5 Animal form Revisted

[Judge Pen]

Please no bs about ego and whose master was better or of pure lineage in this post. I took some informative posts from my last thread and excised the remaining because I wanted to learn and document more of the connections and differences between the various versions of this form. Here goes:


I had a conversation about this Sunday and thought I would ask the group:

I understand that DFW learned his 5 animal form from Lau Bun who learned it from his teacher's wife who had a background in Northern Shaolin. Hence, DFW's 5 animal form is a southern-fried version of a Northern Shaolin form, right? If so, wouldn't there be a Northern version that is fairly similar to the CLF version? Anyone know who may be teaching a northern set that may be linked to DFW's version?


Judge,
From what I have been told about this set and it's northern style qualities, is first this is a Northern Shaolin set passed down from Dai Si Gung Lau Bun, it's internal methods such as breathing and how movement is coordinated with breath in a soft relaxed nature. This method was passed down from Mrs. Yuen Dai, the wife of Lau Bun's sifu, also unique is Lau Bun's Plum Blossom Spear which also is a northern shaolin spear which is believed to be passed down by her as well. When viewing this set one may only perceive this to be choy lee fut by the (hero single leg position movements), other than that it truly is unique of and by itself. May I also add this set is probably most identifiable by those of Lau Bun family of students. I wouldn't say it's a southern fried version of a northern style if all one may have witnessed is Buk Sil Lum as passed down from Ku Yu Cheung, there are many northern traditional styles that favors southern style in appearance for example the Northern Hung Style (Red Fist), one of the five major northern schools along with, fa, hua etc.


I watched several versions of this form this weekend and to my eye ( only a cursory introduction to CLF) there were hand techniques present in DFW's version that seemed southern to me.

Regardless, if Lau Bun's version came from his sifu's wife, whose background is Northern Shaolin, is there anyone outside of Lau Bun's lineage doing a 5 animal form that resembles the version being taught by DFW and Master Salvatera?



Aside from Sigung Jew Leong (and possibly not even him) has seen the original form Lau Bun learned from Yuen Hai's wife. Lau Bun has Choy Lee Fut-tized that set, much the same way the Chan Family did with Gung Gee Fook Fu.


The Um Ying has many different versions with different emphasis from person to person. unfortunately because of all of our Um Yings no one can claim to have "the original", but what i have done is collected all the versions and keep practicing them separately with different focus on specific things.

From what i've heard that is that Um Ying is an authentic shaolin form, although modified by now, at least its roots are true Shaolin.

However, i has seen the chan family's 18 lohan and there are a lot of similarities except for their Bow Sik breathing. still its a very good form for anyones arsenal.


judge, what hands did you feel were southern. just wanted to hear your point of view


hsk


How many different versions have you seen?

As for the hands, I'm not good with the terminology, but I saw some gwa sow combos in DFW's version that you normally don't see in many northern animal sets. (I belive the lyric would have been "snake jumps the twig"). Plus the stances were typically higher than Northern sets. Just my perspective. . . . I could be way off base here.


hey judge,

Well i know about three different versions of um ying. basically their the same but with different moves here and there. The same goes with Sup Gee, and the spear.

the reason why i keep these forms is because of historical value-our branch only.

Because Um is originally an internal form for us, i have used the other um ying i've learned as faster sets meant for competition.

still. as far back as my sifu can remember, unless it was being taught for a group performance, all the sets were taught differently to each individual.

hsk

[Judge Pen]

More pertinent points:




I know that DFW opens his version with a series of tam tui's and kicks that do not appear in other Lau Bun students' sets. I'm not aware of a third version from Lau Bun's linage.

Do you know of any other versions outside of Lau Bun's lineage?


Forgive me, but my terminology sucks fat hairy bolls..................................

Tam Tui, are you referring to the beginning of the set- the part where we stand on one leg and execute kicks, and the up and down part?

if that is the part you are referring to then, yes there are no other sets that have such moves in it. This Um Ying does not exist outside the lau bun branch because it has been said that Lau Bun was the only person Si- mo Yuen has ever taught.

now troy talked about the spear coming from si-mo yuen as well, i'm not too sure about that. but that raises another question.......well, i'll open it up as another thread.

still, um ying has become choy lee fut-ized. it is a standard within our school and there is no telling how old it really is, but Lau Bun's legacy here in america is over 80 years old, and it has been passed down for 8 decades. so it is a pretty old set.

hsk


Yes, that's the part. I've seen 5 animal form done both with and without this first part.

I guess I was curious if Si-mo Yuen learned the set and then taught it to Lau Bun, then could their be other people that have a similar set from whatever off-shoots of the school where Si-mo Yuen learned the form. I know of lots of 5 animal forms outside of HSCLF (I've even learned one or two) but they are markedly different than Salvatera's or DFW's version from the Lau Bun lineage.


judge,

the up and down part on one leg, in the DFW does he do it on both sides or just one leg? have you seen it done of both sides before? because that is how i originally learned it.

But DFW also does the reverse superman as we call it. the one where he reaches backward on one leg and kicks out with the leg not standing.


