Hand conditioning

[Vasquez]

How do you condition your hands? sand bag -> hot water -> gravel bag -> tree trunk-> concrete / marble

[David Jamieson]

mung bean bag for palm/back/knife/heel

heavy bag for 'other' :p

[Royal Dragon]

I don't condition my hands anymore. I just do Qi Gong now.

When I did though, I used a canvas bag filled with Mung beans for the top and palm and knife edge of my hand as well as striking it wiht finger tips and knuckles.

I used a concrete cylinder to strike the bone Karate guys allways use to break things, and the other side of my hand.

I was useing sand buckets for a while, enough to see "Some" forward progress, but not enough to develop any special, or noticable skill.

I blew a hole in a cinder bock wall with a palm strike once though, so I know my methods work.

[Dale Dugas]

I use a bag of steel shot to train my iron palm.

I have other various sized bags to train my claws, by grabbing bags I toss up as well as play catch with a partner.

I also train my grip strength as your hands will love you for it.

I use COC(Captains of Crush) grippers as well as plate loading grip machine to blast my lower arms.

I still train my iron palm, though I seem to gravitate toward more qi gong like Royal Dragon, maybe thats a natural progression.

Dale

[David Jamieson]

The gongs and jows used in this type of training have a definite effect.
I have always used them in tandem with conditioning.

[Royal Dragon]

I have also found that wrist training for Chin Na is a great cool down after iron hand work. I used to do the solo exercises normally, but I'm sure the partner work would be even better.

[Royal Dragon]

I still train my iron palm, though I seem to gravitate toward more qi gong like Royal Dragon, maybe thats a natural progression.

Reply]
Yes, I think that it is the progression. I have been toying with the idea that when you are young it's more important to do conditioning, basics and ALOT of partner work (resisting, and not). But at some point in time you begin to realise that continued fighting all the time no longer improves your fighting skills. You "Top Out" so to speak. For example, I don't recall hearing about Ken Shamrock, or Keith Hackney fighting anytime reacently. I know both coach though.

Once you get to that point, I think the forms, and Qi Gong's become much more important because they allow you to maintain your health and fitness levels while at the same time running through your curriculem, and thus keeping it fresh. This may not make you a better fighter, BUT, it does help alot with being a better teacher, as you allways have the entire curriculem at your finger tips because you have been reviewing it when you practice the form.

[Samurai Jack]

Years ago I started with a canvas bag full of rice. After a year or so of that, I switched to sand. After a couple of years of that, I switched to gravel, and after a solid two or three years of that, I started hitting bare concrete. I got some decent sized callouses on my knuckles from the concrete, which seem to help quite a bit with hitting hard surfaces with the knuckles. I understand that some people think it's unnecessary.

I just started training with a bag full of steel shot about a month ago, and I've watched my penetrating power improve from it. I suppose that I may have been unconciously pulling my punches on the concrete in order to avoid injury. It's also possible that I just wasn't used to having my punches go "into" something since the concrete either breaks, or just stops the punch altogether. I wasn't able to get very deep into the steel-shot bag at first, but it seems like I'll probably be hitting concrete again pretty soon, this time through the bag.

Of all the martial arts exercises I've done over the years, I feel like I've honestly learned the most about myself, and what daily hard training really means, through hand conditioning. Without a doubt, it's been the most rewarding part of my spiritual journey with the martial arts.

[Vasquez]

You are so hard core training your hands on concrete.

[Ray Pina]

When I was a kid I hit the makaware

When I did S. Mantis I did iron palm with heavy sandbags at my sifu's place but I don't know what was in them but they were almost as hard as rock .... lots of jow.

Now I twist the entire arm, right up to the finger tips, making it sort of like a cable and put my intention where needed. I can strike the throat and soft cavities with my fingers no problem. Trying to develop it so I can strike the chest too, but wouldn't yet. I don't put too much time into this though. It's more of a side benefit of the twisting.

[PangQuan]

I don't recall hearing about Ken Shamrock, or Keith Hackney fighting anytime reacently. I know both coach though.

Shamrock actually fought in a UFC match not too long ago, he kinda got his ass kicked...

[Samurai Jack]

Training on concrete isn't hardcore. It's relativly easy if you've taken the time to condition yourself with a few years of more basic surfaces, such as sand and gravel bags. Pan Ching Fu has says that his iron-plate training is pretty effortless, and it probably is... for him! You've just got to be consistent. The hardest part is starting the training. Once your conditioning improves, it's gets easier to keep it up.

