power generation

[BeiTangLang]

info stolen from another thread makes for a good topic I think.


Forkintheroad: answered your question in a PM, but for the rest of the people, the heel stays on the ground, not that it doesn't pivot, it's just more stable on the ground, harder for people to pull you off balance with say a shifting step.



EarthDragon: To elaborate on what fork in the road has mentioned, My qigong teacher who speaks very little english had tried to explain that in order to be fully rooted or in this case to generate proper power you must make as much contact with the earth as possible to enable one to use its magnatics.
The more of the foot that makes contact with the ground, the better the root the better the power.
I have noticed that when practicing my TaiJi with her, she always points out that my power is not generated properly from the correct points.
She said power generation is from the yeung chin then circles around the
fu zong shin out to the lao gung then the energy is emitted from there in this case a hand strike.



Three Harmonies: I am not sure about all the magnetics and what not, but one thing is for sure.... "More surface area= More Power."

[Indestructible]

It's been my experience that mantis seldom fights from a fixed fighting position, heels down 4 point rooted stance. When using detecting legs and crushing steps he's shifting into the knees or stomping them from a three point rooted position, driving forward off the ball/toe of the rear foot. When he's being evasive with his jade ring footwork, it's still 3 point rooted, but it's like he's sliding on a sheet of glass.

[shirkers1]

Well guys I think it depends on what you're generating power for.. and how you train. If you train on the ball of your foot (like I do) then you'll be strong like bull... Better mobility, quicker footwork and the legs feed the wolf. I'm sorry but I hit like a cannon, and that's because of body mechanics and being on the balls of my feet are part of that. Now maybe certain moves require you to be flat footed and bending the legs to push or lift with which is fine, but usually when you execute the move you roll onto the balls of your feet any way.

How would you rather get hit by, a flat footed kung fu guy (with no boxing experience), or a boxer on the balls of his feet?

[shirkers1]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Many boxers- when they need real power go quickly flatfooted.

joy Chaudhuri


Once again depending on the situation, they may start off flat footed but the power is generated by pushing off or rolling onto the balls of the feet. That is the way I was taught. To me flat footed is staying flat footed and not moving from that position, so I would love for you to give some examples of american boxers who fight flat footed...

[BeiTangLang]

To me it is about stability. Yes, you can prance around very quickly on the balls of your feet, but when you actually strike, are both fo your feet that way or is one of them flat?? I'll bet the later. Try striking someone without having one of your feet planted & check out your stability. Yeah, you can hit somthing in a straight line ithout at least one foot planted because of momentum but if you miss, your opponent can topple you with one finger because you are way off balance.

Power generation for me personally is all about having a firm root & transferring that energy through my waist (not my hips) to the weapon being used.

[BeiTangLang]

To me flat footed is staying flat footed and not moving from that position, so I would love for you to give some examples of american boxers who fight flat footed...

Ok,...show me some American boxers that do a 7*....A Fan Che....Diu Sau....
Apples & Oranges Shirkers.

[Sifu Darkfist]

when you can apply your entire body weight behind the strike at high speed is the maximum power able to be generated by the physical self, combine this with the proper fajing generation and boom Great Grandmaster LI Shu Wen's one punch.

[shirkers1]

To me it is about stability. Yes, you can prance around very quickly on the balls of your feet, but when you actually strike, are both fo your feet that way or is one of them flat?? I'll bet the later. Try striking someone without having one of your feet planted & check out your stability. Yeah, you can hit somthing in a straight line ithout at least one foot planted because of momentum but if you miss, your opponent can topple you with one finger because you are way off balance.

Power generation for me personally is all about having a firm root & transferring that energy through my waist (not my hips) to the weapon being used.

I thought we were talking about both feet, sorry.. Agreed the lead leg is always flat footed unless you are pivoting for a hook lets say then yes it does roll up onto the ball of the foot, then technically the lead leg becomes the back leg while the hook is being thrown.. The back leg I usually have up on the ball of the foot. I wish my vids were still up, if you could look at the focus mit section you'd have a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

As for the apples and oranges comment... My statement was who would you rather be hit by, a flat footed kung fu guy or an american boxer on the ball of his foot when delivering a strike... So maybe you should take your question to heart, I think you were stating something that is apples to oranges but had nothing to do with what I said.

If you want to get technical I'm an american boxer who does all of those things and I am on the ball of my foot when delivering a strike. ;) So there you go one example, want more? Visit mike biggies school in akron ohio and you'll find a few more.