The DFW version that I have seen, he only does one, one-leg squat. He also does the reverse superman (as you say). He has released this version on DVD.


there is a version of hg 5a5e that looks clf-like. also there is hung fot (hung gar and fut gar) that has a 5 animals version and a 10 animals which may be based on the xy.

many of the advanced hung players i've seen utilize the principles of clf in thier practice without studying either of the sing styles.

there are two long versions of hung 5a5e that worth persueing IMO: the Old Folks version , and the Secret Door version.

the five brothers, three guys, red boat, four gates and (one other one) versions are all fairly uniform betwixt.

i'm not trying to start a fight:
dfw's forms all seem to be fairly standard forms from other systems that have had clf principles applied to them. this changes some of the visual characteristics of the forms but the general formats are still followed.


Historically, 'five animals' in regards to 'shaolin' styles is a Southern thing. You don't find it in classical Northern - at least that's what Ni Wei Chen told me, and he's a pretty good resource...

So claiming a 'five animals' Shaolin set as a Northern set, is probably an exageration...


That would make sense given the animals in the five animal form would typically be found in warmer climates (except for dragons; they're everywhere :p ). But you here references to northern 5 animal sets through Lau Bun's lineage and that was my oringal question: Any northern sets out there? If not, is this set claiming lineage to the Sourthern temple?


um, ok, so have we decided the origins of the Five Animal Form? Does Sifu Salvatera do this same set? From what I see, it is very CLFized. The moves are very similar to Hung-Ga, but in our Five Animal set, each animal is assigned to its own section. In Gung Ji Fook Fu Juen, the five animals are all throughout the set, as in this five animal set.
What other schools are from Lau Bun's lineage? Do the do this set as well?
If so, do they do it differently? How and why? Looking at the pics of the elephant form, either it is a very peculiar set, or it might have deviated from the source. I have seen Doc fai-Wong's CLF, and Sifu Huang's movements do not resemble DFW's at all. Then again, Gwok-Si, Gwok-Faht.Each Sifu has his own methods.
i also do not see Doc Fai-Wong as doing anything harmful by selling videos of the sets. People may try to learn them, may try to pass themselves off as CLF instructors, but I think these are few and far between. What i do think this accomplishes is that one gets their appetite whetted, and seeks to learn more and learn it correctly, and improve the level of their Kung-Fu. They will now either contact Sifu Doc Fai-Wong or learn through distance learning, or whatever, but the end result will be that they will have their forms corrected, learn one on one from Sifu Wong, and their organization will grow and flourish. This has a ripple effect and all of CLF,all of Kung-Fu will flourish as well. The rising tide lifts all boats.


sup there sup fu (10 tigers),

yes there is a few different version of this form, each individual got it a little differently. there is a Um Ying bat gwa kuen which contains some bagua moves, and the general um ying with variations in it. some use more crane, while others use more tiger claw, and what not.

If the set has nothern roots to it, it definitely got washed away by the Choy Lee Fut, but the um ying that DFW has is strictly lau bun lineage and anyone outside of lau buns lineage would have a completely different 5 animals.

frank

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

i have seen that form but i am not positive as to it's origins. i saw an old vhs of a woman doing the form with the peculiar crane dipping movements. i think dad knows. let's test his alzheimers...

he thinks its northern, as you surmised, but does not remember if it was the reason for the secret door's trial of old folks or not: if it has some mantis in it then it was the northern form influenced by mei hua which led to the trial by secret door.

[Judge Pen]

And More good stuff:


sup there sup fu (10 tigers),

yes there is a few different version of this form, each individual got it a little differently. there is a Um Ying bat gwa kuen which contains some bagua moves, and the general um ying with variations in it. some use more crane, while others use more tiger claw, and what not.

If the set has nothern roots to it, it definitely got washed away by the Choy Lee Fut, but the um ying that DFW has is strictly lau bun lineage and anyone outside of lau buns lineage would have a completely different 5 animals.

frank


Honestly, guys, we need to focus upon the topic, wasn’t it about ngh yihng kyuhn (five shape fist).

Interesting, like someone comment, northern styles aren’t known for using a grouping of animals per say, but individual animals, i.e., eagle, mantis, etc.

Is it possible that actual form isn’t Northern per say in the first place?


I have had an opportunity to train the Chan Family Gung Ji and can say that it bears no similarities to the Hung Ga set other than its name and some dynamic tension movements - my brother does Tang Fung so I've had a chance to see that set and compare.



I've also trained the 18 Lohan. I can't say that the version of Ng Ying that I've seen Wong Doc-Fai perform has anything in common with Sup Baat Lohan Sau aside from it being done in a slow fashion. The purpose of Sup Baat Lohan is to stretch the body and open the joints. It is a primary level set in the qigong system. Although it is martial qigong, it doesn't necessarily have martial applications as does Ng Ying. In the Chan Family system, the martial application found in the qigong system would present itself in the Tai Gik and Wu Chi sets.

Todd



I am interested in this Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen. As a Hung-Ga player and also as someone who has "tasted" CLF both through H'o Ngau's lineage and Buk Sing-I am intrigued.
What is the history of this set in CLF? Which families do this form? Is there any footage on this? How does it differ from Hung-Ga's GGFFK? There are also many different versions of Hung=Ga and different versions of Tang-Fong's line as well.
I have seen alot of variation from school to school-Gwok-Si, Gwok-Faht. So to mention that simply a finger could only be referring to one Sifu's way and not everyopne's.



there are seven sub-schools of hung gar. four of them share the same 'plain old jane' version of 5a5e which comes from five brothers/three guys. old folks shares with one other, maybe red boat. secret door has thier own version which is 1/3 longer than old folk's.

five animals also occurs in shaolin and kun lun. one sect also uses it.

i guess in historical order it was shaolin 5a, then hung gar 5a, then hung gar 5a5e.

the kl 5a is similar to shaolin but stylistically different. while you're there have a peak at 4 animals form and the eight methods forms from kun lun. they're both 5a/5a5e type forms with some good breeding stock.

the sectarian 5a is the standard 3 guys version.


