Mantis in Sport Fighting

[TaichiMantis]

[I also posted this on the Mantis Qtly Form...]

Someone should come up with a class on this. Lately I've been watching a lot of UFC reruns on Spike TV. I always wonder what moves, footwork, etc. from mantis could be incorporated in sport fighting, either sanshou or mma. The gloves worn in mma fighting may be more conducive to mantis, I'm not sure what they use in sanshou.

Do any of you watch UFC or other sport fighting and try to analyze technique? It seems that the punches are more muscle and arm generated instead of from the waist or core. Also, the kicks never come back faster than they go out, making it easy to steal someones balance. What about bouncing vs gliding, angle, or circular stepping vs. straight in? Of course you would have to scrutinize the rules to see what is allowed.

Also, while I'm on a rant, what about mantis techniques for point sparring. Even though I have won trophies in it, I really hate karate point sparring; but that is all we have around here. It's like there are two paradigms. One for when you go to tournaments to spar and one when you are actually learning your style. It blows my mind that I am reduced to about three basic techniques when I spar. Why can't we spar using techniques and concepts we supposedly learn through forms? Granted, there is some overlap but....

And finally, would I use any of my Mantis/Shaolin concepts in a street fight? Or does self defense boil down to a few generic concepts and the style doesn't really matter.

It does seem that I receive conflicting messages in my training....anyone else feel this way

[Oso]

Someone should come up with a class on this. Lately I've been watching a lot of UFC reruns on Spike TV. I always wonder what moves, footwork, etc. from mantis could be incorporated in sport fighting, either sanshou or mma. The gloves worn in mma fighting may be more conducive to mantis, I'm not sure what they use in sanshou.

Sanshou uses a boxing glove...12-16 oz.

I think a big misconception about mantis is that it's all 'mantis hooking'
this is not true, imo, and there are plenty of pressing/sealing techniques that could be effective w/o the use of the fingers.


Do any of you watch UFC or other sport fighting and try to analyze technique? It seems that the punches are more muscle and arm generated instead of from the waist or core. Also, the kicks never come back faster than they go out, making it easy to steal someones balance. What about bouncing vs gliding, angle, or circular stepping vs. straight in? Of course you would have to scrutinize the rules to see what is allowed.

beyond attacks to the eyes, throat and groin there is nothing in any mma ruleset that would disallow any 'mantis' technique.

i don't know that I'd say that it would be so easy to steal someones balance just because they follow through with the kick. generally they are immediately following through with arm attacks and you are not only having to deal with the considerable power these guys are generating (power is power no matter if it's muscularly generated or 'waist generated'...and I'm not sure that is a real distinction anyway.) you also have to worry about the head shots coming at you as you try to steal their balance.

Also, while I'm on a rant, what about mantis techniques for point sparring. Even though I have won trophies in it, I really hate karate point sparring; but that is all we have around here. It's like there are two paradigms. One for when you go to tournaments to spar and one when you are actually learning your style. It blows my mind that I am reduced to about three basic techniques when I spar. Why can't we spar using techniques and concepts we supposedly learn through forms? Granted, there is some overlap but....

anything you do should be usable in any venue...you have to understand and train the rules so that you can be effective within them. If you have won trophies then you were effective...why worry?

And finally, would I use any of my Mantis/Shaolin concepts in a street fight? Or does self defense boil down to a few generic concepts and the style doesn't really matter.

'fighting' boils down to some basic concepts that should be found in any style.

It does seem that I receive conflicting messages in my training....anyone else feel this way

if there is a conflicting message, it's not in the material but how it's being presented.

just my thoughts on the issue...which shouldn't be an issue to start with.

[MightyB]

I take it that you're a student of Master Lee. I personally think he's awesome. I've seen him do some demonstrations with gim technique that are top notch.

One of your Master's friends is Master Chan who teaches Jow Ga and Wing Chun. He had a student named Duncan Duffin who may be in Grand Rapids. He did move to train with Cung Le's team in LA for a while, but he may be back now. He's very good in TCMA... but, he made the transition to do San Shou almost exclusively now. He is a black belt in Judo, has experience in Muay Thai, and BJJ. He has a good and established fight record. He isn't Mantis, but he knows Bung Bo and is a top-notch Jow Ga guy.

Talk to him about some of your issues.

[TaichiMantis]

I take it that you're a student of Master Lee. I personally think he's awesome. I've seen him do some demonstrations with gim technique that are top notch.

One of your Master's friends is Master Chan who teaches Jow Ga and Wing Chun. He had a student named Duncan Duffin who may be in Grand Rapids. He did move to train with Cung Le's team in LA for a while, but he may be back now. He's very good in TCMA... but, he made the transition to do San Shou almost exclusively now. He is a black belt in Judo, has experience in Muay Thai, and BJJ. He has a good and established fight record. He isn't Mantis, but he knows Bung Bo and is a top-notch Jow Ga guy.

Talk to him about some of your issues.

Thanks....it would be interesting to talk to someone who started in TCMA to see if that training has helped them in sport fighting.

Actually, I'm a student of a sifu who was authorized to teach Tai Chi Praying Mantis under the late grandmaster David Cheng of Hawaii. Grandmaster Cheng was a school brother to Grandmaster Lee; both of them were disciples of Chui Chuk Kai who taught TCPM in Vietnam. Our class meets at the Michigan Athletic Club at Burton and Breton on Tues-Thurs. I have met Master Chan, a very gracious man. I introduced myself when I bought my staff from his shop. Master Chan told me about Henry Chung's tournament in Midland. I attended the tournament last year with my sifu and was introduced to Grandmaster Lee and some of his students. I've also seen his demonstrations at Festival. You are right, he truly knows his stuff!

[shirkers1]

[I also posted this on the Mantis Qtly Form...]

Someone should come up with a class on this. Lately I've been watching a lot of UFC reruns on Spike TV. I always wonder what moves, footwork, etc. from mantis could be incorporated in sport fighting, either sanshou or mma. The gloves worn in mma fighting may be more conducive to mantis, I'm not sure what they use in sanshou.

Do any of you watch UFC or other sport fighting and try to analyze technique? It seems that the punches are more muscle and arm generated instead of from the waist or core. Also, the kicks never come back faster than they go out, making it easy to steal someones balance. What about bouncing vs gliding, angle, or circular stepping vs. straight in? Of course you would have to scrutinize the rules to see what is allowed.

Also, while I'm on a rant, what about mantis techniques for point sparring. Even though I have won trophies in it, I really hate karate point sparring; but that is all we have around here. It's like there are two paradigms. One for when you go to tournaments to spar and one when you are actually learning your style. It blows my mind that I am reduced to about three basic techniques when I spar. Why can't we spar using techniques and concepts we supposedly learn through forms? Granted, there is some overlap but....

And finally, would I use any of my Mantis/Shaolin concepts in a street fight? Or does self defense boil down to a few generic concepts and the style doesn't really matter.

It does seem that I receive conflicting messages in my training....anyone else feel this way

Well it's not a matter of coming up with a class for it. Pretty much everything in our line of mantis can be used. Accept for headbutts, small things like holding on to shorts, eye gouges or groin strikes of coarse aren't allowed. But basic striking and throwing is allowed so it would be a matter of training for sport fighting period using mantis tactics and mindset. I think it would go over very well.

As for kicking etc. There is a lot of things I wish some of those guys would do more and do less. As for angles etc It depends on who you're fighting whether you want to stand in front of them or move. You see all the openings and where they could do this or that and you're like "ah let it fly" but it's easier when looking from the outside in. :) I'd like to see more bump kicks and foot stomps. Way more elbows in close instead of forearm strikes. I realize that these guys aren't in it for the long haul so certain strikes like destructions aren't used as much. Although I think elbows on hook lines to the main arm muscles and leg muscles will end things a lot quicker than some might realize. I'd like to see throws like we do where you just let go of the guy in mid throw causing more damage than holding on to the guy while going down just so you can ground and pound. The only thing with this is a lot of those guys will clinche right away forcing both of you to go down any way. So it's a matter of being able to execute the throw properly and cleanly I guess.

These guys are cross training using what they know works, tai boxing, boxing, jujitsu etc. Until someone comes along and shows a superior striking, throwing, and grappling then that's what they're going to stick with.

