Buddhists and chanting

[PaiLumDreamer]

I was raised a christian. I havnt practiced christianity for years. I have constantly said I was still searching for what I felt was right when people asked me what religion I was.

Anyway. Being raised a christain already put several stereotypes in my head...idols=bad. odd chanting=devils work. Whatever. Thats basically what I was told when I was a kid...

Anyway. The reason im posting at 2am (dead...tired.) is this:
I recently went to a Buddhist..."place"...(I dont know what you would call it?) and asked what buddhism was about. I liked what I was told...but I felt uneasy about a few things: The meditation they did was visualizing the 16th karampa (or something or another), then chanting karampa cheno over and over again after a small dialog. (It was guided meditation.)

Visualizing a person like that made me uneasy. I dont know why. Was it a worship of him, or what? I didnt understand WHY we had to visualize a man...what was the goal in that?

And chanting karampa cheno...that threw me off until i knew what it meant. "Power of Buddha be with us" or...something similar to that if I remember correctly. Anyway, it didnt seem bad.

But I still wasnt sure of myself. I enjoyed the meditation...but because I was left in the dark about WHY we were doing it that certain way left me uneasy. Could anyone shed some light on this subject?

Thanks for the help.

[WanderingMonk]

do you visualize christ?

If you met him while he was alive, would it creep you out, if a christian friend decide to visualize him? imitation of christ, I hear that often. imitating him in his action only? not his thoughts? not his compassion? may be his facial expression express what's in his heart?

visualization and chanting are methods to concentrate the mind. it doesn't have to be a rinpoche/guru, it can be a buddha statute, etc. It is a method to calm the mind.

If you were left alone and no one speaks to you,, and all you have is what is in your mind. what do you mind do on its own? can you calm it, channel it, can you empty it? can you make it as calm as still water?

the visualization and chanting are tools that buddhist use to achieve this.

peace is the only bliss. a calm mind is what get you there according to buddhist practice/theory.

fake to fake to real.

body is fake, idol is fake, calm mind is real.
existence in this life is impermanent, an idol is impermanent, a calm mind is view as permanent and ever lasting.

so buddhist use something that are fake, the body and image to achieve something that's real/concrete.

[Innocence]

hellow~

I think the type of meditation you're doing, the aim is to clear as much clutter from ur mind as possible, and to do that, you try to focus on one thing, here they've selected a person as their focal point, and in doing so, they try to narrow your thought down to a single point (the krampa? haha).

I was taught to do this by thinking only of my breathing, or by repetition of the buddha's name. But I think the aim is to clear your mind as much as you can (but thinking about not thinking about anything is of no use, so they make you think of ONE thing instead.)

(Hope that helps~)!
Bye!

EDIT:
I forgot to talk about ur chanting :D

Hehe, ok there are 2 types of chanting (I think).
One is chanting things in whatever language you speak (english prolly) and say something which makes coherent sense in english.
The 2nd type is to chant something in I think Sanscrit?? or Pali or one of those indian languages, which actually you're trying to sound the language out.

[mantis108]

Do you sing Hymns during services? Do you take a moment of silence before praying to your God? If you do these things, you are in essence chanting and meditating. Unless of course, you are just reciting the lyrics, following the tunes and you don't put your heart and mind into "singing" the Hymns. What so different is the Gregorian monks' Chant to a Yogie's Chant using Mantra such as OM, a single vibration that is all emcompassing? What is the true form, if any, of God anyway? Does it really matter to you?

The truth is the Church is affraid of every lay person that can seek Christ or in touch with God within him/herself. What good will the Church be then? What if I tell you that you can be trained to have happiness 24/7? You can condition your mind (actually mind-body continuum) with happiness but not sufferring. Do you believe that?

As for idol worship, why is all the Church has the crucifiction symbol? Why is it okay to do all those rituals (almost pagan esque I might add) but not okay for every other religon to have ritual of their own. Is Christianity really holier than all?

