Conditioning theory?

[Ray Pina]

If I told you I could blow a small piece of paper from my extended palm would you believe me?

You don't have to take my word for it, I can show you.

I can train it and maybe blow heavier construction paper and work my way up to an empty pint of milk ... like you used to drink in grade school. With a lot of training, maybe blow a full one off.

This all sounds pretty reasonable but would you believe me if I told you I can face you in a fight and blow on you and you'll disapear too? Of course not. The method I'm training has a ceiling, can only go so far.

Likewise, lifting static dead weight will give me a power increase, no doubt about it. But there is also a ceiling. The 180lbs guy can maybe pump up to 200lbs, 225lbs, but what type of power does he have in the face of the 350lbs guy? Does he tell him, "No, I only fight at 200lbs."

Also, dead static weight only teaches one to resists. What happens when I slip a 45lbs weight off of only one side of your bench bar? Hell of a time, right?

What happens when the other guy suddenly releases his pressure? Did you hear it and feel it happening? Did you maintain your balance?

A two man set also develops power, whole body power, but also trains this type of listening.

Just food for though inspired by some recent training and experience.

[Merryprankster]

Likewise, lifting static dead weight will give me a power increase, no doubt about it. But there is also a ceiling. The 180lbs guy can maybe pump up to 200lbs, 225lbs, but what type of power does he have in the face of the 350lbs guy? Does he tell him, "No, I only fight at 200lbs."

Nope, but he sure stands a better chance at very strong 225 than he did at a reasonably in shape 180.


Also, dead static weight only teaches one to resists. What happens when I slip a 45lbs weight off of only one side of your bench bar? Hell of a time, right?

And that's why you incorporate things like gymnastics and or "odd object" training or body lifts and carries. To teach you better kinesthetic awareness.


What happens when the other guy suddenly releases his pressure? Did you hear it and feel it happening? Did you maintain your balance?

Yup. That's what nearly a decade of grappling experience will do for you.

[fa_jing]

Ray, thanks to you I have stopped prescribing marijuana to my patients.

[Ray Pina]

So are you saying that even though it is impossible for me to blow over the cinderblock with my breath I should continue training it because it will NOT blow over in a better way than if I didn’t train it?

Dude, I know you are smarter than this.

If I’m not mistaken I believe you aren’t that big. Can you lift yourself to match my power? Seven Star’s? Fighters who weight 300lbs +? What about the guys like you who think the same way? They’re not sitting at home eating Ring Dings while you condition.

Yet, you are skilled and successful and can beat anyone on any given day. It’s not your physical power, it’s your TECHNICAL POWER, use of leverage that wins the day.

Physical power is a great advantage when you have it. When you’re a stone you don’t mind smashing the egg. But stone to stone or egg to egg is foolish. To imply the egg do something to make it’s shell even 100% tougher, completely double its natural ability, and then go smack the brick is nothing short of retarted.

Please know I am not talking about competition. When you are matched with someone similar in size and weight – and you plan on fighting under rule sets designed to prolong the match – any slight advantage is a slight advantage.

But to take that model and apply it to Martial Arts is dangerous. If the fly weight is to defeat the super heavy weight …. will victory be found in the weight room or in the tactics, strategy and technique of the fighter?

[Merryprankster]

I don't know if your post is directed at me or not, but if it is, your reading comprehension is lacking today.

Lifting weights and conditioning should be integral to any martial artist seeking to optimize their fighting ability. It is not "the priority," but every bit of advantage helps. A 180 lbs fighter, fighting a 300 lbs person is at more disadvantage than a 225 lbs fighter, all other things being equal.

There is a "law of diminishing returns," with respect to everything. If you practice a move 10,000 times, your ability to improve that movement on the 10,001 rep is extremely small. To get absolutely perfect, I'd have to drop everything else in my life. In order for me to get as strong as possible, I'd have to dedicate my whole life to only that, etc.

Assuming your fighting base is good to very good or better, you may reap more benefit from increasing your stamina and strength. While certainly, most street fights are short - 1. 45 seconds to a 1:30 is PLENTY of time for stamina to become an issue. 2. Strength matters - especially the less you have time to "work" your opponent over. None of this has to be at the expense of technique work, at least not for a normal person, who works, has a life, etc.

It's ALL important.

Body, mind and spirit work together to produce victory. Optimizing all of them as well as you can afford to, while not sacrificing progress in any of them, is best. That's a balancing act, sure, but totally doable.

[Ray Pina]

Good points and well said. I can't argue with what you said.

Just keep in mind that stylisticly we are at opposite ends of the spectrum. You study a young man's style that is somewhat arrogant .... I study an old man's style that views every foe as being younger, stronger, faster, etc.

Lifting, and conditioning in general, only reinforces natural ability aspects that I have very little control over.

Iraqi insurgents can not match the US's firepower or troop size .... but they can still fight us. This is the type of mindset I enjoy when it comes to combat.

Lifting is like requesting more and more troops. But how many troops do you have? And when you become in the habit of relying on sheer number of forces, what happens when you are outnumbered, or simply out manuevered?

[Merryprankster]

You study a young man's style that is somewhat arrogant .... I study an old man's style that views every foe as being younger, stronger, faster, etc.

Your words, not mine, and twice as arrogant as anything I have ever said and thought.

I detest the affected snobbery of CMA as much as I think the tattooed tough guy white belt is a tool.