[TangLangCh'uan]

mung beans found ? i have an iron palm training bag, but after looking around for "mung beans" and having numerous store clerks look at me like i had three heads, i gave up looking for them and filled it with black beans. i'm assuming this will have the same effect / serve the same purpose, unless, of course, there is something in mung beans which is absorbed by the palms through the striking. any info will be appreciated.

-christopher

[PangQuan]

mung beans are small, about the size of a b b like used in a bb gun. thats reall the only difference. I am sure the size has some sort of different effect...

[Vasquez]

What about training on tree trunks like a big oak tree. My sifu told me he used to hit buffalos.

[SimonM]

My sifu told me he used to hit buffalos.

ROTFLMFAO!!!!!

[Robert Young]

Actually any beans will work. The diffferece is that mung bean are very tough so you can hit your bag longer. And yes, using the beans is to absorb the power from the hitting.

If you have hard time to find mung bean, go to oriental grocery store like Chinese or Vietnamese store and ask for green bean. Green bean is the chienese name for mung bean. It comes with small bag about 14 oz. usually.

Good luck.


> mung beans found ? i have an iron palm training bag, but after looking around
> for "mung beans" and having numerous store clerks look at me like i had three
> heads, i gave up looking for them and filled it with black beans. i'm assuming
> this will have the same effect / serve the same purpose, unless, of course,
> there is something in mung beans which is absorbed by the palms through the
> striking. any info will be appreciated.

[PlumDragon]

I use small river pebbles (25 lb. bag = $2.50 at Home Depot) in a canvas bag on top of a stack of cinder blocks.

I try to compliment my training with qigong before and after.

[David Jamieson]

you can progress up from beans to smooth stones to iron shot or copper bbs.

sand is not so good because it compacts and it soon is just feeding back all the force into your hand. comcrete would have the same effect. It really isn't an efficient or safe way to train your hands. If you're doing this, please accept my suggestion that you are doing so in err and switch to a method that will allow you to progress instead of going nowhere with it and risking even more sever affliction in your autumn years.

Training does not mean "if it doesn't hurt it's no good". Training for things such as iron shirt or iron palm or iron what have you are gradual processes that must be opened to continued to the duration of teh opening training and then maintained at a level that you are happy with and without causing damage to the body in any way other than perhaps a superficial bruise now and then.

even makaware boards have give in them to reduce the amount of force that is fed back into the hand. most are mounted on a spring board or have a cotton padded surface.

even mook jongs have give in them and padding for strikes. there is a reason for this.

concrete slapping, packed sand slapping...well, you're really just asking for trouble is you continue sustained training in this.

[phantom]

Kung Lek, what if you put the sand in a wallbag and punch it? Many wing chun people do this. Thanks in advance.

[David Jamieson]

The sand in a heavy bag for instance is buffered with cloth, beads and other more absorbing materials.

I don't work with a wing chun wall bag so i don't know if there are other media in the bag along with the sand.

[shirkers1]

for iron palm "lead shot" call your gun smith $25 bucks for 25lb bags I believe you need around 4 bags If done right you will actually see results faster than with mung beads or anything else. You can beat the hell out of those pillow cases and you'll never see results and you'll probably never get injured practicing either. Which is why those places can sell those pillow cases filled with mung beads without being sued in injury cases. With the lead shot you don't beat the bag, the weight of the hand dropping from nose level is all the force needed for the training. Palm, back of the hand, heel. That's it, and right hand only.

With this in mind you don't train the fingers, wrist or knuckle joints. You will cause damage in the long run. Sand, mung beads etc little to no results after a long period of time. Lead shot, the real deal.

[shirkers1]

In our line of mantis pretty much everything we do is conditioning in one way or the other. From slaps in drills to punching the palm of the other hand during forms, finger pushups, etc.

[TenTigers]

never,NEVER use lead shot. Lead is poisonous. will absorb into the body , and the dust will also be breathed in. Total insanity. Use steel, or copper bbs, ..
mung beans are used as a first stage in training, and there is a medicinal effect of the mung beans that help heal the hands as well. Hand conditioning is based on gradual and progressive training on a continuous basis. BTW, in later stages of training, you can and do hit pretty forceful. You might feel that you are making great progress because you can hit things harder, but if you do not train properly, you will sustain irrepairable damage. Training right side only will also result in an imbalance in the body. This is not simply external conditioning. There is internal training as well, and doing this incorrectly will result in an imbalance.