Sorry to break it to you the hard way, my friend. Faith is faith. It's an opinion. There's nothing wrong with that. But to be able to make fair judgement. It is prudent to study a religion before jumping into conclusion. Eastern religions, Hinduism, Buddhism, Daoism, etc.. are often introverted. Self help, starting with education, is more important than embracing the high power that most will call God. There are more to it than just blind faith. Beware of the rich preachers (merchants by the Church God, for the Church God and of the Church God ) who's trying to sell you salvation which already sowed its seed deep within you since the very beginning. Make your mind-body continuum a fertile ground and it will sprout, my friend. Christ, Vishnu, Buddha, immortals, whatever, are all an illusion of conciousness or Maya. Don't be fool by it. Be a light to youself and you shalt illuminate the path, the truth path and nothing but the truth path.

Mantis108

[CaptinPickAxe]

That was a wonderful post, Mantis108.

You actually took the words from my mouth. This has the potential to be a very good thread...I'm gonna sit back and watch

[monkeyfoot]

As for idol worship, why is all the Church has the crucifiction symbol? Why


A great thread here!!!

To start off, not all branched of christianity uses idols or idol worship. Jehovahs Witnesses are extremely against the idea of idols of any form.

I was brought up a strick jehovahs witness for the first 14 years of my life (im now 19) and the same was taught. I never got on with any of the teachings and ended up putting up a fight to leave, and finally at 14 years of age I did.

I searched about for a while and was immediatly drawn to daoism, moving onto buddhism and now as someone put it a half soaked taoist/buddhist. I meditate every day if I can.

PaiLumDreamer - I wouldnt worry about visualising.....its just a focus point for your meditation. If it makes you feel better then focus on breathing or on a chakra point like your 3rd eye. You will always at first feel uncomfortable with anything that would be considered 'bad/false' from a christian point of view.....whether you like it or not your mind has been conditioned to think like a christians.
After a while of researching into other belief systems you will be more comfortable, especially when you realise that all realigion is inherently the same!!!!!
In the end you left christianity for a reason and now you are searching....so dont feel 'bad' if you try something.....thats why you left in the first place.

if you want to talk about anything on the subject with someone from the same position then PM me your details.

craig

[mantis108]

Hi Captian,

Thanks, glad you enjoy the post. :)

Hi Monkeyfoot,

Oops, generalization, my bad... :o I am not familiar with the Jehovah witness. Are they the one with a publish magazine that's call the watch tower or something like that? It is really devoid of all symbolisms in its teaching? Anyway, thanks for the input and honest sharing of your journey. I think it serves as an inspiration to those who are at the fork of the road.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Royal Dragon]

I left the Christian religion (catholic) many years ago. After lumering about, I came to the conclusion that all things just are, and that's about all there is to it.

I do believe in some sort of supreame creator, but I don't believe he has much of a plan for all of us. I think he/she is more of a cross between and engineer, and an artists. He/she created everything, put it all in motion and interfears only when he feels like it, or it's really important. For example, somehow spuring my neighbor to move in next to me, thus causeing me to help her become sober.

In the end, I think he/she is just sitting back and watching where it all goes just like the rest of us.

I personally Like Wiccians. They have some cool charrecter, and have one simple rule for living life "Do as you will, but harm no one"

I examined the ten commandments, and feel most of them are more for maintaing controll, like the "Honor thy Father, and Mother". Thus establishing they are in controll (or the next link up in the christian chain of command). Well, what if your Father is a violent, abusive Drunk, and your Mother is a Crack *****?? then what?

There is one about not haveing any other gods before me. LOL!!! Like that one isn't there to get the power out of the competeing pagan religions of the time!!

Oh, what about the one about not worshiping "False Idols"? yup, controll the people! Make sure the rules only allow them to worship YOUR false Idols (Crusifix, Statue of Virgin Mary etc...)

The one about not swearing is Ok, but then again it's trying to controll conversation...but this time an attempt to keep it civil, so this one is not bad to me, but not nessasarily something that should tarnish the imortal soul if broken so I don't see a need for it in the "Big Ten"....Dammmit!

