Are chinese stylists selling out?

[Fallout]

It seems many kung fu styles are selling out to the "modern" UFC and san shou style combat. People are ditching thier forms and traditional techniques and moving towards wrestling, BJJ, kickboxing and even TKD strikes.

People want a quick fix that is easy to perform. If your going to sell out, then don't call it kung fu. Kung fu is for the street. These sport styles may increase your skill faster, but they won't take you as far in the long run.

It's painful to watch Cung Le do double leg takedowns. Kids in highschool do that. I want to see a chinese martial arts master perform traditional kung fu techniques. And he has a black belt in TKD? He even got a black belt in BJJ. Cung le is a joke and has sold out to sport styles instead of using his traditional kung fu.

[Fallout]

What really makes me mad is that he was a black belt in TKD and throws fancy head kicks. That may work in his sport situation but try that in the street wearing blue genes, shoes to slow your foot down, no time to strech first, and a cold day.... and your head kick may lead to you falling down. In his sport falling down is no big deal becuase the ref will just stand it up. Try that in the street and you will die.

He's really just a TKD black belt riding the kung fu name. I don't give him any traditional kung fu credit.

[GuSpeed]

Yeah I kind of agree with you. Kung fu is for the streets, and that's why sometimes it doesn't work well in the ring.

You can't jab someones eyes out or rip there neck apart. Kung fu was design for combat situation where you take out many attackers. That's why it's eye jab, groin kicks, and stuff that will maime if not kill someone.

You can't do that in the ring so many kung fu guys loses, and have to adapt to other styles so they can be effient in the ring.

[Chief Fox]

I think it's funny when people join an online disuccusion board and immediately start trash talking people.

Especially a person who has worked his ass off to get where he is. Which, by the way, is the true meaning of Kung Fu.

[PangQuan]

i dont think he claims any traditional roots. just basic san shou training...

a seasoned martial artist (h3ll even me) is able to throw a high kick without a warm up stretch. thats what all those years of stretching are for, to permanize the ability for instantanious use when needed.

if its all about cung le, hes a sport fighter first. he never "sold out" traditional kung fu. can you beat him at his game? didnt think so.

and if he has decided to start in with kung fu after other arts, can you really blame him for seeing the light and error of his ways? :p

anyone who fancy's high kicks should not be wearing tight blue jeans in the first place.

I wear kwons everywhere i go, and pants that resemble my kung fu pants, minus the tight ankles and add in some pockets.

generally i see it differently. traditional styles are not selling out. people who have not made it past the first 5 or so years of a traditional style are switching thier methods/styles. its not the styles, they remain the same as always. alot of people just dont have the dedication and desire to stick with a traditional chinese style. If your impatient you will never make it.

by the way, how are the 3 billy goats gruff doing these days? want another cookie?

[Fallout]

San Shou is a chinese martial arts competition. They sell out by not using traditional chinese systems. These guys are selling out to wrestling and kickboxing.

And the biggest insult is letting a TKD fighter become the champion of a kung fun event.

[lkfmdc]

Wow, I've got a lot of traditional Chinese martial arts masters I've got to call up now and tell them that their double legs aren't CMA!!!

Poor Liang Shou Yu for example, he even shows double legs in his Tai Chi and Bagua applications!

Sadly, as is well documented, there are too many deluded trolls who think you've got to dance around in a circle calling out animal names to do traditional kung fu..

These sorts of "traditional" plus a street fight = tragedy in the making....

Oh, and as a troll, I give this a 0.05

[PangQuan]

Ya fool, what he ^^ said!!!

[Merryprankster]

Hey wow! Look! A dead horse! Let's kick it.



People want a quick fix that is easy to perform. If your going to sell out, then don't call it kung fu. Kung fu is for the street. These sport styles may increase your skill faster, but they won't take you as far in the long run.

STUPIDEST POST EVER.

Do you do "street" in the kwoon? Do you break arms? Surprise attacks resulting in deaths? Concrete? Guns? Full speed application of eye gouges, groin kicks and knee stomps? You bite, tear and break skin and muscle and fat? Smash people into windows and glass and posts?

You mean you don't do these things full speed?

Oh...well, then it's just a simulation....with RULES.

Everybody plays by a set of rules. You happen to like your set better, but to argue that something is for the street while something else is sport based on the idea that there are rules is a bull**** copout - end of discussion.

[Chief Fox]

We were working on deadly techniques the other night in class and I acidentally killed my instructor and two of my classmates. I figure, it's the only way to truly learn and practice these techniques for the street.

