Bak Mei Breathing?

[LingChuanPai]

I've always been interested in learning this style of CMA. However, there arent any schools in my area to learn it.
I've heard they use reverse breathing. Could someone please describe that and inform me why they use that as opposed to correct breathing? What's it for?
LCP :D

[Yum Cha]

I can describe it.

The purpose is to gain power from your breathing, not to loose power because of breathing. (note breathing strength from muscle, not oxygen, that is related, but different).

The skill is to breathe naturally, not to link your breathing to your techniques.

It involves holding a breath and letting it out slowly capturing the tension, and likewise while inhaling.

It takes a long time, you learn it through practice.

[mung foo]

In Bak mei breathing sometimes you would inhale and exhale depending on the technique you are doing and what you are trying to accomplish.

It is natural like what was stated. Jik bo is the foundation of bak mei. All movements are based on what is learned in that form.

In the qi gong sets breathing would follow the same path.

[fiercest tiger]

Hi,

Reverse breath is not like what has been said in anyway shape or form....Done wrongly you will end up with problems, i think you are better to breath like you normally would rather to try reverse breathing.

How can it be natural if you are breathing in and out on certain moves?

Do you rise and fall in bak mei and swallow and spit?

Chi kung is natural...

FT

[Yum Cha]

The skill is to free the breathing from the techniques and find a new power.

[Lau]

Yam Cha

You wrote:
"The skill is to free the breathing from the techniques and find a new power"

I disagree with that. One uses "tun" or "to" with a technique. Nothing in between or different. How can you use the force of the 6 powers without using tun or to?

Regards, Lau.

[fiercest tiger]

I think you are adding my Daoist and Buddhist internal arts into the BAK MEI fighting theories.......doesnt work unless you never rise and fall or swallow or spit. Therefore that isnt bak mei pai!!! :)

If you have FCTT you will have tension and singular breathing MOSTLY, reverse breath for chi kung if you want to try and do it.

FT

[Yum Cha]

LOL FT...I think you just discoverd the Pak Mei breathing in your daoist and buddhist martial arts training!

Lau, 6 powers, external powers. TTFC 4 internal powers. Of course the two are related, its a package deal.

I find it to be no problem to inhale and execute either of the two sets of internal power within a single breath. What I mean, is to take and hold a breath, and on the exhale, extend it across the: reach out, grab, sok sau (pull in) and strike out with cheung choi. That would require a rise, grab, fall and swallow, then spit.

or, say while inhailing to soi que (bridge across the body) and palm strike with the opposite hand, grab and cheung choi.

Now, I can only say how I'm taught by my Sifu. I can also say it has taken a long long time to relax the breathing instinct to a more natural pace. The taking of a breath and holding it, squeezing it out across several moves, TTFC regardless is the primary skill. Finding equal power while inhaling is a lot harder, and I tend to probably spend 3 times as long exhaling as I do inhailing, but I'm getting better at it. I also get a lot of Oxygen, and feel more relaxed and faster.


It comes back to the favorite question, "How many breaths does it take to do Gau Bo Twi?" 2? 4? 5...6? We certainly know there are dozens and dozens of TTFC shifts in Gau Bo Twi...

I do find that I usually inhale on the bridging and perhaps first strike, then exhale as I continue through several more attacks.

And, the breaths in or out are punctuated by muscular exertions, but not linked to them. At least till I get puffed out, then it all goes to sh1t.


PS I've never heard this refered to as "Reverse breathing" only as Daoist breathing or "Natural breathing". But it is a Pak Mei skill uncommon in other southern styles. Perhaps Reverse breathing is something different, but the question's essence was about Pak Mei breathing.

[fiercest tiger]

You lost your mind..hahhaha god love you mate! ACTUALLY reverse breathing is not like natural and the belly/diaphram does the opposite to what you would naturally.

Bak Mei principles for fighting in the "FORMS" are not done reverse breathing for what i was taught.

As for teh natural way yes you can do that but you will lose the Bak Mei body and power generation...Due the explosive breathing and body connecting. Is you do it just relaxed and no snapping or jerking then yeah go ahead but you will not have the bak mei geng jak ging.

FT:)

Good chatting about stuff again...:)

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Who is everyone's Bak Mei Sifu's? It would be a good starting point to clarify before the discussions go further....

[fiercest tiger]

Who is yours Lama?

FT:)

[kung fu fighter]

Hi,

I remember reading an article about Bak mei's reverse breathing in the legends of kung fu column in black belt magazine by mark cheng. I remember the article explaining how bak mei practioners inhale to create compression like inflating a balloon upon impact of their strikes where everone else exhale.

Can you explain how this is done and the details involved, as well as why it works?

Thanks
kung fu Fighter

[Lama Pai Sifu]

My Lama Pai, Choy Lay Fut and Bok Mei Sifu was Grandmaster Chan Tai-San.

[Yum Cha]

Gee FT, I keep telling you we're different, and you keep thinking we're not...I'd say this is pretty cornerstone when it comes to the difference. And of course, I've never said THAT before...

