View Full Version : Katrina devastated the south, gas 6 $ a gallon
The hurricane hit the deep south and the oil refineries.
news (http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/hurricanes_and_tropical_storms)
:(
Shaolinlueb
09-01-2005, 09:52 AM
thousands dead, people looting. they had to stop the search for survivors because so many people with guns and such looting. read its a warzone down there. :(
SimonM
09-01-2005, 09:53 AM
**** man, that sux.
Chief Fox
09-01-2005, 10:01 AM
Donate to the Red Cross: http://www.redcross.org/
New Orleans was 80% evacuated before the storm.
That left 250,000 still in the city.
Less than 100,000 refugees/people at the Super Dome
Over 100,000 people unaccounted for.
This is very very bad. :(
PlumDragon
09-01-2005, 10:46 AM
Southern AL is out of gas. Here in Northern AL we only ahve a couple days left before we run out...Gas prices last night were about $2.70 for the cheapest gas at the cheapest station in town. Thats almost $0.70 higher than it was a coiupel months ago.
David Jamieson
09-01-2005, 11:37 AM
holy geez.
what's with all the looting and violence?
When we had the blackout up here in the northeast we didn't experience a spike like that at all.
Pretty amazing how fast it all falls to sh1t eh?
prepare.
YuanZhideDiZhen
09-01-2005, 11:40 AM
so who was the guy that prayed to his god to wipe out the headquarters of sony/bmg's writer's groups monopoly?
Ou Ji
09-01-2005, 11:54 AM
Another reminder why I train, and own guns.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050901/ts_nm/weather_katrina_dc_87
YuanZhideDiZhen
09-01-2005, 12:45 PM
when the civil service personell are riding around in boats with ar-15's and not giving aid and comfort i have no simpathy for them getting shot.
Chief Fox
09-01-2005, 12:56 PM
holy geez.
what's with all the looting and violence?
When we had the blackout up here in the northeast we didn't experience a spike like that at all.
Pretty amazing how fast it all falls to sh1t eh?
prepare.
I can see the violence happening. No food, no clean water, no electricity, no roads, no place to go. On top of that, the city is flooded and people are wading through waste water. Add to that, high temperatures and high humidity.
I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm just saying I can see it happening. So sad. :(
PangQuan
09-01-2005, 01:00 PM
us here on the west coast are in for it now.
Compared to the rest of the world, we are far over due for a major disaster.
Chief Fox
09-01-2005, 01:04 PM
when the civil service personell are riding around in boats with ar-15's and not giving aid and comfort i have no simpathy for them getting shot.
So a hurricane blows in a destroys a town and a lot of people are now homeless with no food or water and somehow this makes it ok to commit murder? Sorry, I don't see your reasoning. :confused:
YuanZhideDiZhen
09-01-2005, 01:31 PM
So a hurricane blows in a destroys a town and a lot of people are now homeless with no food or water and somehow this makes it ok to commit murder? Sorry, I don't see your reasoning. :confused:
where there is no rule of law might equals right. if the civil authorities refuse to render assistance when it is thier job and duty to do so it is criminal negligence. in this case the courts will probably rule in defense of the parties attempting to board civil service boats and using force to do so.
PlumDragon
09-01-2005, 01:50 PM
Pretty amazing how fast it all falls to sh1t eh?
prepare.
Yes!
Like 1,000,000 tons of bricks being suspended 100 miles in the sky, by a rope that can hold 1,000,000.1 tons.
YuanZhideDiZhen
09-01-2005, 01:58 PM
Yes!
Like 1,000,000 tons of bricks being suspended 100 miles in the sky, by a rope that can hold 1,000,000.1 tons.
actually, at 100miles altitude you would only need common sewing thread to hold it together and in one place.
Ou Ji
09-01-2005, 02:01 PM
I don't think it's a lack of food and water. It's greed taking advantage of the situation. You'll never convince me that looting stores for TV sets are brought on by hunger.
How about the 2 hospitals under seige by crooks looking for pain killers?
YuanZhideDiZhen
09-01-2005, 02:18 PM
assuming there's a place where you can sell the tv for money to buy food and medicine you can always claim the state and other municipalities failed to do thier job thereby endangering your life and forcing you to extreem measures to survive.
nowhere have i seen reports of people looting electronics stores: there is no power for fifty miles inland along a 135 mile stretch of the coast. all the vids i've seen are for groceries, clothing and life sustaining medicines. i have seen no reports of an assault on a hosital for narcotics. i have heard of people stealing portable generators from hospitals in lafayette, but that is unlikely because most of the stranded are trying to get to someplace where there is power and water.
PangQuan
09-01-2005, 02:22 PM
When a man is not properly balanced within, an out side influence will sway his actions. When this influence is of a "good" nature the reaction will be in kind, for so long as the influence remains. However when corruption has a strangle hold on the weak, they will be consumed by its mighty flame.
--PangQuan :p
YuanZhideDiZhen
09-01-2005, 02:28 PM
When a man is not properly balanced within, an out side influence will sway his actions. When this influence is of a "good" nature the reaction will be in kind, for so long as the influence remains. However when corruption has a strangle hold on the weak, they will be consumed by its mighty flame.
--PangQuan :p
it's really nice to see such an optomistic view of the world every once in a while, i thank you, kindly. the cold hard reality is that you've never been in that kind of situation. you've probably never been to a developing country or to a ravaged country. or even been without food on your shelves for several days. being hungry changes a person. being hungry and desperate makes killers out of saints. have some sympathy for what they're going through.
Liokault
09-01-2005, 02:51 PM
it's really nice to see such an optomistic view of the world every once in a while, i thank you, kindly. the cold hard reality is that you've never been in that kind of situation. you've probably never been to a developing country or to a ravaged country. or even been without food on your shelves for several days. being hungry changes a person. being hungry and desperate makes killers out of saints. have some sympathy for what they're going through.
Makes killers out of saints, and makes taking a TV nothing at all.
As its being reported in the UK, most of the people that were left in the city were to poor to own a car or pay for a bus out. Did you really leave your poor to drown. Are you really sending in troops to shoot (again as reported here) looters (i.e the poor) who are taking abandoned TV sets?
Chief Fox
09-01-2005, 02:54 PM
where there is no rule of law might equals right. if the civil authorities refuse to render assistance when it is thier job and duty to do so it is criminal negligence. in this case the courts will probably rule in defense of the parties attempting to board civil service boats and using force to do so.
Sorry dude, still doesn't make sense. Just because a person is hot, tired, hungy, p!ssed off and standing in sh!t, dosn't mean they can kill someone. I don't care how you word it, but you don't forcefully board a boat in "defense".
PangQuan
09-01-2005, 03:05 PM
it's really nice to see such an optomistic view of the world every once in a while, i thank you, kindly. the cold hard reality is that you've never been in that kind of situation. you've probably never been to a developing country or to a ravaged country. or even been without food on your shelves for several days. being hungry changes a person. being hungry and desperate makes killers out of saints. have some sympathy for what they're going through.
LOL, i was homeless for three years man. Dont count your eggs before they are hatched...
I commited my share of crimes, I wont blame all on my past situations, but it was an influence to my un favorable behavior.
I have grown much and realized many truths.
Ou Ji
09-01-2005, 03:51 PM
YuanZhideDiZhen
I posted the link but I guess you didn't read it.
"Elsewhere in New Orleans, gunshots repeatedly rang out and fires flared as looters broke into stores, houses, hospitals and office buildings -- some in search of food, others looking for anything of value.
Two hospitals were under siege by robbers who used axes, guns and metal pipes to steal pain killers and medicine, according to a pilot flying relief operations into New Orleans."
Royal Dragon
09-01-2005, 06:26 PM
The sad part about this is the paraniod, wackjob survival freaks I was hanging out wiht in the late 90's allways said this stuff is what would happen in a true survival situation. They allways advocated moving to isolated high ground, and fortifying themselves with a large amourment. The whole lot of them left for some bunker they built in Montana in Fall 1999.
It scares me to think, and to actually see proof they were right about alot of what they said.
And to think I allways laughed at them, and said they had seen one too many apocolyptic movies.
Donation to red cross and united way.
For pet relief:
Read more about Noah's Wish at www.noahswish.org or http://biz.yahoo.com/pz/050831/84921.html
One of my colleage is flying down there.
Fallout
09-01-2005, 08:43 PM
I may get flamed for this, but don't get mad at the rescue people not helping. They are getting attacked!! You go to deliever food and you have an angry mob that wants to kill you. These rescuers CHOOSE to help, it's not their duty to put themselves in the middle of violent people. The citizens murder for supplies, shoot people in the head, rape women, and them demand rescue? Maybe those people deserve the disaster they got.
The helicpoter piolets get shot at. Why? becuase the people want them to stop and pick them up. How STUPID is that? Bang Bang (fires gun), Come save me!!!!. I'm shooting at you tryign to kill you, please save me!!!
The city of new orleans has bad people in it.
Fallout
09-01-2005, 08:47 PM
People like to blame governemnt or the red cross or whatever. Of course the murderer's and rapists are blameless. They are the "victums". I'm not donating a dime to help these thugs.
Fallout
09-01-2005, 08:49 PM
if not for the citizens murdering their own rescuers and bus drivers with metal pipes, maybe more people would volunteer to bus them out of the city?
What goes around comes around. Murder your rescuers, and you don't get rescued.
Chief Fox
09-01-2005, 09:58 PM
People like to blame governemnt or the red cross or whatever. Of course the murderer's and rapists are blameless. They are the "victums". I'm not donating a dime to help these thugs.
Now there's a comment to proud of. Congratulations!
I just donated to the Red Cross. Everyone that can aford an internet connection should do the same. It's the right thing to do. http://www.redcross.org
Donate.
Yes. We may also donate to the united way.
http://national.unitedway.org/
President's speech (http://national.unitedway.org/news/2005presidential_message.cfm)
:)
Makes killers out of saints, and makes taking a TV nothing at all.
As its being reported in the UK, most of the people that were left in the city were to poor to own a car or pay for a bus out. Did you really leave your poor to drown. Are you really sending in troops to shoot (again as reported here) looters (i.e the poor) who are taking abandoned TV sets?
That's how they're reporting it? Wow.
No, that aspect is really getting overplayed. A lot simply refused to leave, trusting the levies to hold, being defiant in the face of the storm. Also remember that the jails were let out due to flooding, the flooding drowned any cars you could possibly take out of there, there's only one major road in or out, and many boats were wrecked, too.
Regardless, the mayor and governor did a bad job of emergency leadership. Nobody has currently gotten control of the city or region, overall.
In total, 9 cities were hit and most routes between them affected. Communications are nil.
The nine:
New Orleans, population 1.2 million, Slidell, pop. 26,000, Bay St. Louis/Waveland pop. 12,000, Long Beach, pop. 17,000, Gulfport, pop. 71,000, Biloxi, pop. 50,000, Ocean Springs, pop. 17,000, Psacagoula/Moss Point/Gautier, pop. 42,000, and Mobile, pop. 198,000.
Here are more places to help:
network (http://www.networkforgood.org/topics/animal_environ/hurricanes/)
:cool:
If you can't donate, donate time [if you're a US citizen, I guess]. A lot of volunteer agencies could use a hand, and there's a ton of rebuilding to do what with around a million homeless. Habitat for Humanity, while run by a goober, is going to need crews.
http://www.habitat.org/
YuanZhideDiZhen
09-02-2005, 06:29 AM
Sorry dude, still doesn't make sense. Just because a person is hot, tired, hungy, p!ssed off and standing in sh!t, dosn't mean they can kill someone. I don't care how you word it, but you don't forcefully board a boat in "defense".
ah, you're probably thinking in terms of neighbor to neighbor. in which case you'd be correct. but we're not talking about neighbor-to-neighbor: we're talking about professional aid givers, civil service personell like police and rescue who boated in with guns for a ride around the the area and forcibly restrained people from getting on board and refusing to render assistance, which is thier job. as municipal employees their duty is to render assistance. negligence would be the minor offense. they could be found to have provoked the situation if they are from a predominantly white precinct not from the general service area of new orleans, but from a nearby parrish. there is a case where this kind of event occurred in LA once in the past...where a rescue team of predominantly cajuns went into a devastated flood area and provoked the predominantly black refugees and refused to render assistance. they were found guilty of dereliction of thier duty to render aid and comfort and contributing to life threatening health factors. which amounted to twelve years.
YuanZhideDiZhen
09-02-2005, 06:43 AM
YuanZhideDiZhen
I posted the link but I guess you didn't read it.
"Elsewhere in New Orleans, gunshots repeatedly rang out and fires flared as looters broke into stores, houses, hospitals and office buildings -- some in search of food, others looking for anything of value.
Two hospitals were under siege by robbers who used axes, guns and metal pipes to steal pain killers and medicine, according to a pilot flying relief operations into New Orleans."
was that cnn? they have a habbit of reporting rumors that (usually) turn out to be false. any other news group and you're generally okay. but when the heat is on cnn always pops a whopper. remember news networks aren't the be-all, end-all of fact: they are gossip mongors whom generally try to keep a lid on thier game. slower to report news groups are generally more accurate to fact.
but you know, it is a lawless situation. wierd sh!t will happen. not everyone will see or hear everything. i watched several channels and never heard a thing about your post.
last night i did see a cop with a shotgun make a guy carrying food drop it in the street. which is wierd: Louisiana has a Napoleonic Code of Laws (which means might equals right and possession is 99.99 percent of the law). of course, the cop was white and the guy black. (racism is still a factor in Louisiana at large and in civil service providers as a whole.) and there was a camera nearby...
TaiChiBob
09-02-2005, 07:20 AM
Greetings..
This is a national disgrace.. 48 hours after the hurricane hit, when the waters began to rise.. there was no organized relief effort.. too much red-tape..
3 days after, TV cameras pan the sky over N.O. and only 1 chopper.. there should have been hundreds delivering food and water and taking out survivors.. AND, there are NO valid excuses.. we fly hundreds of chopper sorties in Iraq daily under fire.. the vacationing "Keebler Elf" we call a president could have made it so, he failed to act as a leader.. YES, i am bitter and in utter disbelief that we can watch our brothers and sisters dying right before our eyes and listen to every imaginable excuse..
To the hundreds and thousands of relief providers, you have my deepest respect and a healthy chunck of my money.. i live in Orlando, we had nothing near the situation of N.O. last year, but.. just from that experience i can conceptualize the fears that drive the chaos..
There is no excuse for this situation.. and, it could happen again next week, the hurricane season is just heating up.. and, suppose terrorists take advantage of our confusion and make a major move.. What we have is clear evidence that the Government is NOT prepared to weather a serious threat, natural or otherwise.. Accountability is demanded!
Do not rebuild that disaster.. make it a memorial to the unfortunate, and a reminder that preparedness is not a "city in Iraq"..
Be well..
David Jamieson
09-02-2005, 07:29 AM
I agree with Bob.
Chief Fox
09-02-2005, 08:24 AM
I'm beginning to loose faith in our government.
Ou Ji
09-02-2005, 08:38 AM
YuanZhideDiZhen
It was Yahoo News posting a report from Reuters. But then, you have already proven youself to be flake troll who consistently opposes whatever is being said.
Chief Fox
Beginning to lose faith? I haven't had faith since JFK. And every time I think it can't get any worse we elect a bigger goober than the last one. Just wait until Ms. Clinton has her day.
Royal Dragon
09-02-2005, 09:03 AM
I have been watching this, and discussing it with freinds, and right now, I'm at a point where i am speachless.......
we have military forces here, in bases around the country that could have been instantly converted to perform rescue and survival operations INSTANTLY!!
And yes, the redundancy was intentional.
This is just sickening!
fa_jing
09-02-2005, 09:24 AM
People in the refugee's destination towns are buying up small arms -- to defend themselves against the refugees. One of our employees based nearby talked of going to buy a gun for his wife to take around in the car, and had to wait 3 hours there was so much demand for guns, even though the place he bought it is a gigantic gun shop.
Think they knocked over any gun stores in N.O.? I wonder if there are thousands of escaped convicts running around with guns now.
Fallout
09-02-2005, 09:39 AM
You people just don't get it. The citizens are murderous right now. If you are so intent on helping, then buy a boat, drive down there, and boat yourself around the city delivering food. See how long you last. These people aren't going to politely accept some food and water. They are going to beat you to death and take the entire boat, then hoard the food. That's what's already happening.
And your mad at the rescuers? Sure it's their job to help people, but it's not their job to put their life in danger for thugs that attack them. The rescuers are human beings too and have a right to stay away from an angry mob.
