Kicking methods of Wing Chun

[SPJ]

Here is a clip:

front kick (http://www.hkwingchun.com/video.htm)

Have fun.

:D

[fa_jing]

liked it

:)

[johnyk]

The instructor seemed to be in a good mood.

[Ray Pina]

His weight is going backwards .... even if that kick were to land, if the guy was coming in agressively, he'd put him right on his a$$.

I find this to be wing chun's greatest weakness -- they're always playing on their heals. There other kick, their stop kick, I also find kind of weak do to it's structure. It's not natural. You would never turn your leg like that to smash a pint of milk like you did when you were a kid. Or, you wouldn't jump off a 4-foot wall and land wioht your foot that way .... it just makes no sense. Even if the stop kick lands, if the guy just keeps putting force in his front it it up roots them.

So I guess you can say I don't like it.

[Vajramusti]

Now we have Ray orating on wing chun. Too Easy to "see" flaws in videos.
The person Don Mak is just demoing something--- dont know the context. His weight is not necessarily going backwards- may be may be not.
He knows that his weight is not supposed to go backwards.
joy chaudhuri

[fa_jing]

dude, turning the foot out gives you more surface area across meaning a better chance of landing that stop kick. And heavy squats are typically performed with your feet turned out. It requires flexibility though, flexibility that I personally no longer have since I stopped both MA training and stretching for the most part.

[Ray Pina]

Now we have Ray orating on wing chun. Too Easy to "see" flaws in videos.
The person Don Mak is just demoing something--- dont know the context. His weight is not necessarily going backwards- may be may be not.
He knows that his weight is not supposed to go backwards.
joy chaudhuri


Look, some one asked a question I'm just giving my opinion. Do I chime in on flan recipes? Do what you want. I studied Wing Chun for a few years, played with a ton of Wing Chun guys from Chinatown, noteably the folks at the Free Mason club, and that's my experience ..... also, my experience tells me his weight is going back in that particular video. I know I shouldn't bite my nails ..... I still do sometimes. It's just my opinion. You don't have to get nasty.

As for the WC stop kick, have a friend or classmate motion a front kick and place your stop kick somewhere between his shin and thigh... now you push down and have him push up. If you're relatively the same size you'll be uprooted and sent backwards. Again, this is just my experience. And I have used this stop kick with pretty good success, even fighting in San Da, until I've seen some of its weaknesses. I've also used Duct Tape to secure engine parts and what not.... when I got older I learned to fix the thing, replace it if necessary.

But boy is the blood getting bad around here. I'm just giving my opinion .... which was asked for. We were all asked. Why not tell me why it's good, instead of telling me why I have no business saying it's not. Share your practical experience with us. This creates dialogue, not tension which could cause people to hold their tongues.

[Ray Pina]

Now we have Ray orating on wing chun. Too Easy to "see" flaws in videos.
The person Don Mak is just demoing something--- dont know the context. His weight is not necessarily going backwards- may be may be not.
He knows that his weight is not supposed to go backwards.
joy chaudhuri

PS

HIS WEIGHT IS GOING BACKWARDS!!!!!

Look at were the sifu's head is in relation to the wooden dummy behind him before and during the kick. Before, his head blocks a portion of it. During the kick it is completely visible.

So maybe you need to remind him :p

[fa_jing]

"As for the WC stop kick, have a friend or classmate motion a front kick and place your stop kick somewhere between his shin and thigh... now you push down and have him push up. If you're relatively the same size you'll be uprooted and sent backwards."

Does this have something to do with turning the foot out, or what? Something weakened at the hip? Or is it a problem with any stop kick? Please elaborate.

As far as weight going backwards, lots of styles lean back when they kick, his structure looked good to me when I viewed the clip and it's not the end of the world in my experience to push yourself back due to landing a kick. In fact, it is worth it to land a kick and it looked like he was so close that was the only way to land it.

[Pork Chop]

putting your hips into a front kick can often look like you're weight's going backwards; but it's also a good way to put the hurt on yhour opponent while not leaving your head in range.

[DRleungjan]

Hey,

Nice clip SPJ.