Ok. If you know, are any of these similar to the 5a as taught in the Lau Bun lineage of CLF?


What I’m gathering from some of the threads, that wuxingquan (five shape boxing) as taught by Wong Shifu, may have it roots in a neijia (internal family).

It seems like an off-shot of wuqinshi (five animal play), then what we will assume to be Shaolin tradition, which we have seen via southern style like hongquan (great boxing), who’s interpretation consist mostly of waijia (external family) components, but retaining some neijia notions via the long (dragon). Am I clear with this now?


sorry, judge, i'm not a dfw student.

lau bun hung sing clf might be more similar to the red boat school. the red boat school, or pirates of the south school, is based on clf mixed with hung- contemporaneous tiger. red boat is a half-kin to hung gar but still considered part of the family: 5 brothers, 3 guys, old folks, secret door, red sash, red boat, four gates.

red boat shares a lot of northern and southern mixed hung techniques.

durring the trial of old folks and 5brothers by secret door an old folks student went to the south looking for help. he found the red boat family and shared his five animals five elements. the resulting modern red boat has older shaolin and old folks 5a5e with a combination of buk sing and hung sing: or rather, the modern red boat form is based on 5a5e old folks long form with a shaolin "hammering" aftertaste through the singing flavours. tiger techniques replace crane for similar movements, as the pirates of the south preferred the tiger to the crane: tiger good for fighting, crane good for eating. tiger can be eaten, too. but only if hunted by hand.

does this sound like dfw's 5a?


Interesting, I wasn’t aware that shixingquan (ten shape boxing) of hongquan, was actually influenced by cailifoquan? I honestly, thought that Lin, Shirong, synthesizes this particular lu (way) at the end of the Qing Dynasty…

[Judge Pen]

But wait, there's more:


mulong: are you responding to judge pen's question or one on a previous page?

hung v. hong.

oh, you mean my comment on "hammering"? four gates was extant in the south a long time before old folks journeyed to find friends. four gates family is similar to early hong family.

[Mulong]

Help me out here is this version of wuxingquan (five shape boxing) is a neijia (internal family) concept or a waijia (external)?

For example, the hongquan version it is combination of the both nei and wai; however, it leans more to the wai side.

Therefore, we can say this version of wuxingquan is a neilu (internal way)?

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

5a/5a5e is both, especially in the Hung Gar traditions. some hung gar is more external, some more internal. which Hong family version are you referring to? tong bei family has a version, too, but i don't know that it's any different from the basic shaolin model with through the back power issueance demonstrated. -?-

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

judge,

i remember a comment from Kwong Hsi-Hsing, Sifu: dfw's/lau bun is the form that caused the trial. so it's origin is northern and is influenced by meihua tanglang.

as an afterthought: this trial reduced both old folks and secret door to living in hiding. ironically, both families peacefully coexist in the same metroplex with exactly the same number of schools. and they're beginning to teach each other... :cool:

[Mulong]

I'm personally familiar with the Lin (Lahm) Fang (Fong) shi/sik (style) of hongquan (huhng kyuhn); however, both style, stress the longxing/luhng yihng (dragon shape), which is perceived as internal (nei). However, the nei isn’t a water (shui/seui) based like Yang shi taijiquan, but fire (huo/fo), which can be refer to as hard achievement (yinggong/ngaahng gung), i.e., isometrics.

Therefore, what quality of nei are you referring to?

[Mulong]

Pardon me YuanZhideDiZhen, you stating statements in parable form; hence, can you be more directly with your responses, because you have something to convey, which we all can benefit from.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

from what you are describing the edjucation i had is kind of backwards.

for example, the principle elemental philosophy of our yang tcc is the cooling wave-like flame on an old log, the last log in the fire. it smoulders and sparks a flame. the flame dies and issues smoke and heat. the smoke ignites and the flame plays. so the form itself is neither hard or soft but rather hard-soft.

as to five animals and five elements and iron thread: dad practices iron thread like i do ytcc. his 5a5e is decidedly hard and soft, switching between hard movements and soft movements. but not soft hard movements and not hard soft movements. the wave form in his tournament practice is decidedly hard. but when he practices for fun and development its hard-soft like the flame.

the iron thread is isometric to most players. dad does it this way some but also does it like a gong fu for harnesing lui gong essence. most players of the iron thread don't understand it as a gong fu.

[hskwarrior]

:confused: :confused: what are you talking about?

CLosed door trial? this had to do with Lau Bun, and his Um Ying Kuen?

What secret closed door trial, who was involved, and how can you verify this had taken place?

what city took place and what kind of a trial.


this if funny, i want to hear this, as well as a few of my elders.


frank

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I have personally seen the DFW Ng Ying Kuyhn, performed by Jason Wong, when my Sifu and I visited their school in 1990. We were in town for TMW's tourny and DFW drove us to a few places in his minivan. We went to his school and his son Jason performed for us.

