Systems making Choy Lay Fut

[Infrazael]

I was just wondering, since I've read in many places and they seem to differ in opinion on the arts that Choy Lay Fut was created off of.

I've heard Fut Ga, Hung Ga, Choy Ga, Lee Ga, and then some other styles, and also Northern styles.

Can anyone clarify?

[Fu-Pow]

Choy Fook="Choy family" style but not the same as famous 5 families styles (as in Hung, Lay, Lau, Choy and Mak).

(Apparently, Choy Fook studied kung fu at the Northern Shaolin temple and you see the influence in Choy Lay Fut with the long arm technqiues. I see a lot of similarities in Choy Lay Fut with Tong Bei Quan and Pi Qua Quan. )

Lay Yau San=Same style as Lay Ga of famous 5 families.

These are pretty much agreed upon.

Some people would say that Choy Lay Fut was also contributed to by:

Ching Cho Wo Sheun="Green Grass Monk" who taught Jeong Yim and/or Chan Heung depending on who you talk to. Chan Family claims that Choy Fook and Ching Cho Wo Sheun are the same person.

Chan Yuen Woo=Chan Heung's uncle. Apparently he studied Fut Ga which is most likely a generic term for Buddha or "Shaolin" Boxing and not the "Fut Ga" style which is practiced in the U.S. Many styles could qualify as Fut Ga, any with a link to the Southern Shaolin temple including Hung Ga.

Anyways, the history becomes pretty murky once you go back more than a few generations and what people spout off as fact has more to do with politics than with reality.

You'll see a lot of similarities between all Southern "horse riding" styles...ie Hung Ga, Choy Lay Fut, Jow Ga, Hung Fut, etc. I think there was a lot of "cross pollination" amongst these styles so it is not always clear where something came from. Also, it is likely that some Northern styles, Lama Kung Fu and other influences crept in there.

People talk about "mixed martial arts" but Choy Lay Fut is the original in this sense. Picking up what works and discarding what doesn't, yet somehow integrating it into a coherent system.

I'm happy to answer any other questions on-line, here or via email, as I'd rather spend class time training CLF rather than talking about it.

See you in class....BTW, your gloves are on the way :D

[Ben Gash]

Fu-Pow, I think 7 star mantis might have a prior claim there ;)
I've read some sources that suggest that prior to the publication of Lam Sai Wing's work, Fut Gar, Nan Sil Lum and Hung Kuen were all pretty interchangeable terms.
I think when you look at some of the fundamentals of CLF, there's very obviously a Hung Kuen base, however stances such as Quai Ma and Tau Ma are far more common in northern styles than southern, and their usage in CLF is very northern. Also, the patterns and structure of CLF techniques bear many northern hallmarks. This is also true as the forms progress. If you look at the Bot Gwa forms, they contain some techniques with a very northern flavour.
Unfortunately most of us don't really know what Li Gar looks like, so it's very hard for us to comment on it's influence (Shaolin Master knows it, but he's not around much) which is frustrating as it's the only one everyone agrees on :mad:

[hskwarrior]

Ya know i was reading a website(choy lee fut) either from hong kong or china that claims Choy Lee Fut substituted for the five families.

okay, thanks bye bye :D

[hskwarrior]

Don't get that started again.........

Choy Fook and Ching Cho are nowhere near one and the same. There is a major mistake in their perception of who he really is. In actuality, Ching Cho a.k.a. Cai DeZhong or Choy DakJung is much bigger than just being Jeong Yim's teacher, and contributor to the Choy Lee Fut Style.


But that's for later. ;)


hsk

[Fu-Pow]

Don't get that started again.........

Choy Fook and Ching Cho are nowhere near one and the same. There is a major mistake in their perception of who he really is. In actuality, Ching Cho a.k.a. Cai DeZhong or Choy DakJung is much bigger than just being Jeong Yim's teacher, and contributor to the Choy Lee Fut Style.


But that's for later. ;)


hsk

Well I already qualified my comment about Ching Cho Wo Sheun so I won't do it again here.

[Eddie]

In actuality, Ching Cho a.k.a. Cai DeZhong or Choy DakJung is much bigger than just being Jeong Yim's teacher, and contributor to the Choy Lee Fut Style.


aaahh comon, you cant leave us in suspense liek this! Tell us more :cool:

[Ben Gash]

OK, I REALLY don't want to be negative here, but the Ming Dynasty ended in 1644 and Jeong Yim lived in the mid 1800s.