It is chaos in the city. Piolets tried to land a helicopter to deliver food/water. But hundreds of people come runnign as a mob, so they ahve to take off to escape. They try to land several times. They are putting their LIVES on the line to help these angry mobs. They end up having to just throw the food out to the mob while they are airborne. Can you imagine if they hand landed? people would be beating each other to death for a ride out on the chopper.
Are all the people in new orleans thugs? I hope not. But when there is a mob, everyone in that mob is equally responsible for the crimes they commit.
Fallout
09-02-2005, 09:44 AM
Some of you think that if a person is a police officer or soldier they have forieted their right to maintain their own personal safety. Until I see you down there personally handing out food, don't say sh1t. Of course i wouldnt' reccomend going down there to hand out supplies.
PangQuan
09-02-2005, 09:52 AM
I have family that lives in NO. Fortunately they were smart enought to leave while they still could.
My money goes to them.
TaiChiBob
09-02-2005, 09:55 AM
Greetings..
Fallout: The reason people have resorted to primal behavior is that they have received no help.. they are doing whatever they can to stay alive.. rational thought went away with the hope for help..
YET, Americans will risk their lives for people in Iraq, but not their own citizens.. there is a great disparity, here............
Be well..
Fallout
09-02-2005, 10:00 AM
Maybe you didn't read the stories. People were helping, but unfortunatly they are dead now.
Fallout
09-02-2005, 10:07 AM
I agree that Iraq sucks. Don't get me wrong, I think we should have never gone. We've wasted billions trying to help the Iraqi people, but their lives have not been improved.
One of the main reasons supplies can't be redily delivered is becuase of the refugees themselves. They shoot cars, helicopters, everything. They mob attack anyone trying to deliver food. They are making it difficult forthemselves. The red cross and FEMA cannot go into the city becuase they will die if they do.
This is why they are putting in national guard armed with machine guns instead of red cross armed with band-aids.
TaiChiBob
09-02-2005, 11:04 AM
Greetings..
People were helping, but unfortunatly they are dead now. I haven't seen a a story where any of the relief personnel have died by refugee violence..
Again.. the Gov't can wage a pointless war built on deception in Iraq.. a war for "helping Iraq's people".. and the same Gov't can't figure out how to help its own citizens? If there had been aid in the first 48 hours there's a liklihood that there would be far less violence today.. air-drop basic supplies to start the process.. there has been report after report of trucks and vehicles just passing by the desperate refugees.. they have no way of knowing what's going on, no TV, radio, phone.. they only know they have very little time left and the aid is simply passing them by.. with all our evolved resources, surely we can drop enough supplies to ease the tensions.. to give them hope.. this is day 4, put yourself in their mind-set, your family is dying, you are dying and no one is stopping to help.. and, if they do, it's only to tell them that help is on the way.. those people cannot feed themselves with hope that seems to never materialize..
Be well..
TaiChiBob
09-02-2005, 11:07 AM
Greetings..
Is our Gov't more afraid to help its own people in a tense situation than it is to wage war for foreign peoples? How sad is that!!!
Be well..
mantis108
09-02-2005, 11:09 AM
I think TCB is onto something important here. Why would the Americans have no problem "helping" Iraqis by occupying their country to rebuild it in the American model; meanwhile, Americans will enforce martial law on other Americans (the less unfortunate ones). How can Americans expect the future Iraq to have a better life after this obvious failure to care for its own people from a model of so-call democrating society and super power? Is that divine design or "justice" (that some might associate this with) at work or what?
This catastrophe is in my mind a major sign that the USA is maxing out on resources both human and material wise. What's worst is the Bush Administration is like an animal that's only interested in saving its own fur and it's own kind. This is really sad to see such an incompetant government in office running a "super power". I suppose God totally won this round and the super power state zero. The state of USA as a super power really is put to the test. How much more mistakes can it make before it totally collapses?
Be well and be prepared, my American friends.
Mantis108
Fallout
09-02-2005, 11:37 AM
I totally agree with you guys on Iraq. No arguments there. But we really didn't go to "help Iraqi people". That's just a political justification. We went because we saw Iraq as a threat and we took it out. I don think the Iraq war has reduced terrorist threat or helped the Iraqi people. It's been a fruitless war no matter what the reason for going was.
And again, yes helpers HAVE died by the hands of refugees. A bus driver who was going there to help people was mobbed by hudreds of people and beaten to death. You wonder why the police keep on driving? Becuase if they stop people start banging on your vehichle wanting a ride. Then they start fighting each other to see who gets the ride out of town. Then you have people killing each other for that vehicle. It's like the new Tom Cruise alien invasion movie when everyone mobs his car, and a guy gets shot to death.
It's the same with the choppers. The couldnt' even land.
TaiChiBob
09-02-2005, 11:39 AM
Greetings..
Humble bows to mantis108.. wisdom worth considering..
The US has failed to establish control on foreign soil and on its home soil.. cooperation is better than "control".. Aid will win their hearts, bullets and force will find its way back to us..
Be well..
Fallout
09-02-2005, 11:43 AM
And the soldiers purpose is different in Iraq. They are there to shoot insurgents. They are not supposed to shoot civilians, but many get shot anyway. It's mostly overlooked that 100's of thosuands of Iraqi civilians have died. We've lost 1800, but that is really nothing. We are not losing the Iraq war in lives lost. In fact we are kicking serious butt. We are however losing in the "keep things under control" game.
However if soldiers open fire in New Orleans there will be a huge stink about it in the media. It will be "soldiers slaughter unarmed refugees". Already some national guards men have been attacked and one has been shot in the leg, and another refugee tried to wrestle away a guardsmen's rifle, but was then arrested. The national guardsmen have so far shown alot of restraint. People fear several hundred guys with machine guns, so they are a little more orderly when food is being given.
Ou Ji
09-02-2005, 11:47 AM
"and had to wait 3 hours there was so much demand for guns"
This is why crazies like me get what's needed before hand. Sh!t can go down anytime and I'm ready to go, no fuss no muss. Properly stocked cabinets and closets are all you need.
And the reason why the US can go into Iraq to help them but not help their own is because THEY DIDN'T GO INTO IRAQ TO HELP THEM.
They can't help the disaster area, they only know how to invade and conquer.
Just watch. It will get worse then troops will go in to restore order. They like to practice those types of invasions.
Fallout
09-02-2005, 11:51 AM
I guess to sum up all my posts:
Don't blame police, soldiers, volunteers, doctors, and others for not stopping their cars, landing their helicopters, or distributing food. In this situation you need several hundred guys with machine guns to safely distribute food, and bus people out of the city.
TaiChiBob
09-02-2005, 12:26 PM
Greetings..
In this situation you need several hundred guys with machine guns to safely distribute food, and bus people out of the city. Only because they dropped the ball early in the game.. and, i think we have the resources to do this immediately.. more doing/less talking.. the military should have been on-site late Tues. early Wed. .. no excuses!!!!
AND, what message does this send to thugs in other inner city situations.. that law enforcement is unprepared for civil unrest.. its an empowering message to gangs and thugs.. and it tells the decent citizens that they're pretty much on their own.. this is a public relations nightmare...
Be well..
MasterKiller
09-02-2005, 12:35 PM
Anyone watch BBC coverage of this event?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/
click the "Bush vows to step up Katrina aid" link. Heart-breaking video you'll never see on American corporate-owned media stations.
Fallout
09-02-2005, 12:48 PM
There are disasters all over the world. Refugees in Africa who are starving accept aid and are very appreciative of the men who risk their lives flying out choppers to them. Flying choppers in a war torn area is not safe, they are very vulernable to rocket propelled gernades. But those guys safely land their choppers and refugees don't kill the piolet. They thank the piolet and realize he risked his life for them and there will be more piolets to bring more food later.
The refugess in New Orleans are burning their bridges. They are not respectful of the people who come to help them. Many of the citizens there are cursing the national guard for not being their earlier. It wasn't the soldiers decision to wait several days. The individual soldiers dont' have the authority to make deployment decisions. Show some respect to the men risking their lives to save you.
I'm mad at Bush for putting our manpower in Iraq. I'm mad at the government for not putting the national guard in sooner. But i'm also mad at the refugees themselves. If your a citizen, your blameless. If your a soldier, everythings your fault.
TaiChiBob
09-02-2005, 01:07 PM
Greetings..
No one is suggesting that the victims are blameless.. only that there are contributing factors such as the lack of leadership and command decisions.. and, now we pay the price, establish order, save those that want to be saved and let nature reap those that won't get with the program.. i have the highest regard for the individuals that are there helping.. and little regard for those that let it get this far..
What we need and deserve is accountability.. and a mandate for immediate planning for the next event.. not some long study and committee BS.. national stockpiles, military distribution systems, and rapid response teams.. someone commented about constitutional restrictions for military involvement.. The founding fathers would hang those that would use such an excuse, the Constitution was never intended to prevent humanitarian aid from saving American lives.. Our Politically Correct society will correct itself out of existence if we're not careful..
Be well..
Ou Ji
09-02-2005, 01:17 PM
FYI it's pilot, not piolet. Not a jab at you, just helping.
I don't think anyone is actually blaming the individual troops themselves, except maybe the ones shooting at them. Most here are critizing the ones calling the shots, the decision makers that try to hold onto the funds and get away with as little as possible. They seem to prefer spending the money on getting what they want more than helping their countrymen.
Somehow there's no end to resources if they want to invade a country. Fighter jets can scramble when needed unless a couple of planes get hijacked and the general (expendable) public is threatened.
Ok, time to cool off. Blood is boiling.
Cooler heads will prevail and as usual help will come from the ranks when they see it's up to them to do something. Forget the dunderheads running the country.
mantis108
09-02-2005, 02:14 PM
I don't think anyone is blaming the military or law enforcement officiers. They are limbs that follows the commands of the brain (political machine).
The problem really is the ignorance of the present Administration IMHO. In the Clinton era, there are no less potential disasters both human and natural. Remember the millenium bug? It was treated with so much attention that it went without a hitch. If I am not mistaken, the effect of that actually helped when the 911 attack hits one of the most important financial centers of the world. So financial infrustructure was shaken but not stirred. The western world didn't quite suffer the impact tha the AQ terrorist and its supporters anticipated. The economy went on to do business as usual. But look at the impact of this incident on the economy, this is going to have a ripple effects if not the immediate impact already taking its toll. Hurricane in the gulf area is not a new thing. Yet, oli refinaries are concentrated there? No one (in previous and present Administrations) has the foresight to tell that could seriously handicap energy policy and subsequently and most importantly the economy? What kind of leader leads from behind or in a private ranch remote controlling things (if that even was happening?) This is like putting all eggs in one basket and hope or in Mr Bush motto "pray" that nothing bad and only good will happen.
Once again, I think TCB is right again about the people who are stuck in a place where they were left alone and let down by the government. The message all along was clear to them that they should do whatever they can to fend for themselves. They were not give consideration at all even now. Honestly, they would not be the vulernables element of the society if they have the ability to fend for themselves. This is why you have the government to lead and to aid the needy (or at least one in a civilizated world should be) not to whup azz (sorry pun). It is sad that elitism and slave owner mentality (the suppressed and enslaved weaker kind fought back in desperate cry for help) is still pretty much alive in a democratic super power or at least it is preceived. It is not only a shame in Amerian history but also a major black eye on humanity anthropologically.
The human and economic lost during the Bush Administration (a reflection of Republican reigem and mindset - not that it's wrong) seems more and more likely to root away the stable foundation of a great nation.
Mantis108
PS TaiChiBob, I think we are pretty much on the same page, my friend. :)
Fallout
09-02-2005, 02:29 PM
Also people are finding a way to blame whites for this. The hurricane did this, not whites. Whites are risking their lives to save blacks right now.
Liokault
09-02-2005, 03:03 PM
Also people are finding a way to blame whites for this. The hurricane did this, not whites. Whites are risking their lives to save blacks right now.
Odd that you look at it that way.
Why is it that the whites are in a position to do the saving, while blacks are in a position that they need saving from?
money?
apathy?
Why has America turned down UN aid?
Chief Fox
09-02-2005, 03:07 PM
Also people are finding a way to blame whites for this. The hurricane did this, not whites. Whites are risking their lives to save blacks right now.
I don't think anyone is blaming whites. But it certainly does look like the poor black population of a major US city has been abandoned by their government and left for dead.
Taking political snipes in the midst of a national emergency strikes me as repulsive in the extreme. Yeah, encouraging division will sure help everyone out, won't it?
themeecer
09-02-2005, 03:49 PM
I have seen it all. You are blaming the hurricane on Bush?!?! Do you think your god, mother nature, waited till a Republican was in office in order to hit an area that has a history of hurricanes? What a pathetic group of people. You have to politicize everything. But guess what .. you’re not the only ones stooping to this level. Read this excerpt I found on AOL’s reporting of this story:
With a cigar-chomping general in the convoy's lead vehicle, the trucks rolled through muddy water up to their axles to reach the convention center, where 15,000 to 20,000 hungry and desperate refugees had taken shelter - many of them seething with anger so intense that it seemed ready to erupt in violence at any moment.
National Guardsmen carrying rifles and wearing camouflage gear also arrived at the Louisiana Superdome, walking in a long line past a vast crowd of bedraggled people fanning themselves miserably in the heat, waited to rescued from the heat, the filth and the gagging stench inside the stadium.
Flatbed trucks carried huge crates, pallets and bags of relief supplies. Soldiers sat in the backs of open-top trucks, their rifles pointing skyward.
Please tell me you can see the bias in this. Please don’t tell me you are that blind.
The officials begged people to leave. Thousands did leave. The federal government went in there from the first minute, in fact in advance. The looters and shooters are hindering their efforts. But you choose to criticize the ones trying to help instead of the criminals preventing the help?
Did I actually see someone call what the looters were doing were simply taking abandoned TVs?!?! So tell me … if you leave your home for a week’s vacation and someone breaks into your home and steal your TV, weren’t they simply taking an abandoned TV? That is pathetic.
themeecer
09-02-2005, 03:52 PM
Odd that you look at it that way.
Why is it that the whites are in a position to do the saving, while blacks are in a position that they need saving from?
money?
apathy?
Why has America turned down UN aid?
What a slap in the face of the workers. I see all colors of workers in the pictures of relief efforts. Take your racism elsewhere.
Ou Ji
09-02-2005, 04:00 PM
WTF?????
I don't recall reading where anyone blamed the hurricane on Bush. Methinks themeecer is reading something into the posts that aren't there.
(although some might think retribution is coming for our wicked ways)
All who worship Gaia raise your hands. Hmmm, thought so.
Ok, I admit it. I'm blind, point out the bias. WFT are you talking about?
themeecer
09-02-2005, 04:20 PM
WTF?????
I don't recall reading where anyone blamed the hurricane on Bush. Methinks themeecer is reading something into the posts that aren't there.
(although some might think retribution is coming for our wicked ways)
All who worship Gaia raise your hands. Hmmm, thought so.
Ok, I admit it. I'm blind, point out the bias. WFT are you talking about?
Read the posts a little closer, or let me help you out some:
What we have is clear evidence that the Government is NOT prepared to weather a serious threat, natural or otherwise.. Accountability is demanded!
__________________________________________________ ________
Do not rebuild that disaster.. make it a memorial to the unfortunate, and a reminder that preparedness is not a "city in Iraq"..
__________________________________________________ _______
I'm beginning to loose faith in our government.
__________________________________________________ _______
we have military forces here, in bases around the country that could have been instantly converted to perform rescue and survival operations INSTANTLY!!
__________________________________________________ _______
YET, Americans will risk their lives for people in Iraq, but not their own citizens.. there is a great disparity, here
__________________________________________________ _______
the Gov't can wage a pointless war built on deception in Iraq.. a war for "helping Iraq's people".. and the same Gov't can't figure out how to help its own citizens?
__________________________________________________ _______
Is our Gov't more afraid to help its own people in a tense situation than it is to wage war for foreign peoples? How sad is that!!!
__________________________________________________ _______
Why would the Americans have no problem "helping" Iraqis by occupying their country to rebuild it in the American model; meanwhile, Americans will enforce martial law on other Americans (the less unfortunate ones). ……This catastrophe is in my mind a major sign that the USA is maxing out on resources both human and material wise. What's worst is the Bush Administration is like an animal that's only interested in saving its own fur and it's own kind. This is really sad to see such an incompetant government in office running a "super power".