What you have to realize is; forms get intergrated and absorbed by other styles. The style takes the main techniques, sequences, and adds their Kuyhn Jung (Fist Seeds). This is how the style grew to so many forms in just a few generations.

The form is definatly not a 'northern form', who knows where it originated from, but I have yet to really see a legit 5 animal form from a northern shaolin style anyway. I don't think that anyone is going to make a definative decision about this form.

Either way, it's a good form, I'm sure a lot of people like it. Our 5 animal form is completely different, doesn't even resembe it; as I'm sure other CLF schools have different versions too.

I would imagine that there might be some Hung Kuyhn (Not necessarily modern Hung Ga) influence, as there are many 5 animal techniqes in village Hung styles. My Sifu also taught Hung Kuyhn, and many techniques/sequences were similiar.

[hskwarrior]

Lama,

when you visited DFW's school, did jaon perform the set slowly or did he perform it kinda fast?

It doesn't make any difference since i have taken that form and do it full speed. I just wanted to know?

and the Tam Tui, did he do both legs, or just standing on one?


peace

frank

[hskwarrior]

There are a lot of good fighting techniques in the Um Ying. For us, it is practiced as an internal form so it is naturally practiced tai chi speed.

But i agree, most schools and different teachers all have different sets with the same name.

If I can ask, would that matter that Um Ying is taught differenty between schools?

the chan, hung sing branches definetely have different forms, including the lee koon hung branches which didn't look like that of the Chan nor Hung Sing branches.

as long as the right elements are in there, that shouldn't matter, i hope.

frank

[Mulong]

I like the poetic notion… Indeed, Yang shi taijiquan is about cooling the fire, i.e., not exerting the muscles.

If I may ask, what lineage does your Father belongs to? Like I stated, I’m familiar with two branch of hongquan, i.e., Fang & Lin. Hence, they indeed, employ sort of a soft-hard theory, i.e., tensing the muscles.

You must take into account within hongquan, the longshi (dragon style); enable the practitioner to develop tiebushan (iron shirt).

However, the longshi can be done in a soft (yin) sort of away, if the practitioner desires that.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Jason performed the set at a fast pace, I guess. Much faster than his dad does on video, but not as fast other CLF schools. I don't remember how many legs...lol..it's been 15 years! lol

Frank, I agree. As long as it's got, So, Gwa, Chaap, Deng, Teui, Pek, Biin, Jung, etc., it's CLF. Everyone's sets are different, no big whooop.

[hskwarrior]

The thing about Lau Bun was that he never taught each one of his students the same way. He wouldn't pass on a double dagger set to someone 300 lbs, but he would teach that person the Kwan Do. In saying, even in Um Ying there are different versions.

one version has only one tam tui, while another has two tam tui's. the other has the what we call the reverse superman for lack of a chinese term as found in DFW's book.

personally i love seeing all the different versions and have been trying to preserve them and eventually pass them on to my students.

in your Um Ying Lama, is it always taught the same to everyone?

DFW was pretty good with the Um Ying, i won't deny that, and maybe between his group of classmates he was the best at it, but my sifu and his sifu Jew Leong are incredible to watch as well. I will be putting smalls clips of them on the intro to my dvd.


frank

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

:confused: :confused: what are you talking about?

CLosed door trial? this had to do with Lau Bun, and his Um Ying Kuen?

What secret closed door trial, who was involved, and how can you verify this had taken place?

what city took place and what kind of a trial.


this if funny, i want to hear this, as well as a few of my elders.


frank

chris, as always you're a day late, a buck short and sticking your d!ck where you know it doesn't belong. quit trolling.

[hskwarrior]

chris :confused:

is that my real name?

why wasn't i told?

hmmm, i'll have to research this.

brb

frank

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

If I may ask, what lineage does your Father belongs to?

You must take into account within hongquan, the longshi (dragon style); enable the practitioner to develop tiebushan (iron shirt).

However, the longshi can be done in a soft (yin) sort of away, if the practitioner desires that.

i must apologise. you think i am speaking of Hong family shaolin style as my lineage? this is not so. In the states we differentiate HONG family Shaolin from HUNG GAR, even though Hung Gar is considered "Shaolin" and some chinese consider it part of HONG.

normally i do not address issues of whom my family is unless it has to do with major conflict resolution. for web forums it is considered bad ettiquite.

[hskwarrior]

:confused:

[hskwarrior]

has anyone heard of the CLF master named Yip Man?

as far as i know yip man was Wing Chun. However, the guy with the longass name claims that there was a famous fight known from here to china that involved a clf master named Yip man.

anyone know what he is talking about? is he doing shrooms again?


frank

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

I I’m familiar with two branch of hongquan, i.e., Fang & Lin. Hence, they indeed, employ sort of a soft-hard theory, i.e., tensing the muscles.

You must take into account within hongquan, the longshi (dragon style); enable the practitioner to develop tiebushan (iron shirt).

