Old Sifu's Vs Younger Sifu's Pro's & Cons

[hskwarrior]

Sounds like a good idea to start this thread if no one else will.

In many past posts i have made mention that certain masters out there have learned from their sifu's when their sifu was old, and that others learned from a younger sifu. Well, in my POV (point of view) there are pro's and con's in learning from both.

Old Sifu--Pro's:

Learning from an old sifu you get to benefit from all of his years of experience and knowledge. a younger one still has many years to gain this experience.

Con's: Learning from an old sifu even if he was a tough guy back in the day, most likely if he is in his late 60's or 70's he will most likely turn away from violence and teach for health. More willing to obey all laws and concerned with being sued, or even being hurt during training since it takes time for older folks to heal.

Young Sifu's -- Pro's:

one of the benefits to learning from a younger sifu is that if you wanted to learn to effectively defend yourself, the younger sifu is more likely to brush aside the laws of the land to prepare his students for very extreme situations.

For example, when i was in high school (my sifu was in his late 30's) i got cheap shotted in the hall way by a wannabe gangster martial artist. when my sifu found out he suggested i run up from behind him and ram his head into the locker a good 20-30 times to teach him a lesson.

at this point of his life (My Sifu's) i am not sure he would suggest the same thing to another person. but i was able to train under him when he had that mindset and that escalated my training to new levels.

Con's:

not enogh experience as the older masters.


however, i have to get going for now and would like to see how this turns out and read your opinions on the pro's and con's of learning from either of the two.


hsk

[Judge Pen]

Regarding laws of the land:

In my perspective, the respect for law or the concern for being sued shouldn't matter when training to defend oneself (whether you are being taught from an old or a young sifu). The ability to properly defend yourself should be taught without this concern. A responsible sifu may also address the ramifications of defending yourself efficiently, and the circumstances when another course of action may be more appropriate, but if the decision to use your training has been made, it needs to be taught to be carried out quickly, efficiently and, if need be, brutally.

Why should the age of the sifu matter in this regard?

[Sow Choy]

Good thread...

If you're talking of fighting... Old sifus can be great coaches... they need to get inside your head and make you stronger... Similar to the movie "Rocky" Man I loved Mickey, what a great coach... He would do whatever it takes to get the right outcome...

I wish more sifus were like that... At a sparring match in a tournament I was in my 1st fight and feeling tired, winded since I was waiting around all day... And was starting to lose focus, so my dad who is about 65 at the time comes running down the stairs yelling at me... kick that m***f**** a***, drive him out the F***** ring!!! Blah blah blah... But thats all I needed... and won every fight after with him keeping me focused...

Thats why what we do and what athletes do is very similar, we push ourselves with the help of others to see how far we can take it...

But with forms and movements, especially dynamic type movements... An older sifu who is still doin it... The students most likely will copy the movements of the old sifu... Unlike other sports like gymnastics.. there are too many styles and too many ways to the technique correctly... know what I am sayin...? Even here many say there movements are'nt correct or are different, etc...

So an older sifu pulls more weight usually... Unless of course he has some students who are younger that help him teach... Especially ones with experience... But they may still wanna follow the old sifu's moves... With me and my sifu, there are so many times I come to school and people say master Li told me to follow you for this form, move, weapon, etc...

So really its the teachers responsibility... I try not to let students do movements in a bad manner, and I protect them from my own personal opinions... But many sifu do not think the people who open their own schools are gonna do that... So they may not be putting all their effort into them... That is another reason why we have some real bad kung fu out there...

All too often different masters will have students go off as a sifu and tell me that their kung fu is "so-so", but that is what the student wants to do... Just like if you have kids... You cant control them...

Joe

[Mulong]

It is interesting, must of you assumed that a Shifu, who reaches the age of 70’s isn’t as active as someone in his 40’s? Indeed, some aren't, but, I have been fortunate to have studied under two Shifu in the United States, who are in the 70’s, which possess remarkable energy (jin/ging). Especially, one of them can give any young pup a good lesson; especially that he will go for the kill, not a game of tag…

Actually, if you look at mainland, you will see a few Shifu in their golden ages, that are still outstanding…

Hey, look a Chan Shifu; still have a killer pubu…

[hskwarrior]

yes, i agree with joe and his Mickey analogy. i appreciate those types of sifu. my sifu for one is in his 60's and still very active and agile. so he can show you the proper way, proper force, he's not suffering from arthritis. he can still jump kick and stuff like that.