I can't argue with what you said.

Never stopped you before.


Lifting is like requesting more and more troops. But how many troops do you have? And when you become in the habit of relying on sheer number of forces, what happens when you are outnumbered, or simply out manuevered?

Then you understand neither the role of conditioning, nor technique. You want to separate them out and make it into an either or proposition when they are complementary. A tired fighter is not strong, not fast and not technical, and more likely to get injured. Being technical conserves energy, but does not eliminate its use. The reality is that and getting tired happens, even if you are good, and sometimes, forcing it is expedient - and may be the difference between life and death on the oft bandied about "street." Conditioning reinforces your technique, while good technique reduces the energy loss over time.

Train it all. Again, it's a balancing act, but being good is a personal choice.

[PangQuan]

"Power of mind is infinite while brawn is limited."
-Koichi Tohei

[Mr Punch]

"Power of mind is infinite while brawn is limited."
-Koichi ToheiTohei was wrong, or mistranslated.

The 'extent' of the mind is infinite. As in, there are no boundaries to your imagination. There are very finite boundaries to your mind's power if you are taking power to mean a force that influences other things. Cross those boundaries and you're in the realms of fantasy.


You study a young man's style that is somewhat arrogant .... I study an old man's style that views every foe as being younger, stronger, faster, etc.
How is it a young man's style? Many BJJers and JJJers for that matter roll into their seventies.

It may be the difference between the thinking of old Japanese men who have fought a lot of people in single combat, and old Chinese. The Japanese don't think of their foe or make any assumption until there has been some kind of engagement, some intelligence, some clash... this is zen. The Chinese assume the worst.

Don't forget also, while it's important to respect our elders, many of them have just had a longer time on the planet talking bollocks! :eek:

[PangQuan]

"It's not just self defense, it's about...self control, body discipline, and mind discipline...and breath techniques. It involves yoga. It involves meditation. It's an art, not a sport." - Elvis Presley.

[PangQuan]

"Given enough time, any man may master the physical. With enough knowledge, any man may become wise. It is the true warrior who can master both....and surpass the result." --Tien T'ai



"im just having fun here." -- PangQuan

[PangQuan]

im not sure where that translation came from, I have a large compilation of MA quotes in a word file...

I personally took the meaning of power as in a force to drive us to constantly breach our boundaries and limitations. The will of man, if you will.


p.s. thanks tho mat, I will most likely update that quote to reflect your translation.

[Merryprankster]

And Tien T'ai's quotation is closest to what I am getting at. Body, mind and spirit are the holy trinity of fighting. There is nothing mystical or magical about it, and you can train all three without sacrificing your overall fighting skill precisely because the sum of those three is greater than the value of the individual parts. They function in complementary synergy, not as isolated pieces.

Proposed dichotomies are nothing but myths.

[rogue]

Body, mind and spirit are the holy trinity of fighting. Holy cats, MP cuts to the chase and is right again! MP sums up the meaning of Sanchin and he's not even a karate dude. :cool: I don't know how a BJJ fighter learned our secret training method, but now I know why they fight so well. ;)

That synergy is key IMO. You'll rarely if ever have all three in perfect balance but you stand a better chance having one or two of the three fill in the gap of the weak leg.

[Merryprankster]

Thanks rogue, but I hesitate to use shorthand like that because it sounds like mystical bull****.

As long as people understand that those three things are personal choices, and that you can work on them in very real, non-esoteric ways, it's a useful sort of shorthand.

Once people start thinking that there's some kind of something "extra" to it, the value diminishes greatly.

The body is trained through conditioning (stamina, strength, agility, etc)and technique repetition (muscle memory).

The mind is trained through positive visualization, positive self-talk, and technique repetition.

Spirit is something that can definitely be taught, but requires the recognition that you must train for victory like your life depends on it, and fight like you don't care what the outcome is. Simple, but genuinely not easy.

[rogue]

Are you implying that this kind of training can happen without having to sit in seiza for hours and hours? :eek:

I hear you about the mystical. A friend of mine was teaching a very simple entry technique in a self defense seminar and some of the black belts kept looking for that "extra" something for what made it work for him. It was almost funny.

I think sports in general are a great place to see the body, mind and spirit triangle. Just recently on the UFC 2 one of the fighters decided he didn't want to do it anymore. I have no doubt that he was physically in shape and knew his stuff but his spirit was gone. I do think he could have gone on for a couple of weeks to see what happened but he decided that he was done and that was that.

[Ray Pina]

The reason I consider it a somewhat of an arrogant style is because many of its practioners that I know readily leave their head unguarded to capture a leg. When pointing this out to them, they say they can either afford a hit -- or two :eek:-- on the way in or that they are so skillful they won't get hit at all.

Oh yea?

[Merryprankster]

Well Ray, in fairness, it's hard to hit somebody hard and well who is shooting in on you (for real), as has been demonstrated in NUMEROUS ring fights. I might also point out that most straight BJJers can't grapple on their feet worth a ****.

That said, I much prefer setting up the shot. I usually slip and shoot, or jab cross, rear leg kick, plant and shoot.

Much safer than crashing in and hoping to grab something.

[Face2Fist]

ray, i have been reading your post for a while, and you speak of fighting and how youi train for real confrontations. have you ever gotten in a real street fight and used your skills? and the guys you have fought are they real practioners or just people who train in that specific style, but dont really train fighting?