However, the longshi can be done in a soft (yin) sort of away, if the practitioner desires that.

this is interesting. so this method allows for blood control to harden your muscles? sounds kind of yinfu in principle, to me.

so then is your longshi a qi gong? every time i think long i think twisting and claws...perhaps my yester-years... :cool:

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

has anyone heard of the CLF master named Yip Man?

as far as i know yip man was Wing Chun. However, the guy with the longass name claims that there was a famous fight known from here to china that involved a clf master named Yip man.

anyone know what he is talking about? is he doing shrooms again?


frank

wing chun is what he became known for after the big fight. he was the last grand master. master of three styles and five principle styles (like small styles without as many forms). wing chun was one of those principles. adam hsu was one of his main students and is also in the sfba area. so go ask him.

is sean stoneheart, aka clf_sean, your trolling alter ego? he's the only slug that pushes this form of ignorance.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Frank,

Yes, the NG YING is taught the same to everyone in my school. Being that it is an intermediate/advanced form, I have only taught it to a dozen or so students. There is a new group in my school that is learning it now. Ours has 148 moves, give or take a few, and each animal is like an individual set within the form, Lung, Seh, Fu, Bao, Hok, in that order.

And what is the 'reverse superman move' you mention?

[hskwarrior]

yeah thats me. :confused:

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

chris :confused:

is that my real name?

why wasn't i told?

hmmm, i'll have to research this.

brb

frank

oops, sorry. gross affliction of association with another troll... or two. :p

[hskwarrior]

Lama,

in our um ying as we stand on one leg-the right leg- guard hands push out to the right while the left leg kicks out to the left, come back and while on the same standing leg reach forward, push out with both palms while kicking behind (similar to the tiger tail kick). The highlighted area is what "we refer to as the superman, and the reverse superman is to reach backwards and level your body while still standing on the right leg, and now the left leg is kicking out in front. you whole upper torso should be parallel to the floor, chest side facing the sky.

hope i was clear enough. let me know

frank

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

oh, those are "lazy cat stretches" techniques.

[hskwarrior]

sure they are :)

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

i know they're difficult. but that's what we call them. i even put them in my yang practice. :cool:

[hskwarrior]

of cours you do. :)

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Frank, Oh, now I know what move you mean. We call them 'scales', I don't recall the chinese name for it.

That move does not exist in our 5 animal form. But I have seen othe CLF people do it as well, I believe DFW.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

next time i go out west to see my elder sister i plan to show her. i'm sure it'll be nothing at all to hike up to sfba and show you and dfw together. since you're the inheritor of the hung sing style i can also see your elephant then, too. you know, being shown the fists and knowing the culture are two different things entirely. knowing the fists only makes you part of the family. you're still responsible for what you claimed publicly. mind if i drag my sister along? she's famous... and cute! :cool:

[hskwarrior]

Michael, if that's better instead of lama,

yeah, that is one of those moves that was changed because it was too hard, similar i guess to what you said your sifu was doing. but i agree with those that say forget how hard it is, and practice to perfect it. if it is easy to master then it isn't worth it.

since you don't see our um ying as northern, then would you still call the one legged techniques Tam Tui or is that a northern concept?

frank

[hskwarrior]

ok thanks :)

[hskwarrior]

bring her along, we'll show you a good time.

about the form, sure, i will show you. but only if you can tell me each shape of the four elephant fists first.

[hskwarrior]

aren't you in the west being that you're in seatle wash.?

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

fair enough on the fists and the form. no, i'm not a west coaster. i'm in albany. i was in seattle visiting a Buddist friend when i changed my city sticker.

[hskwarrior]

no, you misunderstand.

i am asking you to tell me them now, or pm them to me.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

i will not add to your knowledge until i am in your presance.

[hskwarrior]

oh, i see. :)

[Mulong]

I gather this thread got hijacked… :(

[Mulong]

Therefore, can we consider wuxingquan as nei (internal) or was a wai (external)? :confused:

[sean_stonehart]

wing chun is what he became known for after the big fight. he was the last grand master. master of three styles and five principle styles (like small styles without as many forms). wing chun was one of those principles. adam hsu was one of his main students and is also in the sfba area. so go ask him.

is sean stoneheart, aka clf_sean, your trolling alter ego? he's the only slug that pushes this form of ignorance.

Slug huh? Let me know if you're ever in Atlanta. We can see if salt burns or not.

Tell you what you rimjobbing monkey-nut muncher... you brought my name up when I had nothing to do with this. Would you like me to show the PM's from the Dragon's List where you told me not to believe the things said about you there (Hom Sop Lao)?? Would you like me to show the folks here how you went about harassing two girls from Wah Lum with PM's about how Chan Pui was out to get you & how'd he'd been handled by so & so...

Frank's not me & I'm not him & we're both happy about it. Don't draw conclusions your antipsychotic addled brain can't handle.

Forget my name... you'll be happier. Don't mention me again... things will be better.

[hskwarrior]

oooooh your'e gonna get it. :eek:

[hskwarrior]

hey sean

fock him, and show the posts to let these people know he's a nut.

harrassing girls? (pervert?--yeah he's hom sup!)

watch him disappear now. :p

[hskwarrior]

sean........
here's a message...........

"keep up the good work!"

SiGung

[hskwarrior]

And the winner is.............

Sean "clf-sean" Stoneheart. King of the one hitter quitters.

His new name should be "The Crusha!" Remember that old bugs bunny cartoon?

sean, that msg wasn't from me, so call him or something?

frank

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

Would you like me to show the folks here how you went about harassing two girls from Wah Lum with PM's about how Chan Pui was out to get you & how'd he'd been handled by so & so...