[BeiTangLang]

If you want to get technical I'm an american boxer who does all of those things and I am on the ball of my foot when delivering a strike. ;) So there you go one example, want more? Visit mike biggies school in akron ohio and you'll find a few more.

For sure we can discuss it next time we see each other.

Oh,...as for who I'd rather be hit by....all things being even I'd say neither one. :D
(BTW, "on the balls of his feet"-1st comment vs. "on the ball of his foot"-2nd comment is a critical conjuncture! :eek: )

[shirkers1]

For sure we can discuss it next time we see each other.


It's a date then.. ;)

Now if we're talking stability then sure flat footed is going to root you just fine. But think about this, if you strike while having both feet flat and stay flat you're just punching with your waist and arms, maybe if you're throwing an upper cut you can push up with your legs. Now rolling onto the balls or shooting/springing with the back leg you are pushing off of that back foot with the balls of your feet feeding the legs, waist, shoulders, and arms. A lot more power is generated this way...

Try jumping rope flat footed off of your heels..... now try jumping rope on the balls of your feet, you generate more power off the balls of your feet. This is the same energy that is produced when you shoot with the balls of your feet to strike or roll onto the balls of your feet.

If a big guy like you could learn how to do this effectively this would double your striking power, I've seen it first hand.

[shirkers1]

Oh,...as for who I'd rather be hit by....all things being even I'd say neither one. :D


Well no one like to get hit for sure. :D But honestly I can guarantee that 99.9% of the time the boxer will strike harder with his method than a flat footed person.

But like everything it's easier to show than talk so hopefully I can make it out to visit you guys during a seminar or something. :D

[shirkers1]

For sure we can discuss it next time we see each other.

Oh,...as for who I'd rather be hit by....all things being even I'd say neither one. :D
(BTW, "on the balls of his feet"-1st comment vs. "on the ball of his foot"-2nd comment is a critical conjuncture! :eek: )


To me there is no set lead leg, so the front leg can turn into the back leg during the strike simply by rolling up onto the ball and turning the waist.. So I know you can't see what I'm picturing in my head so you think I'm crazy and contradicting myself but I'm not... At that moment yes the lead foot is flat, until it turns into the pivot for another strike. If you strike right the natural thing to do is un pivot and strike left. Everything feeds and constantly flows and rotates..

[BeiTangLang]

Well no one like to get hit for sure. :D But honestly I can guarantee that 99.9% of the time the boxer will strike harder with his method than a flat footed person.

But like everything it's easier to show than talk so hopefully I can make it out to visit you guys during a seminar or something. :D

Quite litteraly I was trying to figure out the "on both balls of your feet" thing. I cannot argue that rolling one foor forward while maintaining your base does not increase your power on certain strikes....but I am more of a "glider" because I want to be able to move somewhere other than stright ahead/backwards with stability after I make contact.
I agree with the talk vs. show-n-tell. I look forward to the next trip!
Take care, ~R

[shirkers1]

Now keep in mind that being on the ball of the foot is generalized... Jab, straight punch, hook, upper cut, elbows.

Now certain strikes do indeed require different power generation. Example the fanza in laan dzeed near the end where you drop into a horse stance. The power is generated from wiast shoulder and arms and the dropping of the weight into the horse stance. Some of the strikes in the hand sets are delivered with a bow stance elongating the body to reach the target. The well known mantis technique of pull punching can be done with either rolling on the ball of the back foot or in the bow stance. Most of the power in the strike is being generated from the twisting of the waist and the pulling the opponent into the strike. I find myself rolling on my ball more than staying in the bow though. We could go down the line on tactics and describe how power is generated and what would be better for that specific tactic. We'd be here a while though.... :D

[shirkers1]

Quite litteraly I was trying to figure out the "on both balls of your feet" thing. I cannot argue that rolling one foor forward while maintaining your base does not increase your power on certain strikes....but I am more of a "glider" because I want to be able to move somewhere other than stright ahead/backwards with stability after I make contact.
I agree with the talk vs. show-n-tell. I look forward to the next trip!
Take care, ~R


Sorry about that, I have a million things going on in my head and they all don't make it to print.. Sometimes I'm seeing it in my head and typing but I'm not fully describing what's going on. :)

I don't want to hog the thread, I'm interested in what others think is better for power generation and why?

