Challeneged Emin Boztepe this Sat.

[Ray Pina]

I showed up at Emin Boztepe's seminar a little early this Sat. and waited for him outside. As soon as he rolled up I requested a match.

He was curious as to why I wanted to fight him, so I told him it was strictly business, that he had a big reputation and just happened to be in NYC at the same time his picture was on the cover of an industry magazine. I also added that his reputatation for what he did to Master Chueng made it a little easier.

He did invite me up. He did say he didn't want to fight me because he had no hate for me and needs that to fight but also said he didn't want to put me in the hospital.

Now, this was different than some folks who say they're worried about insurance and being sued. He didn't mention anything about his welfare, he truly was looking out for mine, believing he could seriously hurt me.

I assured him I knew all of these consequences when I woke up and decided to have a friend come film me challenge him on a NYC street corner.

So what to do?

He started his seminar and gave me some face, telling his students that a "brave young man" came to challenge him .... and alone for that matter. He set them up for some drills and we chi saud but it was more like clinch work/grappling.

I have to say, this man now has my respect. Though we didn't fight he didn't dodge me either. He was very open, and told me Master Cheugn was 43 when he fought him, the same age he is now having invited me up to play. He also sai Chueng insulted his master. That's why he did what he did and I can't fault him for that either.

In the end, I have to say the man has power and technique. It was wise for him not to fight me because with all his students their he'd have to hold nothing back, and I didn't go there with the camera to lose. It probabaly would have left someone, if not both of us, injured. I don't feel I was good enough yet to take him out cleanly, that I would have eaten something for my efforts.

It's hard to say, and I do have a bit of regret because I'll never know how I'd match up without actually fighting him but wnated to be fair. The man has talent and deserves what he gets out of martial arts. Actually, he deserved more .... there was only about 10 folks at his seminar and his wing chun was good. Usually I find it week and unstructured. Maybe his work with Judo Jean La Bell has helped. But power and structure was there. I was impressed with his technique, but more so with him. He's a real martial artist and carries himself with dignity and respect.

I went to fight and left with a friend.

[Indestructible]

He pats your head and you wag your tail?

[Ray Pina]

I'm not quite sure what you mean?


My take is that I challenged a man to fight, and he was highly aware of the consequences of the two of us fighting and I believe he handled the situation well. Neither of us had to get hurt, but we could feel the other's level. He didn't run or hide behind the fact that he had a seminar to do, that he was worried about the insurance of the school he was holding this at.

Compare this to others who have very big mouths and when asked to demonstrate someting they give you every excuse in the book.

In the past I read a lot of negative things about this man, but having faced him man to man, spoked to him, and had an opportunity to play with himn a bit, he has my full respect.

I don't give martial praise lightly, because honestly, I think most martial artists are full of $hit. They talk a lot, they ask for you to stand there while they demonstrate on you, but rarely free play live with a stranger.

This man literally accepted a challenger off a NYC street corner and displayed that he had skill and power.

I went there to fight. In my mind when I went to bed on Fri. night I was waking up for a battle in which I intended to hurt a man. This was a nice surprise.

Say what you will.

[FatherDog]

So you challenge Sifu Ross to a fight, and when he says to come by his gym any time for a sparring session with any of his students, you rag on him, but when you challenge Emin to a fight and he basically says "No, I don't want to hurt you" and compliments you at his seminar, you're all smiles?

It sounds like you care less about testing your skills and more about having your ego fed.

[Nick Forrer]

In the past I read a lot of negative things about this man, but having faced him man to man, spoked to him, and had an opportunity to play with himn a bit, he has my full respect.



This was my impression when I met him. Hes a good guy and a great martial artist. Anyone who trained as hard as he did has my respect independent of lineage or style. FWIW Ray I dont know your level so this maybe presumptious but I think he would have seriously hurt you if it came to it.

[fa_jing]

You should have called Leung-Ting a 4-eyed freak who never actually trained with Yip Man. :eek: Apparently this is the only true justification for two martial artists to fight. And in that case, age doesn't matter.

you should have told him that your master teaches tai-chi without forms and asked him if he thought it was effective. If he said no, pow!! :p

[chud]

I have to say, this man now has my respect. Though we didn't fight he didn't dodge me either. He was very open, and told me Master Cheugn was 43 when he fought him, the same age he is now having invited me up to play. He also said Chueng insulted his master. That's why he did what he did and I can't fault him for that either.

In the end, I have to say the man has power and technique.

I used to train in the Wing Tsun (Master Leung Ting's) system for about a year when Emin Boztepe was still part of that organization. I attended a couple of seminars that he led, and I can testify that he is very skilled.