[Ray Pina]

it's hard to hit somebody hard and well who is shooting in on you (for real), as has been demonstrated in NUMEROUS ring fights.

I know. But it only takes one, well positioned forearm to ruin a day .... after that, all those other succesful shoots don't really mean all that much to the guy who does get caught.

I don't like to gamble when I fight. I like a sure thing.

[Merryprankster]

I like a sure thing.

Then you've got the wrong hobby, friend. :D

[David Jamieson]

In fighting, there is no such thing as a sure thing.

In giving a drunk a beating, sure, but in an actual fight between peers, no.

[Ray Pina]

Well, you have a theory and I have a theory.... want to put it to test?

My theory is that one going to battle should train good structure, should refine their technique so that it accomplishes a lot while doing a little but also puts oneself in a position for victory. It's not about "fighting" and not about being able to "take a shot." Sounds simple, but it requires a lot of training.

If I hear you correcetly, you're saying one needs to develop good technique, but also lift, also run. Also do something with odd-shaped objects. That sounds like a large plate .... and not all of it actually fight related.

In this instance, I think it will be a matter of you're particular technique being better than mine. Maybe you can get me down and your ground experience will be too much for me.

Or, you will do something that you have gotten away with 1,000 times before but it will be dealt with completely differently. At this time, your lifting and wind will not be a factor. In fact, I'll put money down that when our match is over neither of us will be winded no matter how its ends.

[Face2Fist]

Well, you have a theory and I have a theory.... want to put it to test?

My theory is that one going to battle should train good structure, should refine their technique so that it accomplishes a lot while doing a little but also puts oneself in a position for victory. It's not about "fighting" and not about being able to "take a shot." Sounds simple, but it requires a lot of training.

If I hear you correcetly, you're saying one needs to develop good technique, but also lift, also run. Also do something with odd-shaped objects. That sounds like a large plate .... and not all of it actually fight related.

In this instance, I think it will be a matter of you're particular technique being better than mine. Maybe you can get me down and your ground experience will be too much for me.

Or, you will do something that you have gotten away with 1,000 times before but it will be dealt with completely differently. At this time, your lifting and wind will not be a factor. In fact, I'll put money down that when our match is over neither of us will be winded no matter how its ends.


dude! youre very defensive, quick in calling people out. you need a hug or quit watching shaw brothers flicks... hehehehe

[Ray Pina]

In fighting, there is no such thing as a sure thing.

In giving a drunk a beating, sure, but in an actual fight between peers, no.


You never know for sure if you're going to win against the skilled guy. But that doesn't mean you should develop a technique and attitude that is risky at best.

Leaving one's head unguarded in order to capture the big, powerful leg with the small arm is retarted! It's a bad trade.

Let's say it's never been done before .... can you see it? Can you see how dangerous that is? Just because BJJ guys fighting BJJ guys haven't incorporated this practice into the many UFC we've all seen, doesn't mean it can't be done and doesn't mean it isn't being done and captured on film right now.

[David Jamieson]

Just train what you train. There is no regimen that will meet all situations.

Lot's of people train towards the venue they will use their training in.

Being shrimped and in a boxers stance all the time is not the most favourable position in all situations either.

Doing a shoot ain't gonna work all the time. Jab's, hooks, crosses and uppercuts can all be dissolved or neutrlized.

In fact, all attacks and all defenses can be met and turned.

this doesn't mean stop training them. It does mean, don't for one minute think that what you are doing will make you any better than anyone else in a confrontation. On the street, sometimes you win the battle and lose the war. IN the ring, you may be a do that has it's day, but you can't stay there forever, you will eventually be taken out by someone who will meet and beat everything you've trained.

that's how it goes. So, there is no such thing as a sure thing.

[Ray Pina]

dude! youre very defensive, quick in calling people out. you need a hug or quit watching shaw brothers flicks... hehehehe

Not really on either case.

Someone suggested I have the wrong hobby. Also that my training method is unrealistic.

I'm willing to put the keyboard down and prove that I can at least handle myself at 31 against the young, athletic, lifting, running, figther.

What's the alternative? Go back and forth typing for weeks, referring to UFC 1 through whatever. We are lucky that we do what we do. This type of thing can be solved easily.

In the end, I like Merry. I think he's smart. Ans we've been planning on meeting for a while anyway.

[David Jamieson]

I'm willing to put the keyboard down and prove that I can at least handle myself at 31 against the young, athletic, lifting, running, figther.

and say you get the crap beaten out of you and then your ass placed on your head to be worn as a hat?

what would that prove to you ray?

[Merryprankster]

Geez, why do you always have to do this? I'm moving to San Francisco in three days, I don't care about fighting you, and my goal is winning the Pan American BJJ championship. You don't fit in to that anywhere right now. I genuinely didn't have time for you while I was trying to accomplish my goals, and with Graduate school.

I can do all the things I mention in my training. But, perhaps I am just more dedicated than you are. I make the time.