Frank's not me & I'm not him & we're both happy about it. Don't draw conclusions your antipsychotic addled brain can't handle.


interesting. you still deny the great grandmaster of clf and wc? i've never said chan was out to get me: that is something you interpolated, incorrectly, just as you did at karate forums. where btw, three other persons of note corrected you and supported Zhong in his analysis of your description of buk sing and wing chun being virtually identical. yet you practice one or the other and cannot describe the differences?

the two girls, from what i've been told, were behaving in much the same manner as yourself: denying thier teacher's teacher his rightful place in thier lineage. in fact they were released from work for stalking someone. how's your rectum? can you feel my salt, still?

[hskwarrior]

what?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! :eek:

now, this guy either completely knows what he's doing, or he is completely off his rocker. hahahahahahahahahaha


frank

[CLFNole]

Buk sing choy lay fut and wing chun identical? :eek: :eek: :eek:

Is the earth still flat? Do square pegs fit in round holes?

We'll I guess so according to some.

[hskwarrior]

ahhhh man, where'd he go?

did you chase him off guacamole nole?


shhhhhhhhh, maybe if we stay quiet he may just go away.


:eek: Shhhhhhhhhh i said.


:confused:

[Ou Ji]

Wow, I didn't know they gave nuthouse patients internet access.

Say hello to nurse rachet for me. Thanks.

[hskwarrior]

wow, i need some xanax now.

i knew this guy had some screws loose.

hsk......what a trip.

[Mulong]

Bellevue is awaiting…

[T. Cunningham]

Slug huh? Let me know if you're ever in Atlanta. We can see if salt burns or not.

Tell you what you rimjobbing monkey-nut muncher... you brought my name up when I had nothing to do with this.

Forget my name... you'll be happier. Don't mention me again... things will be better.

That made me laugh out loud! Can I borrow that? I've heard some pretty good insults over the years, but that ranks among the very best.

[sean_stonehart]

That made me laugh out loud! Can I borrow that? I've heard some pretty good insults over the years, but that ranks among the very best.

Please feel free, but make sure you spell my name right on the royalty checks! :D :D

[Fu-Pow]

where btw, three other persons of note corrected you and supported Zhong in his analysis of your description of buk sing and wing chun being virtually identical.

Whoever this Zhong is....is a moron and the fact that you believe him shows that you are ignorant of both CLF and Wing Chun. Buk sing CLF and Wing Chun are about two of the most diametrically opposed styles that one could think of....ON ALL LEVELS!!!

[hskwarrior]

The guy even believed that Yip Man was a great choy Lee Fut master. :eek:

[T. Cunningham]

Please feel free, but make sure you spell my name right on the royalty checks! :D :D

Thank you! I definitely will!

[Mulong]

Hey, what happened to five shape, i.e., animals, did they run off to Madagascar?

[Infrazael]

When did Sean ever say anyting bad to the guy with the long-ass name?

Far as my conversations with Sean he's a really chill dude.

Peace, take it easy guys. If you REALLY don't want to, just do what my Sifu told me, meet up and fight it out. :D

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

Hey, what happened to five shape, i.e., animals, did they run off to Madagascar?

some to madagascar, some to australia. where else do queer things exist? Jamieson's couch?

nope. both the hunted and the hunters moved to the same city in the united states. :rolleyes:

both old folks and secret door can be found in new england. as i understand thier relationship they are getting along peacefully. i heard some rumor that the techniques they used to stomp old folks also came from mei hua... :eek:

all rivalries from last century seem to have started through bad communication and the perceived need to hide certain techniques from public view. three for three, IMO.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

When did Sean ever say anyting bad to the guy with the long-ass name?

Far as my conversations with Sean he's a really chill dude.

Peace, take it easy guys. If you REALLY don't want to, just do what my Sifu told me, meet up and fight it out. :D

i quoted somebody he greatly dislikes. and i happen to agree with the person whom he greatly dislikes. on the forum where the offense occurred a number of other people also questioned his comprehension of the question: which was "that description sounds like it could be for either buk sing or wing chun. if you've studied both why can't you describe the difference between the two, especially since you insist they are different?"

there were a number of comments from other responders speculating that the particular style of buk sing he studied was fairly well married to wing chun. the guy he hates asked another question: "well then, his style is more like wah lum than anything else: buk sing, wing chun, and tang lang." it was then that the two girls began harassing the man for not knowing about wah lum, claiming it was never a clf style and that Yip Man was never a clf sifu. despite Yip's reputation of being a master (that's 27 forms plus alternates and weapons) in three styles and sifu of five short styles (also called 'principles' because they had less than 10 distict forms of thier own stylistic development). the wah lum girls did not know the names of the styles their grandmaster's father mastered nor the pertinent history for the development of the technique which defined wah lum before comming to the states: specifically it was a cotton finger technique. one of the girls informed the hated student of thier rival that wah lum was no longer taught as the combined knowledge of 8 systems based heavily in liehe tang lang, chat tsing tang lang, buk sing and wing whun. currently, for the last 15 years or so thier focus has been chat tsing tang lang and shuai-chiao: the two main systems of Yip Man before mastering clf.

the reason this history is important is that people from all over china went to his camp in tai shan to study and add to thier arts. to deny the breadth of his skill is to slap a lot of people in the face. especially the family of the only person to ever be formally invited to join Yip Man's school. and it wasn't Chan Pui.

