We're switching to a belt system.

[Fu-Pow]

As of this Friday my kung fu school is officially switching to a 5 color belt system. Their will be a test and belts will be issued based on where the student is in the curriculum. A standard color belt (yellow) will be worn for public performances but for training students will be required to wear the color of their "level."

Anyone know what to expect? How thing will change? Forewarnings? Caveats? Pros and Cons?

Etc.

Thanks

[sean_stonehart]

Change... None if the seniors support their Sifu.

Pros / Cons....

Pro...
Little Johnny's mom (who's paying tuition) likes to see Johnny progress & mark his progress. She can now do that easily. Little Johnny whill now be encouraged to "stick it out" to reach a certain level, that would would've been reached anyway, but the color changes will help give a "sense of accomplishment" that Americans in general like.

Cons...
"Not Chinese" ... ;)

Cavaets...
"Belt Factory" label is always possible, but for business sake, is a good mood. Let the hands do the talking & don't sacrifice skill for progression for the sake of progression.

[PangQuan]

not much will really change. its all superficial and completely external.

pros: will be easier for new students to identify who has been there the longes, thus who should be best to ask for advice.

cons: peeps will think the belt actually means something :rolleyes:

we use a belt system too, but mostly for the students, ask my sifu about them and he will tell you they mean nothing.

tests are good at determining how far one is capable of physically pushing themselves. as well as seeing how well one can perform when totally and utterly out of physical energy, running on basic reserves and will power. this is actually the best part.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Good for you! It's certainly a step in the right direction!

[CLFNole]

Fu-Pow:

Personally I prefer the one sash traditional way. The reason is that it gives the perception of everyone being an equal. My sifus school used different color in the lettering of the shirts to differentiate level. This is more subtle and passers by wouldn't really notice it. Personally I like it if everyone wears the same thing, the way they did it in Hong Kong. Without different color shirts or sashes people new their place in the schools hiarchy (sp). It is very obviousl who is a beginner, intermediate or advanced student.


My sihing has a school with the belt system and to me it doesn't help business. Actually I think the colored belts give people a false sense of reality. But that is me. It has worked for some and I guess you know who I am referring to but it is not for me.

Good luck either way and if your sifu finds he doesn't like it you can always switch back to the old way.

[TenTigers]

The only problem is when you evaluate students and rank them on their performance. If you dissapoint people, they will be dejected, and might quit. The belt is supposed to always be a positive thing. You might want to instead evaluate them on how much of the curriculum they have learned-with reasonable proficiency. Black Belt Attitude, not Black Belt skill. (unless they are going for Black Belt, of course)
DO NOT institute a rank system until you have a well thought out curriculum in place first. This way the rank is a guage, a stepping stone-short term goals being achieved on the way to the long term goal-which must be firmly planted in their minds. Otherwise this may backfire miserably.
Another thing I do is I give an evaluation before the test. This is done on the floor, one on one. In this way, if the student is ready, we schedule a "promotion" test. If they still need work, you can work with them, or schedule private lessons to get them ready. You should NEVER fail a student on a rank test. Either they are ready or they aren't. The test is supposed to always be a positive experience, You never want someone going home thinking, "I suck!"
The evaluation is actually the test. The test, is really a formality. an attaboy!
In this way, you will always have a win-win situation. You will have progress checks on your students, assuring quality control, and they will always be motivated to stay.

[SevenStar]

not much will really change. its all superficial and completely external.



theoretically, anyway. I've seen a school go down because of ranking. the addition of the ranking system did as sean said - it brought more students. Problem is that not all students have the same work ethic. but they all pay the same money and want to progress as well. They still had to know their stuff - they didn't turn into a belt factory - but the standard seemed to lower itself to accomodate some of the students.

[Fu-Pow]

Thanks for all the input thus far, I hope more people respond.

I haven't talked to Mak Sifu about this change yet, but I am guessing that he is implementing this change because of some indivduals in our school who our overstepping their "rank" already.

The problem has been with students who have trained in other styles who come to our school and after a minimal amount of training in Choy Lay Fut decide that they are ready to "teach" the other students. This has resulted in alot of erroneous information being passed around the school from the intermediate students to the beginning students.

We are a pretty laid back school and Mak Sifu is not big on disciplining people, especially adults, so I'm guessing that this is a way to implement more control without having to directly confront people.

As a new student coming into the school it is not clear who's instruction should be followed. A visual system seems to be the easiest way for new students to easily differentiate.

As to Ten Tigers comments, the belts will be based on which forms that the students knows from a 6 level curriculum which has been around for a long time. Eash level has around 3 hand/weapon forms in it. (When all 3 forms can be demonstrated the student will receive a certificate and new sash for $35. )

So there is already a pretty clear differentiation. The switch would just make a visual statement as to who knows what in terms of the form curriculum. I have a feeling it will have an added benefit of making it easier to group students during training.

Apparently, outside of the school, during performance, we will all wear one color.... which I think is good thing.

[PangQuan]

sounds like a good solution to a problem in this case.

it seems well thought out, and contemplated upon.

one of the strange things I have noticed with a belt system is when you have someone who is one or two ranks lower than someone else, yet has a better understanding of the forms that they do know, as well as having a better over all understanding of martial arts and combat in general. just seeing as how the other individual joined be fore them and has, competently learned thier forms, they are the senior. I was very surprised when i eventually made it to the advanced class, and was able to perform certain techniques or forms better than people several years my senior.