[TenTigers]

ok, a couple of things:
first, lifting,not body building develops core strength-usable strength. In this case, we are talking about presses, deadlifts, powercleans, squats. Power is theis strength, applied. The 180 lb guy can still drop the 225lnb guy if power is applied correctly. "To move a thousand pounds with four ounces" comes to mind. I have seen smaller guys suplex guys twice their size-just knowing proper body mechanics, leverage, and having core strength. I also did construction with a guy who did not seem to have very much muscle desity at all, yet he could lift and carry twice what I could. Ray, since you were in Sifu Managniello's school for awhile, perhaps you remember Ed Hensel-tall, skinny guy. Did the spear, good with a kali stick and a blade, and hit like a ton of bricks. Some people just have that weird tendon strength-no muscle mass, but strength from God knows where.
There are also guys like Chen Man-Ching, Wing Lum-Fay and ohers. who although appearing quite frail, could drop a man with a single strike.
(well, I got that going for me-I'm kinda ...frail!)
Two-Zen is Japanese for Chan, which is Manderin for Seem-in Cantonese, and Dharma in sanskrit-it came from India (Boddhidharma) to China, and THEN to Japan. The philosphies of fighting,Mo-Wei-spontaneous reaction, no-mind, etc are not Japanese, they are basic premises.

Also, all the running, stamina, conditioning,lifting etc. All the hous spent doing one single skill, are so that when the situation calls for it, in a nanosecond, it is applied.
Ray, you practice chi-sao., so you know that all the practice, years of skill development is for that one split second that you strike and feel resistance-you can "go with the flow" and either run, or trap, and continue striking. In WC, chi-sao is alot of your training, yet it is only a brief second in fighting. That one second, can very well determine the outcome. Nobody goes in to trap, you go in to strike. If you don't meet resistance, you continue striking. If you meet resistance, you react accordingly, and continue striking.
I think sometimes, we get hung up on semantics, and end up argueing until we are comparing apples and oranges.

[Merryprankster]

As far as having the wrong hobby, it was a joke built around the fact that you said you like a sure thing - nothing ever is in fighting. Sorry.

While we're on it, I do think you have an ego problem. I think you're terribly concerned with preserving it. I mean, to get that defensive to that joke? Really.

[Merryprankster]

Did the spear, good with a kali stick and a blade, and hit like a ton of bricks. Some people just have that weird tendon strength-no muscle mass, but strength from God knows where.

Leverage.

Tony Atlas remarks on this in boxing all the time. Those wierd, skinny tall guys (tall for their weight), generate a lot of leverage in their straight punches because of their body structure.

[Ray Pina]

As far as having the wrong hobby, it was a joke built around the fact that you said you like a sure thing - nothing ever is in fighting. Sorry.

While we're on it, I do think you have an ego problem. I think you're terribly concerned with preserving it. I mean, to get that defensive to that joke? Really.


Sorry, I just don't view it as being defensive. We both obviously take our training seriously. Time and time again I have my training method poked fun at, I say I am willing to demonstrate it's effectiveness, and then I am labeled a hot head.

We are not old men contemplating the Tao too much just yet. We are young combatants. A theoretical disagreement is supposed to lead to combat. it's no big deal and not personal. It's stylelitical.

[Merryprankster]

Sorry, I just don't view it as being defensive. We both obviously take our training seriously. Time and time again I have my training method poked fun at, I say I am willing to demonstrate it's effectiveness, and then I am labeled a hot head.

I'm not poking fun at it, I'm just telling you you're wrong. There's a difference.

As far as not being defensive - if you don't see it that way, I think you may need to re-evaluate the way you interact with the world. That particular comment wasn't directed at your training but at the fundamentally unpredictable nature of personal combat. If you are looking for a "sure thing," this is the wrong hobby. You can only maximize positive outcomes and minimize negative ones to the best of your ability.

If you are willing to demonstrate its effectiveness, there are plenty of venues to do it in, rather than "challenge," Emin Boztepe or me or anybody else.

[Merryprankster]

I hear your bark but only see your a$$ with it's tail between it.

Whatever Ray. I'm not going to turn this into any more of a ****ing contest. If the fact that I have other things going on, more important than you, irritates you, I don't know what to say. I've been having to travel and do **** for about the past 6-8 months because of job and wife requirements. Before that I had the Pan Ams, before that I was dealing with coming off an injury, before that I was in an arm brace. I didn't have time to do anything with you - my friends, my wife, my obligations come and came first. And now I'm moving. So sorry, but getting together with you has not been precisely a priority.

Generally, I don't mind your posts, and I try to be agreeable with you, but it gets pretty silly that you tell an awful lot of people, including Coach Ross and others with reputable records, who train champions, that they are somehow doing it wrong. If you want to put your money where your mouth is, GO DO IT, instead of running around asking people to meet you for it, or "challenging." If you've got something special, go prove it where it will get attention, rather than this. You keep saying "I'm gonna," but you never seem to DO.

Now, the only thing you seem to want to do is impugn the context to which I choose to devote my efforts. The majority of my training is focused on sport grappling - a sport combative. But that doesn't change the requirements of body mind and spirit. It doesn't change the need to train them all. If I'm a marathon runner, I have to train them all. If I'm a high jumper, I have to train them all. If I'm a football player, I have to train them all.

You want to punch and kick and throw - well, go do it. But the requirements to be top notch don't magically change because you are punching, kicking and throwing instead of moving a ball downfield. Every other athletic endeavor on the planet requires this type of training to be the best, yet you say "this isn't the path." Hmmm. Pardon me for being skeptical, then ultimately a touch insistent about it.

Here's the thing - you, not me, are making the claim of something special and unique. It is not up to me to disprove it - it is up to you to prove it - so go find somebody who has the time and inclination, or sign up for an MMA fight or something and show the world. I am not the one here with something to demonstrate, nor do I ask to be believed, nor have I claimed to be anything but a sportive artist - ever. I've never fooled myself about what I do.