[shirkers1]

http://media.putfile.com/hookA16

http://media.putfile.com/jab1a

http://media.putfile.com/punchcombo1d

Now these are just focus mitt drills and done slow, but you get the idea of using the balls of your feet to feed the power.

http://media.putfile.com/palmdrill

http://media.putfile.com/kwa

http://media.putfile.com/kwapichoi

palm drill shows the pushing off with the back leg on the ball of the foot.

the kwa drills shows where you would use a hill climbing or partial horse.


I know it's stuff you've already seen but I think it will help explain a little what I'm talking about. Now granted I'm not going full speed or power but you get the idea from foot to fist where the power is coming from.

http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=bytt


If you look at mike here you can also see the feet beginning the power, although a lot of it is whipping power from the waist, shoulder and arms. You see that a lot of it is fed from the feet and pushing or rolling off of the balls of the feet. The upper body has power for sure but add the footwork in there and it gives it even more power. That's why I feel that footwork is one of the most important things to learn period.

[monkeyfoot]

I was re watching a video of my bung bo kuen form the other day and noticed that everytime I did the 3rd and 4th movement (the palm strike and the supplermentary punch) the rear foot was never flat but instead on the ball.

This actually gives me a lot of problems when im bursting through the form on the ball of the foot it in turn screws up the correct posture of the hill climbing stance - and I end up with something in between a hill climbing and circle entrance.

But then the problem is also that if I firmly root both feet flat on the ground, the speed of the transition between movements decreases. I remember bruce lee saying that a good powerful hit was achieved with the use of the back foot as a spring to your strike.

All I can say is this is causing me problems.~

craig

[Young Mantis]

Now if we're talking stability then sure flat footed is going to root you just fine. But think about this, if you strike while having both feet flat and stay flat you're just punching with your waist and arms, maybe if you're throwing an upper cut you can push up with your legs. Now rolling onto the balls or shooting/springing with the back leg you are pushing off of that back foot with the balls of your feet feeding the legs, waist, shoulders, and arms. A lot more power is generated this way...

We do not generate power this way. When punching or striking, the back heel generally stays on the ground and we use that contact to generate power. In fact we drive the heel into the ground, twisting the leg which then twists into the waist and out through the arm. This is how the power travels. It is from the rooting that we generate our power. The heel is like an anchor and with that anchor, I can generate more power from my waist. Almost all the power in the strike is issuing from the waist although the legs, shoulders and arms add to it. You may be too used to doing it your way and maybe I am too used to doing it mine for either to fully comprehend each other. I tried your method, I still feel more power driving my heel into the ground or rather, I feel stronger in my waist.

Also when pivoting the front foot for transitions, I also pivot on the heel and not the ball. I stay connected to the ground this way. Try this simple exercise. Stand straight up and lift your toes keeping your heel on the ground. Has your body moved up at all? Now stand straight again and lift your heels off the ground. Now has your body moved vertically? When you shift onto the balls of your feet, you are actually lifting your body off the ground. Your body weight must shift forward to the balls of your feet. When I pivot and transition, I do not want to lose contact with the floor and this is for stability and rooting. I do not find it any slower than turning on the balls of my feet, in fact, I think its faster since there is no shifting.

This is not to say that the back heel never leaves the ground. There are certainly techniques in which it does such as in the yup waan bo or even when shuffling with monkey footwork. It depends on the type of strike I am making and what kind of power I need to issue. I know something similar was said already. At least we can agree that there are different situations that call for different body mechanics.

Shirkers, if I may say, your drills with the focus mitts are strong and you show a lot of power. Because you are striking sideways, you twist your body a lot and so of course turning up on the heel makes more sense. I don't tend to use that type of hook punch. Even my huen chui (circular or roundhouse punches) do not torque as much as you do. We do not train those strikes in my WHF Mantis training.

One last thing, I believe that in training Chinese martial arts, rooting is a fundamental aspect of generating power. All students must start their basics this way. If in the advanced levels you feel you need to diverge and find ways of generating power that more suit you, then that is a very individual change. But that difference may only work for you and not for everyone. I have seen the product of people teaching their advanced modified methods to new practitioners. The result is not the same. They themselves did not learn it that way and they were able to achive their modified method by first learning and understanding the basics. There are no shortcuts. We all must have the correct foundation from which to diverge and grow from.