But, fair enough, I'm backing away from this "Reverse Breathing" name, because I'm not sure that's what I'm talking about, Somebody else may own that term....I'm just talking about Pak Mei breathing....Natural "daoist" breathing, and the fact that sometimes, you are doing the opposite of what most people assume, sharp exhale on the strike, inhale on the in-between....

Take a breath, hold it, and exhale across a number of movements. Then, learn how to inhale and exert as well. Soon the two become more natural in their cycle. Diaphram becomes more relaxed, Body core generates strength through tension, some people also call it part of Iron shirt, golden bell, whatever, whatever, that's just what I read, never heard that from Sifu. Its pretty simple. I haven't seen many people that can do it though. Its one of those "usless" by-products of 25 years of form training LOL. And, you're wondering, but can you use it in a fight?? :p

Of course not, its just for fun! Keeps an old pot-bellied guy like me from getting tired training with all them young hot shots!

Welcome to the soiree Lama Pie Guy! My lineage is on the website in my profile mate. I also studied Yau Kung Mun 4 years with FT's late Master, Cheung Leung - until he retired. The styles are close, but not exact.

What is your take on this kind of breathing?

How much Pak Mei did you learn from Chan Tai San? Ross said he studied a bit with CLC and CLC had strange ways, I'd be interested to hear more...was CTS Hakka?

Remember Bruce Lee squeeling like a cat in his movies? Back when I did Tae Kwon Do and Karate, I couldn't conscieve how he was breathing, but now days, its totally obvious, that's the sound, granted, not so **** squeelie, that I listen for when the lads are training to see if they are gettting it.


Lau, is this sounding familiar to you at all, or is it different. Feel free to PM me if you want to go off board.

[fiercest tiger]

Reverse breathing is done to help direct chi to the extremities for fighting as well healing, buit without a proper teacher you can do it wrong. Natural breathing IMHO is far better for health and NATURAL.

Buddhist use natural breathing too...

Hi Lama,

How far did your sifu go within Bak Mei , i saw the clip of pole form i havent seen any hands though?! You have clips of your sifu doing bak mei hands?

Regards
FT

[Lau]

Hi Yam cha,

My belief is that one uses either "tun" or "to" with a technique. Nothing in between or different. Or like FT wrote :

Begin of FT quote
"As for teh natural way yes you can do that but you will lose the Bak Mei body and power generation...Due the explosive breathing and body connecting. Is you do it just relaxed and no snapping or jerking then yeah go ahead but you will not have the bak mei geng jak ging." End of FT quote

I never breathe in while using power. I either breathe out or what kung fu fighter calls "create compression like inflating a balloon". To or tun, one of these 2 every technique. Let me PM you an example later today to explain my thoughts further.

Regards, Lau

[TAO YIN]

Excellent thread,

IMHO, when using Bak Mei ways of FCTT, if you bridge and have an opening to rip your opponent's shoulder out of socket, breathe in. If you are smashing and bashing, breathe out. If you are using Bak Mei principles, breathing in while punching isn't very powerful. Likewise, breathing out while pulling/ ripping isn't very powerful; however, it's more powerful than breathing in while punching.

Again, IMO, I don't think that reverse breathing has much use for fighting. In the past, reverse breathing was mainly for healing and qi gong, and had little to do with fighting. Over time, masters blended it with their external forms, and came up with a little of this and that. BUT, how much sense does it make to breathe in while punching? How much sense does it make to breathe out while pulling? Off topic but on topic, do a sit up. Is it "more natural" to breathe in or out while sitting up? Of course, breathing out. Unless you are wanting to chisel your abs or some such, why do it backwards.

Back to topic, why not just breathe naturally while fighting? Pulling FCTT apart is troublesome, and somewhat incorrect because once pulled apart it doesn't translate to fighting very well. Jik Bo is basically constructed so that Fou is breathe in, Chum is breathe out, Tung is breathe in, Tou is breathe out. BUT, they all work together simultaneously? What? That isn't very natural. It all goes back to the old question, can you have "iron body" while breathing in? If you can't, then you better go back to the drawing board because you can't always breathe out while attacking.

tao

[fiercest tiger]

Why cant it be cotton stomach breathing in and irn body on the way out?;)

ahhhhhhhhhhhhh bingo ahhhhh

[TAO YIN]

uuuuuuuuuuuuuh,

Ah Mei To Fa, is all I have to say to that.

[fiercest tiger]

I say dil la gwai lo, and have a nice day!!:P

[Sui]

why not cotton belly iron body?

answer: because of shoalin oriented tao.ttfc is for beginers and still quite hard for them to grasp.

i can remember yums breathing was one in, two out,in a simplar way for me to understand,great power yes but also great flaw too.
f.t's however is all rounded for protection alot or the same as dak mors breathing methods.however the true pak mei tao broke the cotton belly and the iron body with something call ging as you girls know.

yum verses ft,yes if his ging was true then the cotton belly and the iron body would return to mass + water.

now the great flaw as i mentioned or dare i say,is for me.................

your loving brother sui

[fiercest tiger]

LOVES rears its UGLY head, hey bro wassup?