[PangQuan]

i hear that, just last night sifu was showing us how to properly execute a couple of apps in a form and he used me for demonstration.

unfortunately i now am missing my left eye, and i have a broken elbow and got my shoulder dislocated.

but thats all part of learning traditional kung fu right? ill probably ambush one of the newer students tonight with bat to see how well they can handle my street style kung fu, and to let them know how to really practice.

[Shaolinlueb]

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid101/pfd7a7d9b8c7393cf40596a75147d852d/f9d781b2.jpg

what this thread should be :D

[PangQuan]

instead of banning trolls they should be re-routed to that page.

[northernArts]

It seems many kung fu styles are selling out to the "modern" UFC and san shou style combat. People are ditching thier forms and traditional techniques and moving towards wrestling, BJJ, kickboxing and even TKD strikes.

People want a quick fix that is easy to perform. If your going to sell out, then don't call it kung fu. Kung fu is for the street. These sport styles may increase your skill faster, but they won't take you as far in the long run.

It's painful to watch Cung Le do double leg takedowns. Kids in highschool do that. I want to see a chinese martial arts master perform traditional kung fu techniques. And he has a black belt in TKD? He even got a black belt in BJJ. Cung le is a joke and has sold out to sport styles instead of using his traditional kung fu.
:confused:
San shou is great - it's one of the best things to happen to CMA. It's going to help everyone in CMA I think. Don't knock san shou. Consider shuai chiao - it is CMA & wrestling & sport at the same time. Shuai Chiao competitions are cool. Both of these competition formats will help people to understand their CMA better IMO.

I think you should rethink your position. And Cung Le is wonderful - he's a great athlete who does everything in CMA - da, ti, shuai etc. with speed and power. I wouldn't want to fight that guy - I wouldn't want to fight any of his students. Another san shou guy who is awesome is Marvin Perry.

[Fallout]

I will pay you one MILLION dollars to say that to his face... :eek:


Well, he doesn't deny it. His wrestling is not Shuai Chiao, it is American folkstyle wrestling (high school style) that he has been training in all his life. His fancy kicks and scissors takedowns are from Taekwondo (ask him to his face he won't deny it).

Call me a troll if you like. But your using a TKD guy to promote your kung fu. Have you lost your mind? I remember when TKD was loathed. TKD goes for flash. He goes for acrobatic Taekwondo techniques. He is not a traditional CMA fighter and I refuse to acknowledge him as a CMA. He isn't even chinese.

It's really sad that you are following TKD like this. Of course i'm the troll becuase your all to brainwashed and blind to see that your letting a TKD stylist dominate a CMA competition. We need to get a CMA master in there to restore honor and credibility to CMA. You see someone win and are willing to worship TKD to promote your style.

[lkfmdc]

tsk tsk tsk

you need to work harder, this isn't even grade school level trolling

I give you an F

1, 2, 3.....

I also don't give you much longer to live on this forum

[Fallout]

Have to use the same post in 2 threads lkfmdc? Your using a red herring. Commonly used when your not able to dispute the facts that are laid out. Have you talked to Cung Le? I have.

This is not to disrespect him. This is to point out that his techniques and scissors takedowns come from the korean style of Taekwondo. He is a great sport fighter and surely is a better fighter than me. However he is still a sportsman.

[PangQuan]

oh crap, Im not Chinese!!! I must not be learning kung fu, especially since my sifu is Viet!!!!!!!!

I must be learning TKD. Surprisingly my TKD delivers kicks just like a kung fu system....hmmmmm.

not to mention the whole shaolin thing...

[lkfmdc]

yawn... this isn't the least bit amusing, like shooting fish in a coffee cup

I've known Cung since 1993 and talk to him at least 2 times a week, but you're the real expert! :rolleyes:

I regret there is not a grade lower than F

[rogue]

I've been trying for a couple of weeks now to get my new trolling persona going, but it's been **** near impossible with ****s like Fallout posting. :mad:

[rogue]

I really like how some kung fu styles are modernizing and competing in UFC and san shou style events. People are refocusing on what's in thier forms and traditional techniques and applying it with good results against BJJ, TKD and kickboxers while staying unique.

Kung fu is for the street and now by modernizing it it's also for the ring. The sport format increases your skills faster, but you still need qi gong to take you far in the long run. And this is why modernized CMA will dominate MMA in the future. The mixture of unique and superior techniques and the control of qi is unbeatable.

It's great to see Cung Le do Tiger Pulls Down the Boar in a match. It's great to see a chinese martial arts master perform traditional kung fu techniques and dominate his non-CMA competition. Cung le is a innovator and has pushed the bounderies of sport styles using his traditional kung fu.

Just watch, in the next five years the Gracie challenge will be retired and the CMA will be the new standard.