Regarding the Boztepe/Cheung incident, here's what I heard about the circumstances leading up to that: supposedly in the year or two prior to the incident William Cheung had been making a lot of statements in the martial arts press regarding his Wing Chun being superior and disrespecting the other masters. These other masters, all of whom had trained under Yip Man and considered each other brothers, went to Leung Ting and talked to him about it (they respected Leung Ting because he was the last closed-door private student of Yip Man before he died). Leung Ting then put the word out within his organization and Emin Boztepe confronted Cheung at a seminar in Germany (Boztepe had been training under Leung Ting's student Keith Kernspecht in Germany). The rest, as they say, is history and you can view the footage online. While it was not Wing Chun's finest hour, it was my understanding that Cheung had really backed the rest of the Wing Chun community into a corner; and while they had some residual respect for him as a brother and fellow disciple of Yip Man, something had to be done at that point because Cheung had disrepected too many people for too long and had forced the Wing Chun community's hand. It is worth noting that Cheung has been humble and quiet ever since this incident.

Years later Boztepe left Leung Ting's organization. I am uncertain of the exact reasons but it seemed to be a clash of personalites; Boztepe was always pretty confident and I think he wanted to head his own organization and be the one to run things. Some of the students I trained with left with him, others stayed in the Leung Ting organization. Unfortunately I dropped out of Wing Tsun due to lack of time (family, work, etc). I have recently gotten back into kung fu, but am now going to a different school (not Wing Chun). I might take up Wing Chun again at some point though.

[rogue]

Age and a reputation will mellow a person. I've not heard a negative thing about Emin as a teacher, it sounds like he's putting the hothead thing behind him.

I have to say that Emin showed some real class and smarts dealing with Ray. Take it as a valuable lesson. :)

[Ray Pina]

I have to say that Emin showed some real class and smarts dealing with Ray. Take it as a valuable lesson. :)

He certainly did. And I learned something about professionalism.

[Ray Pina]

So you challenge Sifu Ross to a fight, and when he says to come by his gym any time for a sparring session with any of his students, you rag on him, but when you challenge Emin to a fight and he basically says "No, I don't want to hurt you" and compliments you at his seminar, you're all smiles?

It sounds like you care less about testing your skills and more about having your ego fed.

Sifu Ross and I disagreed about training methods, mostly conditioning. I insist that conditioning plays a role when two equaly weighted young men agree to hop into a ring with gear and fight with stoppage for multiple rounds. Its been my experience, that when fighting for real, with no gear and no stoppage until someone is out or taps, verocious, solid technique is most important. In fact, fights are over before a sweat is broken.

This has been my experience growing up fighting and witnessing fights, as is my experience now that I'm doing this kind of fighting.

We could talk back and forth all day on this, instead I suggested Mr. Ross fight me to show me his technique. He told me he was too old and retired .... which kind of made my point (though I'd still fight one of his students with the same conditions: no gear, no stoppage to KO or tap).

Mr. Boztepe, who I had no prior experience with, welcomed me, a stranger, up to test his skills. I did not want to press him in ront of paying customers out of respect. The man was not only a gentleman but confident -- two qualities I respect. In the end, at our levels, we did not need to come to blows. He felt each other's power and technique.

Though I have an uneasy feeling about not accomplishing what I set out to do that day, I'm satisfied with the outcome.

Mr. Boztepe has my total respect.

[lkfmdc]

Since you want to bring it up AGAIN , yawn ,....

Yes, we did disagree about conditioning... but I offered to spar you personally if you wanted to come down during a sparring class, follow our basic rules and wear the gear we use here.

You declined.

I told you I saw nothing positive in you just wanting to come to my school and having a no rules brawl....

You were petulant and tried to get me to go your way with some petty insults. I still declined, but offered you if you were willing to make it worth my while, ie PAY ME, then I'd do it....

You either didn't have the cash or had no interest in paying me, so I let it drop

[Golden Tiger]

Boy, things sure are different out there in kung fu land. If some one woke up one morning thinking that they wanted to go out and whip some one's arse, I can only hope they took the time to make final resting plans.

I mean really Pina, re-read your post and see if you don't see how childish and out and out silly it sounds. I tell ya, it is amazing that some people have made as long as they have.

Hey, if this bothers you, how about we meet at the playground after school....or better yet, how about a duel at the OK corral..... :rolleyes:

[fa_jing]

Well the guy he challenged did the exact same thing to another, famously, in the past.

[Ray Pina]

I don't remeber insulting you. And if I did I'm sorry.

The thing I'm concerned about is coming to your school and getting caught up playing your game. If you want me to wear head gear and boxing gloves -- if that is the only way you'll play with me -- I'll meat you half way. I'll put the gear on. But I want no stoppage of action. We go until someone taps or is KOed.

As far as paying you for that honor, what seperates you from the guys I'm fighting now for free? You have studied with a famous man, and have produced fighters for this relatively centralized San Da community but I am unaware of any "street cred" as Seven Star puts it. Meaning, who have you beaten that makes you such a big deal?

My interest in you is not for building my reputation, it is to close this matter. Sport is sport. Fighting is demolish the other man or be demolished.

[Ray Pina]

Boy, things sure are different out there in kung fu land. If some one woke up one morning thinking that they wanted to go out and whip some one's arse, I can only hope they took the time to make final resting plans.

