Kettlebells

[Battosai]

Hello Everyone,

I am interested if anyone is using Kettlebells as part of their training. I just recently started looking into these as a training tool. Are they as effective as they sound? I am also having trouble finding somewhere to get one from in Ontario Canada. Any help or direction would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance :)

[fa_jing]

they are very effective but you need instruction to be able to perform the exercises properly. It also takes about a month of practice to really get going with them. I suggest you introduce yourself over at http://forum.dragondoor.com

if you have any KF -specific questions, go ahead and ask them here. -FJ

[FooFighter]

Bat,

I am glad to see people interest in kettlebell training. I have used dragondoor's
kettllebells in the past with good results. In the future (three months from now) I will cycle them with my CST when I am off my current training cycle. I am planning to earn my master of sport in ICS (International Clubbell Sport). In my opinion, Pavel's Kettlebells and methodology is top notch. Beware of wantabees Kettlebell companies who have copied the success of Pavel. In the end, Kettlebells are indeed effective and fun. If you are a martial artist then you find that KBs are great tool for Sport Specific Preparedness phase of your program design. It is worth the investment and can become very addictive once you get some serious work behind it. FaJing already given some information on where you can get your
KBs. I wish you much success on your goals. If you have questions, we are here to help you.

Yours in CST,
Bao

[Battosai]

Excellent

thanks for the replies. they sound exactly what i am looking for. what is CST? i am very interested in learning other strength training ways that dont involve pumping weights at the gym. i did the whole weightlifter thing for years and now i am searching for methods that utilize multiple muscle groups together (instead of isolating specific muscles like a bicep curl). I want something that compliments my kungfu not detracts from it. There is a statement on that website somewhere about the fat burning potential of the Kettlebells being amazing, that is uses Panaerobic (i think that was the term), i am not entirely sure what that is (i only know aerobic and anerobic).

Thanks again!!!

[Chief Fox]

Bat, dragondoor is a great place for information but I wouldn't buy a kettlebell from them. They are just too expensive. Here are two other places where you can get kettlebells for almost half the cost of Dragondoor.

GILL Athletics (http://www.gillathletics.com/gillCatalogItem.aspx?subItem=526)

Everything Track and Field (http://www.everythingtrackandfield.com/detail.aspx_Q_ID_E_4277_A_CategoryID_E_313)

Here's a place where you can get information on Kettlebell exercises. Of course, nothing beats getting good one one instruction. Bodybuilding.com (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kettlename.php)

Good luck

[wellwisher]

Visit

http://www.superherostrength.com/pages/1/index.htm

which boasts "Our kettlebells are made in Ontario"

Best of luck with your training...

[fa_jing]

The flat handle design shown in the last link is not good, IMO

[Battosai]

Hello Fa_Jing,

Why is it that you dont like the flat handle design? Does it place more stress/strain on the wrist itself?

Thanks
scott

[fa_jing]

couple of things. Round design is more forgiving since when you are in motion, the momentum of the bell along with the curve of the handle tends to shift the bell so that you are gripping it in the center. Secondly, there is no way to grip the bells shown by the sides of the horn, which is important for pistols, hack squats. By way of comparison, the adjustable kettlebells from www.uskettlebells.com have a flat horn, but have space on the sides that facilitates grabbing the kettlebell with both hands from the side.

[stricker]

So hey, i just picked up a 16kg one on the cheap. So, whats the good stuff then?

Also, has anyone seen steve cotters full kontact, it seems really martial arts specific especially rooting and stuff he comes from a xingyi and bagua background which is fairly similar to wing chun. Has anyone seen it? Any recommendation?

[Vajramusti]

" he comes from a xingyi and bagua background which is fairly similar to wing chun."

I beg to differ-they are quite different arts.

joy chaudhuri

[fa_jing]

I've trained with Steve on a couple occasions. I haven't seen his DVD but I learned the material from him. It is good, but basic kettlebell movement training is the priority for you. Get the Russian Kettlebell Challenge DVD from dragondoor.

Actually, Steve teaches the basics very well in person. He's going to Russia this year to compete in internation kettlebell lifting sport, actually.

[stricker]

that's fine joy (varjamusti) of course they are different i guess i like to see what arts have in common as well as their differences. I thought some of the hsing yi power generation mechanics were very similar to wing chun, and i saw things in bagua very similar too. A basic drill off a punch was almost identical, and they have wing chun neutral stance in the middle of the first palm change, so i imagine there are superficial similarities as well as deep similarities. If anything what i saw in hsing yi is in wing chun, and what i saw in bagua is in wing chun too, and a lot of people do both, which i imagine would look a lot like wing hun in combat both direct and indirect. (i also see most stuff in muay thai and wrestling in wing chun too hahaha) anyway this is pretty irrelevant my question was that on the dvd is advertised stuff like :


Develop "root"— strengthening your connection to the ground via the legs to increase full body linkage

sounds like wing chun to me, and bagua and hsing yi!

i guess i could just say what wing chun has in common with bagua and hsing yi is its an internal martial art but then it all gets a bit wiff waff whats internal or external and all that bs. as a wing chun head i'd rather learn to lift weights from a hsing yi bagua dude than a bodybuilder, you know what i'm saying?

[QuaiJohnCain]

Kettlebells certainly are EXTREMELY effective tools for developing strength, power, speed, and rootedness. If you can have someone show you how to do the excercises, you will immediately feel the transfer of how slinging these things around has on martial power/body mechanics. I own a pair of the US Adjustables, they're just great. The round handle issue is easily solved with some athletic tape, but I never bothered, I don't mind the flat handle.


