? Chinese short staff

[Royal Dragon]

Do the Chinese have a short staff similar to use as an escrima stick?

[Indestructible]

In preying mantis we practice 3/4 stick which is longer than most escrima sticks but shorter than a traditional staff. Maybe 3 1/2 feet long.

[SPJ]

Yes. The short staff is a bit longer.

When you change hands to hold the ends or Huan Ba, you may use it like a long staff. You have to slide your hands along the staff or Hua Ba so that your hands change to hold the other end.

There are many names for it.

Tiger tail whip Hu Wei Bian.

etc.

[Royal Dragon]

Hi,
Thanks for the reply. I am specifically curious if there is a short staff that is the length of the arm from shoulder to finger tip.

I know Wah Lam guys have the "Fatal Flute". That seems to be the only Chinese short stick I have ever seen.

[monkeyfoot]

In the classic 'shaolin invincible sticks' the girl uses a pair of short sticks. Looks very hard to learn in places.

[Royal Dragon]

I'm not really concerned with movies and such, I'm more interested in short sicks from legit lineages.

[Royal Dragon]

A short stick seems like it would be such a natural weapon, I have allways been suprised that you don't see them commonly in the Chinese arts across the board.

[neit]

i'd imagine that anyone skilled in other chinese short weapons(sword, saber,umbrella,cane...) might be pretty handy with a stick. and the fact that the weopn is often practiced single rather than paired appeals to me.

[Royal Dragon]

I was thinking that too, but still, fundementally you would think a short stick would be very common in Chinese arts due to it's natural simplicity. Yet you still don't see much of it.

[SPJ]

Long staves are present in many styles.

There are also short or medium staff and 3 section staff.

I only know some styles.

There are Tai Tzu short staff, Wu Dang short staff, Zhao Bao Tai Chi medium staff etc.

We started with long staff practices first. The short staff has a lot of switching hand holding positions. You also combine with punches, grabs, kicks, throw and tripping to fall more than the long staff.

Have fun.

:D

[Shaolin Dude]

I know a traditional short staff form. it looks like a northern shaolin form. my previous sifu didn't really tell us much about it.

[monkeyfoot]

Ah sorry I misunderstood what you was getting at, I thought you just wanted some things that show the staff being used.

I know that some taiji styles have taught the traditional Taiji short stick. I also found a website on xingyiquan. It mentioned that the short stick also called the thirteen seizes stick (shi san ba gun) is used as one of there weapons.

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/xyxy/guoweihanbis.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_Claw_Kung_Fu#Modern_masters

this also mentions it as their lineages weapon.

craig

[Royal Dragon]

I think the short stick in these styles is still longer than arm length though. The short stick I have seen in Tai Tzu is more like waist high. It's not really that short.

[monkeyfoot]

Just came across this video. Quite a nice little history about the flute.

http://www.internalkungfu.ca/download4.wmv

Craig

[gwa sow]

tai shing pek kwar, i recently learned double metal rods (or whip??) from sifu Chow Keurng. not really wooden staffs but escrima stick could be used.

[monkeyfoot]

I was thinking that actually. The rods are pretty much the same length as an escrima stick.

one thing though. The form with the rods surely has been created for a pair of rods weighing 5kg each, not for lightweight sticks? You would work differently with a weapon that is heavy as oppose to light weight sticks.

just a thought
craig

[Indestructible]

Just came across this video. Quite a nice little history about the flute.

http://www.internalkungfu.ca/download4.wmv

Craig

Looks similar to a butterfly sword form I know.

[gwa sow]

yea, a few of the moves don't work to well with a light stick. kinda need something with some more "umph behind it to work well.

[neit]

watched the flute form video. who carries 2 flutes? not that i play much flute, but if i did i'd mostly likely just carry one.

[GeneChing]

The Xingyi short stick is akin to a police baton, and is often taught in the Chinese military/police circles.

[Judge Pen]

We are taught a single short-stick form in our curriculim. It's a short form, but nice in terms of footwork.

I also learned a double short-stick form from another guy who claimed it was chinese in origin, so I suppose they are out there.

[Shaolin Dude]

We are taught a single short-stick form in our curriculim. It's a short form, but nice in terms of footwork.

I also learned a double short-stick form from another guy who claimed it was chinese in origin, so I suppose they are out there.

can you describe the single short stick form to me?

[Royal Dragon]

I'd love to see some video of a short stick form, besides the 18 Daoist palms guy. I'm not too impresed with him, and most of what i have seen of that guy is some sort of kempo looking thing.

[joedoe]

Our lineage of NCK has two shorter sticks. One is the short stick, called the 'dog hitting stick'. It is roughly the length from the tips of the fingers to the shoulder, a little shorter. A lot of the techniques are similar to the broadsword. The other is the 'beggar's cane' which is probably about 4' long and used like a staff but also including some short stick type techniques.

