8 Step Mantis & 7 Star Mantis

[blackmantis]

Hello all,

I have been told that while the two styles do have things in common, and even have similar forms (Lipiquan- although I understand there are different versions...) they are fundamentally different.

I would like to know if anyone can elaborate on the differences between these two schools of mantis? I am told they are different by essence...?


Many thanks,

S

[LingChuanPai]

BlackMantis,
I'm not an authority or anything. Someone let me know if I wrong, but, 8 Step has other style elements in it. When Jiang Hua Long was developing this style, he incorperated Ba Gua, Hsing I, and Tong Bei into this new system. This new style of tanglang was later called Ba Bu Tang Lang (8-Step Praying Mantis) because its basics has eight postures (Ba Shi) and eight moving steps (Ba Xing Bu).
I love this style of tang lang and hope to study it in the near future.
As for Seven star im not sure, I never studied this style of mantis. I would suppose that 8-step is essentially a soft style or softer than that of the Qi Xing variety. From what I understand 7 * is a hard style of mantis.
Like I said I may be wrong, so if I am, let me know.
LCP :D

[NorthstarMantis]

Hello all, noob to this place!
I found the Tongbei and Xingyi influence very obvious in what little 8step I`ve learned, lots of big swinging arm movements like the tongbei I`ve seen, big forearm strikes and LiPi even has a Pi quan in it:D
The footwork in LiPi is very similar to alot of Xingyi. Good stuff, I`ll be getting Xiao Fan Che soon and cant wait!!

[Forkintheroad]

Everything sounded correct as far as the Hsing-I, Ba-Gua, and Tong Bei influences, the only comment I would question would be that 8 Step is a softer art than 7*. I've never had any hands on experience with 7* (only the video's I've seen online), but based on that I don't think I would state 8 step is softer (or harder). There are internal elements through out, but the forms seem to have a stomping feeling that forces you to complete the movements, and not have them fall into the next. You can hear the stomping and dragging footwork when the forms are being practiced, in the end 8 step still has it's base in Plum Blossom Mantis, which I believe is concidered an external style. On a side note has anyone researched wheather or not the Hsing-I, Ba-Gua, or Tong-Bei Masters ever passed their 8 step on, after combining skills with Jiang Hua Long?

[LingChuanPai]

Hey man,
I havent heard any other people refering their lineage to anyone else except Jiang Hua Long. If you find out let me know. Maybe it was like the Bill Gates deal or somethin :) j/k'n
LCP :D

[NorthstarMantis]

Didn`t Wei Hsiao Tang add elementes from Wu Taiji that he learned from Wu Jianquan?

[blackmantis]

In my situation I am learning Babu Tanglang. I will then learn Meihua Tanglang and then Qixing Tanglang. After becoming competant in these styles I will learn Baji or Bagua depending on my choice.

Does this order reveal anything about the nature of these styles?

S

[Sifu Darkfist]

They understanding i was given through my master is that the most visible difference in the style is the size of the movements and the distance between hands and feet. A true Ba BU Mantis practitioner has larger more definitive moves with greater emphasis on power and strength. XIXING has a much smaller and faster approach with some power but far more emphasis on speed and accuracy.
This was explained to me under the understanding that Ba Bu eliminates movements in order to achieve effeciency. OF course all the other things said in this thread remain true such as the Bagua Influence however the reason for the creation of the style as i understand was to make movements easier and more definitive for the founder who was stronger and a bit bigger in build (hieght and muscle) instead of little and really fast. To sum it up the styles can be used by anyone, however it is easier for the taller person to perform ba bu because of the elimination of extra movements by the founder. Or at least this is what i was taught. I am working on the research of these histories for myself, in light of the verbal nature in chinese boxing history.

[Willow Palm]

I'm new to the 7 Star system, only a couple of years, but I like it a lot. The movements are simple, fast, and applicable. Early forms require incessant rooting as you move from stance to stance with quick, powerful attacks. As you progress I've noticed the foot movements are lighter, faster, but just as powerful as the early rooting. The attacks are still very much Mantis but with a more internal emphasis. Basically as you learn the techniques in each form the exagerations are no longer needed as training tools. Hope that helps some.



__________________________________________________ _______________
The master walks in the garden and sees his student meditating on a patio. "What are you doing," he ask. " I'm trying to become buddha," the student responds. The master nods and sits next to him and scraps a rock over the patio. "What are you doing," the student questions. "I'm making a mirror," the master says. "That's not how you make a mirror," the student exclaimed. "That's not how you become buddha," responds the master. -Chaung-Tzu-

Warren

[K.Brazier]

Hi Black M,


<<I have been told that while the two styles do have things in common, and even have similar forms (Lipiquan- although I understand there are different versions...)>>

Lipi was taught by GM Wei only. If it is contained in any 7* curriculum it is directly through him.

Kevin

[mantid1]

Darkfist

You stated that some of the 8 step forms have had some moves removed to be more effcient. Does the 8 step forms have a ling side?

Maybe that is the case. It may seem like some of the moves are missing when you do the solo set because there is a ling side to it.

I have come accross this in other styles. It seems like there may be something missing untill you find out there is another side to it.

I have aslo seen styles have a little different version of the solo side compared the the same form done when the other side is applied.

I think this may be how some masters "hold back". By not teaching the other side of a form.

Some things that do not make sense while doing a solo set becomes very clear when how to apply it with the fighting side.

Just a thought

[Sifu Darkfist]

actually i should have made myself more specific and clear. not removed from forms just shortened and less flowery esp in the lipi or zai yao. just seems to get to the point very quickly with greater emphasis on power. also the foot work seems to be more direct. This is not to take away from xixing in fact i am more able to perform xixing movements due to my incredibly small stature to me it is second nature but. lol, however i have managed to bulk up a little to give my baji more mass to throw at the target. Generally it is harder for a large male to move with comparable speed in xixing whereas he can move comfortably wuickly in ba bu thats what i was taught and to be honest this has been my observation as well. good point on the other side though. thanks

[EarthDragon]

to eleborate on darkfist's post. I am 6'2 232lbs and have an easier time moving in the 8 step flavor.
I also think alot of differeneces have to do with the footwork, while 7* has effective footowork, I dont think I have seen any other style better than than 8 step with more effecient movments..........other then of course bagua.

I do enjoy seeing the different styles performed and like to be able to see he differences and flavors of each style. I have purchased a great DVD called dragons of the orient and I think its just a great vid, and they have some great footage of mantis, eagle and monkey players. has anyone else seen this vid?

[Mighty Mungbean]

I too am on the heavy weight side. 6'2" and 215 lbs. I find the eight step footwork to fit in well with my frame and movement propensities. I was told the main difference between eight step and other mantid forms was the replacement of monkey style footwork with bagua steps. As a beginning student of bagua I certainly see the evidence. I see examples of both movement styles in the eight step. For me taiji has been an excellent primer for 8 step as I also see many similarities in the way they move and generate power. From my limited experience I would have to agree with the claim the 8 Step uses simpified movements. 7* at any rate seems to be a little more elaborate, both in the hands and feet. Which is not to say that one is superior to the other...just different.

I'm also familiar with _Dragons_of_the_Orient_. It's a great example of Chinese martial arts covering both modern wushu and some more traditional looking arts. I'm particularly fond of the guy doing duck style and the qigong guy pulling the truck with six or eight people in it using the skin on his forearm (truck tied to skewer pierced through his forearm).

Dave