__________________________________________________ _______
The US has failed to establish control on foreign soil and on its home soil.. cooperation is better than "control".. Aid will win their hearts, bullets and force will find its way back to us..
PangQuan
09-02-2005, 04:33 PM
In those quotes I fail to see the actual mentioning of bush as an individual anywhere. The word government and bush administration is used, but last time i checked george bush is not the government....
just being literal :)
in addition, no one actually blamed the natural act of a hurricane on bush. thats just silly. the government is being held acountable for their failure to act in this time of crisis, yes. There is a very distinguished line between the two...
themeecer
09-02-2005, 05:08 PM
In those quotes I fail to see the actual mentioning of bush as an individual anywhere. The word government and bush administration is used, but last time i checked george bush is not the government....
just being literal :)
in addition, no one actually blamed the natural act of a hurricane on bush. thats just silly. the government is being held acountable for their failure to act in this time of crisis, yes. There is a very distinguished line between the two...
Please, you don't think an attack on the 'bush administration' or the 'government' has anything to do with President Bush?
And the comment of him being blamed for the hurricane was humor. Let me say it in other terms, you are politicizing the relief efforts and blaming the current administration, who Bush is the head of, for not acting in ways you feel is appropriate. In your arguments you also pull in the Iraqi war and our soldiers. I am just waiting for the liberal mantra of "Haliburton" or "No blood for oil" to circulate this thread.
Seems that Cindy Sheehan is saying this is all President Bush's fault as well, insisting that the president is "[now] heading to Louisiana to see the devastation that his environmental policies and his killing policies have caused."
PangQuan
09-02-2005, 05:26 PM
Please, you don't think an attack on the 'bush administration' or the 'government' has anything to do with President Bush?
And the comment of him being blamed for the hurricane was humor. Let me say it in other terms, you are politicizing the relief efforts and blaming the current administration, who Bush is the head of, for not acting in ways you feel is appropriate. In your arguments you also pull in the Iraqi war and our soldiers. I am just waiting for the liberal mantra of "Haliburton" or "No blood for oil" to circulate this thread.
Seems that Cindy Sheehan is saying this is all President Bush's fault as well, insisting that the president is "[now] heading to Louisiana to see the devastation that his environmental policies and his killing policies have caused."
lol, find in this thread a post other than the one that is directly above this where i am political in any way.
SimonM
09-02-2005, 05:42 PM
I have seen it all. You are blaming the hurricane on Bush?!?! Do you think your god, mother nature, waited till a Republican was in office in order to hit an area that has a history of hurricanes? What a pathetic group of people. You have to politicize everything.
No themeecer. Nobody is saying Bush caused the hurricane. What they are saying is that this unskilled leader was unprepared to respond to a national emergency on home soil.
Furthermore they have suggested that the president's expansionist foreign policy has stripped valuable resources away from the country which could have otherwise been used to help.
They are also questioning why their infrastructure is so much more efficient at controling foreign countries than it is in maintaining order within it's borders.
Some people have even <gasp> looked at the class dynamics about who were able to evacuate compared to who were not. In the southern USA class dynamics inevitably become colour dynamics. It's just a fact: the black population is much less wealthy than the white population.
None of these things is "blaming the hurricane on Bush". Everyone understands that the hurricane would have happened regardless of who is in power. The question is: what did Bush do to deal with the hurricane?
The answer: sat at his ranch cutting up stumps with chainsaws. Other presidents would have been more pro-active. Clinton for instance.
And Zim: the whole "we have an emergency so you can't say anything bad about the status quo" line got old a long time ago.
Ou Ji
09-02-2005, 05:47 PM
Well I, for one, don't play the Republican - Democrat game. I could care less what they call themselves I don't like 'em and I don't trust 'em.
I suspect you're either a republican or governemnt employee. Or maybe a stand up and salute 'my country right or wrong' yes sir you can have my rights sir let me bend over for you sir I can't think for myself so anything the big boss says is fine with me type that typically doesn't see fault in these situations when almost everyone else does.
Yep, that was me be political.
Note: You might want to throw a smiley in there cause I don't think anyone noticed you were joking.
BTW, I just saw on TV where Bush admitted the reponse was slow and insufficient and now he promises to set things right. So there you go. Even the President saw what you didn't. Actually I'm sure it had to be explained to him since he doesn't have the brain cells to understand what happened.
HanRen
09-02-2005, 05:55 PM
the truth is that, rich dudes or middle class dudes they have resources to get out and live some where else, but those poor dudes have no place to go. previous posts mentioned that New Orlean currently is an anarchy state, street gangs are running the show. If Bush dont do nothing, this thing will spread to other areas. It is really hard to imagine such lawless behaviors and chaotic sitution occures in the USA.
PangQuan
09-02-2005, 05:59 PM
i really hate polotics....
but, this is not the first time the bush administration failed to act in the more obviosly correct manner in the face of a major crisis....
thats it, im done. no more polotics for me, i have had my fill and im overflowing with this bullsh!t...
SimonM
09-02-2005, 06:03 PM
The following are excerts from an article on CBC.CA. The entire text can be viewed without my commentary at: http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/09/02/national_guard_katrina20050902.html
National Guard arrives to take control of lawless Louisiana
Last Updated Fri, 02 Sep 2005 20:27:28 EDT
CBC News
Four days after Hurricane Katrina struck, a convoy of U.S. National Guard troops arrived Friday with food, water and weapons. Their mission: to retake the streets and bring relief to the suffering.
<snip>
At the New Orleans Convention Center, some of the thousands of hurricane victims applauded and screamed, "Thank you, Jesus!" as hundreds of soldiers arrived in the increasingly desperate and lawless city.
There was also anger and profane catcalls.
"Hell no, I'm not glad to see them. They should have been here days ago. I ain't glad to see 'em. I'll be glad when 100 buses show up," Michael Levy, 46, told the Associated Press. His words were echoed by those around him yelling, "Hell, yeah! Hell yeah!"
"We've been sleeping on the . . . ground like rats," Levy said. "I say burn this whole . . . city down."
Suffice to say that the population of New Orleans is not entirely satisfied with the relief effort.
The soldiers' arrival came amid criticism from the mayor and others, who said the U.S. government had bungled the relief effort and let people die in the streets for lack of food, water or medicine.
So the meecer, Zim care to take a pot-shot at the mayor of new orleans? Do you want more details? I'll continue.
Thursday night, New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin lashed out at federal officials, telling New Orleans radio station WWL "they don't have a clue what's going on down here." Nagin said he was "****ed" at the lack of help.
Hey, look, according to the meecer's logic Ray Nagin must be a gaia worshipper since he "just blamed the hurricane on Bush". :p
"We authorized $8 billion to go to Iraq, lickety split. After 9/11 we gave the president unprecedented powers, lickety split to help New York and other places," he said. "You mean to tell me that a place where most of your oil is coming through ... that we can't figure out a way to authorize the resources that we need," said Nagin.
Perhaps you can see the reason why Nagin is rightly ****ed with his own government. I can.
Bush said during a tour of ravaged areas of Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama that the recovery would require attention "for a long period of time."
He was blunt in his appraisal of the relief effort in the four days since the storm struck on Monday, saying, "The results are not acceptable."
Even Bush admits his administration dropped the ball on this one. Perhaps extreme right wing ideologues should consider that.
many hurricane victims complained bitterly that they had been forsaken by the U.S. government.
Hey the Meecer: even the hurricane victims seem to be "worshipping mother earth" and here I thought that Christianity was the dominant religious tradition of Louisiana.
Leroy Fouchea, 42, waited in the sweltering heat for an hour to get his ration -- his first proper food since Monday -- and immediately handed it over to a sickly friend.
He then offered to show reporters the dead bodies of a man in a wheelchair, a young man who he said he dragged inside just hours earlier, and the limp forms of two infants, one just four months old, the other six months old.
"They died right here, in America, waiting for food," Fouchea said as he walked toward Hall D, where the bodies were put to get them out of the searing heat.
He said people were let die and left without food simply because they were poor and that the evacuation effort earlier concentrated on the French Quarter of the city. "Because that's where the money is," he spat.
A National Guardsman refused entry. "It doesn't need to be seen, it's a make-shift morgue in there," he told a Reuters photographer. "We're not letting anyone in there anymore. If you want to take pictures of dead bodies, go to Iraq."
I doubt even you two would want to attack someone in Leroy Fouchea for his comments. I think (all sarcasm aside) that this last incedent speaks volumes for its self.
Seriously, people are angry with the US government over this and rightly so. This tragedy could not have been averted but it could have been made a hell of a lot less severe if the national guard had been there day one.
I want to turn your attention to a natural disaster that happened in Canada.
It was a few winters back. It was especially cold and all the powerlines in a large section of eastern Ontario and Quebec froze and collapsed. The region was left without electricity. We called it the "triangle of darkness". People died of exposure in their homes others suffocated to death on natural gas when they tried to use gas stoves as make-shift heaters.
Almost immediately the army was called in and started replacing downed powerlines.
Though it was certainly a disaster it was mitigated by the rapid response of the military; not as thugs with guns but just as guys willing to go somewhere a little dangerous (wretchedly cold) to help their fellow man.
This incedent is one of the key reasons that I have a deep and abiding respect for the Canadian forces. Not a shot was fired.
Why did it take the national guard four days to mobilize in Louisiana? Where were they when the evacuation of New Orleans began? That is when they SHOULD have arrived.
themeecer
09-02-2005, 06:35 PM
"We authorized $8 billion to go to Iraq, lickety split. After 9/11 we gave the president unprecedented powers, lickety split to help New York and other places," he said. "You mean to tell me that a place where most of your oil is coming through ... that we can't figure out a way to authorize the resources that we need," said Nagin.
And they authorized $10.5 billion for relief efforts. We are also spending $500 million dollars a day on hurricane Katrina. So yes, I will take pot shots at the mayor of New Orleans.
And yes President Bush said the results were not acceptable. He stepped in .. saw what had been done and vowed for more relief. This is a little different than the claim that he 'dropped the ball."
President Bush issued rare "advance" emergency declarations for Louisiana and neighboring states, reports CBS News White House Correspondent Peter Maer, and federal agencies were moving relief supplies to areas closer to the storm zone. Thousands of national guard troops are at a staging center in Memphis. A nuclear power plant near New Orleans shut down and the government was monitoring two other facilities.
They were there before the hurricane even hit.
People died .. and that is sad. When people disregard manditory evacuations, this is going to happen. Relief efforts have been coming and more are on the way. Simply living in America isn't going to prevent us from having disasters, no matter which party is in the White House.
YuanZhideDiZhen
09-02-2005, 06:38 PM
I'm beginning to loose faith in our government.
separation of church (and faith) from state. basic premise. also, freedom from religion. i am not nor have ever been a supporter of the aclu and am a conservadox person.
themeecer
09-02-2005, 06:38 PM
The answer: sat at his ranch cutting up stumps with chainsaws. Other presidents would have been more pro-active. Clinton for instance.
Kind of like how he was proactive when he was offered Bin Laden? :rolleyes:
Royal Dragon
09-02-2005, 06:40 PM
Is this a problem of the feds, or the State not following the protocal?
YuanZhideDiZhen
09-02-2005, 06:43 PM
YuanZhideDiZhen
It was Yahoo News posting a report from Reuters. But then, you have already proven youself to be flake troll who consistently opposes whatever is being said.
i saw it on ABC just this evening, so there's your support.
also on that news channel...the 6th precinct of the New Orleans Police was found to have taken refuge in a wal-mart and having looted it for food and supplies. two officers have quit from that precinct.
i just try to present points of view alternate to the majority opinions.
themeecer
09-02-2005, 06:45 PM
separation of church (and faith) from state. basic premise. also, freedom from religion. i am not nor have ever been a supporter of the aclu and am a conservadox person.
Um, you lost me here friend. His use of the word faith was meant in general terms, not as in a 'religious' faith.
Curious to why you are quoting a phrase from a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists promising them that the government would never establish a national denomination. But if that floats your boat then go right ahead. And I don’t support the aclu either.
YuanZhideDiZhen
09-02-2005, 06:57 PM
You people just don't get it. The citizens are murderous right now. If you are so intent on helping, then buy a boat, drive down there, and boat yourself around the city delivering food. See how long you last. These people aren't going to politely accept some food and water. They are going to beat you to death and take the entire boat, then hoard the food. That's what's already happening.
And your mad at the rescuers? Sure it's their job to help people, but it's not their job to put their life in danger for thugs that attack them. The rescuers are human beings too and have a right to stay away from an angry mob.
It is chaos in the city. Piolets tried to land a helicopter to deliver food/water. But hundreds of people come runnign as a mob, so they ahve to take off to escape. They try to land several times. They are putting their LIVES on the line to help these angry mobs. They end up having to just throw the food out to the mob while they are airborne. Can you imagine if they hand landed? people would be beating each other to death for a ride out on the chopper.
Are all the people in new orleans thugs? I hope not. But when there is a mob, everyone in that mob is equally responsible for the crimes they commit.
all of these are good points but there is one factor which remains: who fired the first shot? the first report of gunfire came from fox news. and it was concerning an incident between armed rescuers and victims of the storm. we are talking about an angry mob problem and usually there is some catalyst which turns otherwise peaceful people into a raging firestorm. like being fired upon, if even to be told "to keep your distance", or rather as a warning not to approach the boat. the persistant shootings that are occuring amongst the flood victims most probably are gang related. and i would bet that the people that are still shooting at rescue workers were a part of that first altercation.
an additional report from fox indicated that rescue workers discharged weapons while people were trying to board a boat in one of the projects. low income urban enclaves have their own information dynamics, especially where the law is concerned and shootings occur.
YuanZhideDiZhen
09-02-2005, 07:08 PM
Some of you think that if a person is a police officer or soldier they have forieted their right to maintain their own personal safety.
they don't have a right to discharge thier weapons in city limits unless they fear for thier lives. since the first or second episode i generally agree with you, but until the facts are known about the first and second incidents we should all just kick back and enjoy the dirty laundry and try not to be too judgemental. why don't you sit down with your friends and family and try to reason yourself through an extreemly emotional response such as "the rescue guys won't help us. what do we do now?"
YuanZhideDiZhen
09-02-2005, 07:18 PM
One of the main reasons supplies can't be redily delivered is becuase of the refugees themselves. They shoot cars, helicopters, everything. They mob attack anyone trying to deliver food. They are making it difficult forthemselves. The red cross and FEMA cannot go into the city becuase they will die if they do.
.
hold on a sec. most civil service workers are racist. most civil service workers believe that the lower income groups cause most of the problems. the media is predisposed to believe what the civil service workers tell them. most of you are conditioned to believe what the media tells you without question.
most of the economically disadvantaged have chips on thier shoulders. most have been incarcerated. most don't trust police knowing from experience that they can't be trusted to help someone except when it suits them to not put them in jail. many are farakhan muslims whom preach that there will be a racial economic war that starts durring a catastrophy. and that this kind of event is the sign from god to start the race war and wipe out the whites. who are the guys trying to help them? caucasian rescuers.
YuanZhideDiZhen
09-02-2005, 07:28 PM
Um, you lost me here friend. His use of the word faith was meant in general terms, not as in a 'religious' faith.
Curious to why you are quoting a phrase from a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists promising them that the government would never establish a national denomination. But if that floats your boat then go right ahead. And I don’t support the aclu either.
yeah, i was just poking at chieffox. but nationalism is a kind of state religion. some leaders rule by the 'cult of personality'. stuff like that. i used to have faith in the constitution as the guiding principle of our governance, but no longer.
YuanZhideDiZhen
09-02-2005, 07:31 PM
Greetings..
I haven't seen a a story where any of the relief personnel have died by refugee violence..
Be well..
one was shot and killed at the stadium. less than a day later one also at the convention center.
themeecer
09-02-2005, 07:33 PM
You know, I need to apologize. I was arguing that some posters in this thread were politicizing this disaster. I pressed the issue. In doing so I was contributing to politicizing this disaster. So unless I see something really tastey for me to reply to, regarding this issue, I am going to back off some.
I am wondering how my buddy is faring down there, Shaolinarab. He evacuated early, I believe.
Royal Dragon
09-02-2005, 07:36 PM
many are farakhan muslims whom preach that there will be a racial economic war that starts durring a catastrophy. and that this kind of event is the sign from god to start the race war and wipe out the whites. who are the guys trying to help them? caucasian rescuers.
Reply]
Am I missing something here? Whites are HELPING blacks, and that is racial? There is something wrong becasue Whites are HELPING? That is seen as bad and the start of a race war? Help = war? White help = race war?