[Judge Pen]

can you describe the single short stick form to me?

Hmmm. That's a bit difficult as I don't have "lyrics" for the form per se. Form starts with the stick in right hand with one end on the ground. Steps out, left leg, left hand covers and palm strikes. Right leg steps up to join left and the stick jabs out to the center of their body mass. Left hand clears to your left, left knee comes up to check and you step out to a bow stance to the left and strike with the stick. right knee comes up to check, and you clear the outside then inside of the body with the stick and step out to a right bow stance and strike down with the stick. You then turn and so a series of spins and steps wich repeats itself a few times in the form. That's the first part of the form. You will often times step behind and turn to gain momentum for a strike with the stick.

Is that clear as mud?

Oh, our short stick is typically as long as the distance from your wrist to the ground.

[sean_stonehart]

watched the flute form video. who carries 2 flutes? not that i play much flute, but if i did i'd mostly likely just carry one.

I actually have 2 flutes in my bag right now... :eek:

I bought one, then found a nicer one & bought it. Just haven't taken one out yet, so in theory... I can manage a two flute set right if I did butterfly swords or daggers or some such as that.

[Ben Gash]

Mi Sidai plays flute, and he carries a bag with about ten in it.
I think Mizhong Lohan has double short stick, and I did once learn a Baji short stick.
Also, why is single dagger so uncommon?

[Judge Pen]

Also, why is single dagger so uncommon?

I don't know. We have a couple of single dagger sets, but there not very complicated.

[neit]

well i stand corrected. now i'd like to see all ten flutes in motion. that would quite the form.

[Royal Dragon]

Can we say "Jugler Fu?"

[Ben Gash]

Don't, he really does juggle as well :eek:

[Royal Dragon]

Lol!!






















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[stimulant]

I havent't really read the rest of the posts, so forgive me if I am repating someone!

Yes there is a shoulder to finger tip length stick. We have a short stick form in mizong chuan (called Duan Kun).

The shorts stick use has some similarities with broadsword, dagger and staff as you would expect, and has far more footwork than philipino styles, though the strikes, while generally being more powerfully, are slowler.


www.zhenwei.org

[ShaolinTiger00]

sorry for jumping in so late, but my sifu taught the short staff as one of the first 3 weapons in his northern shaolin longfist cirriculum.

it was an interesting form.. very extreme low and high movements.

[Oso]

RD, I learned 3 single short stick sets and 3 double short stick sets from my teacher in Boone. They were present in his system prior to his training with Kash.

Not sure of thier origin. We also had the modern arnis and they were distinctly different in how they looked. They were played with short sticks that were supposed to be about 2" longer than fingers to elbow so when in a reverse grip you had a couple inches in front and a couple inches in back for forward and backward poking.

The single sets were also a bit different in feel than the double sets.

both of them had movements similar to broadsword sets.

once I tried to do the second double stick set with some butterfly knives...ended up in the emergency room with some stitches in my knuckle...that was the first time I've ever seen any part of my skeleton....

[Judge Pen]

once I tried to do the second double stick set with some butterfly knives...ended up in the emergency room with some stitches in my knuckle...that was the first time I've ever seen any part of my skeleton....

The first time? How many "times" are there?

[Oso]

lol, so far, just the once.

it was kinda cool, there was almost no blood and I could pull the skin apart over my knuckle and see the joint and a little bit of the finger bone.

[Royal Dragon]

I did that to my elbow once! :eek:

[anarcapeack]

In Italy, Master Chang Dsu Yao from Taiwan teach a combat with Bang (Pang).
Youcan see Bang in "Ancient Chineses Weapons" of Yang Jwing-ming.
Do You know more about this kind of weapons. There are video or books ?
Thanks

[SimonM]

I'm not really concerned with movies and such, I'm more interested in short sicks from legit lineages.

My Canadian school did a bit of short stick training. We used escrima stick style weapons along with the slightly longer ones these guys are mentioning. The longer ones were normally used to practice sword work against a resisting opponent. You can't accidentally chop off fingers with a stick.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

i ran across a 'flute form' with some history last week. it seems at one point in history kung fu masters carried a flute to indicate thier degree of accomplishment.
this flute form i think is a shaolin heritage. it is either at cmaod.com or earthworks.com.

Xi style has some very short whips and something more like a baton. and a form for each. i also recently discovered a couple of nice paired short spear demos and paired whip demos that aren't exclusely broadsword or spear derivatives.

tiger tail whip also occurs in the nan zhong tradition.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

for those of you who are disc collectors there is a double double ended spear form that the weapons are about as long as a flute. it is on the shaolin kung fu appreciating two disc set. the one that covers "the hammering" period of shaolin: disc 2 39:15-39:52.

also, inthat same package there's a form at Disc 1 20:45-23:00 that seems to be called Hong Dong Yang Quan. is my lexicon off? what do y'all translate it as?

