Greater 8 Step Community

[lapu_squared]

Shifu John Chang has taken an interest in some of the topics discussed in this forum and wanted to add some information. As some of you may already know, Shifu Chang studied 8 Step under GM Wei and continues to participate actively in the 8 Step community today. He only had one Kung Fu teacher, GM Wei, and has studied 8 Step exclusively for the past 30 years. Here are some of his experiences and thoughts about topics brought up recently:

Regarding James Shyun, many of GM Wei's students knew James Shyun in Taiwan 30 years ago. Shifu Chang helped James Shyun get established and find a location for his first 8 Step classes when he came to the U.S. in 1983, and continued to keep in touch with him after that. Shifu Chang considers James Shyun to be a very good martial artist, and valuable to the 8 Step community through his efforts to make 8 Step a better known style. When James Shyun started claiming to be the sole inheritor of 8 Step for marketing purposes, most of the other students of GM Wei chose to turn a blind eye for three reasons: (1) 8 Step is a somewhat rare style and James Shyun was helping to broaden its popularity, (2) Although James Shyun has only visited GM Wei's tomb once in the last 20 years as far as Shifu Chang knows, and has never contributed to its maintenance, James Shyun did show respect for GM Wei by attributing the style he teaches to GM Wei, and (3) it's always nice to see someone you know from long ago build a successful business, especially when it's based on spreading an art form you love. A few years ago, some of GM Wei's former students chose not to turn that blind eye anymore when James Shyun decided to trademark "8 Step Praying Mantis" and require payments to teach 8 Step. As some of you are aware, this conflict led to lawsuits and many personal attacks over the Internet. Shifu Chang feels that these personal attacks only hurt the 8 Step community. Shifu Chang's approach to combatting any untruths about 8 Step or GM Wei has always been to spread truths that can compete on their merits to counteract those untruths, rather than resorting to personal attacks.

In that spirit, Shifu Chang would like to lend his perspective on the recent topic of GM Wei's knowledge of Chinese medicine: To Shifu Chang's knowledge, GM Wei did not know any Chinese medicine. If he did, he never talked about it with any of his students. Even when Shifu Chang and several others stayed with GM Wei in the hospital while he recovered from a potentially lethal skin illness, GM Wei never mentioned wanting any Chinese medicines or treatments, and never asked anyone to buy any special herbs for him. Shifu Chang believes that, if GM Wei had known how to prepare Chinese medicines or had taken any significant interest in them, he would have used them when he was most in need of them himself.

Also, Shifu Chang wanted to let people know about several other former students of GM Wei who continue to teach 8 Step, since many people may not be aware of the greater 8 Step community:

Mr. Wu Er Li teaches 8 Step in Texas, including sections 1 through 6, continuing palm set, and sword set.

Mr. Lin Chun Fu, who was Shifu Chang's high school P. E. teacher, continues to teach the complete 8 Step system, including Taichi, in Los Angeles.

Mr. Zuo Xian Fu is the only full-time 8 Step teacher who has taught in Taipei for the last 10 plus years. He teaches the complete hand forms, taichi, and several weapon forms. He is also the person who organizes the yearly sweeping of GM Wei's tomb every April and ensures it is always well maintained. In recent years, Shifu Zuo has dedicated much time to standardizing the 8 Step forms based on GM Wei's teachings with the consensus of a number of others who studied under GM Wei.

Hopefully this information will raise awareness of the greater 8 Step community, which may be a good deal smaller than the number of James Shyun's students, and perhaps less outspoken, but still has much to offer in the way of knowledge about GM Wei's teachings.

[Three Harmonies]

Thank you sir, and it is refreshing to see some of the other 8 Step guys coming out a bit! Appreciate it!

Cheers
Jake Burroughs

[libingshao]

lapu_squared,

I noted on the Mantis Quarterly website that a teacher of Babu Tanglang named John Chang has written on the internal aspects of Tanglang and on Jing. Is this the same instructor/ author? I know that it probably is but I wanted to be sure.

Welcome!

Libingshao

[Pilot]

Here is a challenge to the people who love to put down someone else. Provide proof rather than a snake-oil sale pitch. I could write anything down and make it sound very convincing, but it still would not be all truth.

My wife sweeps out my house. That does not make her the master.

Who won the lawsuit?

Why do you and others try to make knock-off web sites coping the official 8 Step web site? For example the official 8 Step Praying Mantis web site is http://www.8step.com. I have seen a copy renamed to eightstep.com, and your 8-step.com that redirects you to another.

Master Sun has posted documents on the “official” 8 step website which links him directly to the system. Provide documents of your own rather than running off at the mouth.

Master Sun has produced books, and at least 1 video, of the 8 Step system. Where are yours?

Master Sun has been in many publications covering 8 Step Praying Mantis. Where is proof of your coverage?

I am surprised that Kung Fu Magazine’s forum would constantly allow this type of post to keep being posted and turn a blind eye, without banning those who repeatedly post such blather.
:mad:

[Chizica]

Lapu_squared,


Shifu Chang teaches Shifu Kennedy King in San Jose, Ca. Would you happen to be a student of Shifu Changs as well? Mine and Fork In the Roads Shifu had learned from James Shyun originally, but has been getting information from Master Chang and Kennedy King regarding the traditional style of Ba Bu. Yes, the differences are slight, but would you happen to know why James Shyun didn't go with the traditional style?

I practice Ba Bu with no intentions of ever quitting. I have both GM Wei's books as well as a DVD that has the 8mm footage of GM Wei performing the essentials. If you would happen to have any more footage or info, please PM me as I would love to further my knowledge. Also, Fork in the Road would probably love this as well.

[Sifu Darkfist]

just curious, but it seems someone was missed when the legitamite students that trained under Grandmaster Wei, was mentioned> Dr Grand Master Su Yu Chang from Pachi Tang Lang In New York. there is a plethora of evidence to this fact. :confused:

[Chizica]

Check the link below. He's there.

http://www.geocities.com/mantiscave/babu.htm

[BeiTangLang]

No disrespect, but if Mr. Chang has an interest in the forum, it would be best if he came here & just said it himsellf or spoke through a reputable channel.
We do not know who you are, if you are truely speaking for him or even know him for that matter.
Respectfully,
~BTL

[lapu_squared]

libingshao - Yes, my shifu is the same as the John Chang who wrote on the internal aspects of 8 Step for Mantis Quarterly.

Pilot - I think I understand your frustration and I agree with you. We should provide more information than we have in the past. I take the blame for this myself. Shifu Chang is very open and willing to share information, and usually relies on me to get the word out through various media. We have published a few articles through Mantis Quarterly that I would encourage you to take a look at. We have also had Inside Kung Fu on hold for several months now to do an article on GM Wei's life, including some biographical information that, to my knowledge, has not been published before. Still, my schedule has been very hectic and I simply haven't followed through. So, I promise to get more traditional 8 Step information out in the future. I doubt Shifu Chang's group will ever be as prolific as James Shyun's, since we are considerably smaller and not a commercial enterprise, but we can certainly do better than we have in the past. In the spirit of showing you our good faith, why don't you suggest one topic you'd like to hear from Shifu Chang on? I promise to get Shifu Chang's throughts on the topic and address it in detail in this thread. Thanks for the honest feedback.

Chizica - Yes, I'm a student of Shifu Chang's and know "Kennedy King" quite well. (Kennedy King is actually not his name, but I would prefer not to mention his true name on-line for purposes of protecting his privacy.) I do have a fair amount of footage of GM Wei. Perhaps we could compare notes off-line to see if either of us has footage the other doesn't. Feel free to e-mail me if this sounds good to you.

