Beginner, Intermediate, and Advanced

[hskwarrior]

This isn't the first time that I have had the thought wandering around in my cranial cavity. But, and this goes for any martial art...........how do you define a hand form as being either beginner, Intermediate, or Advanced?

Aside from a beginner, and sometimes intermediate, but what makes an advanced form so advanced? Where and how do you draw the line between the levels?

let's pick advanced for now, but how will that advanced form enhance what you should already have by now? Sorry, it's just that within all three branches of the Choy Lee Fut system altogether, then has to be more than 400 hand and weapon forms.

why would anyone need that many? why would anyone need 100 or even 50? if you have that many forms, how and when do you have to time needed to perfect all of them to the highest standards when you have a family and a daytime job?
is this even possible in todays society?


hsk

[hskwarrior]

what no one has an answer to my questions?

is there no one who knows the differences in why these forms are developed in these levels?

that is kinda week. i had more faith in most of you here. no knowledge havin' suckas :D

go talk about bodybuilding in the southern chinese forum, yeah!

[David Jamieson]

you're not a very patient person are you.

You just posted this yesterday, it is seemingly specific to CLF but this is not indicated in the topic title.

If you want to ask a direct question about CLF, put it in the topic title. There are quite a few CLF pracs here on the boards who would likely give opinions and perspectives on the matter.

In my own personal opinion and barring style specificity.

Beginners are tending to be rigid and not in touch with their bodies and ergo not having ability in the regulation of how their body moves.

Intermediate pracs know the shape, and have better body balance but often times are missing the all important power issuance or some other subtleties of the body movement, power issuance, feel and shape of a taolu or kuen if you prefer and generally cannot fully apply everything contained in the sets in a realistic setting.

Advanced pracs are smooth, they flow through the material like water in a stream bed. They can apply the techniques on the fly in a realistic situation. It is these who are the embodiment of the kungfu.

as for why have so much in a curriculum? why not? It serves to be a system taht can fit to any player if there are more options for learning.

Not every sifu knows all the forms and certainly they don't practice them all with regularity. Many will pick those sets that they have a personal preference for and make those their hallmarks. The rest will be kept for posterity and drawn upon with those students who require what's in them to advance in their own kungfu.

just my opinion. I'm sure others can contribute here as well.

[PangQuan]

I would say for beginners forms they would primarily be comprised of more basic techniques and movements. Not so much ambidextrious movement involved. Basic stance transitions and movement comprised of more simple applications. At this point the student is still becoming familiar with your styles flavor and basic techniques

Step that up a notch, throw in some more full body simultanious movements and quicker more invloved transitions with more applications intertwined within the sequence. Now the student should be more comfortable with the foundation of the style, and able to execute any of the more basic techniqes and applications with ease.

Stepping up to the advanced level. One should be able to memorize movement much faster as well as having a complete understanding of all the basics. The body itself will be more adapted to the more complex postures and positioning, to make the movements flow with ease. Less force is neccessary to complete a movement or technique and still aquire the desired result. A "lightness" will be apparent due to the ease of movement, and one will be able to focus more on speed and precision while implimenting power. Within the forms themselves, the intricacy of the applications will increase adding an element of endless contemplation and new understanding.

As I do not consider myself an advanced kung fu man. This is purely from what I have noticed through detail oriented observation of my master and other advanced martial artists.

Basically "advanced" forms require not only a mental comprehension of all that will be required, but also the physical capability to perform what is required with out any major difficulty.

[Fu-Pow]

Well...

I guess its that even though there are so many forms many of the techniques that exist within the forms are the same. So if you can "master" individual techniques and you can remember the sequence of the forms then you could theoretically master all the forms.

That being said, Mak Sifu probably has 40-50 forms (at least that I know of) but he does them all really, really, really well. There are probably more that he learned from LKH but he has abandoned a few over the years because he didn't think they fit his body type very well.

[brothernumber9]

I think many of the styles with dozens or hundreds of forms, have so many so they can keep students longer. In other words, so that the student does not get bored or discouraged and leave for not doing anything new for a long period of time. At least where it concerns teachers that try to make a living solely from teaching their art. In many of the at least southern styles I've seen, many of the different forms contain many of the same techniques over and over again and perhaps introduce only a few new techniques or concepts in each form, although sometimes not.

[CLFNole]

For me there are a couple of different things.

Beginner sets will tend to be more linear with relatively simple hand & leg work. Stances will be fundamental in nature and the footwork fairly easy.

When you move up to intermediate level sets the hand and foot work might increase somewhat in difficulty with varying levels and angles of attack; however I think primarily footwork will become more active and more angles will be brought in. More of a variety in stances is seen.

Finally with advanced forms, feel becomes the main issue. Of course the forms themselves can become more difficult and longer but feel to me is what sets and advanced practitioners from less experienced ones. In CLF for example as you advance and practice for a long time you realized that every set is not meant to be done in the same manner (same jing if you well). Some are distincively hard and fast, while others more subtle.

A prime example would be Hok Ying (Crane) Kuen. On the surface the form is not too hard to learn. My sifu taught it not to long ago as a seminar and it had a good turnout. While helping him and one of my hing dai teach the form I notice that virtually all of them had no idea of what the feel was like as they were not advanced and had not been exposed to any animal sets. Even after seeing some of them practice it for several months now they don't do it correctly. Someone asked me how long it took before I felt good with it and I told them about 5 years and I learned the form 8 years ago.

I have been doing kung fu for about 13 years and am just starting to see the light. Time and diligent practice is what will give you feel. That and learning to apply what you know, but we are talking about sets here.

As far as a number of sets, I don't see a specific number as important; however having a variety to chose from makes it better to fit a form to someones body type. If you only have 3-4 forms then every body type will have to conform to the sets. Not that there is anything wrong with that but its nice to have a pair of pants that fit well rather than buying a one size fits all. ;)

[hskwarrior]

thanks,

Nole, i like your answer the best. it made more sense. and so did brothernumber 9.

and to mr. jamieson, i know you like to stir it up, but yes i am a clf man, and thats all i know, but if you read my post you will see that i also said it was for any style to add their 2 cents to, not just clf. "seemingly" you got me wrong.



hsk