[shirkers1]

never,NEVER use lead shot. Lead is poisonous. will absorb into the body , and the dust will also be breathed in. Total insanity. Use steel, or copper bbs, ..
mung beans are used as a first stage in training, and there is a medicinal effect of the mung beans that help heal the hands as well. Hand conditioning is based on gradual and progressive training on a continuous basis. BTW, in later stages of training, you can and do hit pretty forceful. You might feel that you are making great progress because you can hit things harder, but if you do not train properly, you will sustain irrepairable damage. Training right side only will also result in an imbalance in the body. This is not simply external conditioning. There is internal training as well, and doing this incorrectly will result in an imbalance.

First of all, the iron palm jow used is the medicinal healer and is intended to clog the pores when lead is used, second the proper bag has a bladder in it to keep any dust from leaking. If dust does leak then the jow takes care of that. If done right you don't need to slap the **** out of the bag, with the mung bead bags you can slap it silly and won't cause damage to yourself. As for long term training you will hit harder because your hand will get heavier from the density of the hand tightening up. The weight of the arm and hand dropping is all you need. The old way is the method I'm speaking of. Things needed to be trained and conditioned quickly in the old days. It will take you years to condition using mung beads and sand.

Training the left side causes reverberations that cause damage to the sac around the heart and can cause death after long term use. The right hand is further away from the heart, and the body absorbs the shock before reaching the heart.

[TenTigers]

jow does not seal or clog the pores, it is absorbed through the pores. This is not the old method, because they NEVER used lead shot. None of the herbs in jow are used to counteract lead poisoning, how will you know when the "bladder" has ruptured? Hmmmm? And you can certainly do damage slapping the mung beans silly, silly! If you are talking of conditioning quickly as in "the old days" then it doesn't matter because you will not need any sensitivity,mobility or coordination in your hands-you are expendable. As for lead poisoning? You won't be there in the long run anyway, so by the time it would take its toll, youwould have already been a memory. That is not traditional iron palm, it is making your hand into a foot.
Now I get it. This is the Darwin Award Winning Iron palm Method.
How silly of me not to realise. Well, far be it for me to tell you how to train. You seem to be an expert.
BTW-where should I send the flowers?

[Dale Dugas]

Buffalo?

****, I would be scared the beast would poop all over me if I were to hit it just right.

Never have hit trees. Just bags, and people :D :eek: :D

[Samurai Jack]

There appears to be some serious arm-chair kungfu going on here. Hand conditioning is not magic, and it isn't rocket science either. Tentigers is right, jow dosen't "clog pores" in order to protect you from the effects of breathing lead dust! That isn't even logical. All jow does is heal up any injuries incurred during training, and supports the toughening of the tissues.

The pericardium, or what some are apparently referring to as a "heart sack", cannot be damaged by iron-palm training any more than your proboscus can, although apparently hitting lead bags with your right hand only may cause damage to the meninges (that's "brain bag" for the medical experts out there). :)

For any new people who may read this thread: please, please DO NOT follow any advice that you get from the internet concerning hand conditioning. You will probably end up hurting yourself listening to most of these people.

[shirkers1]

jow does not seal or clog the pores, it is absorbed through the pores. This is not the old method, because they NEVER used lead shot. None of the herbs in jow are used to counteract lead poisoning, how will you know when the "bladder" has ruptured? Hmmmm? And you can certainly do damage slapping the mung beans silly, silly! If you are talking of conditioning quickly as in "the old days" then it doesn't matter because you will not need any sensitivity,mobility or coordination in your hands-you are expendable. As for lead poisoning? You won't be there in the long run anyway, so by the time it would take its toll, youwould have already been a memory. That is not traditional iron palm, it is making your hand into a foot.
Now I get it. This is the Darwin Award Winning Iron palm Method.
How silly of me not to realise. Well, far be it for me to tell you how to train. You seem to be an expert.
BTW-where should I send the flowers?