Just shows lack of dedication and hard work on thier part, as well as shows my hard work and dedication.

the better the lower ranks are the more it will push the higher ranks to "pick up the pace"

it does make for a good humbler though.

[CLFNole]

I hope the change can help with your problem; however its been my experience that correcting the problem you speak of needs to start from the top and with the senior instructors. We had the same problems and just laid down the law in a polite way saying things "in order to maintain the quality of our style please refrain from teaching others and leave it to sifu and the instructors".

You can't let the inmates run the asylum. I have seen it many times before, people without a clue trying to show others. I think to myself you have no f..n idea what your doing and your going teach someone". Some people are just plain stupid or don't realize that their kung fu isn't quite good enough to start teaching.

[gwa sow]

"Some people are just plain stupid"


definately got that right

[Infrazael]

Fu-Pow, I think it might help with the problem you said with people "overstepping" their rank, but I don't see how it could stop certain people from teachings wrong things. . . . . I mean, will Sifu tell them to stop showing beginners what to do?

Also, it's just about forms. No combat whatsoever. I don't have such a good feeling about this man. . . . .

[Fu-Pow]

Fu-Pow, I think it might help with the problem you said with people "overstepping" their rank, but I don't see how it could stop certain people from teachings wrong things. . . . . I mean, will Sifu tell them to stop showing beginners what to do?

Also, it's just about forms. No combat whatsoever. I don't have such a good feeling about this man. . . . .

I think in the end it will make it easier for beginners to seek help from the right person. Imagine if you are a new student in the school and you have all these things to learn and people to meet. It is not clear who knows what. All you know as a beginner is who is leading the warm ups. In our school that is not even always the most "senior" person. If we are on a sash system then you would see that this person is black or this person is red or whatever. It gives the beginner some idea of where to go. If we were all training together on the same days it would be different....Sifu could just say...hey listen to this guy...but people come and go and change schedules and it is not always clear who knows what especially on days where the instructors fill in.

Another pro is that for those of us that are "black sash" it will keep us motivated because we are supposed to be setting examples to the lower ranks. I can think of a few people in our school that know a lot but are in less that good shape physically. Perhaps this will motivate them to get their bodies in shape.

I also see some confusion come up with the concept of SiHing and SiDai in our school. SiHing or SiDai simply refers to the person who started training before or after you. People take this to mean your "position" in the school. Well, if you started training a year before me but you only come to class once a week for a year and I come to class 5 days a week then who is senior? If I am much more involved in the school then who is "senior?" Well, in the Chinese way of thinking a the person who started training first is senior even if they are a slack ass. I don't know how many times I've had to call someone SiSuk or SiBak that haven't even practiced Choy Lay Fut in like 40 years!

With the sash system it will become more clear within the school who has worked harder and who is "senior" in terms of the time and effort that they have put in to learning the system. I would hope that Sifu bases some of the testing on ability to apply the content of the form but I'm not sure if that is going to be the case. If it was my school I would definitley make application, sparring and even vocabulary and history part of the testing. And as Ten Tigers pointed out, I would not let anyone take the test unless I was confident they could "pass" it.

Regardless...I guess we'll see how it goes after Friday because it's pretty much out of our hands.

Ciao

[Sifu Darkfist]

The idea of belts originated in America (according to O SENSI of Aikido) and as such it is the American way. Parts of Wutang have followed. i can not help but ask myself, what happened to the fighter of the school? the old days where the respect was earned through ability and dedication to actual practice for those that can physically practice daily. we all the students that have been there forever but never actually train hard. we all have students that are as good at one year as those at 20. So how do we deal with this? i have the fighter of the school, He will demonstrate our resolve in hand to hand terms and everyone else strives to be him... as for me i can replace him but as Darkfist you must expect as much at 35 i use a 45 made by Gaston Glock. www.glock.com

[SevenStar]

America? I thought it originated in Japan...

[sean_stonehart]

Yeah that'd be Kano of the Kodokan & Judo, not America.

Americans may have expanded it & subsequently *******ized it to a point of downright ridiculous & silly, but it's a Japanese idea.

[Ben Gash]

Actually Kano took the idea from sashes worn by English swimmers :eek: Talk about full circle.
Personally, I feel belts are something of a double edged sword, and as such must be handled with care. The belt system must have good quality control, but if used well can also become a tool of quality control.
My school uses sashes, and for a long time after I got my black sash 5 years ago, I was quite apathetic about sashes. However, there has always been a big gap between me and the next highest grade (after a big falling away about 7 years ago, and some personal politics about 3 years ago) and I'd gotten quite comfortable in my Daisihing status. However, now there are several students at mid brown level, and I'm starting to think that actually I don't want to be the same grade as them, and that maybe I should get my sh*t together again and do my second degree test :(

[neit]

i have nothing against a ranking system. i'd just rather not wear it on my waist. thats more fashion/comfort wise though.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Ben, who did/do you train with? Anything besides CLF?

[Ben Gash]

I've PM'd you (rather a lot, it appears there's a thousand word limit :( ).