I mean really Pina, re-read your post and see if you don't see how childish and out and out silly it sounds. I tell ya, it is amazing that some people have made as long as they have.

Hey, if this bothers you, how about we meet at the playground after school....or better yet, how about a duel at the OK corral..... :rolleyes:

Keep doing your form and meditating on the Tao and I'll keep doing this and then we'll meet up in say 5 years from now ...... who would you put your money on?

[YMC]

In the end, I have to say the man has power and technique. It was wise for him not to fight me because with all his students their he'd have to hold nothing back, and I didn't go there with the camera to lose. It probabaly would have left someone, if not both of us, injured. I don't feel I was good enough yet to take him out cleanly, that I would have eaten something for my efforts.

Doesn't this statement pretty much back up the logic used by some of the Sifu that you challenged (e.g Sifu Parrella) as you relate below..."


Now, this was different than some folks who say they're worried about insurance and being sued.

From a third party view of what has been said over these many months (coming from me, a general forum lurker and a person with no ambition to fight and in fact spend most of my time avoiding them), it seems that while people like Sifu Ross actually accepted your challenge with the stipulation that chances of injury be minimized (which frankly seems to a logical and prudent thing to do), Sifu Boztepe expertly avoided one by stroking your ego a little. In the end this says more about your path then it does of either men don't you think? You say things like:


My interest in you is not for building my reputation, it is to close this matter. Sport is sport. Fighting is demolish the other man or be demolished.

If you truely believe in the last sentence, then why would you say "It probabaly would have left someone, if not both of us, injured. I don't feel I was good enough yet to take him out cleanly, that I would have eaten something for my efforts." Isn't dealing with the injuries part of true fighting? I don't fight because I realize that for the most I'd be the person eating the floor and I can't afford to deal with injuries because of my profession (And I say this as a person with not an unsizable ego).

I guess I don't really know who you are, but since you have posted these things in a public forum, I guess it isn't unreasonable or inappropriate for someone to point out some inconsistancies in your arguements as one sees them.

[Ray Pina]

I posted what I posted because a) I thought folks would find it interesting due to Mr. Boztepe's reputation and B) Because I felt he deserved the positive feedback.

As for fighting and injuries, they do happen. I've been lucky that since training with my master my body has changed a bit and I seem more resilient .... some injuries have actually healed.

But, more importantly is my master's motto: Don't go fight someone, go beat them.

I have to say, I'm not sure I could have gotten a victory over Mr. Boztepe without "fighting", incurring some damage..... just the feeling I got. In fact, he could have beaten me. Hard to say without fighting.

What I do not want to do though is face someone I have had disagreements with and have all these obstacles between us. If we are going to fight we should fight and do it right. We're not kids at a tournament. We're men. If you're going to say something, even over the safety of the internet, know you can be called on it.

When one grown martial artist puts down another he should be ready to face that man bear knuckle. If he's not comfortable with that, he should speak more softly, not be so orrogant, not be so quick to call someone out.

I don't know. Right or wrong that is my feeling on the matter.

[shaolinboxer]

HAHA! As we age, we all become confidence men.

Ray, you might have kicked his butt, and he feared you as he would fear a younger version of himself.

Can't fault a man for being wise.

[lkfmdc]

The more you post, the more I feel I have proved my point. Challenges are stupid and achieve nothing...

You will believe whatever it is you WANT to believe... you think I "just" produce San Da fighters, the numerous awards my people have won in kickboxing, boxing, Muay Thai, submission grappling and mixed martial arts you either ignore or manage not to be conscious of.....

Simply put, you want to put me in a box checked "sport" but the reality is, we are about fighting, period...

Guys like Chris Jurak who trained with me YEARS ago, will tell you two things;

1. We've always been about fighting

and

2. I've had more than my share of "no rules" brawls...

But after 10 or 12 of them, probably more than 99% of this board has by the way, I can tell you, they end up meaning nothing, because once they are done, there's another guy waiting next week for another one.

No matter how many times I"ve closed the doors and done one of those, it's never put money in my pocket, sent my wife on vacation, or made the trolls go away....

Simply put, it's a waste of my time. Who am I? To paraphrase an old Chinese saying, If you don't know, why should I bother telling you?

[Ray Pina]

I'm sorry. I thought I was speaking to someone else all along.

I play chess because I'm a chess player. Someone wants to play with me I ablidge them to see if I can handle their technique and strategy and if not why I failed. I don't think about how I can gain financially from it, unless we are playing for money but that just makes it more interesting between two guys who are close in skill.

I'm the same way with martial arts. If someone wants to play I'll play for the love of it, the challenge. Not him challenging me. Me challenging myself.

Does my training allow me to enter into the situation feling safe and secure? Has my experience given me the tools that I'll need for this individual? That's it. That's the reason.

If you have done all of this in the past that is great. But why have you retired so soon? You are still a young man, especially by Chinese martial arts standars.