As for me, I have proven myself within the context of my chosen activity (ies), yet elusive goals remain. - now, go do the same for yourself, and shut up "the haters."


not suited to a highly-motivated man swinging bear fisted strikes at you.

I've had plenty of this in my training, thank you very much, although I choose not to devote the majority of my efforts to it. By way of response I've seen your comp video:

1. You aren't bear fisted by any means.
2. You quit and then made excuses about your conditioning, the rules, the gloves, the padding.

That's it on this subject.

[Ray Pina]

Like you, I'm getting tired of this and was about to come here to delete my last two post because I though they were harmful and unproductive.

I'll say a few things for myself and they are facts as I know them:

1) I was gloved in that San Da match and I did tap due to lack of conditioning. I was 1.5 years into my training and had to start somewhere. I learned a lot and that's part of the reason I don't want to fool around anymore. I don't view martial arts as sport. I'll fight with 4oz gloves, but prefer you to be clothed, with sneakers and no gloves.

2) You need to condition your body, mind and spirit for any athletic endeavor, but that does not require weight lifting.

3) I don't think that Coach Ross or you are wrong. I just think there are other ways to train and that you are quick to dismiss them, even bash them somewhat. The best proof that I can offer you or someone like Coach Ross is to fight them.

I can show you video of me grabbing a number of BJJ guys who have shot on me, but you know and I know the first thing out of your mouth will be, "Who's that bum?" Doesn' t it make more sense for you to put your own head in there? Since you're the one that thinks my training is "wrong."

4) I will enter a MMA veneue when I feel I can satisfy the position of representing E-Chuan's hand-to-hand fighting. Until then, I'm doing what I'm doing to gain experience. But don't be so quick to knock it. Are you prepared to show up and fight a stranger from the internet with nothing but 4oz gloves and a tap? How far will you go before you tap? Only you know the answer to that.

5) Best of luck in your life and training. Honestly.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I'm not poking fun at it, I'm just telling you you're wrong

I love you man.

[Merryprankster]

I love you man.

I love you too. Let's hear it for bear-fisted man love!

Bring your hairy back!

[Vajramusti]

"
Tony Atlas remarks on this in boxing all the time.".

MP

I am sure that you meant Teddy Atlas.

Joy Chaudhuri

[Merryprankster]

LOL yes, of course. I knew something didn't look quite right.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I love you too. Let's hear it for bear-fisted man love!

Bring your hairy back!


mmmmancoat....

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Bear-Fisted? How about Bare-Fisted?

I keep getting images of you guys all wearing giant hairy 'Bear' gloves with claws.....

[Merryprankster]

I keep getting images of you guys all wearing giant hairy 'Bear' gloves with claws.....

You don't?

[ShaolinTiger00]

Bear-Fisted? How about Bare-Fisted?

I keep getting images of you guys all wearing giant hairy 'Bear' gloves with claws.....

That's hot.

[Mutant]

Bear-Fisted? How about Bare-Fisted?

I keep getting images of you guys all wearing giant hairy 'Bear' gloves with claws.....
Grrrrrrrowl

[Merryprankster]

That's hot.

**** straight my Kung Fu Hero!

[ShaolinTiger00]

**** straight my Kung Fu Hero!

"kung fu hero" will be the inscription on my tombstone.

[lkfmdc]

"Kung Fu Hero"

you mean like
Roast pork (Cha Shiu) with lettuce, tomato and soy sauce on a toasted roll....

mmmmmmmmmmmm.......

;)

[ShaolinTiger00]

"Kung Fu Hero"

you mean like
Roast pork (Cha Shiu) with lettuce, tomato and soy sauce on a toasted roll....

mmmmmmmmmmmm.......

;)


roast pork.. (cuban pernil or lechon) oh man.... ((((cutting weight sucks..))))

[Knifefighter]

Ray:
I believe Renzo's school is not that far from you. I'm pretty sure they have several people there who would accept a challenge match with you. If you want to shut the "haters" up, why don't you try that route. Beating one of Renzo's guys would give you instant credibility. Till then, I think most of us will continue to believe you and your "master" are just smoke blowers from the Wizard of Oz.

[Merryprankster]

See knife, I don't think he's blowing smoke at all. I just think that he has an ego issue - not in the sense that he's got to run out and prove himself, but in the sense that he has to preserve that image. It sounds insulting, but like most sportive guys on here, you know what I'm talking about: The "I'm gonna," guys who don't, and the ones who can't seem to take the risks necessary to win. Running around challenging people and overreacting to a joke that wasn't even directed AT HIM (but built on the inherent unpredictability of fighting) are symptomatic of that.

What really irks me is the lack of contextual distinction. He has spoken before, for instance, about "Yeah, that old judo guy might be tough, but what happens when he takes off the gi and people start punching?" That's not the point of what I am driving at at all. If we go that route I could say "yeah, well, what happens when we put gis on the tough old judoka and your master, and elminate striking." Neither become less tough or skilled - the context merely changes. My point is that the mind, body, spirit connection is the crux of getting good at any physical activity. The best in the world all have it, and work constantly to improve every facet of it.