I feel "Remember the Sabbath day" is there more to make sure the masses reserve a day to come to church and donate for it's existance. If you have no specified "Sabbath Day" or a Specified time to meet for services, then it would be harder to get the cash flowwing

I think only the first 4 are valid

1. Though Shalt not Kill
2. Thalt Shalt Not commit adultery
3. Thought Shalt not steal
4. and that one about not lieing.

In the end, I like to summ it up as thus,

Do as you will, harm no one.

OR

DON'T KILL, STEAL, LIE OR CHEAT!!! ANYTHING ELSE IS COOL!! :D

[Vajramusti]

Buddhist chants are not all the same- there are different paths... variations of mahayana (dhyan, chan, rinzai, shoto etc), theravada(Sri Lanka, Burma, Thailand etc) and vajrayana(tibet)... some chant more some less depending on the dharma teacher.

I was born onto a very orthodox upper caste Hindu family, was exposed to a considerable understanding of Catholicism, exposed to considerable amount of protestant theology, through friends in my early environment to various versions of Islam- I walked away from most of it, rejected the inegalitarian aspects of Hinduism
and became interested and began to investigate- reflect on and began to practice Buddhism(not Rinzai, and not Vajrayana). Of course I am not perfect- working through my karmic inheritance and habits.Today is a new day.

It has helped break up ideological dogmatism, helps me with freshness in thinking
and enhances my awareness in my martial art and dogmatic over commitment to a technique.

joy chaudhuri

[monkeyfoot]

Oh, what about the one about not worshiping "False Idols"? yup, controll the people! Make sure the rules only allow them to worship YOUR false Idols (Crusifix, Statue of Virgin Mary etc...)

Well anyone who followed the bible propperly wouldnt have any idols at all (like jehovahs Wits). They also would have any ****sexual priests.

craig

[Royal Dragon]

No, but daughters would be haveing sex with thier fathers!

[monkeyfoot]

that was only in order to create enough people in the beginning.

If you actually read the bible you will see that it incest, ****s and beastiality were against the mosiac law.

so no, you wouldnt have daugthers getting it on with their fathers.

craig

[Royal Dragon]

No, not in the beginning, it is somewhere in the middle of the Old testament. The story goes something like this.

There were two daughters born to a farmer. Since he had no sons to carry on the family line, and his wife had passed the Two daughters took him to a cave and got him very drunk and made Love to him in the hopes of becomming pregnant with Sons, which they did.

I found this by accident in religion class as a freshman in High school when we were supposed to be reading passages from another page close by.

[David Jamieson]

um, that's the story of Lot, who after the destruction of sodom and gemorrah thought that he and his daughters were the only ones left alive. Lot's wife was turned to a pillar of salt for looking back on the destruction of their city.

anyway, the daughters got dad drunk and fugged him while he was pizzisheld and so they carried on like good primitive folks ought to do. :p

btw and fwiw, the old testament and the new testament contradict each other on so many levels it is quite amazing. Even in the very first few pages, god is plural not single and it gets thicker and thicker from there.

if one were to actually read the thing, I think a lot of people would just give up on it entirely due to the sheer inanity of a lot of the text.

the new testament is much more meaningful to contemporary time IN MY OPINION :p The old testamnet is a hodge podge collection of stories filtered through various commitees over vast lengths of time and the message in them is much more convoluted and subject to interpretation that has been shown to cause schism and crazyiness throughout the history of the christian world.

time to cut that baby loose methinks. :D

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

There are some sounds that are repeated in a chant-like manner, that are used for activating specific energies.. these sounds have certain vibrational frequencies that are conducive to energy work and healing.. aside from that, i am a little skeptical of chanting as a means to an end.. I have seen too many people getting stuck in the ritual and missing the goal.. If i were pressed to choose a label, it would be Taoist.. i favor its simplicity and practical approach to life..