It's well known on this board that I'm not too bright sometimes, but I just don't see how race is even remotely an issue here. And if it is, clearly it's god who sent the storm on the poor black community, Whites are trying to help. God clearly is the racists here, not us, we are helping.
YuanZhideDiZhen
09-02-2005, 07:37 PM
I suppose God totally won this round and the super power state zero. Yep.
The state of USA as a super power really is put to the test. How much more mistakes can it make before it totally collapses?
Be well and be prepared, my American friends.
Mantis108
all the government has to do now is not enforce its laws in the defense of it's citizens or be proved to have violated the trust of an important citizen and the document can be found to be inadequate.
Kind of like how he was proactive when he was offered Bin Laden? :rolleyes:
I believe he was using a direct quote from Michael Moore. SimonM's just another preachy Canuck with a hockey stick up his butt. A contemptuous piffle. No worries.
YuanZhideDiZhen
09-02-2005, 08:02 PM
many are farakhan muslims whom preach that there will be a racial economic war that starts durring a catastrophy. and that this kind of event is the sign from god to start the race war and wipe out the whites. who are the guys trying to help them? caucasian rescuers.
Reply]
Am I missing something here? Whites are HELPING blacks, and that is racial? There is something wrong becasue Whites are HELPING? That is seen as bad and the start of a race war? Help = war? White help = race war?
It's well known on this board that I'm not too bright sometimes, but I just don't see how race is even remotely an issue here. And if it is, clearly it's god who sent the storm on the poor black community, Whites are trying to help. God clearly is the racists here, not us, we are helping.
yeah, but that's part of what nation of islam teaches.
I'm a statistics person. the general statements i made about different groups of people are generally statistically true for two thirds of the people in those groups. they are not stereo types, but rather statements of percieved truth backed by statistical analysis of surveys and thier cataloged responses. also, rescue workers tend to be of an economic grade higher in standard of living compared to the bulk of people serviced. despite what you think about our fine republic we are an elitist nation.
oh, and, uh, God is a racist. he chose the hebrew speakers as his people. and everybody else wants in on the benefits of having a divine being kicking a55 for you without having to take on the responsibility required. sounds totally greek to me. :rolleyes: I am not a racist but have heard neo nazi's refer to the covenant of abraham and god as being the desire of all people not a part of that tradition. because they are not a part of that tradition, or not allowed, is why they hate.
nation of islam hates because it is part of thier ontology: thier belief in the world order as created by god that all the troubles of the world are created by whites. they tend to refer to whites as 'white devils'. thier apocalypse is full of images of the white devils comming as 'armed rescuers' in thier apocalyptic visions.
Royal Dragon
09-02-2005, 09:19 PM
That is so ****ed up it' ain't even funny!
SimonM
09-02-2005, 10:09 PM
I believe he was using a direct quote from Michael Moore. SimonM's just another preachy Canuck with a hockey stick up his butt. A contemptuous piffle. No worries.
Actually I came up with that on my own after reflecting on some footage I saw on the Daily show yesterday. And Zim, I know it's hard, but try to avoid personal attacks. They don't help your case one bit.
FuXnDajenariht
09-02-2005, 11:27 PM
how did a traditionally southern baptist region turn into a bunch of muslim fundamentalists?
Ou Ji
09-03-2005, 07:09 AM
And thus spoke YuanZhideDiZhen "many are farakhan muslims" and lo all the southern baptists of the land became muslim fundamentalists. And he looked upon the straw man he created and said it was good.
woot woot nik nik hut hut hut springtime
Crackpot meter going off the scale sir!
David Jamieson
09-03-2005, 07:35 AM
I'm surprised at how many american media outlets are calling the people who are affected by the hurricaine "refugees".
WTF? I thought they were americans. Now they are refugess in their own country?
Refugee has a negative conotation associated with it. It is also indicative of non residents of a country.
The time it took to get the appropriate aid lines in is unacceptable. Even W knows that.
Out of 1.2 million residents of the city, the amount of people who are doing the desperation crimes and what not are relatively small in comparison. I don't understand why so many are so quick to blanket the whole city as thugs and looters. These types will appear regardless and shoulod be dealt with by the local law enforcement.
I guess this has shown to be yet more hysteria on the part of americans and the media they receive.
It really is a disgrace how it's being handled. The track needs to be straightened out now and fast.
I have heard heartening stories.
The coast guards were airlifting people from rooftops continuosly.
The doctors were working without power and water for several days.
The helicopters transported the patients first on the hospital rooftops.
And the doctors and nurses were evacuated last.
I have a few aquaintences working at Tulane Univ hospital.
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Neighbors helping neighbors. Food and water and medic people from nearby towns are arriving before the state or federal helps.
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Prayers go to all the family that are waiting to be helped.
Prayers also go to the medic and guardsmen that are rendering assistance on the flooded areas.
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I used to live in the area for 5 years. I have friends in the area, too.
I used to drive to a Cajun fishing village to buy a dozen of Cajun spiced crabs in season. I get to pick all the female crabs. Sometimes, I only had to pay 2.50 $ for them. It was the late 1980.
I frequented the Burbon street for half shelled oysters and beer. I was practicing Chen Tai Ji along with the Jazz player and clowns on the street. And of course, the Mardi Gras, --
Biloxi holds the Miss teen USA annual pageant.
Gulfport has the busy port for oil shipping etc.
Mobile has the battleship park and sea food.
--
It is sad to see the whole city of N.O. is flooded.
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:(
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Actually I came up with that on my own after reflecting on some footage I saw on the Daily show yesterday. And Zim, I know it's hard, but try to avoid personal attacks. They don't help your case one bit.
Whatever, Chuckles.
Wood Dragon
09-03-2005, 02:21 PM
#1) I'm a native of New Orleans.
#2) New Orleans in particular, and Louisiana in general, is CORRUPT. Not "the Mafia runs the Garbage Company" corrupt....."African warlords stealing UN food and money" corrupt. Nagin got elected because he was the one who played the "victim politics" card hardest.
#3) In the United States, disaster response is primarily the responsibility of local governments, then State, with Federal assistance coming in last (mostly bulk supplies and money). FEMA comes in and coordinates the seperate efforts.
...........in Louisiana, there was NO local or State effort. Nagin refused to use the considerable transport assets he possessed (several hundred school buses), because he would have had to ask Orleans Parish Authority. In other words, expend political capital. He refused to evacuate the hospitals when Acadia Ambulance offered to do it at cost. In other words, he gambled on Katrina turning East. He lost.
The New Orleans Police Department is infamously corrupt and incompetent. It collapsed within 36 hrs. Then the cops began looting.
The Governor, for her part, sat on her ass while New Orleans turned into a scene from Mad Max (only with colored folks). She would not allow the Louisiana Guard (minus the 256th Infantry Brigade, which is in Iraq) into the city under arms, as they would immediately begin shooting looters and gang members. The Adjutant General told her to **** off. So the Guard sat outside the NO city limits.
#4) New Orleans has a massive criminal underclass, with extremely violent gangs. These are black gangs, mostly because 70% of the New Orleans population is black. The NOPD has never been able to seriously challenge these animals. When the cops fell apart and began looting and deserting, the gangs filled the power vacuum. These are the terrorists who are shooting at cops, rescue personnel and Guard helicopters. This nonsense will soon end, as the Guard has now, finally, been ordered (after the President had a come-to-Jesus talk with the Governor, who won't be getting reelected) in to restore order.
Note: a sensitive subject, but a large part of why the Guard was not ordered in sooner has to do with white soldiers shooting black criminals, and how that plays on the news. No sooner had it happened than some retarded "rapper" bleats about how President Bush has ordered the Army to shoot all black people, everywhere. Although the look on Mike Meyers' face during Kanye West's screed was priceless.
Lastly, after view the past 5 days of news footage, anyone who does not own a firearm by Monday is an idiot.
themeecer
09-03-2005, 02:52 PM
Very enlightening post Wood Dragon. Being local I am sure you get a better view of things. Do you have any documentation to your views? I am not doubting them, but I like to have proof before I repeat some of your claims.
Thanks
Wood Dragon
09-03-2005, 05:36 PM
Very enlightening post Wood Dragon. Being local I am sure you get a better view of things. Do you have any documentation to your views? I am not doubting them, but I like to have proof before I repeat some of your claims.
Thanks
Absolutely no documentation at all. Only personal experience with the area, word of mouth from my fellow Guardsmen (Florida), and what I've seen on the News.
edit: to give you an idea of the kind of incompetence we're talking about here:
Knight Ridder Newspapers is reporting that the head of the National Hurricane Center (part of NOAA) had to call Nagin AT HOME Saturday night to plead with him to evacuate the city.
"'I could never sleep if I felt like I didn't do everything that I could to impress upon people the gravity of the situation,'' (National Hurricane Center Director Max) Mayfield said. ``New Orleans is never going to be the same.''
Link: http://www.philly.com/mld/miamiherald/news/special_packages/5min/12505019.htm . Registration required.
Nagin didn't order the evac until the next day (Sunday). Katrina came ashore Monday 0630 local time.
Fallout
09-03-2005, 10:21 PM
If Wood Dragon is correct, this has eliminated a lot of corruption. But at the cost of many innocent lives as well. Routing out evil, gangs, corruption, ect aways hurts the innocent too.
Wood Dragon
09-03-2005, 10:39 PM
If Wood Dragon is correct, this has eliminated a lot of corruption. But at the cost of many innocent lives as well. Routing out evil, gangs, corruption, ect aways hurts the innocent too.
Negative.
The criminals who dont get shot by the Guard or arrested will spread out to other cities, along with the refugees*. Just spreads the problem thinner over larger area.
*-I predict most people will not return to the NO area, even if they do stupidly decide to rebuild a city that is primarily below sea-level. Look for NO to be about the population of Grand Forks, North Dakota.
Wow! What a pile of dung you two are spreading out, just what are you getting at?
It's been , I don't know, 9 days after Bush declared this a National Emergency and they are finally getting things under control, seems like no one was at the wheel for the first couple of days. It really is hard to believe!
Personally, I think they will rebuild the city. Most part of the Nethersland or Holland is below sea level, too.
The port controls the entrance of the mighty Mississippi river into the gulf of Mexico.
The river system goes thru the 'heartlands' of the states.
Things I like about the city.
The zoo hosting a white tiger from India,
The food, clawfishes with Cajun spice on labor day weekend, gumbo, cat fish etc
The river walk along the river of the Mississippi. It is a chain of stores and hotels connected together.
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I was a graduate student in Ole' Miss or medical center in Jackson, MS.
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It took me a while to know the southern accent. I had many students I taught some basic Kung Fu there.
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The music, the King or Elvis Presley was from MS and so is Faith Hill etc. If you are into Jazz, Rock'n roll, country etc.
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The history.
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The movie "Gone with the wind", and the novel by Mark Twain etc.
--
So in the early 90', gambling is still not legal in the Magnolia state or Mississippi. They started to have the "steamboat" off shore or on the river and connected to the land. And yes, there is all you can eat buffet with crab legs etc. It is a casino. So technically, you are out of the state.
And then it took off in the gulf coast, too.
Many of my classmates are doctors in the area, Louisiana, Tennessee, Mississippi, Alabama, Florida etc.
Prayers go to all the people in the area.
SPJ-
Any idea about what kind of/what happened to any biological testing labs in the New Orleans area? It occurs that having a mile-wide petri dish can't be good for anyone, especially if virii were released out into it, mosquitos breed, etc etc
Yes. It will be a monumental task to "clean" up the area.
Sewer, oil, chemical etc contaminations. Bacteria, virus etc.
We will know about the "tasks" from CDC, EPA, USDA. FEMA, red cross etc.
I heard they are "exterminating" all the animals in the area. This raised issues for animal rights people.
The whole area will not be "inhabitable" for a while.
:(
Wood Dragon
09-04-2005, 08:54 AM
.....seems like no one was at the wheel for the first couple of days.
You would be correct in that statement. NO and Louisiana's plan for the Big Easy getting hit was to hope it wouldnt happen in THEIR time in office. Been going on for decades.
The President has limited authority to interfere in the affairs of the Several States. He technically exceeded his mandate when he told Blanco to fish or cut bait two days ago (result: She sent in the Guard.), and then appointed LtGen Honore (a badass who my Division CG in Korea) as Federal coordinator (at the Governors "request").
David Jamieson
09-04-2005, 08:58 AM
methinks the whole "rotten to the core" assessment is a bit skewed.
And as there is zero support for it outside of the hysteria and finger pointing that has ensued, well, i'm gonna let that one go for what it is.
There is crime, organized crime, violent crime in every majour city on the continent across america, across canada.
When disaster strikes, the criminal element sees it as an opportunity. There is no resistance to the threat they pose and they see it as a get rich quick theft spree.
Even regular schmoes, at least some of them take this position as well. To paint N.O as a soddom and gemorrah is weak quite frankly. If disaster strikes anywhere, that ugliness is going to raise it's head period.
It is interesting to see the premise that is forwarded that allows one group of americans to turn on another group of americans.
You guys don't honestly think spreading the seeds and ideas of black gangs and thugs and chaos and corruption (as there will be in any situation like this) is in anyway helping your fellow americans do you?
For shame dudes. I would say it is un-american to regard the situation as such.
Local and State officials were overwhelmed. People have a blasé attitude about the power of a hurricaine. People should now have a better idea of how to be better prepared the next time.
Blaming blacks, or politicians or what have you for a disaster that was caused by nature and then poorly responded to due to many factors, overwhelming shock being key, is just downright an error in thinking. But then, this is not surprise coming from some yanks anyway. :p
Careful that the great nigga horde doesn't trample yer friggin kansas cornfields on their way to take your wimmins. :rolleyes:
freaks.
Wood Dragon
09-04-2005, 09:15 AM
Blah blah blah everyones racist blah blah.
.
Note that I specifically stated that the gangs in question were black because a majority of the NO population is black. It's a demographic accident. Could have been vietnamese or poor white folks from Southie in Boston. The only reason it matters AT ALL is because the Governor didnt want to send in the Guard to restore order because having Soldiers shooting blacks plays a lot worse, politically, than having them shoot whites or hispanics. Especially in Louisiana, where "victim politics" is a varsity sport.
David Jamieson
09-04-2005, 09:23 AM
Note that I specifically stated that the gangs in question were black because a majority of the NO population is black. It's a demographic accident. Could have been vietnamese or poor white folks from Southie in Boston. The only reason it matters AT ALL is because the Governor didnt want to send in the Guard to restore order because having Soldiers shooting blacks plays a lot worse, politically, than having them shoot whites or hispanics. Especially in Louisiana, where "victim politics" is a varsity sport.
If you're going to quote someone, for your own credibilities sake, it is more effective if you do so accurately.
secondly, sending in troops to shoot people in your own country is representative of a problem in leadership and thinking on the situation.
Yes there will be problems in a disaster of this scope. Does the whole problem demand that people be shot?
I don't jibe with this line of thinking.
Has anyone considered that the disaster was so overwhelming that for the most part, a lot of the response mechanisms were virtually destroyed along with everything else?
The blame game is something that came to the for before the rescue missions were under full swing. When one level of response is rendered inadequate, then other levels should be immediate. In the case of N.O, local and state response was implemented at the level they were able to. The sheer size of the problem should have been recognized earlier and responded to accordingly. Instead, we got a lot of hysteria and some crazy supposition.
So I went to a Plantation in Natchez. It was a native American place. They were all gone because the disputes with the Spaniards. There is a museum to remember the site, the village and the people.
There is also a plantation house as a museum. I can only imagine the people working on the cottonfield. It is a manual job. That is why they imported so many workers.
It is no difference that people working on picking apples in Washington, grapes, or strawberry in California or cotton in the south.
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My point was that as economic demands, people will rebuild the city.
The livelihood of so many states and people from Louisiana, to Iowa, Missouri etc is all dependent on it.
Or 2/3 of US agricultural are along the Mississippi river systems.
--
Ou Ji
09-04-2005, 10:09 AM
Corruption runs deeper than the average person thinks. I'm inclined to believe some of it. The official statements were that a lot of cops just weren't reporting for duty. Guess they were busy saving themselves and whatever.
Also, it seem that there have been many studies done over the years analyzing the possible effects of a Cat 4 hurricane on the area. Not only that but FEMA used the area as a test case. Guess they failed.