WHAT activity they choose is immaterial - he showed he missed my entire point when he was saying my training doesn't "prepare me for fighting," in essence. And in a sense, he is right. I am primarily a sportive grappler, who has enough MMA and striking on the side to get by. I've never made any pretenses otherwise.

But that's not the point. I want to be the very best sportive grappler I can be, I want to win the Pan-Am's and at least place at the worlds. And that requires the same connection and facet training. My accomplishments in that world say I'm on the right path, but I have some things yet, mostly mental, that I MUST work on to win. Three years losing by advantage or referee's decision to a podium stander at the Pan Ams is getting old. I've demonstrated my point in over a hundred grappling matches - context of that success as I've pointed out, is immaterial; this is about training principles.

Point being, of course, that if a crew rower, a sprinter, and a wrestler tell you that training those three things and the connection between them is paramount to success, regardless of context, and you say "it's not," then challenging them to fights doesn't demonstrate your point, no matter who wins.

What DOES demonstrate your point is rising to the top or at least the level of recognition in YOUR chosen field. So go do it. Show us there is another way.

It's not a question of CMA vs BJJ or MMA. It's a question of "if you aren't training these facets and these connections, then you're wrong." It's that simple. You cannot be the best, or even reach your full potential if you don't. The world's best sprinters, best fighters, best rock climbers didn't get there by accident, by talent, or by NOT training those things.

To think otherwise is either flat out wrong, misinformed, or delusional. It's about being the best you can be, the absolute best - and that is a result of conscious choices we make in our training.

[ShaolinTiger00]

that's all well and good, but my boner is wavering here. Can we get back to the hairy man love?

[Merryprankster]

http://www.ggb.org.br/imagens/TrevisanBEAR_artigo.jpg

All for you Kung Fu Hero.

[PangQuan]

I agree that a balance between the said elements is a great recipie for success, but at the same time its not completely necessary to reach the top.

two words.

Mike Tyson.

I doubt he was of the most spiritually and mentally developed person around, he of course had a level of developement within each field but I would not say he has ever been the most "balanced" athelete out there.

Granted he was severely leaning into the physical aspect of his field, he never the less did reach the top.

Yet, and I believe, due to the fact he was not fully developed in areas that would have helped him, he fell, and he fell hard.

This example can show us that there is no set mold for success, but at the same time it also shows us that if not properly developed, one can have a difficult time dealing with everything that will be thrown your way.

Tyson went to an extreme, he paid for it, time and again.

He was a world champion, and then he was a world joke...

not the best path to follow, but he did achieve immortality.

[Ray Pina]

Ray:
I believe Renzo's school is not that far from you. I'm pretty sure they have several people there who would accept a challenge match with you. If you want to shut the "haters" up, why don't you try that route. Beating one of Renzo's guys would give you instant credibility. Till then, I think most of us will continue to believe you and your "master" are just smoke blowers from the Wizard of Oz.

Maybe that's what I'm working up to. Maybe that's why I insist on no gear. Maybe that's why I'd like to fight Merry ... and you if you're ever around.

As for hiding behind smoke .... I'm right here. I try to recruit any willing fighters for monthly no gear, full contact fights on every major MA board I know of. My 65 year old master accepts everyone. I made it clear I'd drive to DC to meet with Merry. I invite YOU, not all these other fighters you want me to fight, to come and fight me. If I'm ever in your area (San Fran is it), I'd be willing to fight you.

Disagree with me, but if you're going to insult me do it with something that has substance. Because honestly, it's funny, the MMA crowd here is actually the ones doing a lot of talking but I never see anything. This is not an insult to a great study of combat, just the folks here who somehow confuse the guys who are doing it, with the guys who are doing it in school, on mats, with gear, and for points and no striking.

I'm here. Not in oz. I use my name, not a fake.

[Merryprankster]

Pang, I disagree. Cus D'amato had him mentally and spiritually prepared. Without him, he just couldn't do it. You can track his decline from Cus' death. Look at Douglas Tyson. Tyson wasn't prepared. He wasn't the wrecking machine in top form. He was sluggish, he was out of shape, he was frustrated and he started to think more about not losing than winning. He didn't even have appropriate cornermen and had to resort to a glove filled with cold water (!) to bring down swelling.

By contrast, Buster Douglas has said himself that he was more focused, more prepared, physically, mentally, spiritually, for that fight than any other he ever fought.

To get to the top you have to acheive the highest levels you can of each. To stay there you have to maintain it - that's a conscious decision. And even that is no guarentee. That's where ego comes in. An egoless fighter doesn't fight to not lose. He trains like it's the most important thing, then fights like it's not important. He takes the risks necessary to win, even if it could mean an outright defeat. That doesn't mean he doesn't care, it just means while he's in that ring, he's thinking about winning, and doing what he has to do to do that. That is why Tito will lose to Randy 99 times out of a hundred. Tito is more concerned with not losing against Randy than he is with winning, no matter what he says; you can see Randy get inside his head every time.

Now, sure, different people are going to do their activity differently as they have different strengths and weaknesses. Mike was a heavy hitter, Chris Ward is a boxer. Both were/are excellent. But that synergy must be present to be the best you can. When any part is lacking, the whole thing tends to break apart when facing top competition - then, you can just float on talent or whatever - Mike, for instance, will always stand a puncher's chance even against good competition, and could certainly outbox you or me.

If you are content with something less, that's fine too - so long as you understand that that something less is a result of your choices and nothing else (barring physical impairment, etc).