After many years of studying various religions and philosophies it occurs to me that there are certain common elements to most.. i think those common elements are inherent to human existence, a part of the spirit that is connected to the "whole".. other less common themes are cultural interpretations and the source of much needless conflict.. we instinctivly sense that there is a greater force in the universe, an architect by default.. our languages and conceptual capabilities have labeled this force as a "creator".. but, i sense it as an enabler, it enables life and existence as an expression of its own existence.. i sense everything to be a manifestation of a basic energy or force.. energy vibrates at frequencies that manifest form, shape and mass, hence, physical existence.. yet, it is all still energy and connected to all other energies.. i sense that we are like snowflakes, unique patterns of exactly the same "stuff".. some call that stuff energy or spirit or Tao or God or Allah or, or, or... there is a unique sensation when a group of people vocalize specific healing sounds, they achieve vibrational frequencies that are tangibly present at the core of our being.. or, a good drumming circle where rhythms and vibrations affect our basic energies and an altered state ensues.. although we are unique patterns, our basic "stuff" holds us together as One.. good "chanting" can connect us at that level..

Be well..

[David Jamieson]

You're a new ager aren't you Bob. :p

[TenTigers]

david, the Old Testament has God as Plural because the concept of God is that which is made up of a balance of opposite energies, as in everything in nature, both male and female. Life is formed by the coming together of both forces throughout nature. We have that spark within us as well, and therefore we have the potential to become either. The original "Holy Trinity" is the Father, Mother, and Child. Makes sense, don't it? It is the New Testament that has re-written, filtered and altaered the scriptures in accordance with their own personal power struggle.They even wrote out the role of the female in creation. In God's name, and in the birth of Christ-immaculate conception! One of the names of God in the new Testament in Genisis combines four letters and each letter has a meaning and a value. The letters stand for a male, female, union, and life-the name of God is the act of creation itself. Do a search on the Council at Nice (sp?) perhaps it should be the New Testamant that should be cut free. There is a reason Jews don't follow the new testament. There is a reason Kung-Fu guys don't practice Shaolin Kempo.
The part in the Ten Commandments about remembering the sabbath day and to keep it holy is not at all about having people come in to temple and contribute-maybe that's the way Christians observe it, but there is a much deeper meaning to this.
To remember the sabbath day is to take time out of your week, pu aside your work, toil, job,all the bull**** and focus inwardly. Reunite with your god, family, and self. The sabbath dinner table is one place that the family can finally get together, and spend real quality time. "Quality time" is not a new concept. Even then, they were aware that "Life gets in the way", we get caught up in all our daily bulls**, the petty stuff, egos, whatever. Take a breather and focus on what is really important in life. Your self, your family, your inner peace. When was the last time your family sat at the table all together, and actually discussed things that go on in their day, in their lives? Too often, we don't even eat together. You grab dinner at work, on the run, kids are eating and running out with their friends, or back to the x-box. A simple thing like the sabbath day and its meal has greater significance than you realise. Remember it and keep it holy.
Wiccans also say, "All the gods are one" they also realise that it does not matter what shape or form you worship God in. I really don't think God cares either.
Man by nature, gravitates towards spirituality. no matter what culture you look at, you will find spirituality, and you will find them all saying basically the same thing. Love your fellow man, do no harm, cultivate the spirit.
Robert Fulghum also mentioned, hold each other's hand, say please and thank you, and share. I think time out to share a cookie is also important.

[mantis108]

Good stuff, but then shouldn't it be all men except trolls are gravitated toward spirituality? :D Is Internat Trollism a form of spirituality as well? Just pulling your legs but something to ponder on too. ;)

BTW, guys, if we keep this discussion up, we might set a record in agreeing with each other on record time. lol...

Warm regards

Mantis108

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


You're a new ager aren't you Bob.
David Jamieson: that might be a "leading question" in a court room setting.. i'm not sure what that is, exactly.. could you define "new ager"?

If a "new ager" is one that can see past the dogma and ritual to discern some basic elements of existence, i am hoping to fit into that aspect.. if a "new ager" is willing to think for themselves rather than buy into the status quo, i might accept that definition.. but, if it's the "woo woo" types, nope, i'm pretty well grounded.. i try to find value in every experience and perspective, if i do i add it to my own value system and prosper from open-mindedness..