As far as your student's, it's great. I respect what you're doing for them. But I hope you are preparing them for a lifetime of competive training. Allowing them to compete against the young when they are old, the big when they are small. This is martial art.

That's your business -- your fighters. And I wish you well, really. Like I said, I put all that behind us.

[chud]

Well the guy he challenged did the exact same thing to another, famously, in the past.

Again, just to be clear, Boztepe did it because Cheung had insulted his master, and pretty much every other master in the Wing Chun community.

[fa_jing]

that's an oversimplification. The attack had alot to do with a financial conflict of interest between Cheung's school and and LT's school in that they were going after the same student base, and also with Boztepe making a name for himself. To act like W. Cheung had thrown down some kind of gross insult that would justify a "forced challenge" meaning fighting him after he refused to fight, is bullsh!t.
All Cheung and LT did was cast aspersions over who had the best fu and the closest relationship to Yip Man. And why? Looking for more students in their space, that's why. No body's mother was insulted, know what I mean?

That's why I said that Ray should have asked Boztepe if he thought Tai Chi could be taught without forms, and if he answered no, just popped him in his eye.

Young Boztepe >> Old Boztepe

[rogue]

Old Boztepe >> Smarter >> Young Boztepe

The further this thread goes the more I'm impressed with how Emin handled the situation. By using his head and a little charm he has a challenger talking him up, and the challenger left feeling good about himself. So with a little effort he diffused an awkward situation, did his seminar and looks good to everyone. You can tell that Boztepe has been in this spot many times before. I wonder how much he regrets the WC incident and knowing what he knows now if he'd do it again.

Ray, which styles have you been doing the challenge matches against? Which ones were the toughest?

[David Jamieson]

That Turkish B@stard!

Turns out he's a sissy after all :D

Best line from the emin vs william

"d@mn these floors are slippy" and "My shoes, my shoes! These stupid cotton shoes!"

Most notable technique "the flail" and the "fall over".

almost as revealing of skill as teh macao matchup. :D

[SAAMAG]

Personally, this whole thread is silly.

Has anyone really read any of this?!

[David Jamieson]

Personally, this whole thread is silly.

Has anyone really read any of this?!

no...it was too long and the spelling was atrocious.

I don't have time for this crap!

who invited me here anyway?

[FuXnDajenariht]

:D gimme sum of what ur on dave :D

[chud]

that's an oversimplification. The attack had alot to do with a financial conflict of interest between Cheung's school and and LT's school in that they were going after the same student base, and also with Boztepe making a name for himself. To act like W. Cheung had thrown down some kind of gross insult that would justify a "forced challenge" meaning fighting him after he refused to fight, is bullsh!t.
All Cheung and LT did was cast aspersions over who had the best fu and the closest relationship to Yip Man. And why? Looking for more students in their space, that's why. No body's mother was insulted, know what I mean?

That's why I said that Ray should have asked Boztepe if he thought Tai Chi could be taught without forms, and if he answered no, just popped him in his eye.

Young Boztepe >> Old Boztepe
Well I disagree. William Cheung's public statements about the superiority of his Wing Chun over everyone else's were very well known, and he pretty much alienated himself from the entire Wing Chun community. I once saw a framed picture of Leung Ting and all the other Wing Chun masters taken at a dinner around the time of "the incident"; it was like a who's who of the Wing Chun world: Wong Shun Leung, Yip Chun, and about 15 other well known Wing Chun masters (in fact, every master I had ever heard of)...however William Cheung was noticably absent from the picture. Why? No one wanted to invite him. A picture is worth 1000 words as they say.
In my opinion it was just a matter of time before someone came gunning for William Cheung; if it hadn't been Boztepe it would have been someone else.
One last thing I'll say about this issue: during the two seminars that I attended with Boztepe (back when I trained Wing Tsun), he never even mentioned the Cheung incident, and I got the impression that it was something that he had put behind him long ago and preferred not to dwell on.
You can believe me or not, I don't care...I have no vested interest in defending Boztepe. I do not train in his schools. Nor do I have any ill will towards William Cheung, he trained with Grandmaster Yip Man and for that reason alone he is due a certain amount of respect. However I say what I say here because it seems to me that too often Boztepe is villified and Cheung comes off as the innocent wounded doe, when in fact there are reasons why things happened the way they did; and all of this is common knowledge among the elders in the Wing Chun community.

[Sifu Darkfist]

I understand the yearning for the old days and the times where a challenge could solve many issues. However, today it has occured to me that any challenge could be a set up or worse. Mr. Pina has experienced a classic and Honorable martial arts experience and was impressed by a gracious Mr. Botzepe. both acted honorably in the end. Today we must face the harsh reality of the death of the honr system and understand that the evolution of martial arts will not allow for good clean challenges, if even for the simple fact that most experts are concentrating on combat/ kill moves and even more of us are putting down the swords and knives for a healthy dose of firearms training. i guess what i am saying is that this challenge was in the right place at the right time any where else and with any other men there might have beeen bloodshed which in the end proves nothing. Simply because even the best fighter can have a bad millisecond and lose an eye or recieve a crushed throat from a swift lucky novice.
im not sure what the answer is other than the overall admittance that we are all subject to the decision of the higher power or luck if you are agnostic. We are all inferior to combat firearms, but we must all continue to train for the moment without and for our longetivity. We all have families and i feel we should all be a family. Leave the Hand to hand for sport or god forbid WAR.