[PangQuan]

touché... :D

[Ray Pina]

[QUOTE=Merryprankster]
What really irks me is the lack of contextual distinction. He has spoken before, for instance, about "Yeah, that old judo guy might be tough, but what happens when he takes off the gi and people start punching?" That's not the point of what I am driving at at all. If we go that route I could say "yeah, well, what happens when we put gis on the tough old judoka and your master, and elminate striking." /QUOTE]

This says a lot. To me, it makes all the difference in the world. I'm not interested in sport, in rolling around. I am interested in hitting you, and so is the guy in the real world, away from the ring, the mat, the dojo.

I want reality.

As for "Could have." Dude, I've been in this game since I was 4 years old. I have -- actually had -- more trophys and medals than I knew what to do with, so I recently through them all out.

I'm past that stage. Actually, I'm the one that doesn't have to stand on a pedastal and hold my hand up and show my shiny medal. I'd rather queitly meet with like minded martial artists and fight, with our fists, feet, elbows, etc., until one man is beat, not by points. My last two fights were ended by broken rib and broken forehead.

[fa_jing]

broken forehead? Skin broken, or skull broken?

[Ray Pina]

Only skin I think .... above the eyebrow. But enough to draw the tap. A two or three sticher at the most. The face definitely swelled a bit though.

[Face2Fist]

[QUOTE=Merryprankster]
What really irks me is the lack of contextual distinction. He has spoken before, for instance, about "Yeah, that old judo guy might be tough, but what happens when he takes off the gi and people start punching?" That's not the point of what I am driving at at all. If we go that route I could say "yeah, well, what happens when we put gis on the tough old judoka and your master, and elminate striking." /QUOTE]

This says a lot. To me, it makes all the difference in the world. I'm not interested in sport, in rolling around. I am interested in hitting you, and so is the guy in the real world, away from the ring, the mat, the dojo.

I want reality.

As for "Could have." Dude, I've been in this game since I was 4 years old. I have -- actually had -- more trophys and medals than I knew what to do with, so I recently through them all out.

I'm past that stage. Actually, I'm the one that doesn't have to stand on a pedastal and hold my hand up and show my shiny medal. I'd rather queitly meet with like minded martial artists and fight, with our fists, feet, elbows, etc., until one man is beat, not by points. My last two fights were ended by broken rib and broken forehead.


i know you dont want metals or trophies, but by posting here and writting about your conquests, you are feeding the biggest metal of all your ego. i read your post a few times and you always tend to mention how you have beaten this style, that style and etc etc. and you say youre not doing it for glory but to test your skills, which is good, but you are feeding your ego and are quick to call out people when they challenge your beliefs, i think that is due to your ego, you dont want to be wrong even though some people have a good argument. if youre happy doing what youre doing is cool. but expect to get taunted it happens to everyone

please dont challenge me hehehehehe

[Merryprankster]

The insinuation from Ray, of course, is that I'm not past "that stage." :rolleyes:

Since we seem to be in the business of comparing ****, I don't have any of my medals or trophies either. Neener, neener, neener.

If you think people who are serious about sportive arts fight for the medal, you've again managed to miss the point. The medal is nothing but a symbol of how hard you've worked. That's it. It's a physical reminder of the culmination of hard training. They are also useful to prove to people that you did what you say you did. Yes, you can forge a medal, but that's a lot of effort - lots more than telling stories for example. Videos are useful for the same purpose.

They are useful in that sense, but the acquisition of the shiny little medal isn't the motivational factor, nor having your hand raised on the podium. All of those are merely symbols reflecting the work that led up to the accomplishments of one day. Medals, podiums, tournaments - you miss the point entirely if you think of them as places to collect plastic and base metal. They are public forums with a public record with lots of witnesses that make it hard to falsify results.

The Chinese have that too, as Sifu Ross has noted - a person who is an indoor student or a lineage holder has documentation to that effect. The person doesn't train because of those documents. They are formalized symbols, representing the culmination of dedicated work and effort, while hopefully reducing falsity. Yes, I'm saying the BJJ Mundial gold and those documents are equivalent. Both put the world on notice that you have "arrived" at the top levels of what you do. Both are testaments to training and working your ass off.

Plus, it's fun. In one day, I can compete with 8 or 9 different people some with different styles, certainly with different games than I am usually used to. Judoka, Sambists, Wrestlers, BJJers, aikido guys (we've had a couple wander through), all feel different on the mat. Through those competitions, I identify strengths and weaknesses to further my growth in my chosen activity. Sure, it's within my context, but what you do is within yours - or do you have people jump out at you with baseball bats?

On that note as far as reality goes - if you want reality, gathering with like minded martial artists doesn't qualify. Every time we train, compete, challenge somebody, whatever, you're engaging in combat with some sort of rule set - even if the only rule is squaring off, rather than getting jumped by some guy or 5 or 6 of his buddies. It's a simulation of reality.


This says a lot. To me, it makes all the difference in the world. I'm not interested in sport, in rolling around. I am interested in hitting you, and so is the guy in the real world, away from the ring, the mat, the dojo.

Which, AGAIN, does not in any way change the necessity of the principles I outlined in order to be the best you can. Just because the context changes does not make the judoka any less skilled or tough, and it doesn't negate his need to train that trinity. It makes his chosen activity different from yours. If you choose not to respect it, or think "less" of it than what you have decided to do, that is YOUR problem, not theirs or mine. Hell, I admire the world's best pointfighters. They worked their **** asses off to get there.