Sifu Darkfist - My apologies for missing Master Su. Actually, he was not the only one not included in Shifu Chang's list. In fact, some of the 8 Step people Shifu Chang admires most were not on the list, so I'm certain no offense was intended and it wasn't meant to be a comprehensive list.

BeiTangLang - Your skepticism is well founded. As you may already know, ordinarily Bokfu is the "reputable channel" through whom Shifu Chang gets information to the forum. Unfortunately, Bokfu is under some serious time constraints these days, so I volunteered to do it on his behalf. If you have any concerns at all about my own reputation or legitimacy, don't hesitate to e-mail me and put me to the test. I'll be more than happy to provide proof of my association with Shifu Chang. I understand that, as administrator, you need to maintain the integrity of the forum, so I would be happy to talk with you by phone or spend any time necessary to give you any assurances you may need.

[WanderingMonk]

you somehow left out Mr. Wang jie who teaches 8 steps at taiwan. He is the guy who did the demo for some of the video clips on GM Wei's memeorial website.

[Pilot]

lapu_squared:

I have no problem with any Kung Fu Brother that wants to share their roots and knowledge. I welcome information on other branches and enjoy the fellowship between the different mantis schools and styles. What I don't enjoy is the climbing the ladder by stepping on others.

[EarthDragon]

Lapu sqaured,
I commend you for your efforts and your post. It has been a long time comming.
I have had the privilidge to havespoken to John Chang before he left for Asia and once agian when he returned.
I was a long time student of James Shyun and one of the only 4 ACTUAL students of him.......when I mean that i mean trined dirctly under him not from one of his new shrfu's. everyone else is a student of a student of his and are only allowed to refer to him as Master Shyun. unlike me and 4 others who respectfully call him Shrfu Shyun.

Also my first Shrfu and best friend Dean Economos is stopping by from time to time to train with John chang in his garage. I am sure you have met him. Dean has told me of the imediate differences bewtween what he has seen with john as opposed to James. Not to say he hasnt seen james kung fu, for he has been with him since 1984 on irving street in the sunset, the very place John helped James get.

I laugh at the frustration from all these up and coming students who think that that just becuse thier cult calls 8step.com the "official" website for all of the mantis in the world and that James wrote a book for beginers on the 10 body cordinations (which arent even really 8 step) he is the only true legend the only student and sole inheritor of ba bu.
I applaud you and your lineage to step up and stick up for us practioners that have found out what the others have not gotten.

I would love to get some information and posible corrections of the true techniques I have spent 16 years trying to learn. Again thank you for stepping up, no pun intended.

[Forkintheroad]

Hello Lapu_squared,
Thank you for the informative post, and Chizica is right, if you have any information on Grand Master Wei, or Ba Bu in general that you would be willing to share, I would greatly appreciate it. Unfortuantley I have little or nothing to offer, that you don't allready have or know. I would like to thank Master Chang, and Mr. King for all the help they have given the instructors at the Edge (and I pray things go better in their personal lives).

In the past I've grilled Mr. Shyun's system, and I do not think I was wrong about my comments. I stated what I noticed between the forms, and techniques, and stick by those comments, however without Mr. Shyun the school I attend would not have the Lan Jie form.

Pilot, has there ever been any proof that Shuyn is the inheritor? Like I've already said, it's not hard to disprove what has yet to be proven. We can play this game forever, and because it's been going on so long, credible Ba Bu players like Paul Lin and others no longer, or very rarely post. I have stated a few differences and why I feel the traditional triumphs over Shuyns, but the tread was closed off before you, Andy Miles and the million other Shuyn stylists could explain why your training methods are superior, and then go from there.

Oh I would not call the Tibute page to Grand Master Wei, an 8 step knock off page, there is actually information on the tribute page, and not just somebody bragging about how wonderful they are.

Well thats all I wanted to say,
Once again Thank you Lapu_squared,
I hope somebody from Master Chang's camp can head to Western New York some day.

[mantis108]

Hi Lapu_Squared,

Thank you very much for sharing the information. I enjoy Sifu Chang's articles on the MQ and I really appreciate his sharing with and support to the mantis communtiy at large. Please send my humble regards to him.

Best regards

Robert Hui (Mantis108)

[Michael Dasargo]

Lapu Lapu,
Thank you for the informative post. Although I've never met you before, your well mannered behavior demonstrates the quality of your Shifu. I appreciate the information you've provided, and if I have a doubt about your representation, I will make attempts to contact Shifu Chang on my own time. Currently, I don't feel it is necessary as you've presented your data based on spreading your truths, versus personal attacks.

About my 8 Step line:
My Shifu, Tony Puyot, was introduced to Xun Shifu in the early 80's through Adam Hsu. At that time, my Shifu was working in loss prevention, and survived in a disadvantaged community. The premise of the introduction was that my Shifu was in search for fighting applications as his lifestyle had left no time to spend otherwise. Hsu Shifu knew of Xun Shifu's reputation, and the agreement was made. Puyot would commit his loyalty, tuition, and most importantly, hard work. The trade was for 8 Step Mantis fighting experience.

Generally, Shifu Tony Puyot prefers to remain underground. I know many current 8 Step people may discredit him as he is not listed as an "official" Xun representative. However, I have in my possession a traditional photo of my Shifu standing by the 8 step banner with Xun Shifu seated in a formal manner. I would need permission from both my Shifu and Xun Shifu to present such "evidence". However, every attempt I've made to contact the orignal location (I beleive its the location near the "ABC' restaurant...near the beach), has failed. I've left messages and have received no response. I do not want to disrespect the current instructors if I was to contact Xun Shifu directly. I would appreciate any help before I make that decision.

I am proud of my lineage, and I am honored to be a disciple of Shifu Tony Puyot. However, I will not let my pride blind me to education, nor will I let education effect my pride. Lapu Lapu, I am grateful for your insight, and I hope the 8 Step community will soon find a cohesive venue for the sake of Wei Shigong and his teachings.

Earth Dragon:
When I was much younger, my Shifu made reference to a school brother named "Dean". Could this be the same individual? If so, please give him our regards.

M.Dasargo

[Pilot]

I must repeat myself to those who read what they want to read and do not see the truth. I have no problem with there being other 8 Step roots. My problem is that there is a minority that can’t speak about 8 Step without taking personal shots at Master Sun’s (Yes, I do know that I do not spell “Sun” politically correct) 8 Step system (and his students) every chance they get.

From lapu_squared:


Although James Shyun has only visited GM Wei's tomb once in the last 20 years as far as Shifu Chang knows, and has never contributed to its maintenance

This is a personal Jab



A few years ago, some of GM Wei's former students chose not to turn that blind eye anymore when James Shyun decided to trademark "8 Step Praying Mantis" and require payments to teach 8 Step. As some of you are aware, this conflict led to lawsuits and many personal attacks over the Internet.

Again, Who won the Lawsuits?



Shifu Chang's approach to combatting any untruths about 8 Step or GM Wei has always been to spread truths that can compete on their merits to counteract those untruths, rather than resorting to personal attacks.

Saying you are searching for truth sounds good, but our personal beliefs always seem to color our words. As for the last part, refer to the first quote.



Hopefully this information will raise awareness of the greater 8 Step community, which may be a good deal smaller than the number of James Shyun's students, and perhaps less outspoken, but still has much to offer in the way of knowledge about GM Wei's teachings.

I have never been afraid of knowledge or truth. I do enjoy being a part of the mantis family. The whole family. I just wish that people would not be blinded by pride.


I am not going to even comment about EarthDragon's comments. I understand he has many issues with Master Sun and likes to express them.