[chud]

We all have families and i feel we should all be a family. Leave the Hand to hand for sport or god forbid WAR.

Well said Darkfist. This issue is a dead horse and I am going to leave it. Onwards and upwards!

[anerlich]

He was very open, and told me Master Cheugn was 43 when he fought him, the same age he is now having invited me up to play. He also sai Chueng insulted his master.

To duplicate the situation, you should have gone there with a whole bunch of your buds, and video equipment, challenged him, and when he said "hang on ... why" jumped on him immediately.

I agree, maturity has wised up a lot of people, and arguably nobody involved in this acted honorably. If you're going around challenging people, I gather maturity has yet to catch you up.

BTW, Emin said in a magazine interview a while back that he was sent by Leung Ting and Keith Kernspecht to ambush Cheung. that he regretted it, and that he no longer bore Cheung any animosity (I assume he mentioned that to you, since he was so open and all?). Cheung insulted Leung Ting, but he also insulted just about every other senior WC practitioner in existence as well at various times. Only LT took the mouth boxing seriously enough to respond, and responded badly.


Today we must face the harsh reality of the death of the honr system and understand that the evolution of martial arts will not allow for good clean challenges

My academy has had about four challengers in the last three years. There were no shortage of challenges in the early days of BJJ in the US either. I agree with you that the sporting arena is a healthier place for comparison of skills.

[Vajramusti]

"I play chess because I'm a chess player. Someone wants to play with me I ablidge them to see if I can handle their technique and strategy and if not why I failed. I don't think about how I can gain financially from it, unless we are playing for money but that just makes it more interesting between two guys who are close in skill."
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Ray- you appear to link your orientation to both chess challenges and MA challenges. I dont know about your skills in either activity... but chess has a relatively
reliable ratings system that is updated with each match. Out of curiosity what is your
chess rating- do you have one? Will your rating name be listed as Ray Pina?
The National championship was held here in Phoenix a little overa week ago. There were opportunities for challenge matches as well.

[Ray Pina]

The most skillful guy I've played with in a while would be a BJJ guy from Philly. He recently won advanced No Gi Grapplers Quest. We sparred lightly and rolled and he was abble to tap me a few times, but at the same time I had periods of dominant position when I would've been striking. It was a good match. We're planning on fighting soon, maybe this weekend. He just got back from training in Brazil. I have size and better stand up, he's much better locking on the ground.

It's a matter of if I can beat him good uptop or have the structure and power to hold off a lock long enough to belt him good. I'll let ya know how it goes.

Other than that, I've had some good success against TKD, Ju-Jitsu, JKD, Kung Fu, Wing Chun, Tiger Claw, Hapkido, boxing, wrestling (team mate of Mark Kerr) and two brawlers ... one of which was pretty tough with a hard chin. The levels varied from a few years of training with a recent turn on for this kind of fighting to 20 year+ instructor.

......
I don't know CJ, I don't think about it that much. Really. I just try to fight who I want to fight when I feel like it .... or at least ask. I know there are guys who I just can't compete with yet ... I know that. That's why I'm doing what I'm doing. I'm finding you have to build a certain level of inner rage, a fire, to really bash someone. It's not anger or hatred, it's just this darket feeling and I find possession of it has changed everything for me. And I spent the past week with a girl I was sweating for the time before this challenge and it did effect me. I should've been fishing and bashing a few trout on their head and focusing. If I was there mentally I probabaly would've been more provoking. Anyway, I need to build this fire with more experience before I can fight the very few folks that I really want to fight. After that I'll be satisfied to just improve my ability by training hard but that is some time away.
........
I used to play on Game Colony.com but it's been a while. My rank varied on that from about 1535 to 1615 with dips into the high 1400s and low 1700s. It's a relative rank though, depending on the rank of your apponant. Sometimes a genious signs on at the issued 1400 and slaughters you. Sometimes a newbie will only play guys ranked 1300 and run up their rank to 1700 until they play a higher-skilled player carrying abum rank.

Either way I like to play. My money game is 5 minutes as black. Do that a few times and then switch colors.

[Vajramusti]

"I used to play on Game Colony.com but it's been a while. My rank varied on that from about 1535 to 1615 with dips into the high 1400s and low 1700s. It's a relative rank though, depending on the rank of your apponant. Sometimes a genious signs on at the issued 1400 and slaughters you. Sometimes a newbie will only play guys ranked 1300 and run up their rank to 1700 until they play a higher-skilled player carrying abum rank."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the info. Game Colony com is fairly recent phenomenon and their ratings are uneven and unreliable.
Serious ratings are/have been USCF and FIDE.