Vance

[shirkers1]

We do not generate power this way. When punching or striking, the back heel generally stays on the ground and we use that contact to generate power. In fact we drive the heel into the ground, twisting the leg which then twists into the waist and out through the arm. This is how the power travels. It is from the rooting that we generate our power. The heel is like an anchor and with that anchor, I can generate more power from my waist. Almost all the power in the strike is issuing from the waist although the legs, shoulders and arms add to it. You may be too used to doing it your way and maybe I am too used to doing it mine for either to fully comprehend each other. I tried your method, I still feel more power driving my heel into the ground or rather, I feel stronger in my waist.

Also when pivoting the front foot for transitions, I also pivot on the heel and not the ball. I stay connected to the ground this way. Try this simple exercise. Stand straight up and lift your toes keeping your heel on the ground. Has your body moved up at all? Now stand straight again and lift your heels off the ground. Now has your body moved vertically? When you shift onto the balls of your feet, you are actually lifting your body off the ground. Your body weight must shift forward to the balls of your feet. When I pivot and transition, I do not want to lose contact with the floor and this is for stability and rooting. I do not find it any slower than turning on the balls of my feet, in fact, I think its faster since there is no shifting.

This is not to say that the back heel never leaves the ground. There are certainly techniques in which it does such as in the yup waan bo or even when shuffling with monkey footwork. It depends on the type of strike I am making and what kind of power I need to issue. I know something similar was said already. At least we can agree that there are different situations that call for different body mechanics.

Shirkers, if I may say, your drills with the focus mitts are strong and you show a lot of power. Because you are striking sideways, you twist your body a lot and so of course turning up on the heel makes more sense. I don't tend to use that type of hook punch. Even my huen chui (circular or roundhouse punches) do not torque as much as you do. We do not train those strikes in my WHF Mantis training.

One last thing, I believe that in training Chinese martial arts, rooting is a fundamental aspect of generating power. All students must start their basics this way. If in the advanced levels you feel you need to diverge and find ways of generating power that more suit you, then that is a very individual change. But that difference may only work for you and not for everyone. I have seen the product of people teaching their advanced modified methods to new practitioners. The result is not the same. They themselves did not learn it that way and they were able to achive their modified method by first learning and understanding the basics. There are no shortcuts. We all must have the correct foundation from which to diverge and grow from.

Vance

Thanks vance for your input.. I can totally see your point in how you generate power for most of your techniques.

On the lifting off of the ground statement.. When the heel is brought off of the ground your leg bends to accomidate and in actuality your head height stays the same... Now for you this may be weaker because you train with your heel down. For us we train with that foot up all the time so it becomes like a bear trap spring and is very powerful, enabling us to shoot on a dime and generate quick foot work feeding the power of the strike. I understand the rooting aspect for certain tactics and I gave some examples I think we agree on that. :)

Thanks for the hook compliment, I'm really not putting full power in any of those. It's something you have to feel, even at slow speeds the hands are very heavy because of the mechanics involved.

I've worked with a lot of guys that were a lot bigger than me that trained in other styles that had that flat footed mentality and that was fine I let them work with that but I slowly showed them how I move and their mechanics became refined and they started to see how they were generating more torque and power. Even their short power was getting better just by a few simple tweeks here and there. There is a time and a place for it as well as flat footed.

[Vajramusti]

Shirkers 1 :"To me flat footed is staying flat footed and not moving from that position, so I would love for you to give some examples of american boxers who fight flat footed..."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not into mantis and am not arguing pros cons of mantis but I was and always am curious about power generation issues. Hence-took a brief peak at the thread
before moving on.

Things have to be defined... both feet flat?, One foot flat? Sometimes? All the time?
Top heavy stance or some other stance? More square bodied or more sidebodied?
Are we talking form training and development, or various kinds of applications.
Answers can vary with questions.....but regarding the above request for examples---
sometimes flat footers beat ballers- sometimes the other way aroubd because power has to be usable at the right moment. But a good faith set of RELATIVE examples---
Ernire Shavers- one of the hardest heavy hitters ever- generally was MORE(relative) flat footed than his opponents. Marciano over Walcott. Foreman over most. Joe Louis over Billy Conn. Deliverable power is a somewhat different issue. Power is not the only relevant variable in MA,.

joy chaudhuri

[shirkers1]

Shirkers 1 :"To me flat footed is staying flat footed and not moving from that position, so I would love for you to give some examples of american boxers who fight flat footed..."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not into mantis and am not arguing pros cons of mantis but I was and always am curious about power generation issues. Hence-took a brief peak at the thread
before moving on.