From Forkintheroad:


Oh I would not call the Tibute page to Grand Master Wei, an 8 step knock off page, there is actually information on the tribute page, and not just somebody bragging about how wonderful they are.

The Tibute page to Grand Master Wei was very nice. I have no problem with this site. I was commenting on using some form of 8 Step as a web page link, when your school is not under that title. If you were truthful, you would have mentioned that I never said anything about the page you are redirected to. I did not even mention the name of the page you are redirected to after clicking on 8-step.com.



In closing, I guess I have to admit I may be a little sensitive about 8 Step lately. Ever since I came to this forum, I have seen a few that constantly bash Master Sun and the 8 Step school with no recourse from the admin here, other than locking a post after a while. It is very hard to sit by and let untruths from a few just keep going unchecked. If I have taken anyone’s comments out of the spirit it was meant, then I apologize.

[yu shan]

Mr. Dasargo

I had the pleasure of meeting Shifu Puyot at the conference in Ohio. By the luck of the draw, I got to sit and have lunch with him, sort of one on one. He is a remarkable man. We had a very nice conversation over lunch and I took away from that little hour spent with him a few treasures. We then went outside and exchanged our versions of Qi-Shou... he was full of positive comments. I hope to see him again someday, give him my regards.

[Three Harmonies]

Pilot
I do not see the "untruths" you speak of!!?? Mr. Chang says Sun has not been to Wei's tomb to help with it's maintanance in 20 years, seems kind of factual to me. No one is making personal jabs, just stating facts and leaving everyone to decide for themselves.
I actually think everyone has been cool with Sun so far. NO ONE has ever critiqued his abilities or skill, but rather questioned his honesty with making claims on being the "sole" inheritor (if someone really needs me to explain how ludicrus this is, then just say so), and the "only" true represenative of Babu in the US! If someone is going to make silly remarks like those in public, then that person better be prepared to prove his legitamacy!
As for your comment about being part of the family............got a question for you;
How much money does it take to be part of any martial family? One topic that you students of Sun have side stepped is the ridiculous amounts of money that he charges to be part of the club! Are you willing to go into detail as to how much and why those crazy amounts are charged? I have to admit when I hear someone charing exzuberant(?) amounts of cash to be part of anything, I immediately start to wonder. Not that Sun (or any one else for that matter) does not have the right ot make a good living, but I have heard that "dues" are in the thousands, and even certain uniforms and pins are available but only if you pay X amount. So I think this issue has raised a lot of eyebrows as well (I know it has with me anyways). Care to elaborate?

So in closing quit your whining, because no one has attacked your teacher here. Trust me, look up some of the other threads that are much worse. To be honest it would be nice to hear your teacher himself speak up, but I understand that may not be doable.

My 2 cents worth,
Jake :cool:

[Forkintheroad]

Pilot,
I noticed you asked "who won the lawsuits"? I've been wondering the same thing, I figured Sun lost, or you and Andy Miles would've been all over the forum, stating how that prooved he was the sole... I can't even finish that line.

[EarthDragon]

Mr Desargo,
Please say hi to tony for me. I met him many years ago in the Irving street school upstairs and still have him on tape doing the 40 throws on the the blue carpet.

Ask him hwe will remember, also mention that I was around in the years of robert the photographer 1986-87-88
He took all the large pictures 24 x36 of the then young shyun 4 of which I still own and have hanging in my school.

I beleive I am the only one who has these prints as well as the original magazines autographed by Shyun. Tony should remember all thsese things, and yes Dean is tony's 5th generation kung fu brother and the starter of the ACMAF

he is part of the original group of students from the 80's dean then moved to Buffalo and produced 5 sifu of his own those being kevin, george , steve, jack, and jerry. I got raqnked up to 5th silver then was fortunate enough to be accpeted to move to SF and live at teh school and got ranked shrfu dircetly from shyun as did only 3 people in the US the old fashion wa, , up until the money making scheme came into play.

three harmonies
I can tell you about thse money schemes as I know first hand.

1. federation dues 100.00 month to call your kwon kung fu usa, supposed to pay for flight and lodging for the annual sifu camp.. IT DOES NOT

2. shrfu uniform embroidered 450.00
3. solid gold mantis sifu pin 250.00 it is plated brass, I took mine to a jeweler.
4. grade testing 35.00 for sash and certificate, OK this one is ledgite
5. shrfu test 5,000.00 OK this one just sucks fro everyone
6. monthly collections for mantis mountian varies

those are right off the top of my head, those who do not comply with these fee's/ dues even though they are certified 8 step shrfu's and instructors are not even listed on the 8 step website.. howeve4r i was sent a letter that if i would like to pay 1,200.00 for past federation dues m name would be included on the site... I CHOOSE NOT TO.......

[lapu_squared]

First and foremost, I'd like to thank Pilot for bringing up specific points about my original post. Although Pilot has some grievances with my original post, he has refrained from any personal attacks and instead highlighted specific examples of language that he disliked. I appreciate any conversation or debate that's based on the facts and not personal insults, and I think Pilot's comments have been not only worthy of respect, but also worth considering. That is to say, the comments in his last post about the original posting for this thread are not poorly thought-out or emotional; they're perfectly rational and reasonable comments that opponents of James Shyun should respect and consider rationally.

I highlight this point because I think this goes to the heart of one of Shifu Chang's overarching points: Debate and spreading knowledge is good for 8 Step, but personal attacks and creating separate "camps" within 8 Step with political agendas can only hurt all such "camps" and ultimately the style as a whole.

Having said that, I hope Pilot will allow me to address the points he has brought up about the original post, that he will take my rebuttals for the equally logical/rational points that I intend them to be, and that he will consider them with an open mind, as I have considered his points with an open mind. I have no reason to believe that he won't, given his conduct so far on this thread.

Regarding the comment about James Shyun's visiting and supporting GM Wei's tomb, I understand how this can be taken as a personal jab. However, I hope people will understand that the key point to the entire sentence/paragraph that clause was found in is this: Yes, 8 Step students outside James Shyun's schools have legitimate grounds for complaint, but James Shyun has also helped 8 Step as a style in several ways that, for a long time, were significant enough to cause GM Wei's students not to complain or cause trouble. The sentence went on to enumerate 2 of these ways James Shyun has benefitted 8 Step, specifically (1) broadening 8 Step's popularity in the U.S. and (2) respecting GM Wei. I should say that, having known Shifu Chang for years, he takes both of these benefits very seriously. He's not just saying this to be nice to James Shyun; he is quite serious when it comes to the future survival and spreading of 8 Step and respect for GM Wei. As you can see, the primary point of the sentence/paragraph was not to personally attack James Shyun, but to tell traditional non-Shyun 8 Step people that, although they may have legitimate grievances with James Shyun, he has also done things to significantly benefit 8 Step as a style and deserves respect.

I hope it's also understood that, in this post, Shifu Chang is riding a razor-thin line between pro- and anti-Shyun "camps" in an effort to replace politics with honest debate and information sharing. He has tried to show the opponents of James Shyun that James Shyun should be respected and credited for the benefits he has brought to 8 Step. At the same time, he has also tried to add facts from his own experience and knowledge that might not be known to students of James Shyun, hoping that James Shyun's students will look to the traditional 8 Step community with an open mind as well. In the end, no one can read this post and be completely happy, but that's not the point of the post. The overarching point of the post is that "us vs. them" politics in the 8 Step community only hurts 8 Step, and all sides deserve respect and open-minded communication.

Regarding 8-step.com, this web site was established so that Shifu Chang could start providing more information about traditional 8 Step and GM Wei. We're hoping to have the web site up and running by early next year at the latest, hopefully sooner. Again, I personally take any blame for the fact that the site has been on hold for so long. Ultimately, the goal is for the site to be friendly to all 8 Step practitioners from all lineages and focus strictly on providing information to help spread knowledge of the style. It won't be a site promoting any particular school or lineage.