[Golden Tiger]

I should've been fishing and bashing a few trout on their head and focusing.

Wasn't it once said that most serial killers started out abusing animals? Hmmm, just think aloud......

[Ray Pina]

Listen, this is just getting rediculous.

You either bonk the fish (2 fish limit where I fish) and put it out of its missery or let it sophocate in a plastic bag for 30 minutes. It just so happens that the humane thing to do also involves a very natural thing for man to do, to take life in order to sustain his own ..... be it a fish, a cow or even a string bean.

With that said, why does everyone have their panties in a bunch .... and with me?

I challenged someone to a fight and they refused AND I still had good things to say about the man, about his power and skill.

Maybe other's refused and I didn't feel the same way. Everything is an individual situation. Two people can say the same thing but say it differently.

When he said he was scared to put me in the hospital it was because he believed that was the case. As a person who fights I could feel his confidence.

When other's have told me the same -- I know, and I know they know -- it was out of cowardice. That's OK. It's natural to fear losing, being hurt, and even possibly losing one's position, or supposed position.

I tell everyone who fears hurting me --- including Emin -- that it's OK. I have the video and I obsolve them of any responsibility.

So what's the problem? One fighter asked another to fight? One fighter (me), actually has something positive to say about the other (Emin). Usually, in this case most people would call him out and say I challenged him on video and he refused. But that wouldn't be the whole truth.

So, again, what's your real problem? I'll be honest. I'm sensing you're a weak martial artist and the idea that this type of thing goes on, and you are so far removed from it, bothers you. You don't know what to do -- perhaps pick up your training -- so you mock it, make fun.

I run into people like you all the time, that's why you're so easy to recognize. My friends and I build double-decker bikes. Most love them, but there's always the ass hole who makes a negative comment when we ride by on the boardwalk. They don't know us, haven't ridden the bikes and can't deny that they're cooler than his standard K-Mart bike .... so why the negativity?

If this type of thing does not interest you there are plenty of threads about preparing flan, who did what with the correct, politics, religion and everything else under the sun except how one man handles another in free combat.

Good luck with all that other stuff

Ray Pina

[Shaolinlueb]

no...it was too long and the spelling was atrocious.

I don't have time for this crap!

who invited me here anyway?
lets go back to the isreal school thread :P

[rogue]

FLAN!!! It's what gave 7* his street cred back. ;)


The most skillful guy I've played with in a while would be a BJJ guy from Philly. He recently won advanced No Gi Grapplers Quest. We sparred lightly and rolled and he was abble to tap me a few times, but at the same time I had periods of dominant position when I would've been striking. It was a good match. We're planning on fighting soon, maybe this weekend. He just got back from training in Brazil. I have size and better stand up, he's much better locking on the ground. Ray, nice line up of opponents. I'm assuming that most of this was friendly, so when you say you and the BJJ fighter will be "fighting soon" do you mean a friendly roll or a challenge match? :confused: What kind of rules are you using when you do this? Thanks

[Ray Pina]

The matches I mention above, against those type of stylists, were arranged over the internet. For the last 4 or 5 I've had a digital video camera so I have footage of a few of those fights .... though my friend didn't hit record for the best fight of my life against the JKD guy who was really a tough brawler with a ground game (that one haunts me).

To date, everyone has been cool. We never go into detail about "do's and don'ts". I generally say as we strap on the 4oz "Do what ya want, just respect the tap" and they nod in agreement.

For me, I will strike the head of course with fists, elbows, forearms and even my legs and knees if I can and that's what's called for. I'll attack the ribs with intention of causing pain, same for collar bone.

I will never attack the eyes or groin, pull hair, bite, scracth, etc in this type of thing. Gentleman's rules.

I haven't attacked the throat, though I have pushed off on it to get leverage to escape a lock or two .... it's done the trick so far though my master showed me how it's not such a great idea last night.

I have to say, I'm feeling a little weak right niow. Don't know if it's because the Emin thing was anti climatic (no fight) plus I learned there's guys out there (lots of them) with a lot of power and technique and that makes for a dangerous fgihter no matter the level. Also feeling a little run down because I become like a monk 4 days out before a fight and can go overboard afterwards to make up for it. Nothing crazy, but been eating unhealthy and running late hours the past few days.

I need to focus again. I need to find that fire again. Been too caught up in matters of the heart the past 12 days or so but I know I'll get it back.