Yes mantis is very useful in the street and yes I have used it. Whether they were generic concepts or not isn't the point. If it's something you're training and you use it then that's all that really matters whether it's the bare basic or most advanced. It really depends on who you're training with and how as to whether you're going to be able to use it when it matters.

[Oso]

right.

if you want to fight with mantis you have to fight with it.

forms, drills, etc. are just the beginning.


one thing that I do in a tie up that confounded my training partners in jujitsu is something that i feel I got from mantis: utilizing my elbows against the chest to control their balance better while have have a double neck hook.

[mantid1]

Just watched one of those fights last night. I think that if a traditional mantis guy went in there they would have their head handed to them.

Two or three techniques then down on the ground. Most of these guys could take a couple of shots untill they got a hold of the mantis guy.

But this is against people who train to fight. It is a different story defending yourself against the guy on the street who has not trained or has littlle "real" training. Mantis is very effective for that. No doubt about it.

I have said before the only way to know is get a mantis guy in there to find out. If somone would compete in these types of tournaments and get the head handed to them using mantis, that should tell you something.

Out of all of these types of fights has anyone ever heard of a traditioanal mantis guy being a big winner in any of these organiztions. Using Mantis techniques not bjj.

I can tell you one thing. It wont be me in there :)

[EarthDragon]

taichimantis,
actully my friend and kung fu brother Joel Sutton whom I used to train with in Buffalo and in SF entered the UFC #6 representing 8 step praying mantis and yes taught by James Shyun as an alternative and won.

He was then invited back into UFC#7 in Buffalo NY as a main event and also won........ it was deemed the bloodiest UFC match in history after joel head butted the guy, split his forhead open and stuck his thumbs in the skin and ripped it open. you can still rent the Buffalo fight at blockbuster. and read about it on our news clippings button on our website www.eightstep.com

He was the first mantis style practioner to enter the old UFC and proved himself and our style worthy of MMA.

[shirkers1]

Just watched one of those fights last night. I think that if a traditional mantis guy went in there they would have their head handed to them.

Two or three techniques then down on the ground. Most of these guys could take a couple of shots untill they got a hold of the mantis guy.

But this is against people who train to fight. It is a different story defending yourself against the guy on the street who has not trained or has littlle "real" training. Mantis is very effective for that. No doubt about it.

I have said before the only way to know is get a mantis guy in there to find out. If somone would compete in these types of tournaments and get the head handed to them using mantis, that should tell you something.

Out of all of these types of fights has anyone ever heard of a traditioanal mantis guy being a big winner in any of these organiztions. Using Mantis techniques not bjj.

I can tell you one thing. It wont be me in there :)

Well look at the tools used. Punching, kicking, throwing, grappling. Mantis excels in everything but modern ground fighting. So why couldn't a mantis guy cross train for that aspect and do well? It just simply has to be done and trained. I made my attempt at getting back into fighting shape and ended up hurting my back again.. I just can't do the road work any more with my back to keep up the stamina needed for that. In the long haul my back can't keep up any more when I push it too hard, I was hoping to get back into fighting shape and enter the cage at some local events here, but it's just not going to happen. I'd love to get a hold of some kid who had the drive to do this and was willing to fight and train him, I know I could make a great competitor out of him in the cage.

[MightyB]

Before you guys go a little too crazy and attempt MMA... try a San Shou event first. Do a google search and watch the fight between Duncan Duffin and Albert Pope. It's all over on-line and you can download it for free if you register @ www.subfighter.com.

Mantis is good... there's no doubt about that... but, it's up to the individual to train the way they want to fight. Is Mantis all inclusive to where it'd do well in MMA? I don't know because honestly I haven't trained in it long enough or hard enough to find out. I do know that I've become a much better all around fighter since I started training Judo and MMA for the last couple of years. I did fight in a San Shou tournament a couple of years ago and got my arse handed to me because I didn't train correctly. I was too traditional for the fight. Now I know that I'll do fine in a San Shou match because experience has taught me what works and doesn't work and I've changed how I train.

[Oso]

Just watched one of those fights last night. I think that if a traditional mantis guy went in there they would have their head handed to them.

lol, probably.

Two or three techniques then down on the ground. Most of these guys could take a couple of shots untill they got a hold of the mantis guy.

because most mantis guys aren't really fighting. just to be clear, I definitely don't consider myself to be in fighting shape now.


But this is against people who train to fight. It is a different story defending yourself against the guy on the street who has not trained or has littlle "real" training. Mantis is very effective for that. No doubt about it.

Possibly. There still has to be some reality to the training process. Cooperative drilling only serves to get a basic understanding of a technique. Then you must try to do it against an uncooperative opponent.

I have said before the only way to know is get a mantis guy in there to find out. If somone would compete in these types of tournaments and get the head handed to them using mantis, that should tell you something.

Out of all of these types of fights has anyone ever heard of a traditioanal mantis guy being a big winner in any of these organiztions. Using Mantis techniques not bjj.

I can tell you one thing. It wont be me in there :)

but, the problem is getting hung up on 'traditional mantis'. imo, 'traditional mantis' will get eaten alive. but, it is my belief that mantis has the tools but the training paradigm needs to change and some things will have to be set aside as 'low %' for ring use.

[Oso]

Well look at the tools used. Punching, kicking, throwing, grappling. Mantis excels in everything but modern ground fighting. So why couldn't a mantis guy cross train for that aspect and do well? It just simply has to be done and trained. I made my attempt at getting back into fighting shape and ended up hurting my back again.. I just can't do the road work any more with my back to keep up the stamina needed for that. In the long haul my back can't keep up any more when I push it too hard, I was hoping to get back into fighting shape and enter the cage at some local events here, but it's just not going to happen. I'd love to get a hold of some kid who had the drive to do this and was willing to fight and train him, I know I could make a great competitor out of him in the cage.

agreed. but, sadly there are too many people who think that cross training in jujitsu, judo or bjj is like selling your soul to the devil. Almost all CMA is deficient in ground grappling. People are just having a hard time admitting it.

I have one who wants it. we're going to do some more local stuff, including a full contact lei tai next may and then go to the US Kuoshuo in Baltimore next year. then we're going to step over to san shou and then see where we are then.

[Oso]

Before you guys go a little too crazy and attempt MMA... try a San Shou event first. Do a google search and watch the fight between Duncan Duffin and Albert Pope. It's all over on-line and you can download it for free if you register @ www.subfighter.com.

Mantis is good... there's no doubt about that... but, it's up to the individual to train the way they want to fight. Is Mantis all inclusive to where it'd do well in MMA? I don't know because honestly I haven't trained in it long enough or hard enough to find out. I do know that I've become a much better all around fighter since I started training Judo and MMA for the last couple of years. I did fight in a San Shou tournament a couple of years ago and got my arse handed to me because I didn't train correctly. I was too traditional for the fight. Now I know that I'll do fine in a San Shou match because experience has taught me what works and doesn't work and I've changed how I train.

in your experience, do you feel that you could use mantis and do well (with the exception of ground work) if you utilized training concepts you've learned in judo and mma?

[shirkers1]

agreed. but, sadly there are too many people who think that cross training in jujitsu, judo or bjj is like selling your soul to the devil. Almost all CMA is deficient in ground grappling. People are just having a hard time admitting it.

I have one who wants it. we're going to do some more local stuff, including a full contact lei tai next may and then go to the US Kuoshuo in Baltimore next year. then we're going to step over to san shou and then see where we are then.


Good luck with that, I'm sure you'll do well.. :)

[TaichiMantis]

but, the problem is getting hung up on 'traditional mantis'. imo, 'traditional mantis' will get eaten alive. but, it is my belief that mantis has the tools but the training paradigm needs to change and some things will have to be set aside as 'low %' for ring use.

This is the kind of discussion I was hoping to spur. You have to look at the principles behind the moves and stances in the forms and then see how you can adjust them for the ring or for real life attacks in today's world (which is dominated by weapons other than hands and feet).

Of course the concept of "winning" in sport fighting is....well....just different.

[mantid1]

Hi Shirkers

I dont think that ground fighting is that new of a concept. In fact if we do some research it probably predates mantis.

I think a mantis guy could do well in that type of fighting. I do think he would have to alter the way it is done traditionally. Which is one thing that I believe the mantis has going for it. From what I have been taught the mantis does not have to be done in the exact same way each time you use a technique. So it is a perfect style to adapt. I think that is more important in the real situation then sitting around talking about jing and where the power comes from. If you are learning a fighting style you should be able to strike with some power and effectivness.