Stricker- As Fa-Jing said, you want to start with the basics on the dragondoor DVD before attacking the martial stuff on Steve's DVD. You will also want to get a second kettlebell if you want to do Steve's stuff. Concerning WC/IMA similarities: Clearly you are comparing based on visuals. Bagua is so far away from WC I don't know where to start to try and explain (one start is that there's no punching in Bagua). Xingyi and WC are similar in thier combat philosophy- go forward, take the center, bam. Power generation is COMPLETELY different, and you will need a good Xingyi teacher to show you those differences. Rooting principles are similar, but Xingyi's traing methods to get it are much better. On that note, the basic WC stance is considered quite flawed and weak by Xingyi's standards. Those pigeon toed foot positions make you a sitting duck unless you have good footwork...

As for the Internal/External thing, the issue is quite cut and dry, black and white. The notion comes from the chinese terms "NeiJia" (internal family)and "Waijia" (external family). The first time these terms were applied to martial arts was in 1892 when Cheng Ting Hua (a famous Bagua master) collaborated with other teachers of Bagua, Taiji, and Xingyi. They, and they only were the first to label ONLY the styles of Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji as "NeiJia". All other CHINESE styles were coined "WaiJia". So by the coiner's definition, Wing Chun is indeed WaiJia. Martial arts styles from other nations were not even being discussed, so unless it's chinese, NO style is WaiJia or NeiJia.

[stricker]

QuaiJohnCain,

thanks for the info and advice.

i didnt know that about neija and weija thanks. a lot of people say wing chun is an internal system, perhaps what they really mean is it shares some common attributes with the other 'neija' arts.

a few little things though, dont take this as an attack or argument, i'm just saying...

not all of us stand there in THE wing chun stance like muppets waiting to get hit. its used mainly for training. also theres adduction going on which means we can explode pretty quickly from all the different stances.

wing chun strategy isnt just go straight in the centre, we only do that if the way is clear. we go round the outside too to take the back, very similar to some bagua i have been shown. its in the wooden dummy footwork and i think the knife form as well. I did a bagua combat drill that was almost identical to wing chun. yeah the spiralling etc is totally different though so of course your right. ps wing chun neutral stance is in the middle of the first palm change haha!

funny that i was shown one of the hsing yi 5 fists (i think beng quan or maybe it was pi i cant remember v.well) by a very good hsing yi teacher, it was almost identical to a wing chun punch. that was NOT by visual but by feeling, i put my hands on his back to feel.

also ive been shown the hsing i forward stance by a wing chun teacher, a bit unusual, but still...

no punching in bagua - thats a superficial comparison too! theres only 2 or 3 punches in the SNT form in wing chun, and like 8 or so different palm strikes, so...

anyway, sure im outgunned in terms of knowledge so rip me apart hahaha! just remember theres a lot of differences around in the wing chun world so it can be hard to make generalisations who knows maybe my teachers full of it hahaha! ultimately none of this is that important, its about learning skills!

cheers!

[AndrewS]

Stricker,

Don't sweat the XY/BG/WCK similarity/difference thing. Some people see radical differences, others great overlap. PM me for some funny details.

I've had good friends who've trained in the neijia and have done a little time there myself, and have compared notes for most of my time training. It's good stuff, and if you have access to good people, get together, play around, and trade ideas every few months, it'll do nothing but good.

The hip-pop from k-bells is used in a variety of strikes in boxing, XY, and WCK. XY is supposedly derived from battlefield spear work with each of the fists relating to a spear exercise, which can serve as a conditioning tool. As there are a limited number of ways to move 10' of lumber around quickly, those people that think this is a good idea (XY, WCK, baiji, chen taiji, european long weapons work) tend to have core similarities of movement in my experience.

BTW- neijia/waijia= some guys in a house 100yrs ago with a marketing plan. It worked so well that most of CMA has had 'neijia envy' for the last century, trying to prove they're 'more internal' than the next guy. As Vince Black (one of the better 'neijia' guys in the western hemisphere) said of Tom Bisio (arriving as an excellent Phillipino martial artist) when he showed up at his TCM school to the rest of the class- 'this guy's already got it, I don't need to show him anything'- or words to that effect (though Bisio seems to have thought Vince had quite a bit to teach him).

QJC,

I'm up in LA- we should hook up and compare notes, and grab a beer sometime. There's a XinYi guy I've been putting off meeting for the last couple of months who might be fun to hook up with too. BTW- appearantly Hawkins Cheung has some pretty slick Chen taiji. . . it's a weird planet.

Andrew

[stricker]

Andrew,

Yeah i guess so, ive had a little (but indelible in my memory) contact with a simply amazing hsing yi and bagua teacher. Unfortunately regular contact isnt available, but the expericence confirmed to me that i was on the right track with everything id been taught in wing chun, only that i had to step up practice about a thousand times hahaha.

funnily enough thats been my experience in mma too, definitely wing chun is the right track theres just so much to learn so many directions to go its about getting the balance and focus right in training to be well rounded. no point having awesome 1inch punch if you got no fighting skills or footwork, no point having super slick chi sao if you get clobbered when you glove up or your punch ain't up to it!

anyway, with mma tomorrow, wing chun thurs, fri rest, sat mma, sunday is kettlebell day!