WanderingMonk - Thanks for pointing out the oversight of Mr. Wang Jie. I think Shifu Chang's intention was to list 8 Step teachers who have dedicated their lives exclusively to 8 Step, although there are many others who were excellent students of GM Wei who have also studied other styles in addition to 8 Step. As you mentioned, Mr. Wan Jie continues to teach in Taiwan and is a well respected student of GM Wei's.

If anyone else knows of any former students of GM Wei still active in teaching 8 Step, perhaps they could post more information to continue raising awareness of the greater 8 Step community.

[mantid1]

$5000 sifu test (initial franchise fee)?

$100 a month franchise fee.

If the guy gives people the information they need to run a school and produce good students what is the problem? That is a cheap franchise.

If he does not teach the sifu high level information or give the sifu the business info he needs to run a quality school, then that would be a problem.

I think most of the people on the forum would charge the same if not more if they could get it. They just cant get it.

He may be full of it saying that he is the sole inheritor. But we all know how much BS there is among martial arts instructors. I have met so many masters, grand masters, disciples and inheritors of systems it is overwhelming. To many to count.

Im not saying he is not the inheritor, I dont care.

I think everyone should just practice harder instead of posting on political issues.

[Chizica]

Maybe all the Traditional Ba Bu Masters, Shifus, and students can get together with all the Shyun style Shifus and students at some kind of gathering in the near future. Each group can learn from one another and define the difference and similarities between the two, and hopefully walk away with an increased sense of knowledge of what GM Wei originally intended to hand down to the general public as means of passing the style on.

Of course, this could end up being a disaster if hostilities are not curbed. Should this happen, everyone would need to check the Ego at the door and open the mind for learning.

[Pilot]

Thanks for understanding lapu_squared. I just wanted to let you know you have impressed me with your thought-out and respectful comments, rather than coming back with an emotional attack. You are either old or wise, or you have learned some valuable lessons the hard way (like me). This reflects well on your Instructor(s). :)

[EarthDragon]

mantid,
I just want to point out that the 100.00 a month is not a franchise fee.
I own my own school, pay my own bills and that has nothing to do with the ACMAF.

The hundred bucks was originally introduced for all schools to pay for the annual sifu camp for travel and lodging, well the first year we had to pay our own way to get there, adn had to sleep on the floor of the school. then james shyun bought everyone pizza and pop and then took a collection to pay for it!

I thought that was prettty tacky when you had 13 schools paying 100.00 for a year lets see thats over 15,000!!!!!!!! and you cant spring for pizza?

the 5,000 is the testing fee to become a sifu in the sifu program, inother wards an excelerated program desigined to promote futre 100.00 paying schools and more 5,000 testing fee's. you see when I learned it was FREE! I paid 25.00 for my test which was for my embroidered belt and sifu certificate. not to mention the 450.00 sifu uniform, or the 250.00 gold plated mantis pin. this is the problem with todays ACMAF it has sold out and became a MC Kwon......

[mantid1]

I am not against someone training a student and then charging them $5000 to become an instructor. A martial arts school can be a good money maker. Why should someone give that knowledge away just for the student to go out and make money?

It does not sound like he is running this kind of organization. I can see why you and others would be upset with this.

I would be also.

[Ou Ji]

You don't think that 10 years worth of tuition payments is enough?

What exactly would you expect to get for that $5000 fee? Supplies, marketing tools, start-up help? Or is the $5000 just for the privilege of having your school under Master X's banner?

Sounds like you'll be in the hole before you even open for business.

"Why should someone give that knowledge away just for the student to go out and make money?"

Please tell me where I can go to get these free lessons? Who is it that's giving away martial arts knowledge?

[BeiTangLang]

You don't think that 10 years worth of tuition payments is enough?

What exactly would you expect to get for that $5000 fee? Supplies, marketing tools, start-up help? Or is the $5000 just for the privilege of having your school under Master X's banner?

Sounds like you'll be in the hole before you even open for business.

"Why should someone give that knowledge away just for the student to go out and make money?"

Please tell me where I can go to get these free lessons? Who is it that's giving away martial arts knowledge?


Big DITTO!

I could not agree more.

[-N-]

Please tell me where I can go to get these free lessons? Who is it that's giving away martial arts knowledge?Well, that part is not entirely unheard of.

N.

[Ou Ji]

So I've heard. Just wish I could be that lucky.

Seems like i keep running into the big bucks types.

[mantid1]

your ten years worth of tuition payments goes for using the facility that you take classes in, heat, rent,etc... It pays the instructor for his time so that he can be there and not off doing another job to make money. It also pays for you to learn you chosen art.

It does not pay for you to learn how to teach. It does not pay for you learn how to develop different curriculums for adults and children. It does not pay for you to learn how to do accounting, taxes, marketing, the demographics for starting a new school and many other things associated with doing business. It does not pay to teach you how to teach your students how to do all of the things mentioned above so that they can be successful in business and as a martial arts instructor.

If you think that you can become a GOOD instructor or succeed in business by going to class 2 times a week for 10 years you are wrong. I would not want to train with you.

It takes hundreds of extra hours above the norm to take a student to instructor level and teach them to run a successful school. Even after all of that some cant make it. You are making a commitment to the student with your time. Is it wrong to ask for a commitment from them? No.

Why should Joe average student pay the same price as the future instuctor who is getting much more of an education? That would be like you going to work and offering to work for half price.

$5000 is nothing if the instructor does a good job in educating his future instructors. It is a very small investment to learn how to do business and make money honestly.

If more instuctors would teach this way I would have less emails and phone calls asking me how to do business and set up curriculums.

Have a nice day

[LingChuanPai]

I believe we're talking about a MA school here....not a Lawfirm :rolleyes:
Besides....if you cant grip a MA and your sifu's teaching style in ten years then..... come on this is lame
LCP :D

[K.Brazier]

Hi Lapu,
Nice post, thanks for going to the trouble.

John Chang invited me up to The Tomb sweeping ceremony some years ago. It was a nice chance to meet many masters and disciples of the style as well as to join them in paying our respects to a great master.

BTW, for those newer here. I wrote up a detailed post which is somewhere in the archives.

As for the tribute page that Mike Martello got me involved in...I think it is about time to do some updates and translation corrections. Since we made that page I have acquired a lot more Babu information which I believe is completely unknown to non Chinese readers.

kevin

[mantid1]

I dont know why I post and give good info to back yard Martial artists on forums.


A person with this type of attitude is better off staying at seven eleven. But then again it makes me look better when wanna be instructors open up and close down in the first year because their teacher said , "huh, yea you can open a school its worked ok for me in the back yard for the last ten years".


Good luck

[LingChuanPai]

So you're telling me that if someone wants to be successful in running a MA school, you have to "lie", "cheat", and "steal" from your students....basically screw them over??? Correct me if i'm wrong, but I dont think that GM Wei or other great masters had special fee's and special classes to "teach" you how to teach a kids class. To say that someone cant be a good instructor unless they go to a super-duper "McDojo" seminar and pay "X" amount is really aslap in the face to the Masters who have ethics and morals not to screw over their students.... and would rather work another job on the side to do so. Please....$450 or whatever for a Special Kung FU uniform....you can get one just as nice a Jonieuniforms.com my friend.
LCP :rolleyes:

[EarthDragon]

I think perhaps we are getting confused about what is right and what is wrong.

Is it right to charge people exuberous amounts of money becuse you have the only true answer i.e. if you have the only real cure to cancer then I would say yes, charge what ever you can.