The founder of mantis (wong lang :rolleyes: ) who ever that may be, obsorbed and adapted techniques form other styles to make his/their system work. It is still happening today. This is another reason I think a mantis practitioner could do well.


Mighty B

Yep, san shou is the only fighting we do in our school besides the normal two person sets and drills.

But dont get me wrong. I am not saying my school is known for great fighters or that I am an authority on this type of fighting. I just think it is better and have less injuries to students than with the light contact.

We do some of what people call cotuinuous light contact sparring. But I call it by what it really is. Tag. I let them tag to shoulders, chest center line, and legs. It helps with blocking as some coordination and timing. The guys who used to hurt people in the light contact wont do the san shou. Imagine that.


Oso

Just read your post, seems we think the same way

[Oso]

This is the kind of discussion I was hoping to spur. You have to look at the principles behind the moves and stances in the forms and then see how you can adjust them for the ring or for real life attacks in today's world (which is dominated by weapons other than hands and feet).

agreed.

Of course the concept of "winning" in sport fighting is....well....just different.

why do you think that?

there are certainly differences between light contact 'tag' sparring and full contact but the name of the game is control is it not?

I think it's totally beneficial to apply your mind to figuring out how to use what you know in a limited fashion. maybe you can't do some of what you feel is stylistically inherent in you but I just consider it an exercise in application.

[shirkers1]

Hi Shirkers

I dont think that ground fighting is that new of a concept. In fact if we do some research it probably predates mantis.

I think a mantis guy could do well in that type of fighting. I do think he would have to alter the way it is done traditionally. Which is one thing that I believe the mantis has going for it. From what I have been taught the mantis does not have to be done in the exact same way each time you use a technique. So it is a perfect style to adapt. I think that is more important in the real situation then sitting around talking about jing and where the power comes from. If you are learning a fighting style you should be able to strike with some power and effectivness.



I never said it was a new concept. I said "modern ground fighter", these guys train in BJJ etc so you'd have to know how to counter their moves. So at least a limited knowledge of what they have to offer is essential when you're thrown in there with guys who want to go there. Take a guy like chuck, he'd rather stand up then grapple with you, because that is his strength. But if need be he can ground and pound and sprawl to counter going down. He knows he's not a great submission guy so he'd rather stand up. I myself have never been that much of a slouch on the ground using mantis tactics. I've never wrestled in school etc but I can use common sense as to body positioning etc to handle myself just fine. The past few years I started working and looking into BJJ and how they do things and it's helped even more. I still concider myself a stand up fighter though...

The way you've been taught is the same way I've been taught, traditional in forms but a lot more modern when applied.

As for your "sitting around talking about jing" comment I don't know if that was a dig or what but the question was where does the power come from while throwing a strike etc. So that is why I answered the way I did on that subject. I think if you look it clearly says by me that if you "train" the mechanics correctly and not meditate on the earths gravitational pull you'll be fine.

[mantid1]

nope not a dig at all

I just think people try to get to involved with the "where the power comes form". An experienced shotokan guy will probably hit with a straight punch just as hard as a mantis guy. Power generation is fairly simple.

Comment had absolutely nothing to do with you at all.

[shirkers1]

nope not a dig at all

I just think people try to get to involved with the "where the power comes form". An experienced shotokan guy will probably hit with a straight punch just as hard as a mantis guy. Power generation is fairly simple.

Comment had absolutely nothing to do with you at all.

:) okay, just checking cause it sounded like we were on the same page thought wise up till that point.

[mantis108]

Well, I posted a response on the MQ forum already. I am not going to bring that over here. Rather, I prefer to give another response here. BTW, I just got my first BJJ Gi which is a very nice fit. The reason? No, I am not selling out but I am looking into the handles and chokes that a Gi (simulates someone with a Jacket on the street) can provide.

The major problem for mantis in an UFC type event is 2 folds A) as Oso and others have put it the conditioning. B) Ignorance of the fighting format (ie clinch and the ground).

BTW, I encourage everyone who's into real recordings of actually street fights in America to get their hands on Bumfights or Scraps on DVD. You will realize that a fight is a fight whether or not it's on the street. It's not something that's exclusive to MAist in the ring or in the octagon.

Mantis has Di Gong or ground fighting in it. However, few people focus on that. So forms such as the Di Tanglang is mostly for show if not for "gymnastic" conditioning. Take the most basic sprawl (pa hu) for example, how many people in Mantis understand the principle of it let along drill that? Bridging (upa in BJJ term) in Mantis is basically "Di Feng Jian" (earth wind expanding) but how many people even heard of that?

Finally, the obsession of form base teaching has a strangling hold on Mantis at large. The only remedy IMHO is to either do away with proliferation of forms or balance it out with drill base teaching. Ideally, drill base teaching would be the solution.

Mantis108

[Oso]

Take the most basic sprawl (pa hu) for example, how many people in Mantis understand the principle of it let along drill that? Bridging (upa in BJJ term) in Mantis is basically "Di Feng Jian" (earth wind expanding) but how many people even heard of that?

c'mon dude...don't tease like that.

would love to see you expand upon those terms...maybe an article??????

[EarthDragon]

Is it just me or is mantis 108 an encyclopedic wealth of mantis knowledge... LOL

again just want to point out my last post to comment on mantis not being put to the test in the UFC.... please re-read or you have seen UFC 6 or 7, place your comment here__________

[mantis108]

I have been working on an article about Mantis ground fighting. It's coming along slowly. So I don't know when it will be finished. But then you have given me an idea what to included in it. Thanks :)

Hi Earth Dragon,

Thanks for the support. I know very little about mantis. I am fortunate enough to have knowledgeable people such as Kevin and others sharing invaluable information with me. In reality, I am more of a large mouth spreading the word that's all. I wouldn't be qualify for being the encyclopedia thing. ;)

Warm regards

Mantis108

[MightyB]

Oso,

In my experience, 7* works fine if you train hard...

I've been practicing the first Jet Yu and Su Fon Che forms a lot lately because I really like those two forms for fight training.

I didn't do to well in the beginning when I first joined the Judo club... but, after I got the basics of Judo down, I was able to start incorporating what I learned in Mantis with Judo. Now I'm a dirty hybrid, but I feel a lot better about things like San Shao. Some examples... I don't like to tangle up on the ground with the straight BJJ guys from Ann Arbor, but they are weak with the basic throwing from Judo so the purer Judo guys actually end up beating the BJJers a lot. I played hands with a Krav guy who was smooth. I've since developed an appreciation for Krav. The x-military combatives guy does hybrid BJJ.

We all share. I've shown some basic Mantis and Chin Na. Mantis is waaaayyyyy better than Judo's Goshin Jitsu. Goshin is similar to Chin Na but IMHO sucks especially if you compare it to 7*.

One thing people need to keep in mind is that I dedicated myself exclusively to 7* for 10 years before I started cross training. I'm not an advocate for "Flavor of the Week" types who randomly switch styles every 6 months because they think they're "correcting some flaw". You have to give yourself time to develop in any style.

I also don't like the trend to try to de-emphasize forms training. Yes you shouldn't obsess with forms... but, if you read my post on the 8 Hard, you'll begin to understand why forms are important to develop as a Mantis player. IMO people who de-emphasize forms really are making excuses for their own lack of knowledge of the system. For example, there was a prominent instructor who tried to remove the Fan Che forms from the "Mantis curriculem" because he didn't think they were mantis. What he didn't realize is that there's a whole series of theories that have been passed down through the generations that describe how to incorporate Fan Che and Mantis for free fighting. I'm writing from memory and I don't speak Cantonese-- "Fan Che Mut, Tong Long Gun" -- spelled phonetically, would be one.

I've never seen Mantis ground fighting. I've never seen anything that's even remotely similar to BJJ or wrestling in the dirt in Mantis. I'd also be curious to see this Mantis ground fighting everyone talks about.

[EarthDragon]

mantis 108, you are too humble... I wish I had one ounce of your humbleness.
I am however driven by ego a character flaw. But I am in commision sales career so I need my ego to survive so it goes both ways.. LOL

[Knifefighter]

Earth Dragon:
Are you saying the techniques Sutton used in his UFC fights were representative of the techniques that mantis fighter would use in a fight?