News reports SHOWED (not hearsay but actual footage) of I guess it was the FEMA director saying (on Friday) they expected it to reach Cat 4 by Monday and then they showed him after the fact claiming they didn't expect it to be that bad. Can't have it both ways.
I expect a lot of finger pointing then the usual sweep it under the rug routine that commonly occurs when our elected official screw up.
Off topic:
bad guy (http://earlyamerica.com/review/2004_summer_fall/scoundrel.htm)
I ran into this link.
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Call for volunteers (https://volunteer.ccrf.hhs.gov/)
We are currently looking for multidisciplinary healthcare professionals and relief personnel with expertise in the following areas:
Administration/Finance Officers
Nursing Assistants/Nursing Support Technicians
Chaplain/Social Worker
Nursing Staff Directors
Clinical Physicians
Patient Transporters/Volunteers
Dentists
Pharmacists
Dieticians
Psychologists
Epidemiologists
Physician's Assistants or Nurse Practitioners
Environmental Health
Physician Chiefs of Staff
Epidemiologists
Respiratory Therapists
Facility Managers
RNs
Housekeepers
Safety Officers
IT/Communications Officers
Security Officers
LPNs
Social Workers
Medical Clerks
Supply Managers
Mental Health Workers
Veterinarians
Per diem and travel covered. Have your shot records ready.
The blame game is something that came to the for before the rescue missions were under full swing. When one level of response is rendered inadequate, then other levels should be immediate. In the case of N.O, local and state response was implemented at the level they were able to. The sheer size of the problem should have been recognized earlier and responded to accordingly. Instead, we got a lot of hysteria and some crazy supposition. Actually, I think its an excellent occasion to open a national dialogue on these matters.
Notably [and horribly] much of the national self-selected black leadership decided to play the race card right off. While its assuredly true that white racism does exist in the USA, so does black racism - and it was on display for all to see. That poverty-stricken divisive self-inflicted double rhetoric has to go. Holding those of different races to different moral standards of responsibilty for behavior has to end. Making excuses for a black politician [Mayor Nagin] when he screws up royally, when you'd pillory a white politician for the same, has to be recognised as racism in its own right.
TaiChiBob
09-04-2005, 11:31 AM
Greetings..
It is appropriate and much needed to call to task the failure of Gov't to respond to this disaster.. we can pretend that everything's okay and let it happen again, OR.. we can make it so hot that it will never happen again..
4 days after the impact there was still no organized presence, the Salvation Army was ahead of the G'ovt..
Tuesday mid-day, the executive office of the federal Gov't should have ordered immediate airlifts of food and water to the area.. we have the means and ability to have made it so by Wed. morning.. This nations leader should have made an executive decision and over-ridden any obstacle to getting basic life sustaining supplies to those unfortunate people.. mobilized every available delivery system (mainly helicopters), staged at public and private distribution centers, written vouchers for commandeered goods, and delivered the goods.. To use red-tape as an excuse to validate this debacle is pathetic..
Gang and race arguements have no place here.. regardless of their race or religion, the people of N.O. were abandoned.. they are people first, our brothers and sisters.. save their lives THEN worry about the rest..
To imply that anyone is blaming anyone for the hurricane is too lame to consider replying to.. it is a natural event.. one that could occur at almost any time.. it could happen again next week.. No, people are demanding accountability for indecision and chaos.. the leader failed to lead.. this is when a leader is needed most, it is when they rise to the task, or stumble.. It must be clear that this must never happen again..
Be well..
MonkeySlap Too
09-04-2005, 12:05 PM
Bob,
The feds can't tell the state government what to do with the national gaurd unless invited to do so. The simple fact is the mayor of New Orleans and the Govenor of LA screwed the pooch BIG time. Both in poor planning, and even worse execution. The feds have taken over - but too late. I would have preferred them to run roughshod over these morons earlier, but I can only imagine the crying that we'd hear then.
Face it - the mayor failed (buses that could have been used top evacuate are under water) and the governor failed to declare martial law until days after the event, unlike Missisippi or Alabama.
The behavior of the people however, is disgusting. Americans seem to have lost any ense of self-responsibility and sense of community, every one cries for a government nanny to take care of them. If you expect the government to take care of you, you get what you deserve.
No, TCB, people did point fingers and they still are. And if the self-selected black leadership [Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, et al.] are going to open the debate on race, then damm it, it's high time we had that talk. No taking it back.
Here's what a lot of people are taking away from the events in New Orleans:
In the face of this disaster the poor and black of New Orleans - for we are incessantly reminded that it was they who were left in the city when the storm came - had an opportunity to show the world who they could be. They had an opportunity to pull together as a community; as a people. They had an opportunity to show that being poor and black does not mean that one has a poor spirit or a black heart. They had the opportunity to, with all the world watching, shatter stereotypes like so many broken windows. They had the opportunity to show that left to their own devices, without the protection or coercion of a larger society, that they would rise to the occasion, care for themselves and others, keep order, and stay strong in the face of hardship.
And they failed.
Now, I don't agree with that - but that's what an awful lot of people are going to think about it: That all their fears about race were justified.
I'm just saying enough's enough & it's time to talk & heal. Don't play that card unless it's true, absolutely 100% true. And, yes, that's exactly why I'm accusing those 'leaders' of it.
Wow Zim, if a lot of people are taking that impression in your country, then you guys are screwed!
The fact is, they all knew that the levees could not endure a force 4 Hurricane, the levees would breech and the city would be flooded, they've known that for several years!
So where was the co-ordination between city, state and federal governments?
From what is quite evident, there was no co-ordination, a complete failure, to blame this on the Mayor or Governor is short-sighted and wrong! Oh, they will get the share of the blame but this was a monumental screw-up!
Wow Zim, if a lot of people are taking that impression in your country, then you guys are screwed!
The fact is, they all knew that the levees could not endure a force 4 Hurricane, the levees would breech and the city would be flooded, they've known that for several years!
So where was the co-ordination between city, state and federal governments?
From what is quite evident, there was no co-ordination, a complete failure, to blame this on the Mayor or Governor is short-sighted and wrong! Oh, they will get the share of the blame but this was a monumental screw-up!
I agree entirely. Both points.
My family is ~30% black, mixed. This is boiled-down & representative of some of the conversations we've had ever since my teenaged half-sister responded to a news report on TV saying 'dam, whitey ain't your savior, b1tch!'
And, like I said, I don't agree with it. I know I'd be out there looting too. My problem is with the leadership, the criminals of course, and to a certain amount with the media.
Fallout
09-04-2005, 01:32 PM
People don't like to take responsibility for their own behavior. When Bill Cosby criticised inner city blacks for poor behavior, people just shouted him down. Being black is a prequesite to speaking out against poor behavior by blacks, and if anyone in politics even suggest that blacks are responsible for their situation and behavior, they will not be elected.
It's time to stop playing the victum, and step and and take responsiblity. Stop relying on other people to bail you out and pay you wel-fare. Stop criticising people who are risking their lives to save you. Stop having sex with 10 different people each month, support your own kids instead of relying on others to pay your wel-fare.
The government is here to govern, not hold your hand, put you in jobs, and make you wealthy. That's up to YOU. Go out there, call companies, send them your resume, get an interview. Don't have college? Get a job, and work your way though college. It's not easy, but people do it. If you want a good job you have to be proactive. Oppurtunity doesn't come to you. You have to come to it.
Or you can just take the easy way out. Join a gang, sell drugs for fast cash. Beat people to an inch of their life and leave them dying in the street. Just don't blame others for your behavior.
Wood Dragon
09-04-2005, 01:48 PM
http://tinypic.com/dc3qlx.jpg
http://www.philly.com/mld/miamiherald/news/special_packages/5min/12505019.htm
TaiChiBob
09-04-2005, 03:59 PM
Greetings..
ZIM: Although i am deeply concerned with the plight of the black people, i am more concerned with a government that uses that plight to its advantage.. to use the situation of poverty and lack of means as justification for the situation where the poor and unfortunate are all that's left in N.O.... When clearly it was known that the city could not withstand a Cat4 storm, and clearly it was inevitable that it would happen.. it didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out you can't evacuate N.O. completely in 48 hours..
The feds can't tell the state government what to do with the national gaurd unless invited to do so. The simple fact is the mayor of New Orleans and the Govenor of LA screwed the pooch BIG time. Both in poor planning, and even worse execution. The feds have taken over - but too late. I would have preferred them to run roughshod over these morons earlier, but I can only imagine the crying that we'd hear then. Here's an old saying for this situation.. "better to ask for forgiveness later than permission now".. that was the direct fault of the national leadership.. none of our laws were so set in stone as to interfere with saving lives in a national emergency.. none of the founding fathers would have supported committees and meetings trying to figure out the proper channels to render aid.. as a people we are ALL responsible for each other, we the people have been so complacent for so long that we don't even realize how much counter-productice BS there is in the simple act of saving lives..
No more than 36-48 hours after impact the president should have called the JCS (Joint Chiefs of Staff) and said "let nothing hinder the delivery of food and water to the survivors in the most expedient manner possible". no governors, no mayors, nobody!! In what twisted fantasy world is it considered okay to watch people die while leaders work out red-tape issues for saving them..
The government is all too ready to let the impoverished stay right where they are, they serve a purpose.. they do the jobs no one else wants to.. Suppose we closed the borders, no immigrants.. suppose we actually raised the standards of minorities, actually educated them and employed them fairly.. who would do the dirty work? It is an orchestrated caste system designed to appear upwardly mobile.. but now, the system is paying for its sins, the bottom of the caste has formed its own government of gangs and organized crime syndicates.. some of the police are as corrupt as the criminals, often forming aliances for profit.. when there is no hope for rising above the poverty level it is reasonable to assume people will find some way to improve their condition.. there is a great gulf between the bottom of the heap and the top of the mountain.. and history is littered with fallen bureaucracies, toppled by the same bottom of the heap.. More value should be placed on the people willing to the "dirty work", a sincere appreciation of their work and the effort they put forth to keep the system functioning.. imagine if the doctors and lawyers and politicians had to cook and clean and fend for themselves.. if they had to clean their own offices and their own toilets.. i think we put too little value on the services we would rather not do..
They had an opportunity to show that being poor and black does not mean that one has a poor spirit or a black heart. They had the opportunity to, with all the world watching, shatter stereotypes like so many broken windows. They had the opportunity to show that left to their own devices, without the protection or coercion of a larger society, that they would rise to the occasion, care for themselves and others, keep order, and stay strong in the face of hardship. Sadly, those same people have spent their lives realizing that that model is reserved for the elite caste.. their idea of "community" is the one in which the system has forced them to fend for themselves.. what we saw in the aftermath of Katrina was people living their experience of "community".. it was the inner city's seething lowest caste showing the world America's embarassing little secret.. it's political slaves.. So, once again, it comes full circle back to the leadership.. Is this nation willing to reward hard work with more than minimum wages (read: sub poverty wages).. i wonder how many CEOs could make it a day on the back of a garbage truck.. maybe the garbage collector can't do the CEO's job, but i don't think the CEO could do his either..
This nation needs leadership that has the vision of unity and prosperity for its people, rather than perpetuating more cogs for the machine.. the machine will reorganize itself in a more productive and efficient manner if given the opportunity.. but, it is constantly maintained as an out-dated model..
"When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary...."
Be well..
Other states helping out.
helping out (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050904/ap_on_re_us/katrina_refugees_hk4_2)
:cool:
themeecer
09-04-2005, 05:10 PM
that was the direct fault of the national leadership.. none of our laws were so set in stone as to interfere with saving lives in a national emergency
So the mayor had nothing to do with it eh? How can he be expected to make such hard choices as using the existing bus system to bus citizens out? But since there is a republican in office, lets blame the national government.
when there is no hope for rising above the poverty level it is reasonable to assume people will find some way to improve their condition
BULL!! Poverty is never a reason to resort to crime, never. Growing up as a small child my family had it very hard. There was many times we didn't know where the next meal was coming from. Sometimes we didn't have heat in the winter and I slept between my parents to keep me from freezing in the night. We put bottled items in the fridge versus the cupboard to prevent them from freezing and bursting. And you know what, never did we have to resort to crime. Heck we didn't even have to go on government assistance. We made do. My parents pulled themselves up from their boot straps and have now built a comfortable life.
Is this nation willing to reward hard work with more than minimum wages (read: sub poverty wages)..
Only if this nation is willing to close many small businesses and eliminate many jobs. This way instead of working for minimum wage these workers will be standing in the unemployment line. While on the subject, where in the constitution does it say that the government owes anyone a job, or a guaranteed rate of pay?
And I am sorry to be attacking your ideas Tai Chi Bob. I have agreed with you in other threads and do respect you for your longevity in our arts.
People don't like to take responsibility for their own behavior. When Bill Cosby criticised inner city blacks for poor behavior, people just shouted him down. Being black is a prequesite to speaking out against poor behavior by blacks, and if anyone in politics even suggest that blacks are responsible for their situation and behavior, they will not be elected.
It's time to stop playing the victum....
Well this isn't simply a 'black' thing. Here in the impoverished Appalachian region we have the same thing happening with all colors. You made some very good points but I hope your argument isn’t taken as simply a condemnation of blacks, because this mindset is wide spread. I don’t think this should be made into a race thing, even though Kanye West would prefer that it is.
Just the other night I was talking to a gal and she asked me what I did for a living; I told her. When I asked her what she did she literally said “I get a check.” I wanted to respond with, “Oh, so how are you enjoying my hard earned money?”
Sadly, those same people have spent their lives realizing that that model is reserved for the elite caste.. their idea of "community" is the one in which the system has forced them to fend for themselves.. what we saw in the aftermath of Katrina was people living their experience of "community".. it was the inner city's seething lowest caste showing the world America's embarassing little secret.. it's political slaves.. No. That's your interpretation of social rot.
Reality: We saw women with kids who had no fathers present for those kids, starving without protection in filth. We saw young, healthy, strong men brutalizing the weak. We saw folks who were strung out & looting pharmacies for a fix. We saw signs for help written by functionally illiterate people. We saw houses burned for no reason in the middle of hell on earth.
Don't make excuses for social pathology, you're doing no one any good. I'll agree with you on this: Something is deeply wrong. Where we part is that I know that black community is a very rich, very close thing in its traditional form. I know those events were a complete betrayal of that community. Making excuses for it increases that betrayal. Unless you're saying they like it that way, which I doubt very much.
Don't get me wrong: I'm sorrier than anything that this rot had to come out then & there, and I'm really sorry that anybody felt they had to play the race card to be listened to. They didn't have to. Being a human being in distress should be enough to merit help, don't you think? I'm also sure there was heroism and self-sacrifice we haven't even begun to hear about yet. That community can show both higher and lower standards than the majority white populace at the same time.
And effin' A, they should've been evacuated earlier. The Governor & Mayor had that responsibility, the funds were available before the storm hit. Mississippi was hit hard too - in fact they caught the eye of Katrina and the entire state was affected - and nobody expected that to happen. But they had plans in place and they got right to 'em. Louisiana did not.
Some newswire just reported that the NATO HQ was requested by the US goverment to help in transport and logistic support in N.O. disaster area in addition to food supplies.
:cool:
FuXnDajenariht
09-04-2005, 07:55 PM
:eek: :( :mad: did this happen in south east asia last year during the tsunami?!
"Police and National Guard troops on Saturday closed down the two centers -- the Superdome arena and the city's convention center -- but then penned in the storm victims outside in sweltering heat to keep them from trying to walk out of the city.
Military helicopters and buses staged a massive evacuation to take away thousands of people who waited in orderly lines in stifling heat outside the flooded convention center.
The refugees, who were waiting to be taken to sports stadiums and other huge shelters across Texas and northern Louisiana, described how the convention center and the Superdome became lawless hellholes beset by rape and murder.
Several residents of the impromptu shantytown recounted two horrific incidents where those charged with keeping people safe had killed them instead.
In one, a young man was run down and then shot by a New Orleans police officer, in another a man seeking help was gunned down by a National Guard soldier, witnesses said.
Police here refused to discuss or confirm either incident. National Guard spokesman Lt. Col Pete Schneider said "I have not heard any information of a weapon being discharged."
"They killed a man here last night," Steve Banka, 28, told Reuters. "A young lady was being raped and stabbed. And the sounds of her screaming got to this man and so he ran out into the street to get help from troops, to try to flag down a passing truck of them, and he jumped up on the truck's windshield and they shot him dead."
Wade Batiste, 48, recounted another tale of horror.
"Last night at 8 p.m. they shot a kid of just 16. He was just crossing the street. They ran him over, the New Orleans police did, and then they got out of the car and shot him in the head," Batiste said.