You guys act like there's no poisons in jow that you rub into your skin after training. So lead in a sealed bladder that doesn't make contact with the skin is wrong? this is a thread about conditioning the hand, I'm telling you another way that people train iron palm. Accept it or don't it's a fact and it's a tested and tried method that has been used for decades and will continue to be used because it is effective. Wow tiger you're pretty witty, I'm impressed at your skills at banter. I think I'll go cry now because you hurt my feelings. :( Do some research into how other people train before getting all high and mighty, you might learn something new.

I've seen your way and I've seen the way practiced by my people and I know what works. Maybe you should stick to what you know before you dog on how others practice. Preparing the jow (heating and soaking your hand) before you train opening up the pores and allowing the jow to penetrate, then in the cooling process the poors are clogged. The jow I use has ingrediants in the iron palm jow that clog the pores of the hand to keep the poisons of the lead shot from entering the blood stream (yes lead shot not monk beads or steel). So don't speak like you know what jow I use and what's in it.. Do you honestly think the jow you use is the only palm jow out there? :rolleyes:

So when you heat the jow up and soak your hand in it before you begin the training, this is where the clogging occurs as well as beginning the healing process. Additionally the iron palm jow is used for injuries that the body knows is going to happen and you are prepared for through chi kung etc, where as the bruise jow is for injuries that the body doesn't know is going to be inflicted apon it. I already answered the dust comment. The bag we use has a bladder on the inside to prevent any leaking, you check the bladder periodically for leaks. This method has been used for decades with no deaths due to lead poison or stunting injuries, so keep slapping your pillows and steel shot with both hands, fingers and knuckles. :rolleyes: Your way you see all the symptoms you've explained, my way none and with faster better results. Once again I said properly trained, there are precautions. The lead has a different dense feel, the steel is more dead feel to it, the beads are simply a pillow that you can hit on forever and get no where. You get more from two man slap drills than with those things.

Samurai.... iron palm is jow for injuries your body is preparing for and healing after I explained the clogging part. Bruise jow is for trauma/injuries that the body doesn't know is going to happen to it. once again, bladder inside of bag... No dust. Maybe you should read in depth before trying to be smart and witty like tiger.

In the end we can all do our thing since we're just arm chair kung fu experts though and that's it. ;) Maybe I'm just Vasquez pulling your chain? Either way what does it matter, information is shared either look into it and see if it's valid or keep on keepin on jack. It's no skin off of my teeth.
__________________

[anerlich]

My sifu told me he used to hit buffalos

Buffalos don't hit back. Oh, wait ....

I used to hit my teddy bear as a kid. And the karma's been a b*tch.

[Samurai Jack]

First of all, the iron palm jow used is the medicinal healer and is intended to clog the pores when lead is used, second the proper bag has a bladder in it to keep any dust from leaking. If dust does leak then the jow takes care of that. If done right you don't need to slap the **** out of the bag, with the mung bead bags you can slap it silly and won't cause damage to yourself. As for long term training you will hit harder because your hand will get heavier from the density of the hand tightening up. The weight of the arm and hand dropping is all you need. The old way is the method I'm speaking of. Things needed to be trained and conditioned quickly in the old days. It will take you years to condition using mung beads and sand.

Training the left side causes reverberations that cause damage to the sac around the heart and can cause death after long term use. The right hand is further away from the heart, and the body absorbs the shock before reaching the heart.

Look, no smack talking is intended, but you're giving some pretty unusual advice. You're basically saying that the way 90% of martial artists past and present are training their hands is wrong, and that your way is better because it's faster. Never mind that what you're recommending is actually less safe than the conventional manner. Never mind that the practical results from such a program are the same as the conventional manner.

The bottom line is that my experience and the experiences of thousands before me is that progressive training of the hands using first softer, and eventually harder mediums, is a safe and effective method for training your hands.

I can't vouch for your method because I haven’t used it. I can tell you though that in my experience starting off hitting a very hard and dense material like lead is dangerous. It's not dangerous because you'll hurt your organs, but because you'll hurt your hands. The organ damage comes from the gradual build up of lead in the body. Lead poisoning is usually a slow process that comes from touching lead, breathing lead (even occasionally as you check your bladder), exposing yourself to minute almost insignificant amounts over a period of time. No amount of jow is going to heal the stress fractures and ligament damage, nor prevent the slow build-up of lead such a method will incur fast enough to continue such a training method for the long term. It dosen't seem worth it to me.