[EarthDragon]

knife........ I would have to say NO not totally that is. While Joel trained in 8 step for years with dean in Buffalo and then james shyun in SF.
Shyun had him cross train with other martial artists like Cung Lee and tat ma wong and some BJJ and akijitsu players.
One of his daily training excersizes was to push a 55 galon drum filled with water up a hill which he got from a judo BB.

While he did represent 8 step praying mantis in he octagon that arena is more or less on the ground fighitng not the stand up and fight that mantis fighters are more comfortable with. While it is true they stood up and punched and kicked like a mantis fighter does when it got to be too much for his opponent he just tackled him and then the fight was won on the ground.

in a real situation agaisnt a trained fighter we would all like to use our mantis in its flavor 100% of the fight but most of the time this is not always true and you rely on instinct rather than training.

[Willow Palm]

Even on UFC, you have to understand that when there are rules, you have to train to fit them. Unfortunately, these guys are on the "juice" and learning a few basic techniques and trying to perfect them. While that's all good and all, some of the best fights I've seen were in the early years and they didn't last nearly as long. Before the mixed martial arts got big, most of the competitors were strickly using the style they've done for years. I've seen fights where the little guy whooped the big guy because the little guy had better technique, and I'm talking a two hundred pound difference BTW. The great thing (great?) about a street fight is all those techniques that mantis is known work beautifully. That's enough for me. Competition is one thing and can be a terrific benefit to your martial skills, but UFC is about money and ego, which is complete opposite to what I'm after. Though I must admit it's good to hear other mantis practioners are whipping up on some people in the ring.

[Jason Martell]

In ultimate fighting they are not allowed to strike in the back or the back of the head.

Are they allowed to hit the neck in any way?

[EarthDragon]

Jason, Much has changed in he UFC as far as rules go. Back in the day when the UFC first started out their were only 2 rules....
1. no eye gouging
2. no fish hooking.

it wasnt until much later that they implemeted all these new rules with classes and such. so again when it was just starting out you could do just about anything........

[TaichiMantis]

Jason, Much has changed in he UFC as far as rules go. Back in the day when the UFC first started out their were only 2 rules....
2. no fish hooking...

So does that mean no cutting punches or kicks?

[Oso]

hey man, just getting back to the board after a much needed vacation.



Oso,

In my experience, 7* works fine if you train hard...

I've been practicing the first Jet Yu and Su Fon Che forms a lot lately because I really like those two forms for fight training.

you'll have to translate for me...is 'su fon che' 'small turning wheel' ? and i don't know what 'jet yu' is at all.

I didn't do to well in the beginning when I first joined the Judo club... but, after I got the basics of Judo down, I was able to start incorporating what I learned in Mantis with Judo. Now I'm a dirty hybrid, but I feel a lot better about things like San Shao. Some examples... I don't like to tangle up on the ground with the straight BJJ guys from Ann Arbor, but they are weak with the basic throwing from Judo so the purer Judo guys actually end up beating the BJJers a lot. I played hands with a Krav guy who was smooth. I've since developed an appreciation for Krav. The x-military combatives guy does hybrid BJJ.

good. i'd say that no one would be able to start mixing and matching till after they gained some understanding of what the new thing is all about. also, imo, the longer your total training the less time it takes to assimilate a new method.

We all share. I've shown some basic Mantis and Chin Na. Mantis is waaaayyyyy better than Judo's Goshin Jitsu. Goshin is similar to Chin Na but IMHO sucks especially if you compare it to 7*.

yea, in my jujitsu experiences i've found cma chin na to be better at small and medium joing locking as well.

One thing people need to keep in mind is that I dedicated myself exclusively to 7* for 10 years before I started cross training. I'm not an advocate for "Flavor of the Week" types who randomly switch styles every 6 months because they think they're "correcting some flaw". You have to give yourself time to develop in any style.

right, what I said above.

I also don't like the trend to try to de-emphasize forms training. Yes you shouldn't obsess with forms... but, if you read my post on the 8 Hard, you'll begin to understand why forms are important to develop as a Mantis player. IMO people who de-emphasize forms really are making excuses for their own lack of knowledge of the system. For example, there was a prominent instructor who tried to remove the Fan Che forms from the "Mantis curriculem" because he didn't think they were mantis. What he didn't realize is that there's a whole series of theories that have been passed down through the generations that describe how to incorporate Fan Che and Mantis for free fighting. I'm writing from memory and I don't speak Cantonese-- "Fan Che Mut, Tong Long Gun" -- spelled phonetically, would be one.

i agree. for me the forms are the 'books' with the lessons in them. you have to take the lessons out of the book and do the math problems on the board, as it were, a bunch of times to be able to recall and utilize it.

I've never seen Mantis ground fighting. I've never seen anything that's even remotely similar to BJJ or wrestling in the dirt in Mantis. I'd also be curious to see this Mantis ground fighting everyone talks about.

neither have I.


btw, my girl is from michigan and we'll be in ann arbor the entire week of Thanksgiving....where are you in relation and would you be interested in getting together...or I can brush off my uchi mata and come to a judo club meeting....pm me if you want

[MightyB]

Oso,

I live about 30 minutes West of Ann Arbor in Jackson, MI. PM or email me and I'll give you directions to the Judo Club.

[Oso]

Thanks. Will do. My girl has a bunch of friends that train some sort of Shaolin with a teacher named "Mr. G". I'll be visiting them as well. Ever heard of him?

[MightyB]

I don't know Mr. G. One of the guys who works for me has a female roomate who's been training with Mr. G.

I don't know if he's legit... I did see a kid swinging a Dao pretty badly in a parade while wearing a karate outfit. If he's studying with G... it doesn't look good.

The only Kung Fu guy I know of from Ann Arbor is Victor Chow who teaches Bagua, Xing Yi, and Tai Chi.

[EarthDragon]

quick question. seems like those who study bagua always seem to cross it with xingyi and taichi. now I know the whole circle/linear approach but just wondering if these complement each other so well that if you do one you must do the other.

also doesnt bagua and xingyi have enough information in of themselves to keep you busy for say 20 years?

the fighting aspect of taichi alone takes a lifetime to master so why would one mix two other styles with it to complete themselves?

anyone?

[BeiTangLang]

Just a guess mind you;

While I am not sure the reasons for training bagua & taichi at the same time, learning xingyi as a "counterpoint" seems to be not such a bad idea....taking the yin with the yang so to speak.

~BTL

-added after research-

Here is a very good explanation from Lu Hung-Bin (deceased) quoted from an interview several years back (I cannot remember the original publisher);

""Taijiquan is growing in popularity to*day in America. You seem to feel that the other two styles, Pa Kua Chang and Hsing-I Chuan are also necessary to round out a student’s education. Why is this?

"Anyone who really wants to live a long life and be happy by practicing internal arts must learn to practice all three of the internal martial arts. Each one has some*thing special offer , and collectively they are the tops for health, longevity and self-protection.

When you practice Taijiquan it devel*ops the mind power, helps you to relax in stressful situations and improves Qi flow. When you practice Pa Kua Chang its stimu*lates the acupuncture meridians and de*velops tendon, ligament and muscular power. Hsing-I Chuan is for balancing and harmonizing your internal organs. The three used together will supply you with all that you need.""

[EarthDragon]

thanks Bei, wow that totally answers my question.

I have heard that thelinear forms in baugua not the circle walking align the meridians. is this true? and how does it more so then other styles?

[BeiTangLang]

thanks Bei, wow that totally answers my question.

I have heard that thelinear forms in baugua not the circle walking align the meridians. is this true? and how does it more so then other styles?

The kfm internal arts forum would be the better place to ask I think,...speaking of which, better get back on topic, I'd hate to be accused of hijacking, being a mod & all. :)
~BTL

[EarthDragon]

LOL what are you thinking bei? in some countries you can get beheaded for less. OK now back to the topic

[SevenStar]

Take a guy like chuck, he'd rather stand up then grapple with you, because that is his strength. But if need be he can ground and pound and sprawl to counter going down. He knows he's not a great submission guy so he'd rather stand up.

Actually, chuck is great at submission. He's wrestled all his life - was division 1 in college - and has been doing bjj for 7 years.