Wing Chun has many weaknesses and strengths just like any other martial arts out there. It is up to the individual to 'observe', 'dissect', and 're-tool' those weaknesses in order to make the art work. And on strengths well...keep on working hard to refine them to new levels if possible. *shrugs*

Just a thought. :)

[Vajramusti]

Sure SPJ asked for opinions on the clip... and you are entitled to relating your perception and judgement. I dont have to quote from your posts. Where I find you showing your ignorance is your orating in wing chun in general.

My comments on the video? None. I dont know the context of that demo- what principle is being illustrated? Many possibilities. Also there are many kicks in wing chun besides what you call the other stop kick- regarding which you also proceed to orate.

[IronFist]

WC seems to work the best when you start out with your arm crossed with your opponent's.

[Mr Punch]

His weight is going backwards ...even if that kick were to land, if the guy was coming in agressively, he'd put him right on his a$$.You can't see that. It looks to me like at first his weight is slightly forwards, then he straightens up, but you can't see without seeing his legs. Besides, he is also stepping slightly backwards which may add to the illusion.

BTW, kyokushin kick at the same angle and they've got one of the strongest front kicks in the business, and I've never seen one going down from a front kick from someone coming in aggressively, without some kind of shoot involved.

Plus, it's extremely difficult to come in aggressively if somebody puts in a good front kick (stop kick or otherwise) to your solar plexus, stomach, chin etc. I've seen my shooto teacher who's no patsy, go down like a sack of potatoes while coming in aggressively and receiving a front kick to the chin. So it's a question of timing and since as always, this is just a demo, you can't say whether it would work or not.

[Mr Punch]

WC seems to work the best when you start out with your arm crossed with your opponent's.Completely baseless, quite funny and irrelevant! :p :D

[Yum Cha]

SPJ posted a clip, and asked for comment.

I tend to agree with Ray, it seems like the guy's weight is going backwards. I repeat, SEEMS, from what the wee bit of video portrays. Practicing, demonstrating, whatever.

Sure, lots of players put their weight back when they kick, those are the guys whose kicks you can walk through, and send them toppling backwards.

Unless, of course you stop in their sweet spot and let them kick the poop out of you....

Putting your hip into it and throwing your shoulders back isn't the best way to put power and position to your advantage, but its better. Keeping the upper body in an agressive forward posture keeps you ready to follow through. IMHO.

Mind you, I don't kick above the waist anymore.

Somebody posted a San Da ring fight with a "Teep" earlier on, that is my case in point. Same basic move, simply executed with intention.

[PangQuan]

I surely see him put his weight back, but at the same time, he has a hold of his opponents arms. This I think permits him to lean slightly back to keep his head out of range, make room for the kick, and add force by pulling back on the arms of the opponent whilst kicking out.

I in no way say any of this is fact, I could be totally wrong. Thats just the feeling i get from it.

But he surely leaned back.

And if he has to go to the ground for that, well at least he hopefully delivered a breath taking kick to his opponents mid section, which may give him the edge when they go down. Assuming he can handle himself on the ground.

[Yum Cha]

Yes, agreed, holding on and pulling someone into a kick is good technique.

Anybody practice the "no shadow" kick? Isn't that in this category?

SPJ, What is your take on the video?

[Ray Pina]

Hey,

Nice clip SPJ.

Wing Chun has many weaknesses and strengths just like any other martial arts out there. It is up to the individual to 'observe', 'dissect', and 're-tool' those weaknesses in order to make the art work. And on strengths well...keep on working hard to refine them to new levels if possible. *shrugs*

Just a thought. :)

Great post

[Ray Pina]

I'd just like to add that I am trying to find the ideal .... it is not ideal for your weight to be going backwards while standing on one leg. If you have real fight experience, you learn this right away.

Can you land a kick while your weight is going backwards? Of course. Can it cause damage? Of course. But this is not to say that I want to practice it.

I'd rather train the same kick with my weight going forward, driving, pushing off the back leg. In fact, this is exactly what Hsing-I and Ba Gua walking trains. That is why we spend so much time walking, to train the back leg, the hang time.

As for hanging onto the other guy while kicking. Relying on the other guy for balance is also quite dangerous. Also, pulling him into your backwards-leaning body while on one leg ..... I hope you're a good ground fighter.

[Face2Fist]

I'd just like to add that I am trying to find the ideal .... it is not ideal for your weight to be going backwards while standing on one leg. If you have real fight experience, you learn this right away.

