Knifefighter]

In Nevada in order to teach Martial Arts I was required by the state to have a License because of this I have to be carefull of my actions on anyone.Uh, that would be a business license. Just as the corner hardware store is required to have a business license.

[Mr Punch]

“It is better to be out of jail, than in jail!”

“It is better to not be sued, than sued!”

“It is better no one be injured, than anyone be injured!”

"It is better to solve a probelm without violence, than with violence To which I'd like to add, 'Rather be carried by six, than Big John's b!tch'. :D


Sifu Darkfist, are you saying you agree with Seven's actions or not. It seems like you don't.
but on the streets i am using common sense Seven, a pro bouncer with some experience, used his common sense to assess a situation and to resolve that situation without harm coming to anyone. True, this dirtwad and his family may be back, and I'm sure Seven will keep his wits about him and maybe even assume the worst if that situation arises.


Uh, that would be a business license. Just as the corner hardware store is required to have a business license.LOL... that'd be because hardware stores... er... contain many dangerous implements, surely?! :D

[Judge Pen]

Scott,

All your statements are true, but there's a ranking of the priorities there. Sure, I'd rather solve a situation without violence (and in my life I've been faced with that option several times: only once, in college, did a physical altercation occur--which, come to think of it, I used a control technique much like 7* did), but if violence seems inevitable, then you use your judgment and assessment of the situation to decide the appropriate amount of force even if that means your actions may be questioned in a legal forum later. It is better to not be sued than sued (something I know a little of) but it is also better to be alive than dead. There's a priority involved that every person must use their common sense in deciding the appropriate action.

Generally speaking, I think it would be a bit arrogant for us to assume that 7* didn't use common sense in assessing the situation and making the judgment call that he did. We weren't there; we don't have all the facts. Because of this, shouldn't we give him the benefit of his judgment? He seems like a reasonable chap who knows how to conduct himself in and out of the gym.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Judge Pen


Judge Pen

Generally speaking, I think it would be a bit arrogant for us to assume that 7* didn't use common sense in assessing the situation and making the judgment call that he did. We weren't there; we don't have all the facts. Because of this, shouldn't we give him the benefit of his judgment? He seems like a reasonable chap who knows how to conduct himself in and out of the gym.

Please take a few moments to re-read my previous posts. I mention nothing but respect and compliments for the way 7 handled the situation!

My criticism is not intended to derogate! I have repeatedly made that clear! I suggest learning from the situation in order to discover possible alternatives to the course of action taken that created this debacle. 7 did what he should have and the only thing he could have, he backed up his partners. Kudos to him for that.

As to the platitude: "Carried by 6 or judged by 12" it implies only two options. Kill, or be killed. This is clearly foolsih and unrealistic! The two choices only exist in extreme circumstances and they are rarely encountered. To teach someone they only have two options to resolve a situation is simplistic and irresponsible.

[Judge Pen]

Hi Judge Pen

Please take a few moments to re-read my previous posts. I mention nothing but respect and compliments for the way 7 handled the situation!

My criticism is not intended to derogate! I have repeatedly made that clear! I suggest learning from the situation in order to discover possible alternatives to the course of action taken that created this debacle. 7 did what he should have and the only thing he could have, he backed up his partners. Kudos to him for that.

As to the platitude: "Carried by 6 or judged by 12" it implies only two options. Kill, or be killed. This is clearly foolsih and unrealistic! The two choices only exist in extreme circumstances and they are rarely encountered. To teach someone they only have two options to resolve a situation is simplistic and irresponsible.

Hence my point of prioritizing the weighing of values. 6 v. 12 is the last resort, the options you have when all diplomacy and alternatives have been exhausted. Fortunately, they are rarely encountered. I have only uncounted a situation once in my life (but, then again, I've never bounced at a Memphis bar).

And I understand that you weren't criticizing 7* per se. I'm just giving him the benefit that he probably exhausted all other alternatives before the encounter turned into a physical altercation. I think every rationale human being and martial artist will agree that entering into a physical altercation is the last resort.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi JudgePen,

I agree with you then!

Keep in mind that wise and successful authority figures always debrief to determine what if anything can be done to improve performance and reduce the need for physical force. It is likely nothing else could have been done under these circumstances. However, that does not mean there should be no critical evaluation!