Things have to be defined... both feet flat?, One foot flat? Sometimes? All the time?
Top heavy stance or some other stance? More square bodied or more sidebodied?
Are we talking form training and development, or various kinds of applications.
Answers can vary with questions.....but regarding the above request for examples---
sometimes flat footers beat ballers- sometimes the other way aroubd because power has to be usable at the right moment. But a good faith set of RELATIVE examples---
Ernire Shavers- one of the hardest heavy hitters ever- generally was MORE(relative) flat footed than his opponents. Marciano over Walcott. Foreman over most. Joe Louis over Billy Conn. Deliverable power is a somewhat different issue. Power is not the only relevant variable in MA,.

joy chaudhuri

Yeah some of those examples were given before and like I said generalizing certain tactics... I notice you are a wing chun person in tempe? We should hook up sometime I'm in phoenix. We can compare footwork and how power is delivered.

[Sifu Darkfist]

i can promise you that there is no western boxer with the power generation of a baji one punch simply because i have trained both and the western boxer does put a lot of body behind his punch but not nearly as mush as the WHOLE body benerated by the One Punch. also the biggest problem with the foot ending on the balls of the feet instead of firmly planted is the crushing breaking throw that will result on the off balance boxer they dont have to worry about bone crushing chinna based throws so they can get away with lunging forward with the back foot up on the ball of his foot. anyway it is impossible to settle this without proper demonstration so i will just have to leave that hang there.

[Young Mantis]

On the lifting off of the ground statement.. When the heel is brought off of the ground your leg bends to accomidate and in actuality your head height stays the same... Now for you this may be weaker because you train with your heel down. For us we train with that foot up all the time so it becomes like a bear trap spring and is very powerful, enabling us to shoot on a dime and generate quick foot work feeding the power of the strike. I understand the rooting aspect for certain tactics and I gave some examples I think we agree on that. :)

I don't think you understood the point of my example. One's body weight naturally sits on the heels. When you are standing up, your heels are in line with your body so when you lift your toes, your body weight never leaves the ground. When you lift your heels, you must transfer your weight to the balls of your feet and actually lifting your body off the ground. Yes, of course you can adjust by bending your knees and then your head is the same height. Keeping my head at the same height was not the point of the example.

Rooting the heel for stiking does not mean there is no dynamic action going on. I still feel like a loaded spring when I strike. But my spring has an anchor. One end is firmly planted so that the energy only has one direction. Sounds like you believe planting leads to slower footwork. I do study mantis. Like everyone else's mantis, we have monkey footwork. I don't think my footwork is all that slow. But I plant when I deliver a punch and I can also shuffle. I am not a boxer. I don't train those skills. Perhaps you have found something in that training that works for you. Proper Mantis training to me does not look like western boxing.

Good luck with your training.

Vance

[shirkers1]

Rooting the heel for stiking does not mean there is no dynamic action going on. I still feel like a loaded spring when I strike. But my spring has an anchor. One end is firmly planted so that the energy only has one direction. Sounds like you believe planting leads to slower footwork. I do study mantis. Like everyone else's mantis, we have monkey footwork. I don't think my footwork is all that slow. But I plant when I deliver a punch and I can also shuffle. I am not a boxer. I don't train those skills. Perhaps you have found something in that training that works for you. Proper Mantis training to me does not look like western boxing.

Good luck with your training.

Vance

I'll say partially leaves you immobile, if you have a good counter striker and you're planted too firmly when striking you're going to get hit before you can move because you're so rooted while striking. It's the concept of mantis to constantly attack that is emphisized by using these striking mechanics, being too rooted limits you in your striking I feel. So although you see western boxing instead of mantis, I see utilizing western boxing mechanics to mantis concepts when fighting. Once again it's generalized and not used for all mantis tactics.

I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right. I'm just giving my point and why I feel the way I do about it. :D

[Young Mantis]

That's alright, I am not trying to convince you otherwise or that I am right and you are wrong either. Its just a discussion. I am not rooted 100% of the time and techniques like gwun lau sau in yub waan bo have the heel up.

[EarthDragon]

Something to ponder and contemplate .............
1.how much power is generated and how much is borrowed
2. how much of that is speed and how much is simply mass
3. what percent of your body weight is used when generating power
4. is it possible for a 180 pound man to generate more than 180 psi
5. is it muscle mass, ligament losening or proper bone alignment that effects the impact.

please comment....