[FightingGorilla]

taichimantis,
actully my friend and kung fu brother Joel Sutton whom I used to train with in Buffalo and in SF entered the UFC #6 representing 8 step praying mantis and yes taught by James Shyun as an alternative and won.

He was then invited back into UFC#7 in Buffalo NY as a main event and also won........ it was deemed the bloodiest UFC match in history after joel head butted the guy, split his forhead open and stuck his thumbs in the skin and ripped it open. you can still rent the Buffalo fight at blockbuster. and read about it on our news clippings button on our website www.eightstep.com

He was the first mantis style practioner to enter the old UFC and proved himself and our style worthy of MMA.

EarthDragon,

Thank you for your post. The early UFC battles were really the best (IMHO)... before folks like Senator John McCain (R-AZ) whined about the fights and got them banned on pay-per-view channels. The UFC then came back, restructured, with new rules, under a Nevada ownership, and had a re-surrgence of popularity.

I believe sport fighting has it's place, but still there is a certain reserve, if any rules apply at all. In my opinion, in a life-or-death situation, there would be no rules, so (IMHO) I would like to train for that event, rather than for sport, or for points.

I have studied at a couple different schools, and my most recent Sifu was the closest to original Shaolin Kung Fu as I have found. Many styles are (sort-of) mixed in America nowadays, but sometimes that can be very good. As I saw one poster write, a Sifu can make the combination of his styles his own style, which in effect is what (I think) we should all do.

I have considered searching out a military-trained teacher, wherein the school would offer me the ability to learn to take a punch as well as give a punch back. Many schools are very good on forms, and aerobic excercises, but to me, if you cannot use the art to defend yourself, it isn't much good. Sport fighting is one thing, but there are some techniques that can be learned that would be against the rules in sport fighting, even UFC matches. I found a list of banned strikes or "fouls", etc. for UFC on Wikipedia, that list is here (scroll down when on that page):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Fighting_Championship

This might sound strange, but I am thinking that this list would be a very good place to start if I were to really want to defend myself in a life-and-death scenario. If these actions are too vivid for the UFC, must be they are very effective for really disabling an opponent who would threaten one's life, thus a very good place to start for real-world self-defense.

My first martial arts instructor had a saying at his school, it is common (I think) to many schools... "It is never good to fight with another, but if you must fight...win."

I would prefer to live my life in peace, much like the Gorilla that I take my user name from, but at the same time, having peace within and witout, I would desire to plan to defend my life at all costs. That may be the absolute for many martial artists, and I think ultimately it is, but to me, and IMHO, sport fighting sort of "side-tracks" the harmony portion of life, and actually (in some ways, because of the rules) limits the martial artist.

Control is part of the art, and to train, one must learn to achieve control. But when the adrenalin is flowing, and your life is truly in danger, control would not be an option. Especially if your wife or children's life were on the line as well as your own. Part of the control I have found in life is to stay away from geographical locations that would represent a higher risk of danger to my person. I am always on a personal "higher alert" when traveling through any major city, and I prefer, for my life, to live out in the country, where the population is less, and the control of my life is higher. To me, martial arts can envelope all aspects of my behavior, and part of that behavior is to obtain an inner-peace and harmony. Some arts miss that point, but I have tried (at least on some level) to find harmony through my attention to good will, honor, and respect for fellow man.

Sport fighting has it's place, and some swear by it as a way to hone their skills, and for those I welcome their approach and encourage them to continue on their path. Fulfillment of life comes in various forms, and in many different styles. And I am in no way condemning sport fighting, I think it is awesome. It is just not something I would enter into on my life's path. That is a personal choice for myself, and not a judgement on other's enjoyment of the atheletics.

I have enjoyed this particular thread, and I thought I would add my unique 2 cents to the topic.



FightingGorilla

[WinterPalm]

I rented the UFC 8 I believe: The Brawl in Buffalo. It listed the preliminary fights with "O" winning and a praying mantis fighter winning. Neither of these fights were shown. I am interested in seeing how the fights went with the Praying Mantis guys mentioned. Is there any online video of them?

[Ronin BaBu]

Don't worry, I'm going to get on the Ultimate Fighter show, and win that, then go into the UFC and get title shot (of course winning it). All the while I'll be representing 8 step, showing everyone that traditional martial arts are still strong and can stand up to these modern combat arts.
So keep an eye out, not this upcoming season, but maybe the next.

[Gimsong]

I believe youre looking at it from an optimisic standpoint and forgetting the main purpose of the mantis system. The mantis fights because it has no other options and it feels endangered. Mantis is made for quick attacks to end the situation. The UFC is just Mui Tai with takedowns. Its egotistical to hope for mantis to be used in an environment such as UFC. Real mantisboxing is humble and patient.

[TaichiMantis]

I believe youre looking at it from an optimisic standpoint and forgetting the main purpose of the mantis system. The mantis fights because it has no other options and it feels endangered. Mantis is made for quick attacks to end the situation. The UFC is just Mui Tai with takedowns. Its egotistical to hope for mantis to be used in an environment such as UFC. Real mantisboxing is humble and patient.

I think you can keep the two separate. There are many techniques from mantis (and CMA in general) that can be used or modified for sport fighting. Kudos to any mantis fighter that is willing to go into the ring with it! Good Luck, keep us posted...

[Ronin BaBu]

The mantis fights because it has no other options and it feels endangered. Mantis is made for quick attacks to end the situation. The UFC is just Mui Tai with takedowns. Its egotistical to hope for mantis to be used in an environment such as UFC.

You're one of those people who believe martial arts were made for self defense aren't you? Well if you are, you are WRONG. Martial arts were made for fighting. THat is the sole purpose.

I'm not sure if you are talking about the insect or the practicioner. The insect mantis does not fight because it has no other options. The [insect] mantis is a predator, it kills because it has an insatiable appetite. It does not usually have to defend itself as a human would seeing as how one of the only predators of the mantis is the bat. So on that account you are not quite accurate.
If you are talking about the practioner, well that depends on the practicioner. I'll fight if I feel offended or threatened, or just for fun occasionally. There is no kung fu law, although you may think there is. I fight for whatever I want to fight for.
If you think your style can't stand up to the fighters in the UFC, then you should find a better style, or a better teacher, or practice harder. But don't make excuses for yourself because you are not good enough.

[Oso]

given the single post, I'd say he was trolling...but, maybe not.

[Gimsong]

There is no right or wrong in this matter. There is just opinions. There is also no need to question the integrety of my system. It is, in my opinion, developed for fighting. Not for ring sparring. It is used to end the situation quickly. I agree that certain aspects of mantis could be used in ring fights, but then youre taking away the essence of the mantis systems. Do you really need to prove that your system works? What ever happened to humility?

[mantis108]

Now, if your mantis prepares you for something like in the following link:

Nunchuku and Brawling (http://www.filecabi.net/video/felony-fight-nun.html)

as well as "art" (ie applications, forms, etc) You should be doing fine. If not well, may be you should do a reality check and take a look around to find someone who could help you with that.

This clip of course is 2 knuckle head kids taking their aggressions out on each other. We can see there definitely is no love between them.

The nunchuku use was pretty "non eventful". It quickly when to the ground (surprise, surprise. ;) ) In fact, every time some one picks up the nunchuku, he usually gets into trouble more so than without it. Lots of classic text book head locks and slugging. We haven't seen fish hooks for awhile but it's rather "refreshing" (for lack of a better way to put it). Seriously though without a good position those fish hooks amounts to nothing. We can also see the kid in green trunks staggers near the end properly due to the conditioning factor and the fact that he got a good smack in the head by the nunchuku.

Good luck and good training. ;) :)

Mantis108

[Ronin BaBu]

I agree that certain aspects of mantis could be used in ring fights, but then youre taking away the essence of the mantis systems.

I understand what you are saying now a bit better.
But why can't a person finish ring fights as quick as a mantis fighter supposedly finishes street fights?

And Oso were you referring to me about trolling?
I'm not sure what it is but I don't like the sound of it.

[Gimsong]

But why can't a person finish ring fights as quick as a mantis fighter supposedly finishes street fights?