The young man's body lay in the street by the Convention Center's entrance on Saturday morning, covered in a black blanket, a stream of congealed blood staining the street around him. Nearby his family sat in shock.
A member of that family, Africa Brumfield, 32, confirmed the incident but declined to be quoted about it, saying her family did not wish to discuss it. But she spoke of general conditions here.
"There is rapes going on here. Women cannot go to the bathroom without men. They are raping them and slitting their throats. They keep telling us the buses are coming but they never leave," she said through tears.
People here said there were now 22 bodies of adults and children stored inside the building, but troops guarding the building refused to confirm that and threatened to beat reporters seeking access to the makeshift morgue.
People trying to walk out are forced back at gunpoint - something troops said was for their own safety. "It's sad, but how far do you think they would get," one soldier said.
"They have us living here like animals," said Wvonnette Grace-Jordan, here with five children, the youngest only six weeks old. "We have only had two meals, we have no medicine and now there are thousands of people defecating in the streets. This is wrong. This is the United States of America."
One National Guard soldier who asked not to be named for fear of punishment from his commanding officer said of the lack of medical attention at the center, "They (the Bush administration) care more about Iraq and Afghanistan than here."
The Louisiana National Guard soldier said, "We are doing the best we can with the resources we have, but almost all of our guys are in Iraq."
Across town at the Superdome, where as many as 38,000 refugees camped out until Wednesday night when evacuation buses first came, the 4,000 still there were corralled outside, hoping to get on four waiting buses with seats for only 200.
The scene at the sports stadium was one of abject filth. Crammed into a small area after the building was shut to them last night, those remaining sat amid heaps of garbage, piled in places waist high. The stench of human waste pervaded the interior of the now vacant stadium.
One police officer told Reuters there were 100 people in a makeshift morgue at the Superdome, mostly people who died of heat exhaustion, and that six babies had been born there since last Saturday, when people arrived to take shelter.
At the arena, too, there was much talk of bedlam after dark.
"We found a young girl raped and killed in the bathroom," one National Guard soldier told Reuters. "Then the crowd got the man and they beat him to death."
FuXnDajenariht
09-04-2005, 08:33 PM
Sept. 4) - Katrina may seem like the last word in hurricanes, but there is a very real possibility that another major hurricane may hit New Orleans or some other portion of the 200-mile coastline devastated by Katrina in the weeks to come.
"We're not out of the woods yet," said Susan Cutter, director of the University of South Carolina Hazards Research Laboratory. "We're not even in the height of hurricane season."
A forecast released Friday by meteorologists at Colorado State University calls for six more hurricanes by the time the hurricane season ends on Nov. 30, three of them Category 3 or above. On average, about one major hurricane in three makes landfall in the United States.
"We expect that by the time the 2005 hurricane season is over, we will witness tropical cyclone activity at near record levels," the Colorado State meteorologists wrote.
So far there have been four hurricanes this year -- Katrina, Irene, Emily and Dennis, a Category 3 storm that caused more than $1 billion in damage to the Florida panhandle in July. There have been nine tropical storms.
That puts this season's tropical cyclone activity to date above the average for an entire year, the Colorado State forecast noted. In a more normal year, Mother Nature has produced about a third of her annual allotment of hurricanes and tropical storms by this point in the season.
No major storms currently threaten the U.S. coastline. The latest report from the National Weather Service mentions only Tropical Storm Maria.
"Maria could be near hurricane strength by Sunday," said Jack Beven, a meteorologist at the National Hurricane Center in Miami.
The storm is not currently expected to reach the U.S. mainland.
The number and intensity of hurricanes is largely determined by water temperatures at the sea surface. This year the waters of the tropical Atlantic, Caribbean and Gulf of Mexico are about as warm as they ever get.
If a major hurricane were to make landfall somewhere on the U.S. coast in the next two months, with the situation in Louisiana and Mississippi still demanding such a large portion of the nation's emergency management resources, mounting another relief effort would certainly be more difficult than usual. But as Florida demonstrated when four hurricanes passed through the state in seven weeks last year, repeated storms are not necessarily unmanageable.
"It would be a challenge, but I don't think it would be catastrophic," Cutter said.
And in many respects another hurricane in the area already devastated by Katrina would only add insult to injury.
"It sounds horrible, but it may not be that bad," Cutter said. "The sad thing is that most of the damage has already been done."
But in New Orleans itself, any violent weather threatens to expand the gaping holes that Katrina opened in the city's flood control infrastructure.
"Even a tropical storm I think would wreak havoc," said Joannes Westerink, a civil engineer at the University of Notre Dame who produces computer simulations of storm surges for the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, the Federal Emergency Management Agency and other clients.
Even the daily tidal flows of Lake Pontchartrain threaten to aggravate the conditions left by Hurricane Katrina, he said.
Westerink said he and his colleagues have started working on simulations depicting the effects of a hurricane on the New Orleans levee system in its current state. They expect to have a complete picture in a few days of what another hurricane could do to the city.
New Orleans also remains vulnerable to a Mississippi River flood brought on by heavy rains upstream. But the usual flooding season for the river is spring and early summer."
and i dont see why this is so complicated. the mayor is part of national leadership. N.O. isn't some kind of foreign country. if he doesn't have the resources to protect the people in his state then he its his duty to ask for aid from the feds. if the feds see that the local government is incompetent and that their gonna cause needless deaths they have no choice but to override the mayor or governor or whoever. its not even up for debate. so theres plenty of blame to go around in my opinion. the feds and the local government has to work together to keep us safe. thats their job, thats why we pay taxes to both. its not some kind of ****ing contest. there shouldn't even be an argument about local and national governments. its all part of one ****ing country.
On topic, surprisingly (http://martialartshurricanekatrina.blogspot.com/) :)
Helps from abroad.
global assistence (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/04/katrina.world.aid/index.html)
:cool:
Fallout
09-04-2005, 10:14 PM
It's nice to hear the crowd beat the rapist to death.
SimonM
09-04-2005, 10:53 PM
On the topic of global asistance I have just one thing to say to the USA as a country.
Take Cuba up on it's offer of doctors. Seriously.
Wow, 1,100 docs.
A video clip on recovery in Biloxi.
recovery (http://www.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?url=/video/us/2005/09/05/huntington.katrina.biloxi.cnn)
If a disaster of this nature and magnitude, the areas will be declared a "war zone" and troops taking over and implimenting martial laws in many countries.
The police, firemen, mayor and any civil units and admin will be all coordinated and under the command of the military.
Military transport, medic, supply, engineering, etc will be all on site.
Once some basic structure and order are restored. Then the command and control go back to the local civil units and admin.
:cool:
A side note on the casino on a barge.
In the early 90's, they only have a single story.
Now they have 3 stories buildings on a 500 feet barge!
The barge was swept inland on the ground.
:(
Royal Dragon
09-05-2005, 07:34 AM
I wonder how they are going to get it back in the water?
There is a website for Katrina missing children.
www.missingkids.com
:cool:
This is the lyric from the song entitled "Put a little love in your heart. "
Think of your fellow man
Lend him a helping hand
Put a little love in your heart
You see it's getting late
Oh, please don't hesitate
Put a little love in your heart
And the world will be a better place
And the world will be a better place
For you and me
You just wait and see
Another day goes by
And still the children cry
Put a little love in your heart
If you want the world to know
We won't let hatred grow
Put a little love in your heart
And the world will be a better place
And the world will be a better place
For you and me
You just wait and see, wait and see
Take a good look around
And if you're lookin' down
Put a little love in your heart
And i hope when you decide
Kindness will be your guide
Put a little love in your heart
And the world will be a better place
And the world will be a better place
For you and me
You just wait and see
Put a little love in your heart
Each and every day
Put a little love in your heart
There's got to be a better way
Put a little love in your heart
Don't you think it's time we start
Put a little love in your heart
:cool:
It is one of my favorite song when growing up in the "60.
Watching the news on TV and hearing the stories about the Vietnam conflict, watergate, cultural revolution in China etc.
This was the song that made me go to bed and sleep.
---
MonkeySlap Too
09-05-2005, 08:46 AM
Heh, I just saw the last post, and thought you were talking about 'eve of destruction' - that one always lulled me to sleep...
TaiChiBob
09-05-2005, 09:45 AM
Greetings..
So the mayor had nothing to do with it eh? How can he be expected to make such hard choices as using the existing bus system to bus citizens out? But since there is a republican in office, lets blame the national government. Republican? Democrat? Whig? it doesn't matter.. when the Feds saw that the local and state gov't was overwhelmed, it was their DUTY to intervene, not to sit and watch people dying and excuse themselves by chanting "no one asked us to help.." That is the most inexcusable statement yet... Our leader, GWB, sits in a classroom for 7 minutes after he learns of 911.. indecision.. GWB watches as people beg for help FOR DAYS after Katrina.. indecision.. AND, i don't care what his politics are, he is the "leader of the free world", President of the United States.. and indecisive at the expense of the people.. this is not a partisan issue, it is about character.. i vote for whom i feel will do the best job regardless of politics.. But, it should be noted that the Republican agenda would have this Nation in a theocracy if it could.. but, at least they have an agenda.. the Democrats only complain..
BULL!! Poverty is never a reason to resort to crime, never. Growing up as a small child my family had it very hard. There was many times we didn't know where the next meal was coming from. Sometimes we didn't have heat in the winter and I slept between my parents to keep me from freezing in the night. We put bottled items in the fridge versus the cupboard to prevent them from freezing and bursting. And you know what, never did we have to resort to crime. Heck we didn't even have to go on government assistance. We made do. My parents pulled themselves up from their boot straps and have now built a comfortable life. For your resolve and the wisdom and character of your parents you have my respect.. my story is not so unlike yours, but, i see the reality of the plight of the increasing poverty and hopelessness of some of our citizens.. aside from that, BULL!! If, in some dark bleak time, my children were starving and i had to choose between their lives and a criminal act, like looting.. i choose life.. if you don't, i shame you. How nice of us to sit behind our screens and keyboards and pass judgment on people wading through waist deep toxic soup trying to stay alive.. This is the US, it's not Camelot.. just because someone is able to weasle their way to the presidency (it matters not who, weasling is what they do) it doesn't make them King Aurthur or infallible.. it is our duty as citizens to see past the Office of the Presidency and evaluate the person in it.. GWB has a legacy of deception, elitism and indecision.. to suggest otherwise is to deny the hard evidence.. BUT, truly, that can be resolved later.. now, today, we must act in unison to save the survivors, contain the spread of disease, and intelligently determine the fate of building in such dangerous locations.. to rebuild N.O. would be socially irresponsible and morally deficient.. catastrophe will happen again.
Only if this nation is willing to close many small businesses and eliminate many jobs. This way instead of working for minimum wage these workers will be standing in the unemployment line. While on the subject, where in the constitution does it say that the government owes anyone a job, or a guaranteed rate of pay? "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. " Justice? Work is work, someone breaks their butts for 10-12 hours a day and gets minimum wage, someone else buys and sells the businesses employing those min. wage workers and makes millions.. who better represents the reality of "hard work" (Kung Fu literally means "hard work")? "Insure domestic tranquility"? creating a caste system that promotes social instability seems contrary to that notion, eh? "provide for the common defence"? Yep, we really did a good job there, we defended those flood victims as soon as we figured out who to blame.. "promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity" Now, there are indeed sufficient resources in this country to insure that everyone can eat and sleep securely.. there are social models around the world where such is the case.. personally, i suggest a wage/price range that insures the lowest has resources to live with dignity and the highest is reasonably comfortable and has the incentive to creatively contribute.. but, such opulent disparity as we have with sports, CEO, entertainment, and such can only breed discontent from those living in poverty.. for those whom the system works it is way too inconvenient to fix it so the system works for everyone.. it is much easier to blame the people in poverty for their condition.. it just ain't that simple..
And I am sorry to be attacking your ideas Tai Chi Bob. I have agreed with you in other threads and do respect you for your longevity in our arts. Please do not apologize, this is a dialogue we desperately need.. i have no ill-will in the exchange of insights or philosophies.. and i respect your perspectives.. and i agree with certain aspects.. but, the greatest nation on earth is stumbling in its own homeland and too few are willing to tell the King he has no clothes on.. too many defend the King on partisan lines.. It is time to rebuild this nation on the principles of its founding documents.. Please point out the deficiencies in my concepts, please help us to find some answers.. our future and our kid's futures depends on it..
It is high time to revive the CCC and the WPA.. improve the nation and put people to work at a dignified wage.. no handouts, earn your keep.. on the job training to get people back into the work force.. this nation is in crisis, the opulent lifestyles and poverty should find a balance nearer the middle, its do-able.. a little sacrifice and compassion.. uh-oh, sacrifice? dang, there's the problem.. "i got mine, screw you". Yeah, i'm a little socialist at times.. but, i see past the rhetoric of "socialist evils" and see some potential for a better society.. And, if the following doesn't have socialist overtones, i don't know what does:
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. "
Be well..
TCB: 2 things.
You're wrong about Fed involvement or lack thereof. The administration did try to intervene prior to Katrina's landfall but LA's governor fought that, trying to retain local control, arguing that giving Federal control might allow the Feds to shift blame to the Locals. While they wrestled with that non-problem, they didn't enact their evacuation plans.
You don't have to believe me. Its in the newspapers. Its fact.
WRT CCC & WPA: I'm actually in agreement with you on this, but I fear that if Bush were to do it, the cries of 'fascism' would become very shrill. Since he's in office for the next 3 years, there isn't much point in dreaming of it. So we need alternatives for the nonce.
Ou Ji
09-05-2005, 01:09 PM
Excerpts from a first hand account I receved by email:
"By the time we stopped collecting items for this trip we had over 15,000 pounds of food, clothing, water, and medicine. An amazing job everyone!! However when we got to the affected areas we found that no government or military official wanted to take “control” of the items. They basically told us that they had the job of providing ice and water for a week or two at a time and that’s all they were going to do. We could not believe it! Everyone knew that what we had was needed and needed to be given out, but no one wanted to be in charge of it."
"The Red Cross and the National Guard refused our shipments. It was made clear to us that the Red Cross takes monetary donations to provide emergency assistance only. Meaning that they were there to provide medical assistance and shelter only because they are “first responders”. Now I’m not trying to belittle the Red Cross or tell you not to donate there, but I am saying that you should find out exactly what is going to be provided and where."
Just some food for thought.
TaiChiBob
09-05-2005, 01:48 PM
Greetings..
You're wrong about Fed involvement or lack thereof. The administration did try to intervene prior to Katrina's landfall but LA's governor fought that, trying to retain local control, arguing that giving Federal control might allow the Feds to shift blame to the Locals. While they wrestled with that non-problem, they didn't enact their evacuation plans ZIM: It's not that i don't believe you.. it's the FEDERAL Gov't, the ones with the Army and Air Force.. they don't "try" they simply DO.. let the courts figure it out later, who cares who gets blamed for anything as long as we save our brothers and sisters. What happened "before" the hurricane is not nearly as sinister as what happened afterward.. This is the issue, "Red-Tape kills hundreds in the wake of natural disaster".. Now, the feds will embrace the race debate to deflect the real issues, and most Americans will take the bait.. why did the Feds not take charge? State's Rights disappear when the state cannot protect its citizens, THAT is one of the Fed's responsibilities.. I am at a complete loss as to why anyone cannot grasp the notion that the ball was dropped at every level, it became a "hot potato" no one wanted to hold onto..
Be well..
FuXnDajenariht
09-05-2005, 02:01 PM
Greetings..
"..........."We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. "
Be well..
amen to that.....your a god**** speech writer Bob...you know thats all you really need nowadays to run for office. :D
even tho...in our presidents "defense". our constitution didn't really mean **** until about the 50's or 60's after the civil/equal rights movement really took off. since actions speak louder than words, our history before that reads like a long f-ed up story about hate....inequality.....a large dose of hypocricy.....some opression....etc etc, you get the idea. a few enlightened souls a couple hundred years ago does not a great nation make. dont get me wrong tho, im all for the flag waving dying for my country stuff.... but im jus sayin.
YuanZhideDiZhen
09-05-2005, 02:05 PM
Greetings..
This nation needs leadership that has the vision of unity and prosperity for its people, rather than perpetuating more cogs for the machine.. the machine will reorganize itself in a more productive and efficient manner if given the opportunity.. but, it is constantly maintained as an out-dated model..
"When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary...."