Be well..

[David Jamieson]

Bob-

it was an offhand remark.

I really don't care about anyone elses belief system. People can and do believe what they like whether it's true or not. Truth has little to do with religious belief.

[FuXnDajenariht]

im somewhat of an atheist and still my thoughts on religion are subconsciously colored by christianity. i think that goes for everyone whos had a certain religious belief forced upon them.

but if your trying to move away from that i dont see why you should feel uncomfortable. just know that buddhism is a non-theistic religion, and i agree that researching and reading as much as you can is a majorly good idea. getting it straight from the source is always the best bet. then no one can lead you wrong cuz you know what you know.

too often people readily jump for someone elses interpretation when its right there in black and white. people look at me stupid when i say jesus said some of the same things as buddha. you can find some of the same themes in every religion. do unto other as you would have them do unto you. sound familiar? thats reaping what you sow, better known as the law of karma.

[TenTigers]

"Truth has little to do with religious belief."
hmmm, wouldn't that be the other way around? :D

[dougadam]

In the bible it says to meditate on Gods word. I feel the main question here is what type of meditation?

Also in the ten commandments it says idol worship is wrong.

Exodus 20:1-26
1 And God proceeded to speak all these words, saying:
2 “I am Jehovah your God, who have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slaves. 3 You must not have any other gods against my face.
4 “You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth. 5 You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them, because I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation, in the case of those who hate me; 6 but exercising loving-kindness toward the thousandth generation in the case of those who love me and keep my commandments.

[Chief Fox]

Yeah, there's a bunch of crazy stuff in the bible.

http://www.white-history.com/bible/bbc1.htm

[David Jamieson]

Yeah, there's a bunch of crazy stuff in the bible.

http://www.white-history.com/bible/bbc1.htm

yeah, like ALL of Leviticus! that's just whack! oh, and ezikiel was clearly into the shroom patch. the old testament has suffered a lot of interpretational abuse over time...actually, a lot of it has. god's a pretty bipolar disorder type though when you add it all up, as in, though shalt not kill, but go over there and kill these dudes, and so on. crazy is an understatement, but its no more whack than the merit system.

honestly, a lot of it is designed societal control. no belief = no powers that be and no reps of that power perceived or otherwise in which case, no control for one over another. but then, i think that's what most religion is in a nutshell. some good laws for governance of the self and a whole lot of nonsense that even the most foolish has difficulty abiding by.

but again, only my opinion, and whatever floats yer boat. just don't touch my stuff and expect some smackage if you become intrusive or overbearing. lol

well, i'm off to smite some dirty b@stards cause my god (cthulu) is into that sort of thing. :D

[TenTigers]

“You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth. 5 You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them, because I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation, in the case of those who hate me; 6 but exercising loving-kindness toward the thousandth generation in the case of those who love me and keep my commandments"
In this rendition, it is not as cut and dry, yet it is still pretty straightforward.
All these describe outward appearances rather than inner core spiritual essence of the deity-it is like the finger pointing at the moon. Jehova is a mispronounciation of the four letter name of God-of which there is actually no pronounciation, simply different manifestations of being. Each arrangement of the tetragrammaton is a different manifestation of the deity. The punnishment for error is the failure to achieve spirituality and passing on this "fall from grace' to you subsquent generations. You do it to yourselves, without any action required from God.
Loving kindness is enlightenment. The Hebrew concept-that enlightenment and union with the deity is possible, as opposed to the Christian idea that you need the church and priests for guidance-guidance yes, obedience no.
It is saying nothing different than Buddhism or Taoism, or any other spiritual path, but due to the civilization, enviornment,language, etc the messege might seem different. The scriptures, after all were written by men. Influenced perhaps by the divine, but over time, and ego, selfishness, power tripping, etc, the messege was corrupted and lost.
can't see the forest for the trees, I suppose.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


It is saying nothing different than Buddhism or Taoism, or any other spiritual path Well.. i tend to disagree.. to select certain passages and equate those passages to other spiritual paths fails to see the biblical plan in its full measure.. The biblical "God" creates beings with a free will, then punishes them "for eternity" for using that free will except as approved by said "God".. then, said "God" sends his "Son" to redeem the beings (get out of jail free card).. here, is a major flaw, where other spiritual paths hold the beings accountable for their existence, the hebrews designed a system where you can screw-up and get forgiven.. nice plan! do what you want, just be sure to ask "God" to forgive you..