[SevenStar]

so you want to ban him EH?
fact
the first target usually has a backup contingency and the bj people cant deal with this concept.
It is absolutely imperative that you drop perps on contact ( or else why did they invent the 45?). So by hand your connection should remain soft target in order to ensure that god forbid you encounter one real 10 percenter. You see i tell all my students the same, (and most can understand ... but most do not realize) that your life can end quick in any confrontation ANY CONFRONTATION>>> ANY CONFRONTATION, SOOOO if i was in the UFC i would use GUNG FU MIXED WITH BJJ but on the streets i am using common sense and it just so happens that a good regiment of Tang Lang Quan and a good sense of realism from exp or a sifu that has exp and is not afraid to share ( my master was wonderfully generous and still is ( thank you Wu tang)

we deal with that concept just fine... CMA guys just like to assume that we don't. If yuo attend a bjj self defense class, you'll see that much of what you cover will indeed be standup grappling. Ideally I want to throw you and keep going, or hold you between myself and another attacker. But, we are dealing with the real world here, and everything isn't always as simple as we'd like.

1. you may end up on the ground.
2. there are situations where it is preferable to be on the ground.

ban him from what? the club? Nah, he can come back. We don't operate that way. When people get drunk, they can get crazy... they may not be like that the next night when they are sober or have drank less.

[7th gen yang]

Uh, that would be a business license. Just as the corner hardware store is required to have a business license.

you are correct it was for a business license,

But Its licensed through the police department which comes up on my Info, and it was mandatory for the approval of the Business License.

so unlike a business license it still makes me more liable for my actions in a confrontation, unlike people that don't, are of high skill, and can simply say I dont
know jack.

the guy at the hardware store didn't have to get licensed at the police department!

so either way I got Branded! :eek:

[MonkeySlap Too]

Seven,
My experience has been;

a.) You will always f@ck up in some way

b.) How well you recover, and make it look like 'you meant to do that' or ultimately survive is the measure of your true skill.

Good job, but next time DO NOT GO TO FOR A SUBMISSION ON THE GROUND IN AN OPEN ENVIRONMENT!!!!

You were very lucky, my friend.

Besides you coulda knocked his @ss out.. what are messing around for? :)

[rubthebuddha]

yeah, thunderlegs, why didn't you just give him a leg kick and watch him squirm on the ground in agony?

[SevenStar]

That definitely woulda been more fun. And I guess technically, if I KO him and he's immobile, he is restrained, right? :)

[LORD MATTHEW]

sevenstar you FLJCKing gay ass inbred mother FLJCKIN baboon. you say I am wrong NO you are wrong you nogood ***it :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :D :D :D :D :confused:

[SevenStar]

you must be one of the guys we clobbered that night. Ah well, welcome to the land of bannination...

[Gangsterfist]

I don't bounce but my roomate does, and several of my friends do. I have worked security for events when bars and stuff need extra staffing for that night. I usually for some reason get stuck around the money. you know the guy at the door that takes the cover charge. Maybe its because I seem so trustworthy, who knows? :confused:

Anyways, about 1 month ago was my little brother's 22nd birthday. So, he wanted to go out and drink, and I did. We went to two or three bars (memory is kinda fuzzy, and I'm Irish so there was lots of drinking) over the night. I remember carrying him to the last bar pretty much. He had his arm around my shoulders and kept swaying around so I would just pick him up by the waist and carry him up stairs and stuff. I mean it was his birthday so he deserves to get plastered. So, we walk up to the bar and all of the sudden this guy just taps me on the shoulder when I am ordering our beers and shots. I turn around to see this guy who was about 6'4" and about 1 and 1/2 times as wide as I am. I mean he was pretty big compared to me, but he was kinda chubby though, not built. He says I spilled his drink, and I look at his beer and its a bit over half full. I responded it did not look spilled. He claims we bumped him, and I responded that its near last call in a crowded bar, so he should expect to get bumped when people walk around.

Now this is the part that most of my friends disagree with. I turn my back to the guy and do my shot and start to drink my beer he taps me on the shoulder again, this time my little bro is ordering us some shots. He tries to like mean mug me or something and gives me what I guess is an evil stare. He asks me once more for a beer, and this time I am starting to get ****ed and the whisky starts talking. I look him right in the eye and tell him I am not buying him shiat so fock off! I turn around and slam my other shot. See the thing is I still had this beer in my hand, and there was a mirror at the bar, so when I turned around and had my back to him, I could still see him.

I get tapped on the shoulder again and by now I am almost about to get fired up. He says well at least I admire your bravery and he walked off. I am still not sure exactly what he meant but I guess he was used to using his size to bully people for stuff and I wasn't gonna put up with it so the second I confronted him back he got all scared and didn't know what to do. I think you can win fights with out fighting.

The whole time i was calm and relaxed until he kept bugging me and I had to get in his face just a bit to get him off my back.

But in 7*'s defense I have not been on a one on one fight in years. Every real fight I have gotten into has always involved multiple Vs Multiple.