Be well..
there are several very good reasons for having cogs. firstly, it insulates sectors of government. second, it increases government expenditures thereby strengthening the economy.
efficient government models leads to more poverty. there are ms econ theses on this.
the protocols may need to be altered. when has there been an event like this on this scale to deal with? there will probably be some reworking of protocols for FEMA and governors' interactions as well as administrative rectification in whatever type of document Louisiana administrational proceeding is derived. but there are also cultural concerns about time which may have played a part: in louisiana when you say "i'll give you 24 hours for you to respond" means to louisiana people, "tell me your decision tomorow", not "don't make me ask you tomorow", or "you have until tomorow to tell me but i want it as soon as you can".
the governor was not prepared to deal with this problem. her people were not either. I may be innorrect, but i thought the government of Louisiana was essentially fuedal. meaning that the local parrishes had to contact a regional representative before requests could be made to the governor and that it would be inappropriate to jump the order or mobilize where it was not neccessary. the parrishes would have to report thier damages before the governor could respond with aid. this also affects the speed at which the national gaurd and reserves may be called up: these are two organisationally different bodies in terms of who can request thier assitance.
TaiChiBob
09-05-2005, 02:35 PM
Greetings..
YuanZhideDiZhen: In simple terms, the smaller governmental agencies (i.e.: Parrishes, counties, states, etc...) were overwhelmed, some non-existent.. the micro-view could not encompass the disaster.. most of the federal government was standing like deer in the headlights.. but, the highest office and its inner-workings are charged with making the hard decisions, with picking up where others cannot function.. they did not do their jobs.. and to suggest that red-tape and protocol are somehow acceptable excuses for inaction will lead to further abandonment of responsibility.. pat them on their heads and tell 'em it's okay, it's okay to watch Americans die while we try to get permission to save them.. cripe, i can't believe anyone gets stuck here, IT'S NOT OKAY..... don't make excuses, admit the system failed and FIX IT...
Be well..
FuXnDajenariht
09-05-2005, 02:50 PM
it seems like all some people are concerned about is making sure the president and the white house remains blameless for not giving a d@mn :rolleyes:.... he only decided to wake up when he saw his approval rating starting to drop down towards the earths core. tho it was probably karl rove who had to explain the situation to him first.
TaiChiBob
09-05-2005, 02:57 PM
Greetings..
FuXnDajenariht: surprising how little we hear of Karl, lately, huh? :rolleyes:
But, let's not derail the real issue.. accountability and revision..
Be well
MonkeySlap Too
09-05-2005, 03:02 PM
And here I thought you were going to bring up Karl Marx, boob.
MonkeySlap Too
09-05-2005, 03:03 PM
Sorry, bob.
But then again...
FuXnDajenariht
09-05-2005, 03:06 PM
well i like boobs as much as the next guy but im definitely not one, cuz i dont see why i would bring up karl marx either. ;)
mmmm....booooob :D
The levee is repaired after 1 week.
news (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/H/HURRICANE_KATRINA?SITE=KJLL&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT)
Here is the link to the songfact.
put a little love in your heart (http://www.songfacts.com/detail.lasso?id=4314)
I was born in Keelung, Taiwan. It is a seaport in the northern tip of Taiwan. I was alway close to the ocean.
In the late 1980's, I resided in Jackson MS as a graduate student. I frequented N.O. It was my second home. Or home away from home.
In the early 1990's, I moved to Orange county, So Cal. I am close to the ocean.
And then I worked in Southern Jersey, I frequented Atlantic city and Jersey shores.
In 2001, I moved back to south Orange county. I am close to Laguna beach.
Sorry, I have deep feelings about the south.
In the face of the largest disaster that ever hit the country---
I could only find comfort in the 1969 song.
Prayer go to the people in the area.
---
LingChuanPai
09-05-2005, 07:55 PM
Hi to all,
Just letting you know i'm ok. I live in a town north of New Orleans called Hammond. We stuck it out for the storm at my GF's house. To watch huge oak trees up root ang large pines snap in half from the winds, was truely a site. We didnt have flooding...tho there is massive damage to power lines and trees that block the roads. To saw the least its a huge inconvienience to wait in line for gas or food and no tv or electricty (i'm writing from work...a hospital)....but hey my family and I are alive. Lots of devistation going on. :(
LCP
FuXnDajenariht
09-06-2005, 02:19 AM
great to hear that man! best wishes to you and your family.
MonkeySlap Too
09-06-2005, 07:47 AM
Here's a post from a training brother of mine, who is also a very senior LEO in Baton Rouge:
"As a fellow native of the area for 30 years, and an investigator currently working for state government, the post is spot on except for the numbers. New Orleans is around 80% black as many refused to be counted in the census and had no residence or official identification to be counted. Further, all of the offcials and leaders of the area are black. Again, despite the racial inferences and notes, the only "racially charged" matter is others who know nothing about the area coming down inserting a racial theme of injustice who are themselves racist and ignorant of the facts. The area is/was absolutely corrupt and has been since inception in the 17th century. It was founded upon the ideal by the French. The Governor was in over her head but is beginning to see the light. The initial rescue efforts were devoted entirely to saving lives, and had no other resources for further housing or food. This exacerbated the issues. The crime is overwhelmingly black on black in N.O. The rescuers are overwhelmingly white. Is anyone foolish enough to wish to make this a race issue?
Initial looting, pillaging, raping and murder were by those who were abled bodied and carrying pipes, knives and bats in large gangs. If you did not have a firearm during the first couple of days for protection, or were part of the lawlessnes yourself, you were a victim-- plain and simple. There were no firearms available until pawn shops and retail stores were looted, but much violent crime occurred. Attaching violent crime to firearms is the argument of the naive, idiotic and willfully ignorant. The only citizens who have not been taken advantage of were those who were armed and ready. Many of those who were not are dead."
MonkeySlap Too
09-06-2005, 07:55 AM
Now, my opinion is simple;
1.) This is not a race issue, it is a class issue.
2.) The 'champions' of the underclass - the democratic leadership of the state failed thier duty to thier constituants.
3.) Biloxi, which got hit much harder, does not have the same problems, because the governor there took the rigt steps from the get go.
4.) If the state of NO wasn't so corrupt, and the people so willing to engage in crime (well before the current crisis), and had respectable leadership, things would be a bit better.
5.) The feds have issues here too, but the issues are much deeper than 'OOh that bad, bad GWB' - which I'm so sick of hearing everytime somebody ****s that I'll probably miss it when he does f@ck up. Why is the left so emotional and whiney? Can you imagine how bad it would be with John Kerry? We would probably surrendered La to the French...
There are people in need of help. I've donated funds, and sent some spare medical equipment I ended up owning.
What will you be doing to help?
Ou Ji
09-06-2005, 08:29 AM
How dare anyone make this issue political!
Blaming the president for these failures when clearly it was "the democratic leadership of the state".
[insert party line rhetoric here]
SevenStar
09-06-2005, 08:52 AM
Since this tragedy has occured, I've met literally hundreds of people from new orleans who are in town while they are waiting for the devastation to clear up. I've met several who lost everything - it's sad indeed. In an attempt to help, the club I am doing security at is giving a few of them jobs, and also putting them up in a hotel that is run by the owners of the club. our bjj coach has some friends who fight from that area and biloxi we may put up at our school for a while.
From elsewhere on the web:
Must emphasize that following is for serious operators only. Amateurs need not apply.
Gary Jackson from Blackwater called today asking for help in recruiting security personnel to work in New Orleans. He needs 200 operators right away. Pay is $200.00/day, plus expenses. Transportation, per diem, lodging, and necessary equipment provided. No time to train. You need to be good to go when your feet hit the ground. It is a 14-day gig, which will probably be extended. Operators are to provide security for museums, critical infrastructure, and convoys.
Gary emphasized this is no job for amateurs. He needs ‘gun people’ who know how to ‘operate effectively.’
For those interested, Gary’s contact number at Blackwater is: 252 435 2488, ext 324.
I've skimmed through most of these posts and see there is a lively discussion on whom to blame. I'm giving a link to a pretty insightful blog I read concerning "the blame". I agree with it; the blame goes back to every elected administration since Eisenhower. It was known this was commng for a long time.
As far as the gang action - no, there is no excuse. But it is a class thing and you can't tell me it isn't. I spent some of my youth growing up in the rural South during the turbulent years of intergration, and before, and I can rest assure tell you that a white man is quite as capable of being just as animal like as a black man - given the right social, cultural, and economic situations. So what's the solution..... Buy more guns? Open more prisons? N.O. was never a safe city when you wandered out of the tourist areas (and sometimes even there); we always knew that.
http://www.wunderground.com/education/katrina.asp
http://billmon.org/archives/002120.html
MasterKiller
09-06-2005, 12:17 PM
Why is the left so emotional and whiney? What else are you supposed to do when the leadership majority is corrupt and inept?
All this bickering and blame-shifting, not a heart warming situation.
If Global Warming and rising sea-level are even half right, then you guys better get your act together!
TaiChiBob
09-06-2005, 12:34 PM
greetings..
If Global Warming and rising sea-level are even half right, then you guys better get your act together! Precisely.. determine who or what went wrong, and fix it.. start preparing for the next catastrophe..
Be well..
MonkeySlap Too
09-06-2005, 12:47 PM
"What else are you supposed to do when the leadership majority is corrupt and inept?"
Vote them out - it's how we cleaned out the corrupt, inept, and entrenched in the house and senate - Newt Gingrich did a good job cleaning them out of there by setting a clear plan for reformation and delivering on it. The government in LA is corrupt anmd inept - vote them out and stop beleiving in thier idiotic nanny-state claims "Vote for me, and you'll get twinkies for life!"
Chief Fox
09-06-2005, 03:24 PM
'OOh that bad, bad GWB' - which I'm so sick of hearing everytime somebody ****s that I'll probably miss it when he does f@ck up. Why is the left so emotional and whiney? Can you imagine how bad it would be with John Kerry? We would probably surrendered La to the French...
You're right dude, you will miss it, because he's f@cking up right now and you think people are just being emotional and whiney.
Good ol' George W. was at his ranch in Texas on a "working vacation" (whatever that is) for two days after Katrina hit. Hmmmmm. You can't really organize any kind of rescue efforts if you're sitting on you butt at a BBQ eating chicken.
FEMA did a study on this very event happening last year and discovered that a third of New Orleans would not be able to evacuate because they are just too poor. Katrina was a cat 5 for days before it hit. They knew this was going to happen!
The Director of FEMA said on TV that these people had a choice, they could evacuate or they could stay. Then he said that they chose not to evacuate. All the while knowing that the people couldn't evacuate in the first place.
This great new department that we have. You know the one. It's called Homeland Security. Well guess what. It's a total flop. Katrina is proof of that.
This isn't whining. This is the way things are and people are p!ssed off about it and you should be too.
As far as how John Kerry would have handled the situation goes. WHO CARES! The president is George Bush and he is F@CKING UP ROYALY. So wake up!
GunnedDownAtrocity
09-06-2005, 03:32 PM
cant believe i made it through page 6.
sorry if this has been posted between 6 and whatever page this is.
foamy the squirl pretty much sums it up:
http://www.yourdailymedia.com/media/1125664031
PangQuan
09-06-2005, 04:27 PM
You're right dude, you will miss it, because he's f@cking up right now and you think people are just being emotional and whiney.
Good ol' George W. was at his ranch in Texas on a "working vacation" (whatever that is) for two days after Katrina hit. Hmmmmm. You can't really organize any kind of rescue efforts if you're sitting on you butt at a BBQ eating chicken.
FEMA did a study on this very event happening last year and discovered that a third of New Orleans would not be able to evacuate because they are just too poor. Katrina was a cat 5 for days before it hit. They knew this was going to happen!
The Director of FEMA said on TV that these people had a choice, they could evacuate or they could stay. Then he said that they chose not to evacuate. All the while knowing that the people couldn't evacuate in the first place.
This great new department that we have. You know the one. It's called Homeland Security. Well guess what. It's a total flop. Katrina is proof of that.
This isn't whining. This is the way things are and people are p!ssed off about it and you should be too.
As far as how John Kerry would have handled the situation goes. WHO CARES! The president is George Bush and he is F@CKING UP ROYALY. So wake up!
right outa me mouth
You're right dude, you will miss it, because he's f@cking up right now and you think people are just being emotional and whiney.
Good ol' George W. was at his ranch in Texas on a "working vacation" (whatever that is) for two days after Katrina hit. Hmmmmm. You can't really organize any kind of rescue efforts if you're sitting on you butt at a BBQ eating chicken.
FEMA did a study on this very event happening last year and discovered that a third of New Orleans would not be able to evacuate because they are just too poor. Katrina was a cat 5 for days before it hit. They knew this was going to happen!
The Director of FEMA said on TV that these people had a choice, they could evacuate or they could stay. Then he said that they chose not to evacuate. All the while knowing that the people couldn't evacuate in the first place.
This great new department that we have. You know the one. It's called Homeland Security. Well guess what. It's a total flop. Katrina is proof of that.
This isn't whining. This is the way things are and people are p!ssed off about it and you should be too.
As far as how John Kerry would have handled the situation goes. WHO CARES! The president is George Bush and he is F@CKING UP ROYALY. So wake up!
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0509/05/ltm.01.html
S. O'BRIEN: You're telling me the president told you the governor said she needed 24 hours to make a decision?
NAGIN: Yes.
S. O'BRIEN: Regarding what? Bringing troops in?
NAGIN: Whatever they had discussed. As far as what the -- I was abdicating a clear chain of command, so that we could get resources flowing in the right places.
S. O'BRIEN: And the governor said no.
NAGIN: She said that she needed 24 hours to make a decision. It would have been great if we could of left Air Force One, walked outside, and told the world that we had this all worked out. It didn't happen, and more people died.
**In other words, Blanco was still resisting federal control two days after Mayor Nagin was swearing at Bush on the radio for not having taken over yet.**
We haven't heard everything yet.
MonkeySlap Too
09-06-2005, 07:30 PM
Fox, I don't think all the facts are out yet. It's amazing how people make such sweeping statements, often with no idea what FEMA is or how it works, the laws in place regarding these matters OR noticing you don't have the problems in areas just as hard hit in MS or AL -
Here's a clue - FEMA is not a first responder
Here's another clue - there was a plan in place in New Orleans - how come it wasn't followed by the local government?
I'm sure there are things the feds can do better, but I'm also just as sure that the real problem rests with the government in LA.
I've come to the conclusion that the official mascot of the Democratic party is the lemming.
As far as GWB working from home - get real. I do it all the time, and if anything, it frees me from the whining and crying of those who have never shouldered any real responsibility. So I can see why he prefers it.
Here's another clue - there was a plan in place in New Orleans - how come it wasn't followed by the local government? It wasn't followed because the local and state government is incompetent and corrupt and they're trying to hide it by flinging blame around.
I'll back off on that and just say they were negligent IF someone can point out one thing: Where was the water stored for the evacuees?
That's just one little thing their plans called for. To have caches of water on hand for their own citizens in case of evacuation to shelters. So where is it? If it isn't there, what happened to the money that paid for it?
Off topic:
Here is the link to the song;
song (http://music.dnn.cn/gequ/chhhc/)
:D
Chief Fox
09-06-2005, 09:23 PM
Here's a clue - FEMA is not a first responder
I know that FEMA isn't a first responder but what the he!! were they waiting for, a written invitation? I'm pretty sure that the people at FEMA knew that their guidance would be needed in this situation.
Here's another clue - there was a plan in place in New Orleans - how come it wasn't followed by the local government?
I'm not sure, but here's a guess. Because it was totally freakin' destroyed!
I'm sure there are things the feds can do better, but I'm also just as sure that the real problem rests with the government in LA.
No doubt.
I've come to the conclusion that the official mascot of the Democratic party is the lemming.
Ok, and I like cheese, but neither apply here.
As far as GWB working from home - get real. I do it all the time, and if anything, it frees me from the whining and crying of those who have never shouldered any real responsibility. So I can see why he prefers it.
I work from home sometimes too. It works for people like you and I. But he's the president for crying out loud. And he's sitting at a BBQ 2 days after one of the biggest , if not the biggest, natural disasters to hit this country. The guy gets caught flat footed with a dumb look on his face too much.
I'm just p!ssed off man. Not at you, at this whole situation. And now everyone is playing the blame game. And good ol' George W. says this is unacceptable and he's gonna get to the bottom of this. So more blaming is on the way from him. What ever happened to "The buck stops here"?