[shirkers1]

Something to ponder and contemplate .............
1.how much power is generated and how much is borrowed
2. how much of that is speed and how much is simply mass
3. what percent of your body weight is used when generating power
4. is it possible for a 180 pound man to generate more than 180 psi
5. is it muscle mass, ligament losening or proper bone alignment that effects the impact.

please comment....

1. could you please go into detail on the question? Do you mean how much power is borrowed from the opponent. ie pulling into a punch? Or do you mean borrowed from another part of your body from mechanics?
2. Speed is very important, added to mass proper mechanics will make the strike even more powerful. Looking at my vids I'm not hitting with full speed or power, yet if you look at trents shoulders you see his upper shoulders jaring back I wish there was sound too because that would help... Those are heavy hits, a jab with the footwork becomes like a normal persons wind up punch.
3. Depending on the strike, if used right almost all of your body weight... because you are shooting and using every inch of your body mechanically combined with speed to strike. That is why I say a big guy who utilizes this method will wreck shop.
4. Yes, I am 180lbs and I can hit like a cannon. I've never actually had my punches tested. Unless the punching machines in the bars count. ;) That's a whole story in and of itself. :D Big guys don't like it when the skinny guy gets up there and hits twice as hard..
5. All of it, depending on the strike being used. Different methods of power generation is needed. Huen choi for instance we use more of a whipping with the waist out through the arms and is very loose. Like a ball and chain.

[Sifu Darkfist]

Something to ponder and contemplate .............
1.how much power is generated and how much is borrowed
2. how much of that is speed and how much is simply mass
3. what percent of your body weight is used when generating power
4. is it possible for a 180 pound man to generate more than 180 psi
5. is it muscle mass, ligament losening or proper bone alignment that effects the impact.

please comment....
1 if you are a true believer in fajing and chi there is an equal amount borrowed from the earth as the power generated by your strike
2. A martial artist should not separate these two and should use both equally in oder to maintain proper balance in motion and proper concentration of power during transference to the target.
3. In our Baji we are taught to use all the body available, for example if your body is free to move you use all of your weight. If you are grappling you use all the weight that is free. However this must be timed properly in order to properly transfer the energy to the target.
4. get up on a scale and look at your weight. Now allow your legs to collapse for a second and regain strength as get low abruptly by pressing hard with your quads. Notice the tremendous increase in your weight. If you use this principle in downward fajing or strikes your power becomes doubled or even more if you are very good. Now apply this to a some backed into a low mantis position if this person moves forward and up they have applied much of the same technique of exponential power generation.

[K.Brazier]

Hi Mike,
For your #1 you talking 'bout borrowing the opponent's power right?

Kevin

[EarthDragon]

Hi kevin,
actully I was referring to borrowing the earth's power. Dark fist hit on exactly what I was throwing out there.
I was fortunate enough to meet with a man named Shu Ming and he demonstrated the incredible power that one can borrow from the earth when used properly. he lined up 5 men and had them place thier hands on each others shoulders and while each was in contact with the other he pulled qi from the ground transferred it through all 4 men and knocked the 5th man off his feet with what looked like electricity. ie Jing,

while it is true body mechanics play a huge role in this transference, one cannot mistake it is also from gravtational magnetics. It was explained to me that one can act like a conductor sort to speak while not personally having this power you can utilize it when properly aligned with the universe. While some might be skeptical others will know first hand what i am speaking about.
I am a firm believer in qi, jing, shen. when these are inline there seems to unlimit possiblities.

[shirkers1]

Hi kevin,
actully I was referring to borrowing the earth's power. Dark fist hit on exactly what I was throwing out there.
I was fortunate enough to meet with a man named Shu Ming and he demonstrated the incredible power that one can borrow from the earth when used properly. he lined up 5 men and had them place thier hands on each others shoulders and while each was in contact with the other he pulled qi from the ground transferred it through all 4 men and knocked the 5th man off his feet with what looked like electricity. ie Jing,

while it is true body mechanics play a huge role in this transference, one cannot mistake it is also from gravtational magnetics. It was explained to me that one can act like a conductor sort to speak while not personally having this power you can utilize it when properly aligned with the universe. While some might be skeptical others will know first hand what i am speaking about.
I am a firm believer in qi, jing, shen. when these are inline there seems to unlimit possiblities.

but was he on his toes or flat footed? :rolleyes: :D

Aligned with the universe and magnetic pulls..? So when do you have time to do all of this during a fight? I know that some call it qi or jing, I use scientific terms or lamen terms like the force that is generated from a technique. So I can go with that, it's another term for what you can explain with another term... But when you start talking about aligning with the universe and stuff I get queezy, this is why people think we're a bunch of pajama wearing whackos...