If at one time you lead people to believe you had the only true 8 step in the world, and told everyone that you were the golden child, sole inheritor, only closed door diciple, and if you wanted to learn you had to pay these exuberous amounts................. that would be wrong.

Before the internet many of us had no idea that 8 step exsisted other than through james shyun. he told all of us that he was the only true student, adnm mentioend only one other Wei student who lived in taipei.

In those day we didnt mind paying for this information believeing everything he said or testing fee's or federation dues, or even to purchase sashes and certificates through him .

However once we all found out we had been lied to for more than a decade can you not blame us for being bitter? or quittting the ACMAF? or not definding our old teacher when he was attacked?

But yet when people like the new students of students of shyun step up and attack the old ones simply becuse they havent felt like THEY have been lied to or possible just still with the wool over thier eyes are we not to get angry?

they say thier is no stronger bond then shrfu to tudi. even parent to child. well imagine finding out your parent lied to you for 14 years..........

Get this, I was the HQ for all the schools in NY in 1997 even was named as the most succsseful school in the school spotlight of 8 step news letter,
(check the news clippings button on my website) but then becuse I wouldnt send a check for 15,000 to james shyun and enroll my 3 top students in the newly created "sifu program" I was stripped of my HQ status.

Then when I stoped paying federation dues after I found out that the money went into james shyun pocket instead for travel and lodging for the sifu camp. My name was taken of his webiste and not even recognized as a sifu under him.

I did love him and everything he taught me, however i am more dissappointed and hurt by him than anything else. I respect his knowledge and his willingness to spread 8 step as lapu stated but i felt he went about greedily and the wrong way, just be honest and humble, these are a few great qualities of a true teacher.

[mantid1]

lingchuanpai

You obviously think I am connected with this shyun guy. I am not. I dont care about him. He does sound dishonest.

I did not mention cheating anyone. I just said that if you want a student to succed as an instructor then you need to give them the tools they need to do the job. My extra energy spent teaching them in the form of time deserves a return of their energy in some sort. That usually comes down to money. They had to work and use their energy to make money to repay me for my spent energy, time.

Everyone has to win. The student and instructor.

If you would stop worrying about how bad shyun is and read the posts for what they are you may get some good info.

And last, the only reason the masters set up the "kung fu family" relationship is for control. I never fell for that one.



Earth Dragon

It seems you and I are on the same page. I agree with what you say.

I wish I had knew you where in Buffalo. I was just there this weekend. Would like to have met you. Maybe next time.

[LingChuanPai]

mantid1
maybe we got off on the wrong foot or something, but I never connected you with Shyun or said his name until now. I was simply stating that the actions stated above and thru-out are very low and without ethic. Things like this would make people believe that CMA are corrupted by money hungry people-whether they're good or not....one can still go "down the street" to another teacher. Maybe i miss understood you, but I said that people are teaching MA not starting a Lawfirm....I totally believe that a student can and will set up personal lessons with their sifu, if it interests them so. Sure they should be charged for the sifu's time for teaching them on the side. But...c'mon.....would you agree to paying $400+ for a uniform that you can buy for like $80...or pay $5000 to be listed on a website pay for a flight to a convetion and sleep on the floor and served pizza-then asked to pay for it? It sounds like Mr Shyun has been quite successful in marketing his brand of babu tanglang. I dont dislike the guy....but I do dislike his claims and unethical dealings with his students. Frankly I wouldnt be able to sleep at night. Like Earthdragon, I would feel betrayed and lied to, if my Sifu did that. Dont know why I really care, in fact I dont..... but i'm just adding my 2 cents in this forum cuz that's what it's here for :D
LCP Politics ::sheesh::

[mantid1]

I am talking about paying for top quality training as and instructor.

No need to discuss paying $400 for a uniform.

[yu shan]

Took you a little hiatus from posting didn`t ya mate... welcome back.

Man... wish I could get a few paying me 5 grrr for training! I personally have spent thousands over the years, it was worth it. Now I do not have the luxury of throwing cash around, every penny counts. I am fortunate to have an understanding Shifu. When the dust settles, I will take care of him. Besides, it is hard just to get regular tuition out of people these days, times are ruff.

$400 for a uni is sick.

[mantid1]

I couldnt take it anymore Yushan.

I had to step in and speak up for high quality instructors like yourself.

I know you arnt charging 5g but I am sure you give your potential instructors the education they need to be successfull.

I only charge $399.99 for my sifu uniforms.

The secret book is 5000. It is written in invisible ink and can only be read when the student has reached enlightenment.

[EarthDragon]

mantid,
Come on you were in Buffalo and you did not look me up? too bad I would have loved to have met with you and invited you to our school. What in God's name were you doing in Buffalo? I shouldnt say that our city has lots of charm and this summer has been over 90 degrees all summer so its not that bad. but please if you ever make it this way again please contact via our website...

I had a deaf student for years. and although he was handicapped and could not work perse he paid for his lessons in other ways. He was great with computers so he would work on the website, newsletter and various other chores.

I also had a student from the projects who had 7 sisters and brothers, and would ride his bike and just sit and watch the class, finally I asked him why he didnt join and he told me his mother could not afford it. So I made a deal with him. I told him that I enjoyed a certian kind of tea that could only be found at "feelrite" health food stores which I knew was out of his way but I told him to bring me a cup with 1 tea bag in it to every class he attended and I would warm it in the microwave after class and that would be his tuition.

I then called my friend at he store and paid for the whole box but never told my student so he thought it was just free.

You see its not the money its the commitment. Once we put a dollar sign on martial art that comminment can be bought and sold like a commodity.

This is not good, what are our goals as teachers? to become rich because of our knowledge? I never paid much for my knowledge from james shyun, he never even charged me for classes and I lived at the school for over a year. I did clean the school and wash his car do errands and various chores but I never paid 5,000 for my test. Why should that have changed? why should I charge 5,000 to my students.

What broke my heart was when one of my long time students asked me if the only way to become a sifu in 8 step was to pay for it.........I said no hard work, practice and commimment will make you into a sifu, is not something that you can buy its something you earn.

This has been a problem for years, why exploit the art for finacial gain? are we that materialistic? I am not saying if you own a school not to charge, but realize things are more important and worth value than money. Hell I have owned and ran a school for 9 years. it holds it own somethimes it loses money but I teach out of love of the arts not to make a living, I have a job for that.

Go ahead make money to support your school, but theres a problem when you want to become a millionaire from cheating, lieing and deciving people. be well.........

[mantid1]

Earth dragon

I agree.

I just worked a deal for a student to be able to take the extra classes and privates for instructor level. He does not have the money. So I am paying him $20 an hour to help me with classes. We both win and no money will be exchanged.

I have many people coming to my school for free. I have many more that has not had their tuition raised in 9 years, even though my rent and operating expenses have gone up.

If a person comes home from the war over seas they can come to a my school for free for a time untill they can get back on their feet financially. Same goes for their family.

I get cheated every month by students. And I mean EVERY month.

I make the comittment to run a school full time when I left a good job. I dont see a problem asking for a comittment from a student.

I know what you are talking about. I have also been ripped off by instuctors.



I was up looking at the big water.

[EarthDragon]

exactly, thats the problem, when you buy something you place monetary value on that item. like hey I bought this for 5 bucks and it broke! that sucks, but if someone gave it to you and it broke its no big deal. WHY the difference? because of the root of all evil.................... MONEY

I would like to think things cannot be bought, love, friends, knowldge, integrity, judges politicians............ OK just kidding but you get the point. Some things just should not be bought.

awwwwwwwwwww big water,native american for Niagara Falls.... I hope you went to the Canadian side and Clifton hill. America has nothing on Canada when it comes to the Falls. shame but all we have is the casino...... and its owned by the naive maericans, goos for them, its about time we gave these people something back after taking over thier country.