Long term training over a period of years is what internal Iron Palm is all about. It's not a quick method, but it is safe and effective.

[shirkers1]

I didn't throw the first stone, a couple of guys dicided to throw in some personal insults trying to make me out to be a loon and a retard. You can challange the method which is what this thread is inteded for, different ways to condition the hand, but no need to throw in "witty" comments attacking the writer. ;)

First of all your basic training is getting your hands conditioned. Or at least in my line of kung fu. Wall bag, two man drills etc has already laid the foundation for toughening up those areas. The way we, GM changs, some schools in canada, and OH train Iron palm is the way I've spoken of and I'm sure there's more if we look into it. Although some use steel because lead is harder to come by and has the stigma along with it. It can be used safely.. The speed of the hand dropping is no quicker than a breath out equalling the weight of the hand dropping on the bag. That's all you need with a denser material. Long term use with the fingers, joints, knuckles etc will cause damage.

I'm not saying it's the only way. I'm telling you why some have chosen to do it this way. It's up to you to look into it and see if it has any merit. Like I said I've looked into both and I've seen this to work out better for me as well as others.

So with that said I'll bow out because I have nothing else to offer the convo. Hope to hear of some other alternatives to the commercial methods used by the community here.

[shirkers1]

I'd also like to add that my knowledge of lead contact is with first hand experience. I worked for years at harwick chemical, where I made rubber base and vynal products using lead in the batches in dust form and solid. As well as stripping bridges of lead base paint when I was an inspector for LTV steel in cleveland. So I know the dangers, but I also know that it can be handled safely. I don't know what your first hand knowledge is of lead contact, I'm not going to attack that because I don't know. But when you try to make me out to be a moron with no brain, I take offense at that. Especially when I have first hand experience with that product.

[EarthDragon]

Shirkers,
While I am your mantis brother and almost always agree with what you say as most of it holds good merit. I will definalty have to disagree with you on this subject.

I am kung fu brothers with sifu john newberry whom studied directly under Brain Grey for many years. and am relatively new to iron palm, less than 10 years. i still have lea many people have different views about proper hand conditioning while a very few are correct.............. most are not.

1. NEVER use lead.......... iron pellets are the best, not stainless steel, or
copper, nor lead ........these elements are non exsistant in the human body.
and toxic again TOXIC.

2. Dit dat jow does not clog the pores! actually just the opposite it opens them
and allows the eptidermis to absorb the medicne into the dermis and tissue.to
dispense the blood platlets and crystiline.

3. while you are correct that at first force should not be used but rather using
gravity to drop the hand fom shoulder level will have no adverse effects on
arthritus, blood clotting are meridan damage.

4. You should never take advice about this type of thing from the internet as most
people are not experts nor teachers. but rather they simply state an opionon.
This is like taking legal advice from a person in jail.

[shirkers1]

Shirkers,
While I am your mantis brother and almost always agree with what you say as most of it holds good merit. I will definalty have to disagree with you on this subject.

I am kung fu brothers with sifu john newberry whom studied directly under Brain Grey for many years. and am relatively new to iron palm, less than 10 years. i still have lea many people have different views about proper hand conditioning while a very few are correct.............. most are not.

1. NEVER use lead.......... iron pellets are the best, not stainless steel, or
copper, nor lead ........these elements are non exsistant in the human body.
and toxic again TOXIC.

2. Dit dat jow does not clog the pores! actually just the opposite it opens them
and allows the eptidermis to absorb the medicne into the dermis and tissue.to
dispense the blood platlets and crystiline.

3. while you are correct that at first force should not be used but rather using
gravity to drop the hand fom shoulder level will have no adverse effects on
arthritus, blood clotting are meridan damage.

4. You should never take advice about this type of thing from the internet as most
people are not experts nor teachers. but rather they simply state an opionon.
This is like taking legal advice from a person in jail.