FWIW, I wouldn't classify Judo as "rolling around on the mat." Judo is more like an injury waiting to happen.

I don't have anything against you. I think you might have potential to be very good or great, especially with your dedication and drive. But I also think you've got an ego problem that will prevent you from achieving it. Sorry for being honest.

[stimulant]

me 2pence worth

traditional weight training methods for CMA / MA.......soso..........but decreases flexibility in time no matter how much you stretch

training with lreletively light weight for 1000's of reps (eg - weapons forms training etc)....far better.

but hey what do i know

:)

[FatherDog]

but hey what do i know

:)

Not much about exercise science, it would appear.

[stimulant]

though it is my job...........

and studies have shown that people can get equal gains in strengths via small load repetitions (plus the endurance gains) as those who use more traditional strength training ways such as the overload principle, and using a training weight that is 85% of your one rep max etc.

In the self same studies they used twins, one on high rep very low weight and one on high weight low reps, and they both gained very comparable gains in strength over a 3 month period.

I found this very interesting, but would have thought the overload method would bring about gains quicker than low weight high rep training.

[Vash]

though it is my job...........

and studies have shown that people can get equal gains in strengths via small load repetitions (plus the endurance gains) as those who use more traditional strength training ways such as the overload principle, and using a training weight that is 85% of your one rep max etc.

In the self same studies they used twins, one on high rep very low weight and one on high weight low reps, and they both gained very comparable gains in strength over a 3 month period.

I found this very interesting, but would have thought the overload method would bring about gains quicker than low weight high rep training.

Sounds like an interesting study - love to see a reference, the lab associated with it, etc.

Oh, just because something's your job doesn't mean your going to be very good at it.

If one continues on the same plan for too long, benefits will slow and reverse. Of course, you knew that.

I'm guessing you work at a Bally's. Maybe.

Oh, while I'm ****ing on people . . .

Ray, you're ego suxors. Lose it, lose the weed, lose the constant Taco Bell dinings (or eat less and eat it healthier, it's not hard to get decent-tasting food there with a minimum of really crappy calories) and see improvements.

Disagreements on the above points = incorrectness.

I am the Vash. The correct is my *****.

[stimulant]

I assume a lot of us are familiar with the book "Stretching Scientifically: A Guide to Flexibility Training" by Thomas Kurz

In his book he also uses high repetitions for strength gains (although he does advocate increasing the weight to), up to 100 reps.

As for the study, I previously mentioned I read it in either mens Health, Ultra fit, or runners world (not sure if you have these publicaitons in usa) about a couple of years back or something, wish I could refernece them properly.

I'm ok at my job, what and where is "Bally's"?

[ShaolinTiger00]

though it is my job...........

and studies have shown that people can get equal gains in strengths via small load repetitions (plus the endurance gains) as those who use more traditional strength training ways such as the overload principle, and using a training weight that is 85% of your one rep max etc.

In the self same studies they used twins, one on high rep very low weight and one on high weight low reps, and they both gained very comparable gains in strength over a 3 month period.

I found this very interesting, but would have thought the overload method would bring about gains quicker than low weight high rep training.

Source please?

[TenTigers]

even twins don't have exact genetic makeup=hardly a scientific study, such as the standard double blind with a control group using multiple subjects rather than simply two-even if they are twins.

[SevenStar]

The reason I consider it a somewhat of an arrogant style is because many of its practioners that I know readily leave their head unguarded to capture a leg. When pointing this out to them, they say they can either afford a hit -- or two :eek:-- on the way in or that they are so skillful they won't get hit at all.

Oh yea?

On that same note, I know PLENTY of traditional strikers who leave their head unguarded while striking. Even when you correct their guard, they still let their hands drop as they are punching. This will result in them getting KTFO. Coincidentally, they use the exact same excuse about not getting hit at all.

[SevenStar]

Sorry, I just don't view it as being defensive. We both obviously take our training seriously. Time and time again I have my training method poked fun at, I say I am willing to demonstrate it's effectiveness, and then I am labeled a hot head.

We are not old men contemplating the Tao too much just yet. We are young combatants. A theoretical disagreement is supposed to lead to combat. it's no big deal and not personal. It's stylelitical.


It's because of the WAY that you do things, bud. How many times have I disagreed with MK in various posts? How many times have we ended up challenging eachother? None. Because we don't have to. In the end, that wouldn't solve anything - I will keep training my way and he his. See, the thing is, you don't have to prove anything to us... most people here don't care enough to be entertained by it. We compete to test OURSELVES, not to prove our ability to anyone. MP has his goal set on the pan ams. I've got mine on the nationals and also doing some boxing. we each have goals the set to conquer ourselves. That's what a competitor does. Besides, that's where the real competition is.

I can get some guys from local school together, and we can have our own local tourney, but of those guys, how many of them are training to compete? it's a good bet that most of them aren't. Consequently, I'm not gonna get my best competition there. I will meet my best opponents by seeking guys training for the same thing I am - that's where the ring comes in. If you want to test yourself against competitors, go for it - you know LKFMDC has tourneys in your area. And considering the history you two have, I'm more than willing to bet he will set something up with pretty much any rules that you will agree to.

[SevenStar]

alright, enough of this. Can I get some manlove too?