[Mighty Mungbean]

Perhaps I am bit late for this coversation but I too would like to add my two cents. I am a student of 8 Step here in lovely Birmingham, Alabama. I have been with this group for almost two years now. We are a very small school, there are six of us regulars, including Sifu, and occasional others who come and go. My own contact with martial arts is admittedly limited (I do live in Alabama after all) but I'm no dummy. I started Yang taiji ten years ago, I have experience with Chen style and baqua, I spent time studying Shorin-ryu karate and some time doing a little Hung Gar. Most of this training has been with individuals. The Shorin-Ryu experience being my first contact with a school and an established system. There I witnessed a lot of infighting as various martial artists jockeyed over egos and status.

I can say in all honesty that my time spent with 8 Step has been immensely rewarding. My Sifu is a man of utmost integrity, who has earned my loyalty and trust. I feel the $40 a month I pay in dues to be absolutely worth the training I get. That training has paid off in many areas of my life, not only in terms of my other martial interests.

I do not know Grandmaster Shyun. I have not met him or any of the other Sifus in the 8 Step system. I do know my Sifu and I know that my Sifu is a product of Master Shyun's training. That speaks highly of Master Shyun and for now is all I need to know. From what I've read in these posts it seems to me that Master Shyun's greatest crime is trying to make a living from his art. It seems to me that most of us place such spiritual importance on our arts that we feel it must be sullied if it also brings us a paycheck.

Master Shyun is a non-native American trying to use American marketing techniques to perpetuate his art. Of course he would be clumsy about it, imagine your own efforts trying to sell hamburgers in Beijing or Taiwan. Exclusivity is the cornerstone of any major marketing campaign. "Buy it here! This is the only place you can get it!" If that's not the case then we move to, "Buy it here! This is the best!" As Americans this is ingrained into how we do business. Why should Master Shyun be any different?

I have come to learn that money is a form of energy just like anything else. That a fair exchange of energy is how things are supposed to work in this life and that money has become our shorthand way of facillitating that exchange. Earth Dragon, you and others have show examples of other forms of exchange and these are valid.

Ed, you also point to Master Shyun accepting and perpetuating other forms of exchange. Perhaps his request for money and dues is a way of asking you to step up to a new level. Afterall, if you are able to pay these dues does that not mean that you are required to make more money (read raise your energy reserves)? To comfortably be able to pay increased dues means that you must raise your overall income to a new level. Is it bad to ask sifus to increase their overall abilities and not just their martial ones? Isn't the hallmark of a good sifu a well rounded person, elevated in many areas of expertise not just fighting?

Bruce Lee did us a disservice liguistically when he introduced kung fu to mean martial art. Kung fu is hard work over time and applies to any area of expertise. My sifu exhibits kung fu in all aspects of his life. He's one of the few men I look to and say, "Man, I want to be more like that." If he looks to Master Shyun and sees a man worth following then I can rest confident that he is a man of merit and I am honored to be allowed to learn and help perpetuate his art.

Out of love for our arts,
Dave Hall

[Pilot]

Welcome to the Forum Mighty Mungbean! :D

May the bird of paradise never roost above your head. :p

[K.Brazier]

Hi dave,
Sounds like you are enjoying your classes, glad to hear it.
FTR, Taiwan uses American Marketing methods and know how to operate fast food places as well as many other businesses.

The only difference is that there is no red tape to slow you down.

EG. I opened some shops here. After a while the tax guy comes by, all by himself, and says you need to fill out these forms for taxes.

Me,"I just opened the place a couple of months, I'm not making a penny(he came by in downtime) I don't have left over cash to pay taxes what kind of deal you people running?"

Him,"No hurry, when ever you have time just return these papers."

Besides that it is a copy of American style methods.

Kevin

[K.Brazier]

A friend asked some interesting questions. I will address them here.

<< I noticed you where planning on updating Grand Master Wei's page, Firstly that is without a doubt the best 8 Step page I've seen,>>

Thank you.

<< I was wondering if there was more to the history,>>

For a start, there is Wei Xiaotang's sonnet of his teachers and meetings with remarkable men.

<<as it was my understanding 8 step is an off shoot of Mei Hua,>>

I would phrase it differently. 8 step is descended from Jiang Hualong's version of Mantis.


<< Also do you have any information on the Grand Master between Master Wei and Jian Hua Long, I believe his name was Feng Huan Yi.>>

Feng Haunyi taught Wei for several years.
As far as I know there is nothing more to say about Feng Huanyi unless some of the older students have some stories.
There is a story about feng Huanyi from Wei's student Zuo Xianfu which I wrote up somewhere in the archives here.
On comparing notes of the same stories passed down to different people it can be seen that the changes with the retellings can be quite drastic. Not just for Mantis, but as a principle in general.

<< I'm very curious to the orgins, and factual accounts of the art (obviously the art itself as well). >>

Me too.
It has been my observation that the old school teachers don't give a hoot about this.
Some teachers care for the effectiveness and will change it to suit them. How do we know this is true?
Mantis that descends from a common branch now has great variations.
The linking thread is based on the effectiveness of the method of fighting.

My Shifu told me that when he asked some of his shifus questions regarding history they had little care to answer.
In part because they weren't schooled in the history of Mantis, becuase of not having read Huang Hanxun's books and having only learned the art and skills orally.
Also, becuase they had recently left a devastating civil war. The civil war of China in conjunction with WW2 in China saw atrocities which makes the worst of Iraq look like a picnic.

Here is an example from my family:

One of my shiyes, Sun Longzai, told of how the soldiers had to dig shallow graves for those thought to be communists or enemies. Then the enemies had to crawl head first into the graves as dirt was shoveled over their heads. Their bodies were buried deep enough so that they couldn't get out, but not so deep so that the soldiers could see them moving their legs for many hours.

"Why?" I asked.
"To save bullets." I was told.

Don't forget that those native to Shandong who came to Taiwan were KMT soldiers who had just been engaged in a horrible war lasting over 10 years pitting the Japanese, communists and KMT against each other.
After 1945, when WW2 was over the fighting between the communists and KMT continued on its bloody course for another four years.

Seeing how American's in Iraq have difficulty dealing with returning to civilian life, so I have heard, imagine how difficult it must have been for the soldiers who made it to Taiwan.
Most of their family was missing or dead. their ancestral graves destroyed. A new province where the locals all spook a foriegn tongue making Chinese unintelligable to each other.

I believe that recalling the past wouldn't be something they would choose to do for fun.

Also, not all the old masters had any desire to pass on their art. Some would pass it on to only one, while others took it to the grave.
Students of Eight Step are lucky in this rgard, as Master Wei taught ina more open fashion.

In the Mantis Rules of Pugilism it is said that you should find worthy disciples to transmit your art to, but for many masters in Taiwan this was just not possible.

But it is not all bad news. There were manuscripts of hundreds of pages which have been preserved in some branches of Mantis.
Wei Xiaotang didn't have these, but he wrote out new manuscripts detailing his style.

Manuscripts for all his forms and weapons forms. methods of training. Attitude philosophy. Many written in sonnet form and almost completely unknown to the west.

I'll start adding more of this to the web page.


From what I have seen and learned of 8 step Mantis, it matches closely other Mantis styles such as Mei hua, Mimen, Taiji, 7*, but each having their unique differences.