Can you land a kick while your weight is going backwards? Of course. Can it cause damage? Of course. But this is not to say that I want to practice it.

I'd rather train the same kick with my weight going forward, driving, pushing off the back leg. In fact, this is exactly what Hsing-I and Ba Gua walking trains. That is why we spend so much time walking, to train the back leg, the hang time.

As for hanging onto the other guy while kicking. Relying on the other guy for balance is also quite dangerous. Also, pulling him into your backwards-leaning body while on one leg ..... I hope you're a good ground fighter.

what if you miss with the kick? you put all your weight forward and dont have time move quickly, as with snapping your kick and putting most of your weight on your back leg. you miss the kick you still have time to set up your next move. you drop that front against a wrestler or a shooter they are going to take you down quick. just my opinion then again to each is own isnt it.

[Ray Pina]

No, you are absolutely right!!!!!!!!

This is why we train hang time. Of everything I train, and I am 100-percent serious on this, this is what I spend most of my time doing out of class. I do it all the time.

Walking the circle or Hsing-I walking is all about driving off the back leg while hanging the front leg in a wedge-like shape .... how far can to drive off the back leg while keeping the heal on the ground? How long can you hang their with your weight slightly going forward?

It's not as easy as it sounds. You also don't want to land the front leg heavy ... it shouldn't make a sound.

Also, a nother big part of the training is that the second the front leg hits the ground you develop a pushing angle so that it actually becomes the new back leg.

But, most of all, the hang time allows you to turn what looks like a front kick delivery into a round house if the guy flanks one way or a side kick if he runs or flanks the other way.

I use the same stepping if I'm focusing on my hands or feet for attack. If you turn me, there is your back kick. I believe this is a true back kick, not turning your back to the guy two-paces before closing distance. If he turns you.

[TenTigers]

Good point, Ray. Sifu John Crescione, probably the best Wing Chun Sifu on Long Island related an incident he had awhile back. This is going back over twenty years, btw. He was a trainer at a gym in the city and Chuck Norris was filming there. They gotto talking and they played a bit. john told me that as soon as he pak sao'd his lead hand,Norris spun and nailed him with a (very controlled) spin back kick. John said he was incredibly fast and had great sensitivity. For a Wing Chun guy to say that about any Tang Soo Do guy-even Chuck Norris, you could tell he had nothing but respect for his technique. That is a properly executed back kick.
As far as the Wing Chun kicks are concerned, if you get a chance, stop in to Alan Lee's NYC Wing Chun school.

[fa_jing]

him moving back could be just so he has room to show the kick without nailing the guy

anyway I don't know how anyone's reaction could be anything but, "hey that guy looked like he had some interesting skills, and boy having a front kick that fast looks like something I would like, at least if I was going to be front kicking someone's midsection"

[Ray Pina]

The layman should be impressed by that video. A martial artists who takes his training even remotely seriously should be able to duplicate that video with no problem.

Also, I think people need to take more care before publishing photos in magazines and video to the web in general. We don't know any circumstances other than what the person releases and you have to assume they saw what they were releasing and deemed it quality.

This counts for the guy doing 10 moves to his student's one move in magazine photos .... the guy who ducks a stick or blade strike but is wide open for a dropped elbow, or someone leaning backwards while pulling someone into them while kicking.

These are the types of things I look for when critiquing form or two man drills. Fighting is a little different. There is pressure on both guys, so you will naturally get a quality reduction. If you can express yourself 85% that's great already.

But no pressure, with X amounts of takes, editing, it should be flawless.

[TenTigers]

Man, you guys are ridiculous.
The sweep-from what I could tell was very similar to Judo's de ashi harai-advancing foot sweep. As the person advances, and steps forward onto his front foot, but before there is full root, it is swept while pulling his arms forward and across.
The kick is being performed basically within the confines of chi-sao, and is a training technique, being performed cooperatively.
You guys are spending way way too much time trying to tear it apart trying to impress yourselves with your knowledge. It is what it is. Instead, why don't you notice his fluidity, position, and effortless movement. Will it look the same during a real attack? No Kung-Fu looks pretty when it's being done for real. Fights are ugly,sloppy messes. Unless you are simply lighting up someone who is weaker, drunk, or unskilled and helpless. Then it looks NEAT!