If you look at the cultural history of differing spiritual paths you can see the trends that set those paths in place.. Christianity seems to know its shortcomings and develops a ritual that makes it okay.. sure, alot of BS to erase the "sin", and a heap of guilt to to remind you of the infraction.. but, some burnt offerings, a confession, a short swim.. and, bingo, you're back in the "Kingdom"..

I see little in common with the Christian path and the Taoist path.. the Buddhist path is just too sad to get into.. it buys the guilt trip then recycles it until you get it right.. well meaning, i'm sure, but an unlikely situation and an unnecessary burden on an otherwise magnificent existence.. Taoists are basically Eastern Wiccans (or, considering chronology, Wiccans are Western Taoists).. cultural differences aside, similar perspectives on the mechanics of existence..

The Biblical "God" requires love and devotion for salvation from eternal suffering.. i say that Love bought with promises or coerced by fear is not true love.. it is conditional and is designed to manipulate otherwise reasonable beings into submission to an unreasonable philosophy..

It seems to me that common-sense selects the most reasonable path to preserve harmony among the human tribes.. there's just too little common-sense now days.. that common sense is inherent, spiritually.. we have to "choose" to act against it.. and the first deviation is when we decide we deserve more than someone else..

Be well..

[TenTigers]

The Hebrews don't worship Christ, (Messianic Jews, or Jews for Jesus don't count. They are simply a brainwashing cult) so the whole sending God's son to redem them is a misinterpetation by the Christians as to the messege Jesus was delivering. Hwas a "rabbi" teaching spirituality, never at any time preaching anything other than Judaism. Only after his demise did they concentrate on the finger and miss out on all that heavenly glory. Kind of like the guys who follow the shoe sect and the gourd sect.*Life of Brian. The word messiah-meshiach does not refer to a person, but a spiritual awakening of the people of the planet. For the most part,Jewish spirituality is conceptual, like Kung-Fu. Compare Taoism, Wiccan and Kabbalistic concepts. They all seem pretty much in aggreement. as far as Christianity? It's the Shaolin Kempo of spirituality-for those who cannot, and will not. Yep I'm a snob. I'm a Gung-Fu snob, and a spiritual snob. The difference is, spiritual snobs don't have the Holier than thou attitude.-unless they're Christians. Again, kinda like Shaolin Kempo.
welcome to the land of the lost. :p thbbbbbbbbb!

[Ray Pina]

But I still wasnt sure of myself. I enjoyed the meditation...but because I was left in the dark about WHY we were doing it that certain way left me uneasy. Could anyone shed some light on this subject?
Thanks for the help.

This is all actually quite easy and EVERY major religion has made a mess of it:

You have Buddha Nature, God, Tao inside of you. You are it.

Every single thing in your life has been the result of your actions, thoughts and words. The reason this post is here is because you posted it. I responded and we have created this.

What started all of this? Anyone who tells you an absolute answer is lying to you. Know that you control your life..... through the ups and the downs. You'll experience both.

People will tell you a lot of things, what is possible and what is not possible. In the end, you have to decide how you want to live your life .... as someone actively participating and creating it, or as a bystandard watching it. Either way, you can't help effect your life by your thoughts, words and actions.

[dougadam]

Why do you put all Christians in the same category? Many Christian’s beliefs differ dramatically.

[Christopher M]

Because they're bigots.

[dougadam]

Because they're bigots.

What are your religious beliefs, if any?