Thanks for the input E D, and thanks for stating your thoughts without a personal attack. :)

[Samurai Jack]

I didn't throw the first stone, a couple of guys dicided to throw in some personal insults trying to make me out to be a loon and a retard. You can challange the method which is what this thread is inteded for, different ways to condition the hand, but no need to throw in "witty" comments attacking the writer. ;)

When people make arguments based on medicine, but they don't know the medical terminology for what they are referring too, it tends to indicate that they haven't done the research to back up thier claims. I apologize if my comments offended you. It was an attempt at humor, but perhaps inappropriate for a serious discussion. :o

[shirkers1]

When people make arguments based on medicine, but they don't know the medical terminology for what they are referring too, it tends to indicate that they haven't done the research to back up thier claims. I apologize if my comments offended you. It was an attempt at humor, but perhaps inappropriate for a serious discussion. :o


I like to use basic terms instead of trying to make myself out to be smarter than everyone else like some people. I know what the name of the sac around the heart is, just didn't want to look it up on how to spell it. Sorry I couldn't get you the detailed medical dictionary terms. You knew what I was talking about and I think the point was made. So take it how you will.

Joking around is my forte, as by my signitures etc. But I think you as well as others know that there were some "witty" comments at my disposal.. ;)

any way I'm done bro, good luck and train hard.

[dougadam]

Training on concrete isn't hardcore. It's relativly easy if you've taken the time to condition yourself with a few years of more basic surfaces, such as sand and gravel bags. Pan Ching Fu has says that his iron-plate training is pretty effortless, and it probably is... for him! You've just got to be consistent. The hardest part is starting the training. Once your conditioning improves, it's gets easier to keep it up.

But I would not recommend it. :)

[TenTigers]

well, I for one wouldn't wanna make any witty comments at your disposal. So that being said, I will address one thing that I still have some trouble with.
I find it very hard to believe that since lead was harder to find than iron pellets, why it would be used at all-btw, hence the term "iron palm" and red sand-as in iron oxide.
Two, I also find it hard to believe that the old Masters would go out of their way to develop a jow specifically designed to counteract the effects of the lead...which is hard to find, and IMHO was NOT ever used. Sorry, like the leaks in your vynal, your argument does not hold water. I'm sure it is the way you were taught, but that does not mean it is the safest, or best method. There are iron palm formulas that use black vinegar, and rusty nails. I can tell you from experience, that these formulas are very dangerous, causing the bones to get brittle and incur fractures. Yet, it is a traditional formula. No offense to you or your teacher, but it does not seem very safe, on many levels.
Who, may I ask is your teacher that taught you this method? Where did he learn it? What is its origin? I was taught many methods, and the one most recently was shared with me from a man from Ku Yu Cheong's lineage. KYC is legendary for his iron palm. Pretty much all the pics you have seen were of him. That being said, I know at least that method is good and well documented.

[shirkers1]

I've already given the answers to the questions asked and I'm done repeating myself.

You have all the answers you need and in your own words are to set in your ways to change so why bother. ;) I'll take those flowers though if the offer is still open. They'll look good next to my shirtless greased down body in my mantis men calendar submission.

[TenTigers]

"my shirtless greased down body in my mantis men calendar submission."

Dear God, that is just so wrong.

[shirkers1]

think along the lines of this. :D


Sorry inside joke amongst the mantis guys. :D

[Vasquez]

Earth Dragon, can you remove the toxic effects by drinking some jow. Internal problem calls for internal solution????

[EarthDragon]

shirkers, i would never personal attack you... the only people on this board that i ever attacked personally were those A holes andy miles and travis whitman. and only becuse they talked crap about me fro 2 years while i was not on the board to defend myself. real nice huh?

vasquez. no you cannot drink Jow... it contains poisons, like lion coin and various other herbs..... toxic to the body if ingested.

[TenTigers]

some jows are toxic, other formulas are not, depending on the ingredients. Horse Coin, aconite compounds, and other toxic herbs are in some formulas. You should consult with your Sifu, or in the case of people who don't actually have a teacher,(like Vasquez) your herbalist. The internal jows are not meant to counteract anything other than internal bruising. or in cases of severe bruising, to help heal from the inside out.

[Vasquez]

If its toxic its just a matter of sweating it out.

[jetli68]

when i first started training years ago i used to use a phone book for palm strikes and and hand strikes worked for m8

[SimonM]

If its toxic its just a matter of sweating it out.


Tell you what Vasquez; you drink the Jow first and a week later if you still are breathing I still wont.

[Samurai Jack]

Another formula I like to use is Herb Pharm's Athlete's Power Compound (http://herb-pharm.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=23). I love the stuff, and have used it for years with good success. It may not be Chinese, but it does the trick.