That is a good point. I thought about that and there is no reason when they couldnt.
Another thing that you would have to look at is the caliber of fighter. The person who could effectivly go into a ring and use mantis to end the situation would more than likely have a few years training. In the generality of martial arts you typically find that the longer you train the less you need to fight. The idea behing this is that the man that steps into the ring would just be doing so to prove himself better, he already knows his system works and is effective, now he is just entering the ring to boast his ego.
Now to defend the style of one-sidedness that i seem to be so fond of writing. It is not completely egotistical to want to step into the ring and use mantis. I am trying to shed light on another point of view. Not challenge peoples systems or ideals.

[Oso]

I understand what you are saying now a bit better.
But why can't a person finish ring fights as quick as a mantis fighter supposedly finishes street fights?

And Oso were you referring to me about trolling?
I'm not sure what it is but I don't like the sound of it.

good lord, unbunch your panties...I was TALKING to YOU about GIMSONG

but, it might be, as I said, that he isn't trolling...time will tell.;)

[Jared1211]

I have been training mantis under an expert teacher. If there is one thing I've learned from him, it is that mantis is not a tournament style fighting system. It is used to hurt you're opponent quick and end the fight. It is not for trophies or flashy moves, but more for disabling the opponent. I do not think you can fight in MMA with it because of this. There is no developing the inner strength through gloves.

[Oso]

sheesh...if you can't use what you know in any venue/format than what good is it?

my only caveat to that statement is that you have to train for whatever venue you are going to compete in....AND CMA has limited ground skills so unless you cross train you are going to be sorely challenged to defend against someones ground game...

it's been said over and over again that all the 'killing' and 'maiming' techniques don't do a hell of a lot of good if you don't actually train them by killing and maiming people with them because you never follow through the technique completely. you fight how you train. if you train to...stop just short of the eye....or a soft grab to the throat...or a moderate tap to the groin...or a slow entry and incomplete follow through on the elbow break...then you DON'T REALLY KNOW HOW TO DO ANY OF THOSE THINGS.

so, put some gloves on and figure out how to tranlate what you know to a safe venue for testing it and then buy the guy who beat you/you beat a beer later.

[Ronin BaBu]

Oso, excellent point. I was just about to say that.

I tried getting at it before. People should stop making excuses for themselves; "oh I can't spar because my system doesn't work with gloves on.."
Well then your system isn't so complete.

Like you said Oso, you need to be able to adapt to certain situation. Who knows what kind of circumstance you'll encounter on the street. Better to be prepared for different kinds of problems.

And stepping into a ring has nothing to do with ego. It is a sport, an excercise, fun for some people, a career for other people. That guy was making it sound like fighting is childish and immature. I feel competition is very useful to a martial artist. It hightens your skill. It makes you train harder and more effectively when you know that you will have to stand up against another human who is going to try and beat you down.

Biyakusha!

[bung bo]

Good post, Oso.

[Oso]

thanks...but, what I said has been said by many others here...just being redundant.


bung bo: next time, we need to make sure we're on opposite sides of the line-up ...I still owe you a black eye ;) and, yes...the kettlebells seem to be doing you some good. keep it up, bro.

[Jared1211]

I was not saying it can't be used in MMA period. Any style in the world can be slightly changed to be used in MMA. I'm simply saying the traditional/exact mantis teaching is what I'm learning. You cannot develop chi through a glove. It can be slightly differed to be used though. I do think my system is utterly complete for this one reason, I USE CHI. If 5 guys on the street run into one who really knows mantis, it shouldn't be a fight for the mantis.

[Ronin BaBu]

You use Chi...
Could you elaborate?

[Gimsong]

Honestly not trying to provoke a conflict here but could you elaborate on how you can use your chi to easily disable five men. It is feasibly possible to disable five people. Being an expert mantis practitioner would better the probability of walking away from the situation. Explain though how chi would help. Also this subject is straying away from the original topic. Just to keep that in mind.

[Oso]

ahhh....SPM... ;) and only 2 years of training to boot. Not bashing SPM, I think it's a fine style.

dude, EVERYONE uses chi...if we didn't...we'd fall over dead, i think.

there have also been a multitude of discussions about chi use in fighting...go read some older threads and come back when you have something new to say about it.

I was present at a seminar once that had a long time kung fu guy teaching some techniqes...that were fine if you had honed your jing/silk reeling energy to an incredibly fine point AND had spent a great deal of time on iron palm training. At that seminar there was also a karate guy; 40+ years of training and quite a bit of experience in the military. He was there as a guest instructor. He was quiet during the seminar mostly and at the end made a statement to the effect of 'there are really only 3 ways to be sure of killing someone as quickly as possible with your bear hands and that is to crush the throat, break the neck or crush the skull (by throw)'

[Three Harmonies]

Any idiot that thinks he can fight 5 men and win, has not been in a real fight, but also has delusions of grander!! The most respected fighters I know and have spoken to said if their is more than one guy your best technique is run-fu! Don't mean to deflate anyone's ballon, but get real.

Cheers
Jake :cool:

[Oso]

Indeed.

I've had 3 situations as a bouncer where I was outnumbered and when I realized I was, I got the fudge out of the way and let them beat the crap out of each other.

Only in one of them did I manage to get two dudes, who were already wrestling each other, so tangled up in each other that I was able to get both of their arms kinda locked together and then just kinda sat on them till more bouncers got on the scene. But, it took too long and I shoulda just clocked em both behind the ear and picked em up later. ;)

[Jared1211]

I'm just saying that chi does make you more durable in ways and attacks have more force. I've watched my teacher using the mantis system and none of the guys have a chance because by the time the fight starts he's already taken down 2 or 3 guys. After mastering this, we shouldn't have to prove ourselves in an MMA bout. MMA fighters think mantis fighters don't fight in tournaments because traditional styles are useless. I know this isn't true and if you all train mantis, you do too.

[Three Harmonies]

Bro 98% of the MMA fighters would eat up the majority of Mantis / Choy Li Fut / Wing Chun etc. etc. players! I have seen very few CMA schools that train like a MMA would. It has nothing to do with style. Not to mention the ground game which has been done to death.
I admire your vigor, but reality is reality. Their have been murmuring's over on EF about Ray Pina doing MMA to "prove" that CMA (in his case he does internal CMA) can hang at the UFC level. We shall see. I think his first fight is coming up.
Cheers
Jake :cool:

[Ronin BaBu]

Ah ******, the 'proving' thing was supposed to be my job.

[Three Harmonies]

Go for it bro. We can never have to many peeps representing CMA in the full contact arena! Train hard and go do it!
Cheers
Jake :cool:

[sall the same]

I had been discussing this yesterday with a man who takes shotokan. personally my preferred martial arts is taekwondo; however he brought up a good pont. we were asking why we dont see more judo in the ufc. (dont worry ill get back to the point sparring) Now I said it was probably for the fact that judo has its own olympic championships. He said it was probably because when judo became an olypic sport, they took out many of the devastating moves over the years. I also noticed its happening with taekwondo, i wouldnt be surprised if it happened to tkd in the next 30 years. during class we used to learn the traditional, but now to compete in the tournaments we learn more of the tournament style kicks. So i guess we'll see in a few years. its probably for the best that your praying mantis style doesnt change for the tournaments, so as your style stays pure.

[EarthDragon]

GIMSONG & JARRED1211

Just to let you know 8 step mantis was used in the UFC 6& 7 and proven itself with 2 wins back to back.

My kung fu brother Joel and I trained for this event for a long time in NY and SF while he had the ambition to enter I did not, he won both bouts and was nick named the bloodiest UFC match in history. So check your facts before you say it doesnt work in the ring. you must first research things before you discredit them and make assumptions that are wrong.

PS you can see the news clippings on our website under articles

[Ronin BaBu]

we were asking why we dont see more judo in the ufc. .

There are a bunch of guys that study Judo in the UFC. Most all of those guys cross train.

[sall the same]

Oh really? i never noticed any judo practitioners in the ufc. I do see many of the throughs, but we study many judo throws in hapkido as well. i just assumed they were the throws that branched into other martial arts. thnks i suppose ill pay more attention from now on.

[Gimsong]

Not trying to pass judgement or tell people what they think and believe here but i do believe that you are looking at it from the wrong perception. There is more ways to veiw the matter than black or white. Some people say CMA would be crushed, some say it would easily dominate the opponent. Is there really any right or wrong in the matter. Does it not depend on the fighter or is it all entirely on the methods he trains? Saying that a UFC fighter could easily beat a CMA practitioner is incomplete...and it never will be completed because the settings of the match. A CMA fighter would have less of a chance in the ring of a UFC bout, but has the CMA fighter trained to fight in rounds with a time limit? How exactly would a UFC fighter do in a spontanious situation compared to a CMA practitioner? Theres no right or wrong.