For the most part the differences are based on the master who taught the style.
So, to compare 8 Step to a style such as Mimen, at comparing forms they are drastically different, but in comparing fighting methods you would find that they are the same style based on the number of similarites.
This holds for 7*, Taiji and Meihua as well.

Kevin

[EarthDragon]

Mungbean,
thank you for your post and you point of view. Fistly your sifu Peter ray, or baby face ray as they call him at the hospital is my dear friend and kung fu brother.

I have much respect for him, but realize he was not trained by master shyun directly and never lived in SF but did occasionaly vist shyun there. he actually learned form sifu dean economos my first sifu, before I learned directly frim Shyun. The last time I saw peter was many years ago in SF actually while doing his residence for plastic surgery.

I do not believe peter has ever voiced and opionon about the situation and remains neutral and just keeps on teaching for the love of kung fu and I respect that.

But while you do make some points perhaps you cannot evaluate the whole situation without having been there from the beginning and seen it turn into what it is now.

It is OK to make a living , but when you lie about who you are in order to get ahead in life then theres a problem.

[mantid1]

Great post Kevin!

Paints a very clear picture and makes the fighting about lineage seem even more silly. There are much bigger problems in the world.




Earhdragon

Peole who lie always get caught or called on their claims. Seems this is the case.

[EarthDragon]

mantid1,
very true, however when you lie once, to one person it hurts thier feelings.

However when you lie to hundreds for years it does more than just hurt feelings....

[Mighty Mungbean]

"However when you lie to hundreds for years it does more than just hurt feelings...." -- Earth Dragon

Wow, that's a quite an indictment. What were Master Shyun's crimes again? Claiming to be the sole inheritor of Eight Step, charging $450 for a sifu's uniform, charging yearly dues and not springing for pizza during sifu training. There was also a point mentioned about a lack of respect for Grandmaster Wei in not attending a grave tending ceremony.

I guess the only one's worth mentioning are the claim for sole inheritorship and the lack of repect. All the rest allude to being cheap. Being cheap, no matter how unpleasant is no crime. Can anyone testify as to how he spends his money? Nigerian hookers? Cocaine? Weapons of Mass Destruction? If not, gee that sucks, it'd been nice to spring for the pies, especially since you guys were working so hard, but hardly worth slamming th e entire system.

I find it interesting in all this discussion that no one has mentioned what is well known in our school, that Master Shyun owes his life to Grandmaster Wei. Every biography I've seen, every history of Master Shyun, there's even an entire chapter in _Ancient Ways for Modern Times_, tells of how Master Wei took a five year old Shyun bedridden and without hope and kept him for a year. Tending him and building his strength, Master Wei spent a year curing him with herbs, massage, accupuncture and qigong.

Before I go on I must point out someone mentioned Master Wei not having healing knowledge evidenced by his inability to heal himself late in life. This serves at least a minor source of contradiction. So I ask, does anyone have concrete evidence that the story of Master Wei healing a five year old Shyun is false?

Assuming, as I do, that the story of Shyun's recovery is true, would you not agree then that that event would have triggered a deeper relationship between the two men? A sifu/student relationship is emotionally charged as it is (witness ED's bitter feeling's toward Master Shyun as evidence). How much more charged would that be if that Sifu were not only your first teacher (five is a highly impressionable age) but the man that saved your life? Especially, when no one else could. Given that I live as an outsider to this relationship I feel in no way qualified to comment on to what degree Master Shyun shows respect to GM Wei. I do, however, see how Master Shyun might feel a certain level of proprietariness to GM Wei. Given how I have already come to feel about my sifu, I can only imagine how Shyun might feel about Grandmaster Wei. I can certainly imagine the disgust with which he might view a bunch of kungfu geeks speculating and arguing over his relationship with Wei and the legtimacy of his claims.

I understand that there was at least one lawsuit dealing with Master Shyun's proprietary claim. There was some minor squabbling about it but no one ever came forth to provide definitive closure. Our understanding, here in Birmingham, is that Master Shyun won his lawsuit and the right to claim sole inheritorship. If anyone can provide proof otherwise please let me know

Earth Dragon, I understand you have hurt feelings concerning master Shyun. I hear that you feel betrayed and let down by him. As a student of 8 Step, however, I don't really like you dissing my style in such public manner unanswered. I have no emotional investment in Master Shyun, but I do have one in 8 step. I'm sure you'd understand were the situation reversed.

I make no claims that 8 Step Mantis is the best of anything. It is the best for me right now. I'm a better man for it and for as long as it provides that service it has my loyalty. Lineage is a source of history. It is a legacy of learning meant to inspire students, not be a source of "My master's master could kick your master's master's ass."

In light of this I offer full respect to the claims of Sifu John Chan and the other students of Master Wei. Whatever prize Master Shyun lays on being able to claim sole inheritorship I do not feel diminshes in anyway the knowledge gained as a student of Master Wei or the places held by these practitioners in the overall history of Mantis. Perhaps the first mistake was having touted "sole inheritor" as a prize worth having in the first place. As practitioners of kungfu we are perpetuators of an art. Our sole purpose in this regard is to insure that these arts live on. Emphasize your focus on your art and worry less over who's who to whom. As far as I'm concerned the greatest merit of a cool lineage is being able to tell cool stories. Are we really willing to squabble so over who gets the coolest stories?

With Respect,
Dave

[mantid1]

Good points. Maybe the grandmaster may have tried his chinese medicine and it didnt work. Then he tried the other style. Just because he may have known Chinese medicine does not mean it would work for his ailment or that he would live forvever. People still die in China.

[Pilot]

Good points. Maybe the grandmaster may have tried his chinese medicine and it didnt work. Then he tried the other style. Just because he may have known Chinese medicine does not mean it would work for his ailment or that he would live forvever. People still die in China.

Huh? :confused:

Could someone translate?

[EarthDragon]

Mighty Mungbean,

For the record I NEVER EVER "dissed" as you say 8 step. I love the system and still teach it everyday for the past 9 years.

I realize tht you are new to the system and have the right to defend your beliefs but please know the whole story before you chime into something on a public forum which as much below the surface.

Your feeding into the syhun sick child thing IS NOT TRUE. how do I know?

1. I met Shyuns father. and he laughed when I mentioned the story. he told me james had Pneumonia. Also he was not a general in the ROC army but a gardener in the local high school in taipei.

2. I met shyuns brother years beofre and the smae thing was brought up.

3. Master Wei did not know TCM nor was he a O.M.D

4. Shyun met master Wei when he was 8 years old not before.

5. master Wei never lived in the mountains. There are no liveable mountians in taiwan like there is in China.

So please dont just read shyuns website and be lead to beleive it is true.

[mantid1]

One person said that wei taught them medicine, another said the he did know chinese medicine and did not try to heal himself with it when he was sick.

sorry to confuse you.

[yu shan]

Mantid1

Yea, you almost sounded vasquez-like there for a moment. ;)

EarthDragon

No jab intended here, but what do you mean by there are no liveable mountains in Taiwan?

[mantid1]

Yeah Yushan I know. Sometimes I throw a fast post it between sets (like now) and just dont seem to get the point accross.

No one listens to what others have to say on the forums anyway, so it doesnt matter :)

[EarthDragon]

yu shan,
In the city of Taipei, where james shyun lived, his story goes that master Wei lived in the mountains. From what I have been told by serveral people taiwanese and americans that live there or have visited there are no liveable mountains in that part of the country like there is in ROC.

Master Wei was a cook in the kitchen at the local high school he did not live like a hermit in the mountains miles away from the city.

Although the story sounds like that of a fictional martial art movie much of the history as taught by James shyun has many holes in it, but again we were all lead to beleive these stories for years .... why wouldnt you believe everything your teacher tells you?
Again I love james shyun (my shrfu) and respect him for what he has taught me. I just want to tell the truth and set the stories straight.