[Vasquez]

I've sweated out more poison in my life then you have drank pi$$

[David Jamieson]

Most of us have likely never Drank pi$$.
Sweating out poison is usually something , someone who is a toxified junky does.

What are you telling us here? YOu're a meth head? crack? junk? which is it? :p

[Willow Palm]

Any iron palm method should be handed down from your sifu. Nothing else will subsitute like one on one instruction. Personally, I use a mung bean canvas bag with Shaolin Brand "Royal Phoenix" hot hand liniment. Sitting in a horse stance I perform the following, palm, reverse palm, willow palm (top/bottom), and finger tip strikes. The hand raises from the shoulder and drops, no additional force required.

By this regiment it is notable that I'm very new to iron palm training, but this was my sifu's instructions. I've noticed some people use a steel shot bag for tiger claw training. It involves a horse stance, tossing the bag from your center with one hand and tiger claw with the other, then switch. That's about all the information I have on the topic.

Warren

[Vasquez]

Pi$$ is an australian slang for beer. We call it pi$$ up when we talk about a drinking binge.

I wouldn't worry about toxicity, that is a western concept. Your sifu should e able to correct your internals if you go wrong. That's what sifus are for. He'll have the antidote if it comes to that.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Vasquez, I fear that you may actually be learning disabled. If so, please inform the rest of us so that we know what to expect from you.

If you are not learning disabled and are just acting like a retard, then tell us as well.

Maybe your Sifu can offer you some form of 'antidote' for whatever ails you mentally.

He should have plenty of time to help you, as you previously mentioned, you are the only student of his left.

[TenTigers]

God, I'm bored, I'm actually answering this babbling idiot,somebody quick, post something good.
Vasquez, If I read you right, you're saying that your Sifu should provide the antidote for whatever poisons he is giving you to ingest.

One, you are a total moron
Two-your Sifu is a total moron for one, teaching like that, two-for teaching you.
Your Sifu should have his Gung-Fu taken away. (they do this by severing the tendons in his arms and legs)
You however, should have your arms and legs completely amputated.
You would best serve humanity as a doorstop.
That being said, you are also the best troll on the internet, and should hook up with that Ultimate power Ninja guy.

[Dale Dugas]

And I got chewed out for feeding Vboy!!!

He is a clown who has no training as you can by the total fecal content of his posts.

Come on guys, ignore him.

Let him and his sifu of Wudang Lohan Chuan teach him how to drink pee and play the bamboo flute. V you have a NAMBLA card or what?

In Boston,

Dale

[Vasquez]

Maybe you're all retarts (geezzzz it's taxing on my buddhist detachment thing). My sifu is NOT poisoning me. I'm saying if you accidentally drink too much jow, your sifu should be able to help to out with some accupuncture, heat and meditation training and special herbs.

[Dale Dugas]

maybe you should take a remedial English course and learn to spell? lol

you are a total loser.

The more you speak the more you resemble your own anus.

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[SimonM]

Hey Vasquez I'll tell you what. When you visit Lishi, after I've taught you a bit about the difference between a martial artist and a troll, you can join my English writing class. My chinese students spelling is a bit better than yours but don't be discouraged, I'm sure with practice you can get caught up.

[Vasquez]

Dale Duglas,

Funny you should say that re. loser et al. Boston bulls never win the basket ball season lol from where u come from.

[Dale Dugas]

V,

You are either the biggest f'ing fool that has walked the planet. Or you are the every so clever troll persona of someone who is still an f'ing fool for wasting such time and effort to keep this persona spouting crap.

Either way you get my vote to out you and then have you come visit me here in the Northeast. It would be a great education for you and the other trolls who do nothing, contribute nothing, and are nothing.

Anta ga Unkokusai yaroo na....

Dale Dugas

[Vasquez]

What lesson can you teach me. you're not even chinese or have be binded into a chinese family thru kung fu association. I even taken on their religeon and fighting arts. Like a family is what sifu always says.

[Mr Punch]

Anta ga Unkokusai yaroo na...Thats a bit childish!

Try this

omaee ksohtare baka yaro! ksoh kue! ;)

[Dale Dugas]

better yet.

Vkun no chin chin ga zen zen nashi da ro na!

[Dale Dugas]

V,

You are so full of crap that your eyes are brown.