Funny thing about theories when the sh!t hits the fan, they dont know what they are doing with breathing during a real fight. So why train something that doesnt happen when the sh!t hits the fan?;)

I agree that natural is far better, anyway for me but i dont practise Bak Mei hand forms anymore, i do only internal kung fu and meditation. My breathing and FCTT is not like many because its natural to do and it happens naturally withoiut force. But forms of BAK MEI use that theory in the beginning, in the middle and in the end. Some can move fast and dont rise and fall so much and some dont swallow and spit so much, if you tighting these circles you can move quicker and faster and use a more natural breath. But that is not reverse breathing, maybe reserve breathing yummy is talking about?

I have macdonalds belly no one can penetrate it due to its preserved insides...muhahahahah, Muhahah, MUHAHAHAHAH :eek:

FT

[Yum Cha]

Hi Guys,


I think to some extent, we all find ways to firstly discover our faults, then to overcome them. I can remember my problems earlier on, 1) My opponents were always dancing just out of reach, and I had to chase them down. 2) I hesitated in following through with the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc attacks.

I'm a bigger guy than many, power development came early on, and after a point, there was ample power to do the job, and often led to overcommittment, which adversely effected the ability to follow through with the combinations.

I found that breathing and stance solved all these issues, core fundamentals.

Hi Sui, are you getting old yet?

[Sui]

f.t,yes far better however must train ttfc to tighten and then it becomes natural,so that it doesn't become consious in a real fight.i still believe that pak mei breathing is more all rounded than any other style(girly w/c etc) for fighting.and also agree that you must go on to internal kf and meds as you for an old balding guy.lol
reverse breathing could be two in one out wich also has a huge flaw but even more powerful than one in two out but developes into a chen style or hsing yi internal.was this what yums did?

hi yum,yes getting older and mellower but still not composed as i'd like to be,fustration still gets me much.i believe in letting go than to overcome helps me better.(and staying out of arguments) but still haven't perfected yet.
yeah i can see what you mean breathing and stance as my uncle was is a big guy and his benn fa is extra ordinary too.but the problem is that you and he is limited as can't attack,maybe that is the true kf way but where is your darkness it must be difficult for you to realise as your ego does not surface(which is a bad thing not reconising it).

[fiercest tiger]

Yeah, its all up to you, if it works then use it, you know?! I dont really care much about the external hand forms these days ive moved onto better things IMHO, im more healthier now then 5 years ago with 6 months of doing Chi Kung (Yau Kung).

Anyway nice to see us all back on the **** foeroom...;)

Sui, whats your focus on these days mate?

FT

[Sui]

yes focus?the main is to let go of that thing called want.to flow through life till my death and knowing whats true within the moment.if i can acomplish this till i stop breathing,lol then i would be happy i think.there is nothing in my way as before and the 4 noble truths that i feel are not such as an illusion,but never the less are!
i hope after death there is another adventure for me,and when you die i hope we can all get together and have a great laugh at our egos.lol

i'm glad f.t that you have moved on,the transition is always a good thing,but sometimes i think,god wouldn't it be great to be a begginer again and struggle through it all,what a laugh.

so begginers try not to look at breathing as a seperate entity it will sort itself out within your training,do what you feel maximises your energy,because when you stop, hopfully you laugh like the sound of a five year old.lol

[fiercest tiger]

Well said Sui, you are right about what you said. What matters is we get younger as we get older return the beginning.

All the best guys!

FT

[Yum Cha]

Hi Sui,
Interesting that you call it that, 1 in, 2 out. It makes sense to me. I'm more like 1 in 3 or 4 out, depending on how winded I am. I'm working on 2 in, 3 out. What I don't know yet is if there is a 1 in 1 out potential. I try to get at least three techniques into a breath when practicing combinations.

You sh1t me Sui, everytime I think you are different, I discover you are not. I think you nailed it with my attitude to attack physically and spiritually. It is harder for me to attack than to receive "with a vengence". In the art of war, the defender always has the advantage. The edge comes with the committed attack in defense. Timing, sticking and follow through.

How does that old SPM couplet go? If you don't move, I don't move, if you attack, I arrive first" or something like that?

FT, how much longer to Fatherhood?

Cheers

[Yum Cha]

Well said Sui, you are right about what you said. What matters is we get younger as we get older return the beginning.

FT

Yea, I'm already getting close to being a toothless, bald headed babbling little nappy clad drooler, sh1tting me self and eating mashed veggies...all it takes is one night out on the turps these days, and I swear to God, the next morning.......

[fiercest tiger]

hey, Baby arriving by post hopefully mid January!! ;)

horse is not a T nor a V
U dont attack i wont defend

FT

[fiercest tiger]

lol

you have been doing that all your life matthew, maybe you are ONE already?;)

[Yum Cha]

hey, Baby arriving by post hopefully mid January!! ;)

FT

Ahhh, a Rooster baby, like me.

[fiercest tiger]

lol SAME AS ME BIG FELLA!!;)

U wanna **** fight?;)

FT