[Ou Ji]

YuanZhideDiZhen

Tell us about the big fight. I want to hear about the big fight. You seem to be the only one that knows about the big fight.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

Whoever this Zhong is....is a moron and the fact that you believe him shows that you are ignorant of both CLF and Wing Chun. Buk sing CLF and Wing Chun are about two of the most diametrically opposed styles that one could think of....ON ALL LEVELS!!!


the sean persona's description of the styles was virtually identical on that forum. i agreed with Zhong's question/statement that p1ssed sean off so badly: that sean did not know his styles well enough to describe the differences between them, only the similarities such that they sounded the same. the four of you are pretty freaking gullible for believing him without checking into it yourselves. it was on karate forums at iffroggy.com.

no wonder he's no longer associated with dino salvaterre.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

YuanZhideDiZhen

Tell us about the big fight. I want to hear about the big fight. You seem to be the only one that knows about the big fight.

ask adam hsu, or dfw. they're somewhat impartial and probably know a fair bit that i don't.

for chinese (note: mainland chinese, not chinese-americans) 30 years older than most web-heads it's fairly common knowledge.

it may also be that i'm one of very few (7 at last count on this forum) that have had any contact with old tcma people.

MuLong claims Lam Jo is his Sigung. ask him to ask his sifu.

[Ou Ji]

Don't know why you can't just give us a rundown. I don't know Adam Hsu or Doc Fai Wong so I'm not so sure they would want to be gossiping with someone they don't know. Besides, I don't have a phone number or email for either one of them.

Not only that but there doesn't seem to be anyone that agrees with your comments so you appear to be the only one that knows about this big fight.

Can you give me a place and/or date so I can track this down?

I've heard you mention this big fight a couple of times yet nobody else has stepped up claiming knowledge of it OR a CLF Master named Yip Man. But you claim this CLF Yip Man is the same one of Wing Chun fame? And that he beat up Chan Pui of Wah Lum and another Master? And that it's common knowledge on the mainland?

Come on man, spill the beans. It sounds like the kind of story we all want to hear.

Or can one of our brothers on the mainland clue us in on this big fight?

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

Don't know why you can't just give us a rundown. I don't know Adam Hsu or Doc Fai Wong so I'm not so sure they would want to be gossiping with someone they don't know. Besides, I don't have a phone number or email for either one of them. the web is a big place. try not to get lost.

Can you give me a place and/or date so I can track this down? no.

But you claim this CLF Yip Man is the same one of Wing Chun fame? yes

And that he beat up Chan Pui of Wah Lum and another Master? no. the exact opposite.

And that it's common knowledge on the mainland? yes

Or can one of our brothers on the mainland clue us in on this big fight? lam jo.

all my answers in bold.

[Fu-Pow]

But you claim this CLF Yip Man is the same one of Wing Chun fame? yes

So let me get this straight. You are proposing that Yip Man new Choy Lay Fut?

[Ou Ji]

Ok, I did a search and waded through some of YuanZhideDiZhen's posts and there's about a zero chance that anything he says is the truth.

At first I found evidence that he might be confusing Chan Pui with someone else.

"The International Sport Kickboxing Association was founded in 1999-2000 (that's when i was asked to join) or thereabouts after Chan Pui down-moded his tournament to an in house kumite type tournament. ( it should be noted the chan has reupped his tournament to a public access international tournament since '02) a number of CLF sifus got together to cosponsor it. most of whom were chan's students but they asked me as well."

Chan Pui holds only in-house (Wah Lum students only) with the exception of Tournament 2000 which was open to the general public.

But then it went downhill fast.

"as part of the training i was required to increase my heat resistance by submerging my fore arms in 240 degree brine for ten to fifteen minutes. after i could do that without sweating until the fifteenth minute we moved over to the deep frier.

Tai Yim once asked me,"Why do all the southern guys have restaurants? do they just like to eat a lot?"
my reply: "it affords us unique opportunities for training."

"i was unable to do my arms in the deep fryer, just my hands and only at 315 degrees fharenheit for about 45 seconds. the skin on my wrists was too thin to allow submersion: it cooked to quikly. it wa smore a matter of qi training and coincided with winter training of cold showers outside in the chilly dark night."

The dude's a major flake with delusions of granduer.

[hskwarrior]

wait, a minute, the guy with the long ass name is right.

i thought many of you knew of the great CLF master Yip Man :mad:

Don't you realize he's the master of the short handed choy lee fut system called Wing Chun? :confused:

man, do i have to teach you guys everything? :eek:

you tell em' guy with the long ass name.

oh and my sifu's last name is salvatera and not salvaterre, thnks :)

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

Chan Pui holds only in-house (Wah Lum students only) with the exception of Tournament 2000 which was open to the general public.


he sponsored two parts of what used to be called the tripple crown of kungfu wushu. and both were open to the public. this ended in '98. and was restarted in 2000. and has been closed door since.

the difference between the possible and the practiced is a great devide of fear and doubt.

[hskwarrior]

has anyone seen the movie "conspiracy theory"?

the guy with the long ass name kinda reminds me of mel gibsons character.

our guy seems intelligent, but just way out there. i mean way out there, and i am starting to wonder if he actually knows what he's doing, or this mother focker is really off his rocker.

he's talking about nsa, and how sean was implicated in something.

here's a message: my old lady doesn't look like yoda, but she can quantum leap from time to time.


shhhhh, :cool: the gov' might be monitoring our movement.......be verwee verwee qwuiet...huhhuhuhuhuhuhuh! :o

hsk

[brothernumber9]

I wonder what the triple crown of tourneys would be? I guess back when, it may have been NACMAF, the U.S. Open in Florida, and Tat Mau Wong's 4 star tourney, but the 4 star was bi-annual. In '98 I remember the 1st Eagle Cup tourney, TaiJi Legacy, WKF, and the tourney in Seattle, but it seemed none of the tournaments were on a huge scale at that time.