[EarthDragon]

shirkers, flat footed always, untill the delivery of a punch then you rotate upwards on the ball of the foot. but the more contact you have with the ground the better.

Your pajama comment is from those who are limited in thier knowledge and speak simply out of ingnorance. So without understanding they make fun of it. human nature... these are the people that dont beleive in qi, yet somehow they still seem to exsist.. stange isnt it??? how could one deny qi yet breath , talk and walk........hmmmmmmmmmm


a little elaboration. the deeper our understanding becomes , the more we realize.

when you ask an unexperienced person /fighter where the power from a punch comes from they might say the shoulder.

a little more experienced might say the waist.

the more experienced person might say the foot.

yet the most experienced person may say the ground.

while these are all true, where is the source in which is comes from? .........................the ground, then up through the foot, then spirials around the waist, circles out from the shoulder, then shoots out through the hand.

to understand how these mechanics work it is helpful to understand newtonian physics. there is it best expalined on using the earth energies..

another great example is for aeronatics. (sp?) we have always used vessels that use earth's fossil fuels to propel them against gravity, the universal energy.

for years this was as far as our knowledge had lead us to understand space travel.
but lately they have realized that you can use the magnetics of earth and space to propel you with that energy instead of going against it.

[shirkers1]

I understand where you’re coming from and what you’re trying to say. But I think you’re taking it a step or two too far. To say that the fuel in the engine that provides combustion so that the plane can be propelled is like saying the steak that fueled my muscles to propel the technique. The steak didn’t propel the technique, the execution of mechanics that are involved did. If you want to get technical than in the big picture sure the steak had something to do with it, and yes you can even trace it back to the cow that ate the grass from the earth. So let’s forget about all that round about stuff and start with the ground or earth. That is where the power starts, the feet rooting or pushing through the legs etc. I know you are saying that we once thought that one thing was the only way to generate power, now we know we can use other means to do this. But we aren’t floating around in space or in a plane.

The mechanics are where your thoughts should lay; not being in tune with the magnetic pulls of the earth etc. Mechanics trained is all you have time for in a combat situation, not the internal forces aligned with the universe. Don’t worry about the minute details of atoms etc that are involved in the big picture. Once again depending on the technique being utilized, whether dropping your weight etc it’s all mechanics and physics. I’m no jedi and I don’t think there are too many jedi’s floating around out there shooting beams of chi, accept for Jake maybe.

[EarthDragon]

LOL so jake IS the true jedi....... I have heard this....

I understand where your coming from, and I DO get out there from time to time, but I try to explore every aspect of something I spent so long learning and keep an open mind.

My eyes have been opened to what I have always thought of as "couldnt be true".

This happened when I met my qigong teacher Yen Chu Feng
her art jin gon tzu li gong qigong.
It invloves shooting qi. unless you have heard of this or experienced it it might be hard for the average american to understand.

She uses her finger tips to stimulate and cirlce your own Wei Qi and Nei Qi this can be done for healing purposes , and for martial but the medical is far stronger. I have video of people rolling around on the floor with herniatted disks and degenerative vertabre.


She does things like shrink tumors , cures cancer, AIDS, Bells palsy and various other diseases. I have a pic on my website of me shoving a 9 Inch steel wire through my quatracpet muscle with absoluty no pain nor blood shed, which is medically impossibe to show her level of skill.
My wife is a cardiologist and is intrigued with her skills and found it impossible that I was able to insert this wire in my without 1 drop of blood. ....and she was there.
So I must say that the skill level of a true qigong master does things which is hard to understand but again that is due to our limited knowledge.

When accupuncure was fist introduced in the US doctors called it hocus pocus B.S and insisted it did not work, yet in china they have been doing it for over 4,000 years the same goes for chiropractic techniques. So please dont count out things just beucse you havent experienced them.

have you ever seen a spirit or a ghost?????? do you think they do not exsist?

[shirkers1]

Well I never said I didn’t believe or that I’ve never seen these things happen. What I’m saying is that I call it something else, qi jing I use simpler terms to describe what’s happening. As for power generation, mechanics I feel in a combat situation are more important than becoming one with the universe. :D

Whether they happen or not or whether I believe in them or not doesn’t really matter in context to the idea of power generation. The bigger picture doesn’t have to be so complicated when you can simply break it down to combat application.