[Ou Ji]

that seems to be called Hong Dong Yang Quan. is my lexicon off? what do y'all translate it as?

You should ask your teacher.

Oh, that's right, video tapes and DVDs can't answer back.

Never mind.

[Kymus]

I'd love to see some video of a short stick form, besides the 18 Daoist palms guy. I'm not too impresed with him, and most of what i have seen of that guy is some sort of kempo looking thing.

That's kinda the impression that I got. I'd say there was only 1 part in there that really looked "kung fu" - it appeared he dropped down and then lunged forward (best way I can explain it). Otherwise, if he was wearing plain clothes or a gi, I'd think it was a karateka.. I don't mean to diss the guy, but that's how it looks to me.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

You should ask your teacher.

Oh, that's right, video tapes and DVDs can't answer back.

Never mind.

neither can you with your mindless babble. wedgie, there are some fairly well edjucated people in here. you can learn a lot from a disc. oh, that's right: you're a broke a55 prison guard looking for free techniques so you can rape the queens in medical.

hey, i would ask my sifu and sigung but my teachers aren't literate in mandarin. the one's who are don't do english and are not web savvy. plus there's the difficulty of possibly having old characters for the names and not modern characters. so, if i didn't reference where exactly i saw the character so that others could see it too there'd be no way to get an answer. so go drop thirty quid on a chinese-engrish lexicon and fifteen quid for a disc. don't do it for me: do it because you want to see how people translate basically non translateable ideas into terms they can understand. out of curiosity, what level of edjucation do you have and what do you do for a living?

btw, i translate the name of the form as "Hong's Evil D!ck form". :D :cool: that's why i was asking...it kinda reminded me of the clf "dirty d1ck sucking daughter" which has a more formal name, too. :rolleyes: :cool:

[K.Brazier]

http://tainan.colugo.org/tigertailwhip.mov

This is for the Chinese whip.
Usually made of metal or brass. In this vid we just use rattan.

Filmed at Tainan's Western gate.

Kevin

[Ou Ji]

Yawn
I an uneducated broke a55 prison guard looking for free techniques so I can rape the queens in medical.

Hmm, you seem to be knowledgeable about these things. Where did you do your time?

"btw, i translate the name of the form as "Hong's Evil D!ck form""

I think that confirms it. You have some serious issues to work out there boy.

[Judge Pen]

there are some fairly well edjucated people

I may be wrong, but isn't it spelled "educated" or is there some alternative spelling that I'm not aware of.

Not picking man, but the irony is too great to ignore.

[Judge Pen]

http://tainan.colugo.org/tigertailwhip.mov

This is for the Chinese whip.
Usually made of metal or brass. In this vid we just use rattan.

Filmed at Tainan's Western gate.

Kevin

Interesting. Since you are showing a two-man set, then what is the application of bringing the hard whip from behind the shoulder and over the head? Is it power generation (brass or metal would of course be heavier than the rattan used in the vid).

[Mega_Fist]

there are some fairly well edjucated people in here

I'm one of those people.

[Kymus]

Interesting. Since you are showing a two-man set, then what is the application of bringing the hard whip from behind the shoulder and over the head? Is it power generation (brass or metal would of course be heavier than the rattan used in the vid).

In kali we call this move "umbrella". You can bring it around the back of the neck, or circle it up front in a similar fashion. It's mostly defense. If someone comes at me with an angled strike, I can then move the stick in an umbrella motion thus either checking their hand with my stick, or their stick with mine and then I would proceid to use my other hand to either grab and trap their hand (or if I had a dagger/stick/sword I'd hit/slash it) and follow up with either a smash to their head/neck or I'd twist their hand and use my stick to swat their stick out of their hand (which would probably be followed up with a back handed blow to the stomach or ribs). I'm told that it can be used to block behind too, but I haven't seen much demonstration of the effectiveness of this. Of course, this is just Kali. As for Kung Fu - got me. Since all my stick training comes from Kali, I'm always very curious about kung fu's escrima-sized sticks and weapons.

[Oso]

JP; Kymus - K. Brazier will probably have a different answer than this (and my answer is not a Pong Lai answer) but there's not a whole heck of a lot of difference, IMO.

my experience is Precas' Modern Arnis for Philippine stick and 3 double stick sets taught to me by my old teacher as 'kung fu' sets. Haven't been able to verify the sets independantly other than K. Brazier telling me that the one he saw on vid reminded him of some chinese broadsword work.

anywho, based on my experience, chinese stick will umbrella less but when they do it is for the same reasons and pretty much identical angles of footwork are used. IMHO, it is the propensity of the forward 45 degree footwork in Modern Arnis that lends itself to the umbrella.