[Ou Ji]

First off I think YuanZhideDiZhen is a total flake and I no longer take anything he says seriously. I'll change my tune when someone verifies anything he said.

My sources show Chan Pui close to John Leung's tourney, Lily Lau's tourney and Nick Scrima's tourney.

Can anyone verify if these are closed door since 2000?

Does anyone have any proof that anything he says is true?

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

his tourney is closed door. thier tournies are open. do you know him? perhaps you can visit him and ask to see the video of the guy the state police of florida showed to him?

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

I wonder what the triple crown of tourneys would be? I guess back when, it may have been NACMAF, the U.S. Open in Florida, and Tat Mau Wong's 4 star tourney, but the 4 star was bi-annual. In '98 I remember the 1st Eagle Cup tourney, TaiJi Legacy, WKF, and the tourney in Seattle, but it seemed none of the tournaments were on a huge scale at that time.

the triple crown was two tournaments in central florida and the washington open.

you may be correct. i've never heard of the tournaments you mentioned, though, either. except the US open. i think that was one of the two in central florida. the other florida one had 'international' in its title.

[Ou Ji]

"ask to see the video of the guy the state police of florida showed to him"

Why do you keep sending me around the country to bother Masters about stuff they might not care to discuss with strangers?

So what does the above comment have to do with anything we're talking about? Why don't you just come out and tell these stories?

Because they're BS and you're just talking out your a$$.

And for someone with supposedly insside info on a lot of stuff you don't know much about the tournament scene. Nick Scrima's is the one with "International" in the name.

I don't compete but I know of most of the tourneys listed even though I've never been there.
.

[CLFNole]

I live in Florida and my family is quite close with Chan Pui. Since 1993 there have been very few major tournaments in Florida. My sifu held two, one in 1994 and the other in 1996. Uncle Pui had his in 2000. Nick Scrima's tournament has only become popular in the past few years.

Wah lum has had internal school tournaments, but thats about it for Florida.

[Mulong]

NACMAF last event was 1993 (MD); the first WKF event was in 1994 (FL) However, the first major event in FL was in 1992 CMC, i.e., Jeff Bolt, who actually produce the 1994 event in Orlando; possibly the biggest event ever held in FL was the 1997 event in Orlando, which was produce by Jeff Bolt and Johnny Lee.

[CLFNole]

I was at the 1997 event and it wasn't that big. The one's in 1994 and 1996 had more competitors and people from other places.

[Mulong]

Pardon me, which event in 1996? Jeff Bolt produce his first event under Chinese Council in 1992, then 1994, and his last one was 1997. At this moment, I don't recall Jeff producing an event that year.

1997 was large, by numbers, but the area was extremely large; hence, it wasn't noticeable. Also, the biggest or most important event for Chinese martial arts for one simple reason it was a pay-per-view event, i.e., master demo & sanshou.

[CLFNole]

My sifu, Lee Koon Hung put on the World Kung Fu Championships in 1994 and 1996.

[Mulong]

Indeed, but you also had the events held in Orlando...

[CLFNole]

I know all I was saying is the 1997 Orlando event was smaller. Chan Pui's Tournament 2000 was quite large. I was judging for hours at that one. Man I couldn't believe how large even the senior divisions were.

[Mulong]

Maybe you was judging longer, because they weren't enough judges, which is the norm.

P.S. If you judge in 1997 at Orlando; hence, we met.

[CLFNole]

Mulong:

In 1997 I was still competing.

[Mulong]

If I may ask, how was the experience?

[CLFNole]

It was my 1st tourney competing in advanced so I was kind of nervous. I was 28 at the time and did pretty good. I didn't expect much and think I got 3rd and 4th but it showed me what to expect. I continued competing until 2001 and did good after the 1997 tournament.

I judged at Tournament 2000 instead of competing becuase I just came back from my honeymoon and didn't really have the time (or the legs ;) ) to train.

Do you by chance practice Jow Gar?

[Mulong]

CLFNole,

I have played with Jau ga kyuhn (zhoujiaquan), but my core style is huhng ga kyuhn (hongjiaquan), beside three other major southern style, and let's not count my northern side. ;)

[Judge Pen]

Just found this "explanation" on the web:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Animals

Interesting perspectives on the link of Northern shaolin to the southern five animal forms.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

well, you've managed to out webcrawl us again, master of the spider form! :D

i find it interesting: elsewhere today i found a post about wudang modern school which answered several of my questions.

combined with your post today i see some whole new avenues that i had not previously considered. despite what i practice, the styles i find most interesting to watch are all western styles: Hong, Xi, and Kunlun.

Mulong has stated that sigung (Lam Jo) said we are part of Hong (Family) Quan. I'm sure wikipedia did not mean to step on the toes of such a master by any account of raising the question of how Hung became associated with a western family style? (wikipedia answered that i believe, but i guess what i want to know is if they asked him?!)