When we’re talking about power generation in application, I think it’s too much to delve into that stuff so deeply. What your mind controls mechanically is more important in power generation combat wise than the examples you’ve given. You can’t meditate on a punch when delivering it in a combat situation. You’re opponent isn’t going to stand by and let you poke a pressure point with a needle allowing you to over come him. Or your opponent isn’t going to allow you to poke a pressure point to block all pain and bleeding so when you get hit you won’t suffer any damage. This stuff may work in a staged environment but how can it apply to combat? I guess these are questions for another thread maybe?

[Sifu Darkfist]

I understand your skepticism when it comes to combat i have faced far to many scraps myself and have suffered for them.
However i must say that this is where training comes in and a little natural talent of which i am sure you have (or else i doubt your martial knowledge would have you in this forum. If a student of combat such as myself gets the punch right and learns the power of a proper strike ie. timing with body mechanics, mind, and internal power he will rarley punch without it. It becomes part of your ability just as a step does to an infant once you have learned to strike this way your body only strikes this way with the exception of a bad strike that can happen at any level at any time. My Master always says "if you punch the same one hundred times a day it becomes part of you, if your job is combat you punch a thousand times a day"I dont know any other way to strike. does this make me supernatural absolutely not, does it make me victorious under any and all conditions absolutely not. In combat there are far too many variables to contend with that have no connection to your personal effort. who gets the element of suprise for example? If a man jumps on me and attempts to mount me and i am coherent enough to stab his kidney during the contact with my tiny little knife he will bleed out in less than minutes and will get off of you almost instantly because of the dread of certain death. If i get done with class and a stranger approaches me in the pitch black parking lot my hand is already on my glock, however if the stranger sits in a tree 300 yards away with a 308, my 45 cal. glock might as well be a stone. Does this take away the fact that the 45 will drop any man if loaded with the proper cartridge? so because a man might be stalking me with a 308 does this mean i should toss out my 45? or load it with inferior cartridges because what the hell the hollow points or ball ammo who cares combats too fast? eVERY MAN SHOULD WORK ON HIS A GAME ALL THE TIME; whether it means a one punch an eye gouge a groin shot or as myself putting down the sword and spending weapons training time on the weapons of the day (Gaston Glocks contribution) if we are preparing for street combat.

[shirkers1]

I was thinking on this while I was showering (you know who you are stop thinking about my ass) and I agree with what you are saying about being a part of you. Your internal training, breathing, mind controling your pain and movements, etc. Of coarse all of these things happen when you train constantly and in a combat situation (ie street fight, not all of us are in gun fights on a daily basis). So when I hear examples of these cats shooting chi balls with their finger through 5 guys knocking down the 6th one it's not skepticism per say it's just come on, what does that have to do with fighting? You're not going to have all of your attackers stand in a row while you meditate and build up your chi to blast through these guys. To me that's not what chi is, it's just mind controling the body and the breathing etc enhancing your physical attributes for martial skill. I'm not saying that this stuff isn't a factual thing, but I do think in terms of power generation it's a little over board.

[EarthDragon]

shirkers,
I totally understand where you are comming from, but please realize that "combat" that you speak of is the most basic part of martial arts..... just a sliver of the pie sort to speak.

Dont get me wrong I was a true fighter in my youth through and through,and in lots of fights even gangs and bounced for 11 years. This is why most people start martial arts and begin the long journey in the first place.
but as we mature in age our focus becomes placed on other aspects like the internal, caligraphy, religion or medicinal

So alot ot times when I speak Iam no longer taking about combat or fighting and casuing harm to another individual, but rather to improve myself and my understanding.

I do have students that walk into my school taking martial arts to learn how to fight but they leave learning how not to.

[shirkers1]

shirkers,
I totally understand where you are comming from, but please realize that "combat" that you speak of is the most basic part of martial arts..... just a sliver of the pie sort to speak.

Dont get me wrong I was a true fighter in my youth through and through,and in lots of fights even gangs and bounced for 11 years. This is why most people start martial arts and begin the long journey in the first place.
but as we mature in age our focus becomes placed on other aspects like the internal, caligraphy, religion or medicinal

So alot ot times when I speak Iam no longer taking about combat or fighting and casuing harm to another individual, but rather to improve myself and my understanding.

I do have students that walk into my school taking martial arts to learn how to fight but they leave learning how not to.

Understood. :D I was just trying to compare the two to the topic which was power generation technically when delivering a tactic. There is a need for both in the bigger picture for sure.