Have you noticed that people here think your the biggest putz?

You lie.

You dont train other than typical self abuse that seems to have rotted your common sense.

Your nothing.

Oh, and you definitely do not live in Australia.

Clown

[Vasquez]

You're a child too and ha I my wife has just arrived from China.

[PlumDragon]

Vasquez, please do not post here anymore. To say the least, your posts are irritating, instigative, pointless, irrelevant to the threads you post in, and generally degrade the quality of otherwise decent threads.

If you do continue to post on this forum, *please* start acting more sensible and down to Earth. Stop getting on everyones nerves. We are all here to learn from others and help others learn from us; you are impeding on those goals and Im sure I speak on behalf of the rest fo the forum when I request that you please stop.

[Dale Dugas]

PD,

F@*k Vasquez and the w h o r e who sired him.

Mother of god the poop that comes out of his mouth.

Lies about training with some last of the line in Wudang Lohan( a totally made up system, must be learning from the likes of Jim Lacy who created a system out of one form...) He has nothing and is nothing.

He has been asked by yours truly to step up and he repeatedly does not.

That shows him to be nothing but a tried and true YELLOW BELLY COWARD, POSER and over all LOSER.

V, buying your wife as you mentioned it in earlier posts is offensive to all women the world over.

Like I posted before. if you are real, then your the biggest F#*#*ing loser around. And if your the sick demented brain child of some member here you still the biggest F****ing chump for posting the total drek you have.

Your nothing but a waste, a liar and nothing at all like you present yourself to be.

What you say to that boy?

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[Vasquez]

Dale,

You're like a child who's lost his temper. Hardly MAer material I would add - losing his cool. If I were there right now, I'll give you a lollipop to suck on. Right now i'm exercising some buddhist disconection sh1t. so TTTH

I have good relationship with my wife. language is a problem but she's smart - studying hospitality.

[Dale Dugas]

Losing my cool?

You have no idea.

You are nothing but a slaver who has purchased a person. The idea that even did what you "claim" to have done is inexcusable.

Sorry you don't seem to like reality much.

Your a clown, and unlike others, I will keep chipping away at you as your nothing but the crap you spout.

Maybe you should reply with longer paragraphs that contain something resembling human thought.

Must be hard, being the total worm that you are.

W H O R E M O N G E R. Liar, and one downright disturbed person.

You know where you can take that, child.

Dale

[Vasquez]

Why don't u join the circus there are clowns there where you can try to set them straight. LOL at your slaver comment.

You call immigrants slaves - that is not a nice thing to say (even for a non buddhist or non chinese).

[Dale Dugas]

V,

Your past comments are as disgusting as your representing anything other than your true sub human self.

I will wear you down clown. What you think this angers me? I get more stress relief reading your poop filled postings than anything else.

As I said before. If your a real person and believe these things. You are so F***ked up you need some serious help, or you need to be taken out of society, as your one warped little worm.

If you the brain**** troll persona of someone else, that person deserves an ass kicking for posting all that you have.

You are a slave trader, w h o r e m o n g e r, and piece of filth.

What say you to that troll who has no balls??

Dale

[David Jamieson]

dale, you're letting this guy get the better of you.

just wanted to say.

remember, only a fool takes heed of the words of another fool. :p

[Dale Dugas]

David,

not a a problem. Just calling him out. Cowards and trolls have no place in the world though unfortunately they exist.

I really like messing with him.

Helps me relieve my stress reading the total S H I T he posts.

Not to worry my Great White North Brother!

Dale

[Vasquez]

I can understand why you're such a stressed out person Dale. True playing a flute under a willow tree to relief that stress.

[Dale Dugas]

Again with your closeted ****sexual references. Man you need to come out. Funny you had to buy a wife? Must be tough being a gay man who cannot accept what he truly is. I have many Asian friends who are gay and married women to create a home that is false to appease their parents and their guilt.

You must be under such pressure...

Why not come out and tell everyone you like men?

You dissillusionment about Chinese culture is so apparent you not even funny anymore. You just plain pathetic.

Dale

[Vasquez]

Dale, the references are all in your head, your concept that my wife is a slave is also something you imagined because your heart is dark.

It is hard for you to master true kung fu because your spirit is impure. Only with a oure spirit can you master great things.

You're not even close to being chinese and will not understand the nobleness of the culture.