[Infrazael]

So was the "Hung-Sing" Hung Mun the same as Hung Gar's "Hung" society?

Also I thought that CLF was based off of Hung Gar as well.

[Ben Gash]

The late 1830's would usually be considered the mid 1800s, being in the middle third :rolleyes: I never said arrived anyway, I said around :confused:

[hskwarrior]

infrazael,

yes the Hung Ga "hung" and the Hung from Hung Mun are the same characters.

off hand, i'm not sure, but the "3" ticks on the left hand side also represents "Heaven, Earth, and Man" -the TiandiHui.

The current "hung" used in our branch today still has the "3" ticks on the left hand side as well which is a secret reference to the Tiandihui.

In an actual Hung Mun Society, the "3" ticks on the left is on the top of the character but somehow is still the same word.

frank

[Infrazael]

So was Hung Gar also in the mix when CLF was created?

[hskwarrior]

You must understand that if jeong yim was heavily involved in the revolution, then quiet was kept for so long. being caught meant instant death.

Put it this way, if you were part of the Secret Societies and one of their rules were to keep quiet and you disobeyed their rules what do you think would happen?

What do you think would have happened to Jeong Yim if he were caught by the Ching Government? or to any freedom fighter of that period during that time?

Ya know what bothers me, is that people believe the chan family about "our" founder, when "our founder" was alive until 1893, was alive and well and able to pass down his own history to his students.



keep it lightweight now,


hsk

[Infrazael]

So was Hung Gar also in the mix when CLF was created?

Is everyone going to ignore my question? :confused:

[hskwarrior]

Infrazael,

chan Heung first started learning his gung fu from Chan Yuen Wu, supposedly a master of Hung Ga, so Chan Heung did get his start in Hung Ga, yes.

Does hung ga have anything to do with Choy Lee Fut, i can't say. they do look so much alike but with different emphasis on strength and horse stance and such.

still, the only hung ga that has to do with CLF is through Chan Yuen Wu and Chan Heung, not Choy Fook, Lee Yau San, or Monk Ching CHo. the Green Grass Monk was a master of the Fut Ga style.

why do you ask?


frank

[Infrazael]

Infrazael,

chan Heung first started learning his gung fu from Chan Yuen Wu, supposedly a master of Hung Ga, so Chan Heung did get his start in Hung Ga, yes.

Does hung ga have anything to do with Choy Lee Fut, i can't say. they do look so much alike but with different emphasis on strength and horse stance and such.

still, the only hung ga that has to do with CLF is through Chan Yuen Wu and Chan Heung, not Choy Fook, Lee Yau San, or Monk Ching CHo. the Green Grass Monk was a master of the Fut Ga style.

why do you ask?


frank

Because Hung Gar and Choy Lay Fut look so ****ed similar to the naked eye.

There has to be some connection there. :p

[Fu-Pow]

Is everyone going to ignore my question? :confused:

Yes and no. What we know today as "Hung Ga" as in "Tiger and Crane Boxing" did not even exist in its present form when Choy Lay Fut was created. (Apparently, the "Crane" in Tiger and Crane wasn't added until later, supposedly by the wife of Wong Fei Hung.)

What did exist was something like "Hung Ga" that supposedly came from the Southern Shaolin Temple. Like all Shaolin derived styles it probably would have been called Fut Ga or "Buddha Family" boxing. So to say that Chan Yuen Woo practiced Hung Ga might be a bit misleading.

As stated before all the "horse riding" southern styles share similar roots so you will see alot of crossover between styles this includes Hung Ga, Choy Lay Fut, Jow Ga (Hung Tao Choy Mei), Hung Fut and probably others......


BTW, I did see somebody perform a Lay/Li Ga form at Norman Chin's anniversary party in NYC a few years back. I'm not sure if it was THE Lay Ga or was just called that because it came from someone with the surname Lay/Li. If I recall the stances were not very low and the form looked very loose and relaxed.

[CLFNole]

Personally I think this is all an exercise in futility. Kind of like a dog chasing it's own tail.

Don't get me wrong I think its great to trace one's history; however that being said finding out the history is difficult to say the least and sources of information questionable at best. There is very little documented material on the founding of many of the southern styles; however some how or another they typically have roots in Siu Lam Gee and hence the similarities between southern systems.