But there are the old ones who are just barely surviving but still teach, but just can't show you the moves the way he wants to so he asks the senior of the school to show you how to do them. Mentally, an old sifu has a vast amount of knowledge. but a younger one, more vivrant, and able to demonstrate fast, aggressive techniques. some people learn more visually and need to witness that younger more lively sifu move so they can get a better understanding on how to properly execute effective techniques.

For example, if i bought a tape of the Elderly Joe Keit (who is now in his late 60's) performing Sup Gee and is doing the set rather slowly and this is the first time i have ever seen the Elderly Joe Keit's gung fu before, than naturally i am going to think that that is how the set is supposed to be done. but if i saw the Younger Joe Keit in his hayday and he was fast, strong, and powerful then that is how i would think his gung fu should be performed.

no, it's not fair to say all older sifu have lost some luster to their gung fu, but there are some that just are not what they used to be, and in certain ones it can be seen.

hsk

[Mulong]

Paraphrasing a quote I once read…

An instructor is at the peak of the system, but a Master, gives you life!

[Yum Cha]

I think you could say a younger Sifu has more vitality, can demonstrat things more agressively, but that being said, by the time a Sifu comes to his golden years, his prize students, the Sifu's of the next generation, the instructors, seniors, whatever, are filling that void, and teaching the active stuff with vigor.

I studied under an old Sifu and got foundation training that was incredible, but learning under a younger sifu, I got the "secret sauce" to pour on top. :D

And I think it is different for someone who is studying a few years to someone who has built a lifelong committment to a Pai.

[David Jamieson]

young sifu to me is 60 and under. This are the ones who can still demonstrate the art effectively.

old sifus to me are 60 and older and they are the ones who can help you refine because they themselves have that refinement.

young sifu are raw diamonds, old sifu are polished, both are diamonds and possess teh proeprties of the diamond, but what a difference when it is refined. :p

It really really helps if what they are giving is genuine and authentic.

Drawbacks are more with young sifu as they're still concerned with a lot of things that are irrelevant to the propogation of the art. Not all, but definitely the majority. That's just human nature. Age does bring wisdom and those who are old are less concerned with the superfluous and more concerned with the keeping of the art.

just my opinion

[Sow Choy]

ya know...

this topic is similar to the question which style is better?... the answer is within the indidvidual... I have seen some very poor kung fu done by older masters, but also some excellent kung fu by older masters as well...

Maybe when they were younger they weren't so great either??? George Carlin made that joke that not all old people are idiots, most older people that are idiots were not so bright when they were young...lol

But with concerns over art, sometimes older masters are so arrogant and quick to criticize others without lookin at themselves... So again... individuals are different and each situation is different...

I recently had a 60 yr old master kick the crap out of us and really add to our full-contact regimen... So I am always open to new ideas from anyone, and never underestimate someone...

With forms I would rather learn from someone who is capable of expressing the form in an incredible or a way that makes you impressed... But even with forms it is prefrence... We can be quick to judge people by their forms even though its the easiest way...

I have seen some masters who are teaching and I cant believe what I am seeing... And even worse there are so many people following without questioning... maybe out of respect... who knows, and these are usually the ones who love to brag about themselves their masters, blah blah blah... My sifu use to say... let your kung fu do the talking...

Too much talking goes on in kung fu it seems... I would rather be sweating and getting trained not lectured, seems many here are like that too... Paragraphs of text with not much depth, like reading a brochure... but oh well.... Train on!!!

Peace,

Joe

PS
David, How u been? hope all is well up there...

[hskwarrior]

have i done that? is that damm joe talking about me?! no, he couldn't be talking about me! :mad:

Do i really write "paragraphs" of sheet weet no depth? :confused:


;)


I guess that damm joe trains too much, he doesn't call, email, write, send food, flip me off,........i mean damm joe......what happuned? :confused:



frank
:p