Fook Sau?

[marcus_pasram]

Hi Guys, Recently, I met up with practitioners from different WC lineages and we compared our understanding/interpretations of the 1st part our SLTs. There were differences, but everyone explained why they trained the way they did... though there were instances where the explanation was, 'Thats how my SiFu showed me' :rolleyes:

The Fook Sau was a good focal point for divergence as everyone did it differently. One performed it with the palm facing the ground and pushed out like an upside down 1st Tan Sau. Another performed it with a relaxed wrist and fingers where the wrist stayed along the center line and the elbow followed the ribcage and extended about a fist's distance from the body. The third person said he trained the fook sau with the fingers parallel to the chest and pointing to the toes of the opposite leg (if doing righthand fook sau, fingers point to toes of left leg as it pushes forward)

I train it so the fingers are relaxed and the wrist is in the center. Also the two bones of the forearm are aligned vertically. My interpretation is to press/restrain something and I imagine someone's tan sau pushing in as I push out.

How do you perform your fook sau? and what is the reason behind it?

Thanks in advance.

[e-Warrior]

Ah yes, fook sau, my favourite topic!

An explanation of how we do fook in the Victor Kan lineage:

Using the right arm place the forearm on or parallel to the centre line. The elbow must be tucked in, not sticking out and about a fist and a half away from the torso. Thus the entire forearm is on or parallel to the centre line. It is also parallel with the floor. Of course, the shoulders must not be dropped or pulled up. Also, the wrist is held vertical - if you imagine a line running through the wrist from the left to the right side of the hand/wrist or carpal bones then that line will be at right angles to the ground.

The wrist is then bent so that the hand is at right angles to the forearm and pointing to the left. Finally the 4 fingers and thumb are brought together to form a beak hand.

This is the “classical” or text book fook sau. It is performed this way in forms. However in use, when the student has mastered the technique then it can become loose or floppy in that the practitioner doesn’t always have to have the fingers in a beak hand. In fact, I find this beak hand arrangement makes the forearm a bit tense and rigid so I suspect its main use is for training purposes. The important point about the fook sau is the contact area which of course is the wrist used to control the opponent’s arm.

[Thaegen]

I do my fooksau like this:
A fist length between torso and elbow. Elbow is just alongside the centerline. Wrist and fingers are relaxed. Even the elbow is relaxed. It is important that the wrist is relaxed cause for beginners it is the first feeling sensor.
the elbow position is very important for your root and structure, the elbow can sink, you can rotate your forearm to make jatsau...

Ofcourse I am only a student

[Nick Forrer]

Fook sau is an action that is used primarily to cover the centre line from a same arm outside gate bridge just as tan sau is used to cover the centre line from a same arm inside gate bridge (Note: Covering the centre is not the same as being on the centre)

Thus the general idea with fook sau is to subdue, check or neutralise the forward force of your opponents tan sau (although in fighting it doesn’t of course have to be a tan sau but can be any attack provided it comes from a certain direction at a certain level), the underlying idea being to do this through lat sau jik chung i.e. continuous subtle forward pressure

Now many people's fook sau is purely defensive in nature. They use fook sau as a kind of hook with their wrist on the end of opponents tan sau. This is particularly prevalent in beginners since they feel psychologically securer from this position.

However since the idea in wing chun is to defend and attack together rather than just to defend or to defend and then attack, it is worth examining tan sau in more detail to see if there is a better solution.

Tan sau acts like a wedge which disperse your forward force laterally. It works because the forearm is 90 deg to the body and the elbow is roughly a fist and a half’s distance away from the body.
In order to beat tan sau therefore you need to collapse its structure in some way and in order to do this you first need to identify where it is structurally strong and where it is structurally weak. Try the following:
have someone hold out a Tan Sau, place your palm on their elbow and then try and push it across whilst they resist: you will find it very difficult. Now try the same thing but push on the wrist: you will find it comparatively easy- in fact you can do it with one finger only. Thus Tan Sau is structurally strong at the elbow but weak at the wrist and consequently to destroy tan sau you need to push it sideways at the wrist. The next question then is how best to do that. There are two possible candidates: the wrist and the elbow. If I use my wrist to push the tan across I have nothing left to hit with (since I must release my fook sau in order to hit). Moreover it only stops the hand it is in contact with: it still leaves a free line of attack for the other hand. However If I use my elbow to push the tan across I am not subject to the same difficulties: my wrist is still free to hit and it stifles the other hands line of attack. This is done via a twisting action i.e. a lateral adduction (movement towards the central axis) of the upper arm combined with a forward movement of the forearm towards the opponents central axis.

When done correctly, then, fook sau both destroys the structure of tan sau and leaves you with a free line of attack. But the idea of Lok Sau is, at least in the first instance. to establish a neutral state - with neither party having an advantage or clear line of attack. If I make a fook sau before my opponent has attacked then I have initiated rather than responded and thus violated this neutral state. Remember: The fook sau in SLT represents a finished fook sau and this should not be used when just rolling arms. Only when the opponent comes forward with his tan, that is, once his tan has become an attack, should you use it i.e. the finished SLT fook sau. Otherwise your arm should be relaxed with the palm down and the elbow slightly out. This will give you the freedom and room to make the full fook sau when the situation warrants it (like coc_king a gun but without shooting it).

I hope this makes sense......

[fa_jing]

very interesting post Nick. I've used the fook sao shape in sparring to just kind of drape it over their extended hand if they have one, then converting to another shape like jut sao or lan sao.

Can you contrast the using of the jom sao ( like a chopping inward tan sao ) to the use of the fook sao? It is mostly a question of the forward pressure of fook vs. the inward pressure of jom sao?

[roza]

Hi ,
another angle :
we do not try to use fook sau as aplication.We understand it more like a principle giving us some skills : brining the power from hips to elbow ,leading this power to both sides , bodyweight to forearm ,not only in position ,but during all the movement together with forward tension and sinking of the elbow.
The starting point of understanding to developing of explosive power could be also found in moment ,when Wu sau is changing to Fook sau in front of the body : the smalest joint - the wrist - and the biggest - hips - are working together in one time to one direction.Etc. ,etc.
Done this way ,alone or in chi sau with partner ,it helps to improve most of the movements ,no matter how you call them.
Of course ,this is not the way ,we explain it during the first lesson :)

Roza