JP, I'm starting to teach a little of the arnis to my students outside of the normal curriculum. I'm not at all certified to teach it but if you want to come over some time, I'll show you what i know.

[SimonM]

In kali we call this move "umbrella". You can bring it around the back of the neck, or circle it up front in a similar fashion. It's mostly defense. If someone comes at me with an angled strike, I can then move the stick in an umbrella motion thus either checking their hand with my stick, or their stick with mine and then I would proceid to use my other hand to either grab and trap their hand (or if I had a dagger/stick/sword I'd hit/slash it) and follow up with either a smash to their head/neck or I'd twist their hand and use my stick to swat their stick out of their hand


That analysis seems to synch with what my Sifu said that movement was for. We have a nearly identical movement with the Dao as well. But a lot of our stick work is preliminary for sword work so that is not particularly surprising.

[Judge Pen]

Well it reminded me of the techniques that we teach for the dao as well and we use it defense; however, in the vid they were doing the umbrella when apart and not engaged so I saw no defensive practicallity to that thechnique at that time. Now it could be because it's in the form to teach the technique and is pretty or it could be that it is always done for muscle memory and reflexive purposes. I was curious, that's all.

Oso, I'd love to come down and spar and pick up pointers from ya. Finding the time is the real issue right now.

[SimonM]

I'll be honest. I didn't watch the video. I don't know why you would do it while separated in a two-man form...

[Oso]

Well it reminded me of the techniques that we teach for the dao as well and we use it defense; however, in the vid they were doing the umbrella when apart and not engaged so I saw no defensive practicallity to that thechnique at that time. Now it could be because it's in the form to teach the technique and is pretty or it could be that it is always done for muscle memory and reflexive purposes. I was curious, that's all.

Oso, I'd love to come down and spar and pick up pointers from ya. Finding the time is the real issue right now.


my old teacher said the stick was derived from the broadsword, something about not having access to swords during the ming/ching revolutionary times. {shrug} I haven't run across anything concrete to that affect though.


JP, no worries, I'll just keep inviting you. :) You can bring the woman too and we can grab some food and beer afterwards.

[Judge Pen]

JP, no worries, I'll just keep inviting you. :) You can bring the woman too and we can grab some food and beer afterwards.

Two of our favorite things. When things get squared with the new house, and it's not a UT game day (she's a huge fan) then we'll come down for fighting, food and beer.

[K.Brazier]

Judge Pen,
The big over the head smash is for power.

I think it is also like the umbrella you said. Though I am not familiar with the term.

Here the strike to the right and around the head is called "li nao" in the brain.
As if it is so close to your head it is in your brain.

The strike that goes to the left is called "chan toe guo nao" wrap the head and pass the brain.

Oso, I have another if you want to help me post again.

Kevin

[K.Brazier]

Since you mention sword I post three straight sword clips for you to compare.

The 1st, 2nd and 3rd are for practicing adhereing with your sword.

The 4th is a combination of adhereing and breaking away.

After this(not posted) is not touching or dodging.

If you have seen the 2 person straight sword set san tsai jian then you can see sections where neither sword touches.

http://tainan.colugo.org/slicekneesend.mov

http://tainan.colugo.org/sticky%20jian.mov

http://tainan.colugo.org/bengshao.mov

http://tainan.colugo.org/jiakai.mov

Kevin

[Oso]

Judge Pen,
The big over the head smash is for power.

same reason as arnis.

I think it is also like the umbrella you said. Though I am not familiar with the term.

personally, I can't see that 'umbrella' is a phillipine euphamism or idiom. but, I could be way wrong here. seems most likely that it was derived by americans after arnis came to the states.

in modern arnis (as I learned it) the circling part of the umbrella is used as a deflection or block as you step inside the arc of the strike and then the finishing stroke of the umbrella would be an attack. most of the time circling movements used ONLY to gain power were referred to as "'zeros" or ''double zeros"

Here the strike to the right and around the head is called "li nao" in the brain.
As if it is so close to your head it is in your brain.

The strike that goes to the left is called "chan toe guo nao" wrap the head and pass the brain.

Oso, I have another if you want to help me post again.

Kevin

Kevin, send em on. My web person is back on board.

[K.Brazier]

Here is a picture of one of the door gods with a Chinese whip.

Kevin

[Kymus]

Kevin, could you explain to me sticky jian?

[SimonM]

The idea behind sticky jian was to maintain complete control over your opponent's blade. Wherever they move their sword your sword remains in contact with theirs and flows to a position of control and hopefully to an opportunity to hit.

[K.Brazier]

Yea,
Simon is about right.
It is an introductory move and introductory training becuase it is the easiest.
Kevin

[GeneChing]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuuVOjhlUOY

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine/upload/5010_KFM201703-JuneCover.jpg

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