[David Jamieson]

jackie chan is now required to give up his hapkido training. :p

The argument against non-compliance and full resistance fight training generally is a lame duck. especially in context to kungfu where this type of training is important to the development of the fighters skills in the martial art.

There needs to be more inroads that are inclusive to this type of training and updating of methodologies.

If it does not evolve, if it is not flexible and changing, then it is not kungfu simply put.

I still do forms, but not to learn to get better at fighting.
I still do traditional style conditioning exercises, I still do qigong, I still do quite a lot of so called traditional training. But I wouldn't sell short the methods and training of modern martial arts. Better to include them. Only grows you as a martial artist.

[GeneChing]

Kung Fu started in China but now belongs to the world. You can partition your techniques all you like: this is kung fu/this is not kung fu - this is traditional/this is not traditional. All you do is shut doors in your own face. And that's not traditional kung fu. Take the following traditional kung fu aphorisms to heart:
"Bow one's head, learn arts from a hundred places"
"Learn from one more teacher, one knows one more skill"
Tradition just means we are connected to our past, but we certainly don't live there. We honor our ancestors by making their teachings relevant today, not keeping them exactly as they were, behind museum gallery glass. Kung fu is only valuable when it is applied - to wushu taolu, to sanda, to your life. It must be vital. Otherwise, you're just going through the motions.

[Akhilleus]

Sorry to go off on a tangent regarding Austin Powers, but this thread is about selling out, after all...also I apologize for the length of this post, but as you will see it's something I've been thinking about a lot since a dojo incident last month...

Mr. cjurakpt, I will address your comments because this is the second time in two months someone got mad at me for not humoring them when they referenced the Austin Powers films...Basically, a girl in class got upset because I made quote signs with my hands (I was actually trying to be like Stephen Colbert, not Dr Evil) but then refused to put my pinky up to my mouth when she told me I had to after I made those quote signs...I will tell you the same thing I told her...


and I'm very upset no one got my Dr. Evil reference on this...c'mon, say it like Dr. Evil would, say it!

8 years ago or whenever those films started coming out, I might have smiled or even countered with a phrase like, "ohhhhh behaive!" However, at this point, I, and apparently most other people reading this thread, had happily forgotten the dark days of the Austin Powers phenomena, which you have just reminded us of, thank you for that.

Would I watch one of the Austin Powers movies if nothing else was on? Sure, and I'd probably laugh at it too...they are funny to an extent, but not because of any creative or comedic talent on the parts of the writers or authors...they are simply willing to do outrageous and gross stuff that is funny to watch every now and then...however, in 2005, it's a pretty safe bet that if I make quote signs with my hands I'm not doing it because I'm trying to be like Dr. Evil...likewise, your comment that you will give us $1 million dollars was not appreciated, in fact, you are almost as bad as the real Dr. Evil...so by all means, laugh at these movies behind closed doors, but other than that let's try and forget that they ever happened...OK case closed...

[SevenStar]

Yeah I kind of agree with you. Kung fu is for the streets, and that's why sometimes it doesn't work well in the ring.

You can't jab someones eyes out or rip there neck apart. Kung fu was design for combat situation where you take out many attackers. That's why it's eye jab, groin kicks, and stuff that will maime if not kill someone.

You can't do that in the ring so many kung fu guys loses, and have to adapt to other styles so they can be effient in the ring.


that is an excuse, plain and simple. If you cannot use your principles and modify your techniques, there is a flaw there. Additionally, in the first few UFCs, eye gouges were allowable. you would get fined, but would not be disqualified. if you eye gouged a guy and he couldn't continue, you still won. I myself have been kicked in the groin in a fight... I didn't feel it until after the confrontation was done. There have been several pro fights where someone was kicked in the groin. guess what happened? The fight continued.

Do you really think that if eye gouges and groin strikes were allowed that other things such as ground skills would be unnecessary?

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

if a series of techniques gets incorporated into an art from another art it is not 'selling out', as some speculate. to understand this better, or from an historical perspective, try looking at the historical development of various styles within martial arts. specifically i reccommend looking at Shaolin Hong/Hung and Mantis. but to do this you also have to look at other styles in the geographic regions in which the main styles you're looking at occurred. Shaolin Hong and Hung gar are southern styles which pretty much encapsulate a little bit of everything southern. Mantis is primarily a northern style. the most complicated flavour i see is Mei Hua: it has lots of techniques which seem to have been built on the previous styles and then adds a slow practice method like tai chi chuan in the demonstrations.

so instead of looking at cma stylists as selling out perhaps you need to see it as "what are they including as fuctional methods"?

[unkokusai]

It's painful to watch Cung Le do double leg takedowns. Kids in highschool do that. .


Get your ass kicked by HS kids alot do ya?