Are modern business practices selling out TMA?

[SPJ]

With the arrivals of the internet, dvd player, digital cam and camcorder etc, there are websites "teaching" students with movies, picture, instructions on line at a distance.

It is called distance or on line "learning" of MA.

The teachers and schools are churning out instruction DVD's or vcd's.

These "tools" are all good for general info and reference.

Are these trends helping MA students or just disservices and damaging in the long run?

There are also schools giving out belts, ranks and "certifications" at very short time of training.

This is "good"?

What do you think about these?

:D

[SPJ]

Since the DVD's of MA are usually expensive, my brother told me that there are also the businesses of MA DVD rentals.

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:confused:

[SPJ]

The distance learning sites usually cite the convenient hours and no need to travel a long way to a school, or just no schools around, and also you may "prelearn" a lot of styles before you make a decision which style you prefer etc

AS the SELLING POINTS!

:confused:

[Monkeyboy13]

I think in a lot of ways the video craze is causing (if not the selling out of) the dilution of MA. Jimmy X can buy (or rent, or burn, etc.) a dvd of Master Y, and then learn from this. He then can say his lineage is traceable back to Great Grandmaster Z, and he wouldn't be lying. He may never have met any of his kung fu brothers, or indeed his own sifu, but truthfully he did learn from him.
However, even if the DVD Jimmy has taught application (and with this it's usually one simple application), none of the nuances are covered. Basically Jimmy learned how to dance.
Jimmy then opens a school, and teaches his watered down version of the system, and then his students get less than even what he got in some cases.

I think videos are a great tool, AFTER you have learned what it is that's on the tape. It's a reference point. Nothing else.

Peace, Steve

[David Jamieson]

Technology has changed the face of learning pretty much anything from cooking, to accounting to any numbert of forms of exercise.

Kungfu seems to fall into a "precious" category even when it's not learned from video. i can site numerous examples of people who would say "that's bogus, because sifu x never learned that from sifu y but instead learned it from a 3rd generation student of sifu L" and so on.

Also, I've noticed that if someone has a poor performance on a given day with a given style of martial art, "they don't have the real lesson" and so on.

Or in other examples, when people see unfamiliar arts, they tend to negatively pick them apart and cast judgement on them based only on what they've seen or heard and not on what they've actually experienced.

Now if spreading the teachings of a style through new delivery methods such as the mentioned technology, then why do so many "masters" do it?

Also, there are a few examples of people who learn from dvd and can actually perform the sets quite well if not flawlessly. Additionally, there are people who cannot do this, but then there are a lot of people out tehre with Kathy smith bun burn tapes gathering dust in the closet and they never did figure out how to do those tricep exercises properly. :p

Visual learning is not everyone's style and so videos and dvd's aren't for everyone. But lets say practitioner "x" who has studied for years learns something from a book or a tape and with his foundational knowledge makes it work both in form and function, is his ability invalid because he didn't learn from the teacher directly?

Finally, there are always gonna be pseudo frauds in the martial arts world. The whole scene is packed with em. You've seen em, the out of shape poor performing dudes in the 17th century court robes :p

So long as their is no standardization, there will be a factor of marginalization that won't go away. And when there is standardization, there is push back from those groups that cannot or will not meet those standards.

Anyway, video is fine so long as one is mindful in their practice at every step. It also helps if the teacher is a good teacher and can successfully transmit in this medium.

But for beginners, maybe a year or so at the local cc getting some actual basics in will make all the difference in the world. Bad basics shows as bad advanced practice. Good basics gives you the ability to learn from almost anything. Knowledge is cumulative afterall, it doesn't stop when you leave a school, move on in life or teacher dies or some such other thing. It is continual so long as there is the fire in the learner and the eagerness to continue to grow in the given area of study.

[SPJ]

Well said.

The training of basic skills with teachers holds the keys to advance in any style.

Without the basic skills, the understanding of any style is only superfluous or "skin deep" or skin shallow.

The basic skills are the backbones to appreciate a style.

Some skills have to be learned with teachers and beyond the look and see.

If there is no shen or spirits, then everything is only paper flower fist or embroidery leg.

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[Royal Dragon]

I have done alot of book, and video learning. What I have found is that you often get "insite" that you would not otherwise get from a teacher. For this reason, I recomend doing both when possible.

I really don't attach myself to the lineage from those sources though. I belivee books are open to too much self interpertation, so "My" version of anything worked out of a book, or video is technically "My" version. Because of that, all else considered, I am the beginning of a new lineage in those areas. I tell people that they are learning the results of my research of the over all style, not a single, or specific lineage.

[David Jamieson]

chris- your point of attaching to lineage is a good one.

I think that people who feel that need to connect to someone without the fear of rejection is based on innate social skills problems in that person to begin with.

You'll find that sort of behaviour in all walks of life these days. Some sifu come from disfunctional families and really nee to belong to something, but they also fear being rejected by that thing which they wish to belong.

I know it's a little off topic, but not entirely, because it does speak a little to those sifu out there who make filial attachment to other sifu where there isn't any.

This is where dvd's on buddhism and self confidence would help those types of folks :p

[SPJ]

OT:

Lineage has at least 2 functions.

1. The closed door students will bear responsibility to pass on whatever styles they inherited in the family or the school.

2. School associations give you a sense of a "big" family. Sort of like alumni.

My teacher's other students are my brothers. Even though we never met. My Kung Fu brothers have more students. I saw them performed in events. At the bottom of my heart, I said WOW all these came from my teacher. It is passing on.

And yes, as pointed out earlier in the thread.

Each practitioner is different and may eventually "absorb" and modify the styles into each own characteristics.

That is why you may have so many variations even within the same style.

If it is so "different", it may gain a new name.

So lineages are about associations and grouping people.

My studies vary and yet most of my learning is from a certain school. I will be associated with the school and called teacher A line people.

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[neit]

i'd be more likely to purchase a kung fu video out of general interest rather than instruction. usually i can watch demos of different forms(usually portions) on internet for free though.