Think about it, since much of CLFs history was not kept or secret than how can you get reliable information about it. Some people believe the Chan history but I think thats a rather one-sided version from the grandson's perspective.

My point is CLF is a great art and our history is clouded. The past is of little importance now, what is important is the future and how CLF is spread and taught. We should focus more on our own kung fu and how to improve it rather that get too caught up in history.

Peace.

[Fu-Pow]

My point is CLF is a great art and our history is clouded. The past is of little importance now, what is important is the future and how CLF is spread and taught. We should focus more on our own kung fu and how to improve it rather that get too caught up in history.

Peace.

Nole I agree. All I think we can really say is that there are certain"Super Families" (not to be confused with the "Super Friends" of Sat morning cartoon lore) that share similar characteristics. Everyone in the fam ****ly should all learn and share with each other rather than get caught up in the politics.

In Southern China we have the "horse riding" styles which I've already mentioned. There is a lot of similarity.

Then you have the southern Hakka derived styles, Fukien White Crane, Southern Praying Mantis, Lung Ying, Bak Mei, Wing Chun, etc.

In Northern China you see the Long Fist styles, Tai Tzu, Hong Quan, Cha Quan, Chang Quan, Pao Chui, Eagle Claw, etc, etc.

Then you have the internal arts like Ba Gua, Xing Yi, Taiji Quan, Liu He Ba Fa, etc.

Of course, there are always going to be those hybrid arts that don't fit into any super family.

My point is that all of these "Super Families" share similarities on all significant levels including intent, form, body mechanics and strategy. Instead of battling it out over who has the real deal or what the true history the respective styles we should promote and share with our Super Family.......

we could probably all learn alot.

Peace. :)

[CLFNole]

Sorry to rant but the history stuff sometimes gets to me. This whole thread started about what styles make of CLF. We all have ideas but no one has any concrete evidence.

Everyone is always talking about where did CLF come from : some say choy gar, lee gar, etc...., to others Choy is Choy Fook and lets not even start with the Fut thing. My point was we can all talk about this until we are blue in the face but the bottom line is none of us really know. No one was alive that far back to know.

Just look at other styles like hung gar and wing chun and how they bicker about history. I just think we should talk about CLF whether its fighting concepts, techniques, forms or weapons.

Don't get me wrong I commend your efforts its just that I think you will always here conflicting stories.

As far as hung gar and CLF....easy many of the early CLF sifus had hung backgrounds and some hung sifus CLF backgrounds and therefore the similarities. ;)

[hskwarrior]

go up a couple and check my posting fellas you beat me to it.


hsk

[hskwarrior]

You are right nole, but not even the Chan Family can back up their story outside of their own account of the history.

See, my POV is "let us tell our story, don't tell me i'm wrong just to try and ensure your position. Our version of the history deserves to be heard, as well as the other branches. If we all could agree on the history then the history will no longer be an issue."

But there are things too inevitable to escape and history is one of them. I agree, history holds no weight when it comes to someone attacking you and you are going to hit him with a kwa sow chop. Still, if history is so unimportant, then why do we even call CLF....CLF? why not just Gung fu? By saying we practice 'CLF" we are saying this is how we do it.

Then why is it so wrong to say this is who we are?


hsk

[CLFNole]

Frank:

I never said history isn't important or that I don't care about our history. I just don't get that caught up in it. You and I are alike in a lot of ways, ask Joe I was always the one that looked into our school's history, the history behind certain sets and how sifu taught them in his early years, etc...

Over time and due to various things in my personal I realized it all doesn't matter that much. I can have my take on history, you another take, Fu-Pow another and so on. You know what though none of us would be able to prove our version is the right one. When students ask me about the history of CLF I always begin with..."well there are a few different versions." I tell them the various stories and leave it with do your own research and believe what you want. That is the beauty of a free society, you can say and believe whatever you want.

Regarding Cai Dezhong, I remember reading somewhere that they thought he might have a connection to Wing Chun. If thats the case and he is also the GGM they why don't we have more short-hand techniques. See with all of the various holes in Chinese kung fu history we will never know the real truth. I have heard different stories as to who the 5 master that escaped the burning of the temple. Others say that these people are part of folklore much like Robin Hood. Some people believe Fong Sai Yuk and Wing Chun were real peolple others think they were made up. Who can say for sure?


I think history is great but the best we can typically do is to get the hstory of the generation before us like the history of our own schools and sifus.