[TenTigers]

Ray,
could you post some pics of double decker bikes? I have no clue what yer talkin about. I have this image of the bicycle version of those guys who put car bodies on chassis all jacked up like a monster truck. Now THOSE guys are just plain stupid.
There was a guy in my neighborhood who had like a dodge coronet up about eight or nine feet on this insane monster truck like chassis. It was different, it was unique, everybody recognized that car, I'll give him that.
Don't try to come to my house to pick up my daughter in that, I'll snipe ya from the roof before you get to my front steps.
...but I digress......
btw-keep up this thread. It gives those who for whatever reasons cannot, or will not, or one day want to, live vicariously through Ray's exploits.
It also gives a peek into the mindset it takes to train, and push oneself both physically and mentally to face these challenges-even within yourself.
****, Ray-this has all the makings of a great reality show. You should keep filming it and sell it to Spike TV.
(voice over) "Are YOU up to 'THE CHALLENGE"? -catchy, huh?
I see this culminating in Ray erecting a Lei-Tai at the beach, and taking on all comers. I also am visualising the end scene in "The One"-ok, getting carried away here. (but he DID do Hsing-Yi)
OMG! Ray-YOU'RE THE ONE!!!

all kidding aside, I don't think this thread should be a Ray-bashing thread. I think he;s sharing not only some good info, but alot of himself as well. If you make it into a bashing thread,I'm sure Ray will simply say F***-off, and that will be it. I know I would. Ray is giving a heckuva lot of insight into his personal experience.
Jeez, it's not as if he's Vasquez!
Keep it up, Ray.

[TenTigers]

Ray,
did you tell your Sifu about this? What is his opinion?

[Ray Pina]

A double decker bike (http://www.geocities.com/ratpatrolhq/BikesTall.html) is welding one bike frame ontop of another to make one tall bike that ides just like a regular bike. Mine isn't tall. I tool two frames and made a long chopper that has a Lau Tzu statute welded onto it, along with roatating saw blades held on by magnet so I can throw them into wet boardwalk wood (just for the fun of it) as well as some rusting Chinese bells. It's just fun to go bike with friends late night and get some air .... it's a beach town thing.

As for my master, I told him I wanted to challenge Emin a few weeks ago when I learned he'd be in NY and he played it off telling me I'd probabaly have to pick a number with all the Wing Chun guys that would be there to do the same. I don't know if he though I was serious or not.

Afterwards, I could sense a little anoyance from him that I didn't handle this man easily. Maybe that's just something inside myself though, he never said anything but I feel like I know my master. Truth be told I've only been with my master about 3.4 years now so the fact that I could play with this man and not be defeated, though I don't feel like I "defeated" him either, is good enough for me now.

I learned I still need clinch work for guys who are taller and heavier than me. Turns out my master was working on this exactly when I walked in last night.

My master always says he doesn't care if I win or lose, just that I do it right.

For me, I'm going to focus the next few weeks on power, doing a lot of two man sets and standing. Also on getting my head right, it's just not in the same space it was 3 weeks ago.

[mantiskilla]

I checked out your link, do you study all of the styles listed, or just a select one or two? I just glanced through the site and saw this, "It is not a technique base style where the movements are the way to defeating the opponent. It is rather the use of the principles and correct use of the ideas that is incorporated into Teacher Chan's Style."
I really appreciate this statement. This is what creates a person who can use his art. IMO. Good luck with your training.

Bill
________
Body Science (http://bodyscience.ws/)

[Marcos-XB]

you should have killed him when you had the chance

[rogue]

Truth be told I've only been with my master about 3.4 years now so the fact that I could play with this man and not be defeated, though I don't feel like I "defeated" him either, is good enough for me now. Ray, I hope you don't mind but I have to ask why you are treating this like it was an actual fight? Did you actually cross hands with Boztepe in someway? :confused:

[Ray Pina]

It was definitely not a fight, the equivalent of two wrestlers grappling pretty much .... or like, half chi sau/half grappling.

What is bothering me a little bit is the competitive side of me. I've done this type of thing with other players and walked away happy not thinking twice about it because I knew, no matter how much the other might say one thing or the other, that I could have demolished them. If they didn't feel that way, it was because I edited myself to the lower common denominator to keep it fun and not be intrusive to someone who didn't want to fight and just have fun.


With Emin it was different. We wanted to keep it level headed, but at the same time he wanted to demonstrate to me why it would be foolish to fight him and I wanted to make it clear that I would have beaten his a$$ ..... I for one am not satisfied that is the case. There were moments when I certainly had him. He shot on me twice and twice my forearm sprang into action between us resting on his neck/collor bone ... to quote him, "Just checking, wanted to check your level."

But, at the same time, he did get me in a bear hug and I had his head in a lock but he had lifted me pretty much off the ground. I had one foot on the ground but no root. I looked at him and said, "At this point we'd go down."

I tell myself, well, if we went down I would regain full body leverage and have his head .... not bad. But the fact that he uprooted me in that exchange really bothers me. I was vulnerable, or at least lost control of the action. This is the first time this has happened to me in about 6 months of fighting.

For that reason, this little thing bothers me most of any martial thing that has happend to me, certainly more than my San Da loss because I'm much more rounded now than I was then.

I keep thinking he's put his wrestling training into his Wing Chun, because his structure was really good. No leaning back or vertical balance. The ba$tard was good.