I am not saying he is not a great teacher/father or martial artist. I am just telling the truth.... be mad at me if you will but the truth is the tuth and no one can get mad at me for telling it......... get mad at the guys who lie.

possibly kevin B could attest to the liveablility of the taipei mountains.

And do you think that even if master wei lived in a shack in the mountains and ate plain rice while meditating everyday he would ride his bike back and forth 40 miles to work at the school everyday?

[Forkintheroad]

"I find it interesting in all this discussion that no one has mentioned what is well known in our school, that Master Shyun owes his life to Grandmaster Wei. Every biography I've seen, every history of Master Shyun, there's even an entire chapter in _Ancient Ways for Modern Times_, tells of how Master Wei took a five year old Shyun bedridden and without hope and kept him for a year."

Is there any proof of that? A picture mabey, Some friends of Master Wei's that can back that, or did Master Wei not talk to anyone for that entire year?

[EarthDragon]

fork in the road, I think we have covered that...........Mighty mungbean was simply going by what he had read on james shyun's website. While some of the history is true much is embelished.

[K.Brazier]

Taiwan, which is where the ROC now resides, is covered in mountains.
There is a flat plain in the southwest where I live though.

The tallest mountains require a permit to enter and they are somewhat dangerous.
Though south of FL it snows there and there is a bit of skiing.
Some areas in the mountains are off limits to taiwanese as they are reserves for aborigines.
Generally these areas are not very large. To enter you need another permit.

When the mainlanders came to Taiwan they were housed in newly built military housing.
To this day the housing is still there and still filled with mainlanders.
It was free or close to free, military housing.

The higher your station in the military the better your housing.
It is extremely unlikely that a mainlander from the north of China would want to live anywhere but his designated military housing.

Why?
They had been in an extremely bitter war with the Japanese until 1945.
From 1895 until 1945 all Taiwanese were Japanese, not quite citizen's, but definetly not Chinese, with the exception of their culture.

The school systems only taught in Japanese so the 2 common languages were Japanese and Taiwanese.
When the mainlanders came to Taiwan there were many problems resulting in some riots, torture and deaths.

After the country was united in a common economic purpose the cross cultural hatred faded away, or dissenters were jailed, since Taiwan was under Martial Law until the 80's.

My shifu traveled to the different military housing units to search out different styles of kung fu.

Many other Taiwanese went there to taste "foriegn" food.
The other day I went there for a Shandong steamed bun.
About the size of a softball, but the weight of a basketball. Real tradional food.

When he searched the mountains of Taiwan most, if not all the masters were native Taiwanese.

Mike, where did you meet Shyun's father?

Kevin

[EarthDragon]

Thanks for the information Kevin. I have heard from my qigong teacher and others as well as you have said before that the mountains were not liveable in taipei in the same respect like they are in China.

I met James Shyun father at his house for dinner in the SF bay are shortly before I left SF in 1996 and unfortunaly was there again at his fathers passing and attended the funeral. My fist shrfu Dean was one of the pallbearers.

[Mighty Mungbean]

Hmm, I just don't get to post as often as I would like. Pesky things like work and family seem to get in the way. :rolleyes:

Earth Dragon, it seems I am incapable of keeping to my own claims. In class I was the first to point out that I didn't really care whether the claims addressed here were true or not. I had not joined a cult of Shyun but a kung fu school and as long as I was learning and improving, what did I care. I tried to convey as much in my posts, pointing out possible explanations and asking what I thought were appropriate questions.

I have no answer to the claims of falsehood you put forth about Master James Shyun. I don't know him and therefore can't ask him. I will talk to my sifu about those claims, but regardless how they are answered I have no intentions of leaving my school at this point or over this particular matter.

As a point of persnicketiness I will note that I think you do "diss" my style when you speak maliciously of Master Shyun. Master Shyun is the head of this particular system. His reputation sets the tone or is the focal point to which others look. The claims you make are rather damming and I hope you can support them as falsehoods repeated in this manner are often seen as slander.

I would ask, however, why it is that you repeat these same "falsehoods" on your own site. The story of Shyun's recovery is repeated not just on his website but in several of the books he has published. As I said before there is an entire chapter in _Ancient Ways for Modern Times_. I believe that this page on your site (http://www.eightstep.com/kungfu.php) is taken directly from Master Shyun's site. At any rate you seem to have failed to correct the "inaccuracies" contained there. Here are a few quotes:

"Wei Hsiao Tang took the young child with him to his home. There, around his home in the mountains, Wei Hsiao Tang busied himself gathering herbs and preparing medicines. Taking one full year Wei Hsiao Tang was able to completely cure the boy...Shyun Kwong Long was six when he began training in martial arts. Twelve years later he was a strong, young man ready for his first big fight...Once he had completed his training under Wei Hsiao Tang and inherited the Eight Step Praying Mantis system at the age of 26...In 1990 Grandmaster James Sun (the sole inheritor of the Eight Step Praying Mantis System) made the decision to further protect the system..."

If this information is so patently false why have you not bothered to correct it on your site? I have no wish to devolve this into a flamewar (if it's not already too late). I wish for a community in which all practitioners can flourish and sincerely hope that this discussion does not preclude that wish.

As a student of kung fu truth is important to me. No one wants to waste his time chances false promises and false ideals. I bring up these questions in light of that search for truth, but I will also point out, my children beleive in Santa Claus. Hell, I believe in Santa Claus, even if I do know it to be a lie. So you can see, there are some lies worth having around. Sometimes they make greater truths easier to see.

With respect,
Dave

[EarthDragon]

Mighty munbean,
No worries...... I truley understand where you coming from and you sound like a great guy, and am in no way upset or mad about anything you have said.

I would like to point out however when you said..............
As a point of persnicketiness I will note that I think you do "diss" my style when you speak maliciously of Master Shyun.

Please realize this is no one's style... just because he copy righted the name Shyun 8 step does not make 8 step owned by him nor any one individual.
Just as Donald Trump copy righted the words YOUR FIRED! Does this mean he owns those words of the English language?

I have been in 8 step since 1989. And I have to right to voice my opinon and attempt to set the record straight about what is the truth and what is not.
8 step is the style in which I have spent the last 16 years of my life learning, teaching and loving so please dont say I dissed "YOUR" style.

I have left the federation for the politics and problems in it. And wish to reamain out of the fireing line and out fo the BS that surrounds it from its unevidable karma. This is the very reason 8 sifus have left james shyun and his federation and one of them has been a student for almost 20 years who now learns from John Chang. the same guys who actually taught YOUR sifu..........

I teach out of love for the art and the system and my students.... for it is them I truley care about not what he said or she said stuff.
This is why I could not tell 5 of my students every year they had to enroll in a 5,000 program in order to be ranked as a sifu in 8 step. This is perposterous! do i sell out now? or charge them 450.00 for thier uniform? what next 200.00 sifu shoes?

Hard work dedication and practice will make you become a sifu not buying your rank. Hell if we sucome to this then we are no better than the tae kwon do school down the street with a little tigers black belt program for 3-5 year olds....

However I will, knowing the truth step up and tell people. And the newbies with the wool over thier eyes and 5,000 poorer who just recently joined the ACMAF can be mad if they want to but realize they are trying to justify why they spent 5 grand to learn something that shouldnt cost more than any other lesson.........

be well and train from peter, he is a great teacher and a great guy . Go to class learn a lot but keep your school small and your money in your pocket.

[Pilot]

Isn’t it amazing what palatable sounding steaming piles of ambrosia can be crafted when mixed with a little truth? ;)