[Ronin BaBu]

Thats a decent point. It *most* always comes down to the practicioner. Of course.. hypothetically speaking, sometimes the style does matter. If you teach a guy that the proper fighting stance is arms straight down in your pockets, and chin up in the air, it's a no brainer that somebody with a better style will beat him. Certain styles DO have more than other styles.

Gimsong, what you say only rings true because usually, two people of exact equal skill from different styles don't fight. So until we get two identical people with the same stats, then it will boil down to the practioner, not the style.

[EarthDragon]

jared1211, can you please answer mine and ronin babu question about using chi
you said You cannot develop chi through a glove. It can be slightly differed to be used though. I do think my system is utterly complete for this one reason, I USE CHI. If 5 guys on the street run into one who really knows mantis, it shouldn't be a fight for the mantis.

i am very curious as to know what your talking about

[Three Harmonies]

Dragon
Everyone is! Even him! ;) :rolleyes:
Jake :cool:

[EarthDragon]

Jake LOL I was really looking forward to his explaination, I figured it would be a doosey!

the only thing i have been taught when fighting more than one guy is to hit the biggest one with everthing you got and hope he was also the toughest and his friends would then think twice.:D

I also have a hard time developing chi when dressed in leather clothing so I use silk for the qi flows unimpeded through it much easier.

[sall the same]

also another technique useful against a group is to keep one onfront of another. do not allow them to surround you. instead, keep them between on another to keep the fight mono a mono. you dont want to be overwhelmed so block and keep them fighting you one at a time. when you get an opening attack fiercly and hope you drop him with one shot. we practice two on one in our dojo. so id assume you do the same against more than two.

[EarthDragon]

sall, agreed. I have been in 2 on 1 situations before, never good however if you have a wall car or any kind of obstacle to back up to you cut off the angles and keep your arse out of harms way, you can also do as you said and use thier own bodies, but that only works until your grabbed or hit then they come from any side.

That is is they are really looking to harm you, most fights are BS and over ego nothing more, a real fight is when you have to defend your life or the lives of your family then you fight to kill and thats a whole different level. luckiy I have only had to do this once when I was stabbed and hopefully will never have to again but then again i moved out of the city and now in the burbs of NY where its nice and quiet:)

[sall the same]

From personel experience i tend to stay away from walls. im not very large, though very fast, and like to keep area to move. when grabbed i tend to go for sweeps which hammpers others from moving in. also i find that keeping away from walls gives you the oppurtunity to run whenever it presents itslef. I can admit i am no bruce lee and can not take on an army of opponents if i have no one to protect other than myself as i said earlier i am very fast.

[EarthDragon]

try to understand using the wall allows only 3 directions in which to be attacked rather than 4 .......dont get me wrong cornered is no good either but a wall can be used in your advantage.

to touch upon your speed statement

I was once told that strength is good, power is great, technique is better but nothing can be matched by speed....................... until one day my shifu said true but speed is always beaten by intelligence............

[Frogman]

Well it’s nice to see that although I have been gone for some time not much has changed… I do see a few new faces,  I hope everyone one has been well…

I am not a big fan of fighting with gloves as I do think that it limits mantis fighting. Still!~ Mantis is not all hands. Some of my favorite mantis techniques are to knock down my opponent using more of my body and motion not just hands. Seems to me it doesn’t have that much to do with using mantis in the ring as it has to do with looking past the hands. As for the level of aggression that is also a bunch of crap! If you can not use your technique with out hurting someone you most likely don’t have enough control to do the kind of serious damage mantis fight is known for… Your training is everything. If you train hard you will fight hard. The style is important but your understanding is more important. It seems more often then not that when a western kung fu fighter of any style puts on gloves they turn into boxers. Bouncing around on their tippy toes throwing jabs… yea it’s shameful… of course, it is entirely possible to use mantis fighting in the ring if you apply the strategies of mantis fighting. Hook Grapple Pluck, so forth… or more advance and evade… you do lose the ability to grab with hand but it does not mean you can’t get an arm bar, locking your opponent up followed with a knock down. Contact, cling, tag, lean, yea baby!! Don’t see enough use of posture and leverage to knock the other guy off balance. One of the reasons I enjoy watching push hands. Soft energy is IMO the most effective self-defense tool you can have. Not sure why you can’t use it through a glove maybe you have the supernatural kind. Using soft movement as a technique is a very deep subject that I am not qualified to speak about but am trying to rap my head around. Actually I’m trying to sink my feet into:::::::

Anyone who has trained long enough knows that if you think you have it figured out that just means you need to start looking at it from a different prospective. I believe that if you want to use mantis in sports you should be able to. As with any style or technique you have to modify it at some point to fit it into the situation in front of you. Whether in the ring or on the street you must accommodate your environment, as long as you follow the methods of your training, it will remain mantis fighting././

Anyway it’s nice to be back, fun to put my two cents in. I don’t get that much time these days so this is just visit for me. Good to see those of you I know and glad to meet those of you I don’t. Have a safe holiday everyone.

RibHit
fm

[sall the same]

I know where your coming from, and i do see how it helps. the only way i think i would do it is as a last resort. but once your back is against the wall your stuck. theres no other way outta the fight but to fight the fight. i like the idea of being able to know my back is covered and they cant hit me in the back of the head, but i also like to nkow that when the oppurntunity to get out of there arises, i can bolt. no sense in looking like a hero when its an unnecesary fight. but again if i knew the fight couldnt be stoped i could see myself backing into the wall. maybe i just dont have enough confidence in my skills as a fighter to wanna stick it out and go back against the wall with a hoard of guys. who knows, just dont feel safe limiting my room to move.

[Jared1211]

By using internal strength instead of outer it makes someone have more stamina, you can absorb more strikes, and your attacks have all the more power. The way we would fight more than one is to aim for pressure points and clear the air around us using circles. The circles are the biggest part of mantis. You can block more than one attack with just one circle with your arm. The way to end it is I would be kicking and using the phoenix eye together which in result breaks shins if I miss with the phoenix eye or if the phoenix eye hits correctly it will rule the one it hit out of the fight. I'm not saying every fight with 5 people would be a success at all. It all depends on the skills of the other fighters too. At the beginning of the fight whoever of the ones fighting me stepped up and there was the least bit of opening to the face. A very hard flick is going right for the eyes.

[Oso]

Jared,

it sounds like you have a good teacher. however, it also sounds like you are maybe taking things a bit too literall in his teachings. maybe not, maybe so.

you are right, IMO, in a lot of things you are saying....however, it also sounds like you have not had any fights outside of your own circle.

how close are you to Western NC? I've only had one seminar's experience in SPM but I'd be willing to trade hands with you or your teacher. Not a challenge...just a friendly exchange.

I'm getting ready to start a Saturday sparring class open to everyone that's willing to abide by my school rules.

shoot me a PM if you are interested.

[Jared1211]

I am actually very close to you. I am in eastern TN. My teacher is an excellent teacher. He learned SPM with Hagood from Louie Man Jack himself. He amazes me more and more every time I see him, but from hearing him talk about Louie he knows nothing(as he would put it). Sometime in the future I would like to get together and compare. I will leave my teacher's name unmentioned but you get the picture.

[Oso]

sure thing. I just moved my school and am still reorganizing and getting settle in but will be getting set up for the saturday get togethers soon. I'll PM you when we're good to go.