[Reggie1]

With your attitude, Ray, I'm shocked you haven't gotten into some kind of combative sport by now. From your posts, I'm getting the feeling that:

*You're extremely competitive
*You truly love fighting
*You have that killer instinct
*You have the right frame of mind

I know from some of the other stuff you've said on here that you aren't into the sportfighting stuff, but what about MMA-type fights w/ limited rules?

I know you fight for the love of it, but you could have a chance to be successful. Why not take a chance at making a living doing what you love?

[rogue]

Ray,
Sounds like your competitve side/ego is dealing with too many cudv, wudv's. Have you given any thought to getting back into the ring and going against people of your own level with more intent than those you have been rolling with? There's a big difference between sparring with potatos like me and competing with the type of people Ross is putting out.

[Ray Pina]

I will fight in the cage sooner or later. I know that.

Right now there are things I need to focus on and improve. That's what's most important to me. Doing this kind of fighting is a nice, no pressure way for me to test without having to worry about wins and losses.

When I get more rounded, more complete with my master's style, I will certainly want to test it against other stylists at that level. But when I see what my master has and what I have, it would be a disservice to put myself out there as any kind of official representative. I'm guessing I need a few more years.

I'm 31 now and not really in a rush. If I can get what I want to get by 35, even 40, I think I will be hard to beat though I expect I'll be well into that sort of thing by then.

It's funny. I do love this stuff but at the same time I burnt myself out on it as a kid so I don't pressure myself. If I feel like I need to skip class after a rough day or just want to surf or hang with a friend, I'll miss. It is a big part of my life, the most important, but I try to keep it in perspective believe it or not. Just comes off differently here because this is a martial arts board. So when I'm here, that's my focus and intention.

[FuXnDajenariht]

......
I'm finding you have to build a certain level of inner rage, a fire, to really bash someone. It's not anger or hatred, it's just this darket feeling and I find possession of it has changed everything for me.

lol the cheesy star wars quote possiblities are endless. :D

[wiz cool c]

Ray what happend with you and Sifu Parrella?

[Ray Pina]

Ray,
Sounds like your competitve side/ego is dealing with too many cudv, wudv's. Have you given any thought to getting back into the ring and going against people of your own level with more intent than those you have been rolling with? There's a big difference between sparring with potatos like me and competing with the type of people Ross is putting out.

The truth of the matter is I really don't have any could'ves or would'ves.... I'm doing exactly what I want to be doing.

When I have more experience and more of my master's style I'll be jumping to represent it in the cage. I'm not really interested in San Da. I like smaller gloves .... I like forearming the face and continuing on the ground if some tall guy wants to latch onto me and take me down. I want the opportunity to make him pay for bringing me down. Not seperate and give the guy two points. I want to bump him off of me, get position, and give him two forearms across the bridge of his nose. That's just me. It eats me to have someone put me down and then stop the action.

As for the quality of the fighters I get, I can't control that. I put out an APB that we're getting together to fight and who shows up shows up. That's beyond my control but no one can say it's from a lack of trying. Also, its interesting to note, that the guys who are showing up are showing up to fight with just 4oz gloves (no other gear) and a single rule of "respect the tap."

There was one "potato" who showed up once and he hung out a jab that I jumped all over like a hanging curce ball. Afterwards I felt bad for the guy, because he really wasn't ready for that sort of thing. But he did talk a bit online and he did tell me he wanted to beat someone good so he could post video of it but no one else showed up :eek: He was about 265lbs and I wasn't going to be his high light real.

Other than that, all pretty good athletes with their own area of expertise, be it punching, kicking or grappling.

[PangQuan]

I for one hope Ray the best of results in his life's quest.

He has the right menatlity needed to enter the cage. I hope to one day see him fighting up there with the big names and doing well, all the while promoting CMA.

Regardless of anyones personal feelings towards him, we all know this would be a good thing, and that we need more people who share his goals within the CMA community.

[Ray Pina]

Thank you. I apreciate the kind sentiment.

With me, it's just that I always enjoyed martial arts and think I can learn most things pretty quickly though a few internal things have given me challenges and take some time.

My attitude is that I'm young and single and not a face-to-face professional (I'm a writer) and since I'm not scared to fight and have a really good teacher I should push myself to get good and demonstrate to those who don't believe in Chinese fighting principles that we can at least hold our own. Not saying we're better, just want recognition that we're different.

Also, you always hear MMA and BJJ players ask, "well, where's all the video .... where's the proof." I'm in the very humble beginning stages of my internal training and of my mission, but I am slowly compiling this video proof and gaining experience.

[g0pher]

The most skillful guy I've played with in a while would be a BJJ guy from Philly. He recently won advanced No Gi Grapplers Quest. We sparred lightly and rolled and he was abble to tap me a few times, but at the same time I had periods of dominant position when I would've been striking. It was a good match. We're planning on fighting soon, maybe this weekend. He just got back from training in Brazil. I have size and better stand up, he's much better locking on the ground.

Do you mean Brad Daddis? From the Philly MMA school?

[Vajramusti]

I am at times puzzled by aspects of your posts- but good luck in your general quest.