[Three Harmonies]

Brother, you need some help.
First of all stamina has NOTHING to do with "internal" power. That is purely conditioning, and unfortunately is a grueling, time consuming, physical endeavor. You can practice all the qi gong in the world and it will not give you more stamina in a fight.
Secondly.... how many times have you seen someones shin break from one single kick???? I have never seen it, except once in the ring. Once. I would not rely on it. I agree that a shin strike hurts like hell, but to rely on it to break something!?!?!
Third.... ahhhhhhh, pressure points. Again like Mat was saying, you obviously have not been in a conflict with someone real time. Using pressure points to strike someone in a real time fight is bunk. Dude you will get tore up.
I say this not to hurt you, but hopefully to give some dose of reality. It sounds like you are serious about training (though I have to wonder why you are embarrassed to claim your teacher??), but are living a strange fantasy of how fights really flow (if you can call chaos "flowing").
I have trained with many SPM guys, and while many were good, I never got my shin broke, and they never, NEVER, hit a pressure point unless I was stadning still and allowed them to demo on me. Not saying it is not a good style, just that the way you are speaking sounds potentially dangerous if you get in a real altercation.
I think you should get with Matt and train a bit. He can help you out as his skills are great, plus he has a grappling background which is a bit important if we are talking about street combat, or multiple fighters.
Hope this helps,
Jake :cool:

[bungbukuen]

Jake - hold your horses there big fella! ;) I agree with your points, but kindly drop the attitude. Jared1211 does have some misperceptions about the art, but he is being civil. You can do the same. Oso did a fine job of making his point very clearly - we all understood. But he also remained quite freindly about the whole thing and did not talk in a condesending manner. We can all do the same.

Cheers,
BBK

[Three Harmonies]

No attitude meant. I harbor no ill feelings towards anyone here. We owe it to the beginner martial artist's out there to start speaking with some truth and honesty, and that is all that is found in my previous post. Just trying to help a brother out with a dose of reality. I did not say his **** was fake, or bunk, or nothing. I would feel terrible if someone on this board got in an altercation and tried to use their pressure point strikes on mulitple assailants. They would get stomped!
Geez, I post a message or two after many moons of no posts and already rubbing folks the wrong way. :confused: Doesn't take me long :eek:
Jake :cool:

[Jared1211]

I will never understand the people on these forums that are here to criticize other people or their styles. First things first, I am far away from being ashamed of my teacher. I don't mention his name because he requests it. Second, internal strength does help with stamina. Not directly, but if you are using a relaxed stance which deals with chi you are not affected by stamina as much. That is what I meant. Third, someone's shins won't break quite so easily so you hit the knees instead. Last of all, I have taken more grappling than I have SPM so I have the ground game, too. Oh, and just for the record, if SPM fighters are against a wall they are not weakened any at all by this. I'm not getting an attitude with you either, Three Harmonies. I am just correcting what you misread about me. I was not talking about you being one of the critical ones at all.

[TaichiMantis]

Second, internal strength does help with stamina. Not directly, but if you are using a relaxed stance which deals with chi you are not affected by stamina as much. .

Jared, you are on the right path. As I understand it, breathing and posture (i.e. relaxed body) are all part of "internal". You expend less energy, last longer, and get more bang for your buck. I fail to see how this is not related to stamina...:confused:

[Three Harmonies]

I did not know I misread you when you said "kick them in the shin."
I would agree that being relaxed is helpful in a fight, but their is more to that in qigong. Let me ask you this..... you are preparing for a 3 round MMA fight (or full contact whatever). You only have 2 hours a day (for whatever reason) to work on stamina. Are you going to spend it on Qi gong, or grappling/sparring with a partner?
No offense with the teacher comment. Just strange, that is all.
Did not realize I was stepping on so many toes with my "criticism." I did not mean to be critical, but some of these ideas are going to get someone hurt on the street. Perhaps they work on all other levels for people, which is fine. I just find it an unrealistic approach relevant to a conversation on multiple attackers.
Forget I said anything. I do not know how many times I need to be reminded why I do not post that much here on KFO anymore. Was just trying to be realistic.
Cheers
Jake :cool:

[bungbukuen]

Jake - as I mentioned before I agreed with your points. I think everyone will agree with you that it is important to remain realistic. But I think most people would agree that it is also counter productive to write in a condesending attitude. Remeber it is not what you say but how you say it. Dont be so hard on yourself :)

Jared1211 - I think everyone on this board will agree for the most part that internal qigong generally has more to do with maintaining good mind/body health, rather than actually having anything to do directly with fighting. If you don't already have good levels of physical power, quickness, and skill, qigong is not going to help in anyway in a fight. Keep training hard!

BBK

[Oso]

Jared1211 - I think everyone on this board will agree for the most part that internal qigong generally has more to do with maintaining good mind/body health, rather than actually having anything to do directly with fighting. If you don't already have good levels of physical power, quickness, and skill, qigong is not going to help in anyway in a fight. Keep training hard!

BBK

well put.

I've always maintained that the qi gong was to help mitigate the damage you do to your body with the hard training. Fighting just t'aint good for you and you get broke up a lot.

[Jared1211]

Three Harmonies, I meant no disrespect at all. I was just correcting the points I didn't clarify. You are exactly right on most of what you said I just didn't say what I meant and it mislead you. Being critical to teach someone is one thing. I just don't get the people that are just critical to have a dispute with other people on here. I'm not saying you did, but I am a part of this bulletin to exchange knowledge or learn from it, however, alot of people on here just want to start an arguement. You make interesting points that I agree with. I also agree with the statement made stating if you don't have the quickness and stamina already that the qi training doesn't help at all in a fight, but if you do have the skills and the training in your style already the qi training does alot. That was very well said.

[Three Harmonies]

Jared
No worries. Sometimes folks here are a bit sensitive. I may be blunt, to the point, and in general NOT PC. But I never put anyone down or mean to condescend. I wish you, and all really, a wonderful journey on their personal warrior path. I just do not like seeing anyone mislead.
Cheers
Jake :cool:

[FightingGorilla]

taichimantis,
actully my friend and kung fu brother Joel Sutton whom I used to train with in Buffalo and in SF entered the UFC #6 representing 8 step praying mantis and yes taught by James Shyun as an alternative and won.

He was then invited back into UFC#7 in Buffalo NY as a main event and also won........ it was deemed the bloodiest UFC match in history after joel head butted the guy, split his forhead open and stuck his thumbs in the skin and ripped it open. you can still rent the Buffalo fight at blockbuster. and read about it on our news clippings button on our website www.eightstep.com

He was the first mantis style practioner to enter the old UFC and proved himself and our style worthy of MMA.


Sorry... just watched UFC # 7... the winner was NOT Joel Sutton... Sutton was one of the alternates for that fight, but the fight was won by Ruas... and the final match in UFC # 7 was between Varlenz & Ruas... the fight was in 1995...

Don't doubt Sutton might have won a UFC match, but it wasn't # 7....


FG

[Three Harmonies]

Gorilla
Interesting. I never went back and looked through the old school vids. Guess I should be careful whos word I take eh?!
Thanks
Jake :cool:

[SevenStar]

Jared, you are on the right path. As I understand it, breathing and posture (i.e. relaxed body) are all part of "internal". You expend less energy, last longer, and get more bang for your buck. I fail to see how this is not related to stamina...:confused:


that being the case, all styles have an internal component...

by stamina, however, (and I'm guessing, I've only read your post) I assume he's referring to physical elements - How long your legs last before they get wobbly, how your arms hold up until they begin to drop, your cardio and anaerobic systems, etc. Yes, relaxation can help to prolong these things, but they within themselves are not ways to increase your stamina, only a method to help you conserve what you already have.

[TaichiMantis]

that being the case, all styles have an internal component...

by stamina, however, (and I'm guessing, I've only read your post) I assume he's referring to physical elements - How long your legs last before they get wobbly, how your arms hold up until they begin to drop, your cardio and anaerobic systems, etc. Yes, relaxation can help to prolong these things, but they within themselves are not ways to increase your stamina, only a method to help you conserve what you already have.

I understand that. I was only trying to point out that internal aspects of training are not unrelated to stamina, it allows one to work more effieciently.

[bungbukuen]

Being relaxed is a pretty common attribute amoungst all high level athletes.

Even though its also pretty fundametnal to Qigong training, I think qigong involves a lot more.


So I guess my question is what other specific internal aspects are you talking about, and how do they relate to increasing stamina?




Thanks,
BBK

[SevenStar]

Sorry... just watched UFC # 7... the winner was NOT Joel Sutton... Sutton was one of the alternates for that fight, but the fight was won by Ruas... and the final match in UFC # 7 was between Varlenz & Ruas... the fight was in 1995...

Don't doubt Sutton might have won a UFC match, but it wasn't # 7....


FG


According to sherdog, he did fight in 7, but he was not a main event. He beat a guy named geza kalman by tko due to a cut. That was sutton's last win. His current record is 2-4-1.

KFM forum member subitai was in that same UFC and won his fight as well.