Video link;
law makers said (http://news.yahoo.com//p/v?u=/ap_av/20050906/av_ap_us/535ace236911d3e7be3bcd3c72e53cbb&cid=448&f=53746353)
President planned to investigate (http://news.yahoo.com/p/v;_ylt=Ak9A_4.Euf_KBd9y0OQReiSz174F;_ylu=X3oDMTBiM W04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl?u=/ap_av/20050906/av_ap_us/b5fd71d60b21b9c77373d974047a810d&cid=448&f=95448452)
Shorin Ryuu
09-06-2005, 11:24 PM
I work from home sometimes too. It works for people like you and I. But he's the president for crying out loud. And he's sitting at a BBQ 2 days after one of the biggest , if not the biggest, natural disasters to hit this country. The guy gets caught flat footed with a dumb look on his face too much.
Presidents never go on vacation. Even if they are "on vacation". Everyone knows that.
If you can get over the your aversion of the name of this blog, I recommend you check it out and get some of your facts straight. The writer assembled all the stories from a single source: New Orleans Times-Picayune. It details what was done from the 26th of August until the 2nd of September. If you scroll up, he is continually adding updates and more current events.
http://rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2005/09/04/katrina-response-timeline/
jetli68
09-07-2005, 02:51 AM
we moan about the weather in the uk been cold but we are lucky we dont get any disasters over here . odd flood now and again. not where i ive but in some parts of the uk. where i live we never get flooded or high snow no sun well hardly
any guess you dont knowwhen you are well off.i am sorry for all the people now who have lost there homes ,loved ones, there lives,
hope it all works out for yous .
TaiChiBob
09-07-2005, 05:17 AM
Greetings..
When all is said and done, this nation is supposed to have a leader, GWB.. he has executive powers to make things happen.. he can make wars happen.. he can order swift response for tsunami victims half-way around the planet.. he has the most sophisticated intelligence services at his disposal.. he has the might of the world's most powerful military in his service.. he has the responsibility to lead his nation in times of crisis.. AND, as i keep repeating, he had the ability to over-ride subordinate political subdivisions in favor of rapid humanitarian aid to victims of Katrina.. it is reprehensible, that anyone with such resources and responsibilities would be so small as to blame the devastated local governments for their inability to respond.. it is further reprehensible that anyone in the office of the Presidency could look into the faces of people pleading for their very lives and not demand extraordinary actions from every available resource..
There will be every means possible used to deflect criticsm.. race blames, poverty blames, local and state agencies blame, resources in Iraq blame.. when, actually, the President could raise the bar.. he could admit that he failed to act appropriately and ask for forgiveness.. make every attempt to make it right from this point forward, and set policy to see that this never happens again.. (it worked for Rush...)..
The system failed at many levels and there will be appropriate scrutiny across the board.. but the highest scrutiny and the highest responsibility falls on the highest office.. this is not a "political issue", it's an issue of national readiness and responsibility, of systemic problems and chain of command, regardless of who is in office..
Be well..
MonkeySlap Too
09-07-2005, 06:44 AM
"What ever happened to the buck stops here?"
Well, I agree with this. GWB would be much strongger if he just absorbed all the blame, justified or not, and took that stupid political finger-pointing game away from the children so they can play better.
But, the problems are systemic and deep. With the money allocatted for this disaster on a local level almost certainly stolen by a corrupt government, with 'leaders' who did not have the political will to act properly, what the feds found when they got there was - no help at all.
The water wasn't 'destroyed' - it wasn't there to begin with. Where is the money?
Living in Chicago now, once again I get to see the democratic party at work. Stealing money, lying to the disadvantaged about helping them while stealing from them. It makes me sick. Yet the multi-millionaire tax-dodgers (despite saying others should pay MORE taxes) in the democratic party continue to convince people that they 'care.'
I don't get it.
I wish we had more political parties in this country, having only one viable one disturbs me.
Here is a video link;
what's in the water? (http://www.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?url=/video/us/2005/09/07/cohen.whats.in.water.pkg.cnn.cnn)
:eek:
we moan about the weather in the uk been cold but we are lucky we dont get any disasters over here . odd flood now and again. not where i ive but in some parts of the uk. where i live we never get flooded or high snow no sun well hardly
any guess you dont knowwhen you are well off.i am sorry for all the people now who have lost there homes ,loved ones, there lives,
hope it all works out for yous .
There is a sense in which you can relate to the scale of this disaster. The swath of destruction is roughly equivalent to the area of England, sans Scotland, itself. We're focused on New Orleans, but Biloxi, MS caught the worst of it and that state's entire infrastructure was more or less scrubbed. We're not hearing much because a] there's little communications & gas, and b] they're handling it in a much more organised fashion.
Because its that huge, one can maybe forgive the confusion and anger to a degree.
Americans lending helping hands;
helps (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-09/07/content_3456860.htm)
:cool:
Chief Fox
09-07-2005, 07:59 AM
The water wasn't 'destroyed' - it wasn't there to begin with. Where is the money?
I agree. It's pretty obvious that there was some under handed stuff going down long before this even happened.
I've made a donation to the Red Cross. I can only hope that some of my money actually goes to helping these people and doesn't end up lining someone's pockets.
It's pretty sad when people loose faith in their leadership.
In the words of Tai Chi Bob, "Be Well".
YuanZhideDiZhen
09-07-2005, 02:49 PM
. I can only hope that some of my money actually goes to helping these people and doesn't end up lining someone's pockets.
typically in the "aid" organisation culture there are administrative and logistical costs associated with every aid mobilisation. the red cross generally does not reveal it's administrative premium as it changes from project to project and has run as high as 93% on one project and as low as 39% on another. typically they run in the 57-63% zone. last number i have for Salvation Army runs a flat 72% premium. so, unless it's a major event (like this) i generally go with organisations that accept provisions, equipment and skill donations as almost all of thier people are volunteers despite the fact that volunteers are often turned away by the aid organisations.
volunteer organisations will sometimes persue evacuees from resource area to resource area where and where as the aid and relief organisations set up camp and expect the victims to find their way there and home.
YuanZhideDiZhen
09-07-2005, 03:03 PM
Greetings..
There will be every means possible used to deflect criticsm.. race blames, poverty blames, local and state agencies blame, resources in Iraq blame.. when, actually, the President could raise the bar.. he could admit that he failed to act appropriately and ask for forgiveness.. make every attempt to make it right from this point forward, and set policy to see that this never happens again.. (it worked for Rush...)..
The system failed at many levels and there will be appropriate scrutiny across the board.. but the highest scrutiny and the highest responsibility falls on the highest office.. this is not a "political issue", it's an issue of national readiness and responsibility, of systemic problems and chain of command, regardless of who is in office..
Be well..
i kind of agree and i kind of don't. IMO, if FEMA had not been placed under DHS access to them would not have been so difficult. previously FEMA was a stand-alone type emergency response network of administrators who were very skilled at first-responder type mobilisations which could declare emergency admistrative authority and control. DHS is not as easily accessible as FEMA was. if the phone numbers haven't changed then that isn't a problem because FEMA went to great lengths to make sure every secretary of every politician and fire chief knew how to get hold of them. why it didn't happen in this case is a great mystery. and unfortunately i think you are correct that we will never know.
but in the history of the event i think FEMA was on the scene rather early but was ill equipped to handle the flood situation. in the formation discussions over FEMA's concept and organisation it was decided that FEMA would appropriate local resources on a mass scale to coordinate efforts over many jurisdictions. in a fuedal type state like Louisiana that would take some doing because they essentially have to ask the local top dogs to requite the decision making process and act as FEMA's dog. ask a lion to guard his mate, then ask some guy from outside the cage to borrow it away from him....
part of FEMA's problem was that power and communications were out throughout the affected areas. how do you get the guys with the boats to do your bidding if thier cellphones and radios don't work? i don't remember which channel i was watching but someone observed that satellite support would be redirected to assist in the communications processes. that took 16 hrs.
YuanZhideDiZhen
09-07-2005, 04:23 PM
i was wrong about the nature of the 24 hour leiway allowed the governor by the president: she asked for it and he replied in the affirmative. it was reported that he said it as "I'll give you 24 hrs" as if he was handing it down, not replying to her request for more time. however it has since been clarified.
five of the storm tracks for ts-ophelia have it crossing florida and barreling into Louisiana. also, hurricane nate is close on her heels... i hope they don't combine and develop an attitude....
bruce and linda: if you're reading this the storms are not your welcoming gift!
Shorin Ryuu
09-07-2005, 05:16 PM
The best way to doublecheck if a charity is worth giving to or not: http://www.charitynavigator.org/
"We rate charities by evaluating two broad areas of financial health, their organizational efficiency and their organizational capacity. We use a set of financial ratios or performance categories to rate each of these two areas, and we issue an overall rating that combines the charity's performance in both areas. Our ratings show givers how efficiently we believe a charity will use their support today, and to what extent the charities are growing their programs and services over time. We provide these ratings so that givers can make intelligent giving decisions, and so that the philanthropic community can more effectively monitor itself."
They are the most accepted source used in evaluating charities.
MonkeySlap Too
09-07-2005, 07:09 PM
It should also be noted the the President PLEADED with Blanco to evacuate low lying areas several days before the hurricane hit.
At the end of the day, this will be another nail in the corrupt, nanny state coffin.
Please rebuild the city.
poll (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/07/katrina.poll/index.html)
:(
There is a website that tags Katrina.
tags (http://technorati.com/tag/Katrina)
Also beware of cyberscam.
kung fu tags (http://technorati.com/tag/kung%20fu)
:)
GunnedDownAtrocity
09-07-2005, 08:57 PM
my opinion of it is pretty simple.
i dont think the government was unprepared. i wonder if they didnt just assess this situation and make some judgment calls on what they felt specific human life was worth. i dont know if its a black thing, i dont think the situation would have been much different had it been a trailer park needing help, i just think that poorer people are worth less in the governments eyes. they simply were not worth the money or effort to act any faster than they did.
i dont know if all the details and arguing in the world could convince me otherwise.
Shaolinlueb
09-07-2005, 09:25 PM
you guys see this?
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05250/566632.stm
Shorin Ryuu
09-07-2005, 09:42 PM
i dont know if all the details and arguing in the world could convince me otherwise.
It is good to see you are so strong in your convictions.
Royal Dragon
09-08-2005, 04:54 AM
GDA ur wacked!!
Seriously, helping is good PR that ANY politition could use!! Who would want to get caught dropping the ball on this? Surely even pure selfish political greed would overshadow any sort of percived "Value" a government official might, or might not have for tyhe people. No matter what the income, to a politition people have alot of value, especially in a situation like this.
No, this is gross ineptinisum, and total bumbling incompetance plain and simple.
MonkeySlap Too
09-08-2005, 05:37 AM
"It's pretty sad when people loose faith in their leadership."
Yes and no Chief Fox. I pretty much don't trust any government, no matter how good. The duty of a citizen is to 'trust but verify'. Remember, government is the number 1 cause of human death and suffering worldwide and historically. People in the West forget because of the explosion of wealth over the past 150 years.
The reason GWB did not take the presidential stance and assume all blame should be obvious. Fools like Kennedy, Pelosi, Dean, et al have been crying for years that GWB should admit his 'mistakes.' Without anything really subsyantial to back up thier desire. It reminds me a tremondously of te show trials under Stalin and the Cultural Revolution where 'imperialist running dogs' needed to 'confess' thier sins. Of course, the dems haven't killed anybody with death squads yet, but as they get more shrill, I'm wondering how log it will be before they start killing people. Hey, the Clinton's had an enemies list, if I was on that list I'd start looking over my shoulder...
There isn't a shred of proof that people where abandonded because they were black. This is an specious, vile argument.
Where they ignored because they were poor, or were they let down by a corrupt local government?
My money is on the latter... I think the facts, and not shrill whining and rending of garments won't change the facts.
Seven Star - brother, that's good news. You continue to impress. Did you check my buddies CD?
FuXnDajenariht
09-08-2005, 06:38 AM
lol yea its a democratic conspiracy.
i can't wait for the stories about how they commissioned scientists to create the hurricane just to accuse the president of incompetence.
Looking for his or her family:
where? (http://jason.designshift.com/blog/2005/09/08/katrina-another-heartbreaking-photo/)
:confused:
TaiChiBob
09-08-2005, 06:55 AM
Greetings..
This is not a "political" issue or a "party" (Dem/Rep) issue.. it's a broken system, run by a broken leader (regardless of the Party).. If Clinton had bungled this i would have felt exactly the same.. Americans died while leaders bickered over red-tape responsibilities.. no one had the balls to take action.. not until agonized faces pleaded for help on national news.. then, their approval ratings suffered and their idea of an emergency emerged (what could be worse than bad PR).. something got done then..
Be well..
ASPCA help pets to reunite with family.
helps (http://www.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?url=/video/us/2005/09/08/udojie.katrina.pet.rescues.cnn)
:cool:
GunnedDownAtrocity
09-08-2005, 11:04 AM
It is good to see you are so strong in your convictions.
im not saying that i would ignore facts to keep my convictions. it's just that so many "facts" get passed around the news and the internet that it's hard to know who to trust. combine that with the fact that im gullible and could easily be led to either side of the argument within 10 minutes and i've learned to be careful.
this is why i used the word "detials." everyone twists details into facts to support whatever opinion they want to support at that moment ... including me. for the most part i just try to stay out of it all.
i've seen whats happened and thought about it ... i got no more than a gut feeling the governemnt could have done more if they wanted and it dont think it was a race thing. i could be 100% wrong and im ok with that.
Of course, the dems haven't killed anybody with death squads yet, but as they get more shrill, I'm wondering how log it will be before they start killing people. Hey, the Clinton's had an enemies list, if I was on that list I'd start looking over my shoulder...
There isn't a shred of proof that people where abandonded because they were black. This is an specious, vile argument.
Where they ignored because they were poor, or were they let down by a corrupt local government?
Three inter-related responses from one cause:
MS2, just wait until the SECOND perfect storm reaches N.O.: A snarling mass of pig-snouted Lawyers. You ain't seen nothing yet.
1] Your right about that being a specious, vile argument - which is exactly why it'll hold water [ahem] in court.
2] The Louisiana Dem Machine is dead now or will soon be, done in not by Republicans but by the very legal frameworks liberals worked so hard to establish. I want Edwards to lead the charge. LOL
3] WRT ignoring the poor & corruption: You're going to see a spotlight on the corruption like never before, but the poor won't see a dime of the settlement cash. SSDD
2000$ debit card per household.
news (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/files/specials/videolineups/video1.html?SITE=NJHAC&SECTION=HOME)
click on FEMA and red cross handing out.
:cool:
Beware of scam said by FBI
scam on internet (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/08/katrina.web.scams.ap/index.html)
watch out for bogus international Red Cross.
risk of id theft.
:eek:
Shorin Ryuu
09-08-2005, 11:59 PM
lol yea its a democratic conspiracy.
i can't wait for the stories about how they commissioned scientists to create the hurricane just to accuse the president of incompetence.
Who said it was a democratic conspiracy? What is being pointed out is they wasted no time in politicizing the issue (joined eagerly by the mainstream media). What this means is that the mainstream media has demonstrated its profound lack of knowledge of the federal government system, as have all the others that have latched on to the blame Bush bandwagon on this issue. Of course, most of them were already on long before this tragic stop occurred.
David Jamieson
09-09-2005, 05:38 AM
all levels of governement civic, state and federal should have been on teh ground and issuing aid on tuesday following the storm.
FEMA has undeniably got a goofball sitting at the head of it. Apparently, he didn't know there was trouble until thursday. This is from Brown "your doing a great job". :rolleyes:
Lol, also, "People who don't want to play the "blame game" are usually the ones to blame".
The Hurrican came, the civic, state and federal government systems have been slow to respond appropriately to the task at hand.
Your system is dysfunctional in regards to handling emergencies and natural disasters. Time to take a look at that, but in the meantime, get these people's lives back in order. And get that city back up and running. Beads and Boobies is an institution for gawds sake!
MonkeySlap Too
09-09-2005, 05:57 AM
So wat's the waiting time for emergency surgery in Canada right now, 6 months?
Just kidding, I couldn't resist.
Guess I should be careful, there are Canadian warships off the coast of Louisiana. We might need to call the girl scouts to take care of it...
I better stop while I'm ahead here....
Seriously, I'm really happy to have Canadians on the ground, generally very nice and kind people, even if they are still serfs to a crown.
On the other hand I'm waiting to see how many of the Mexican soilders go awol to join the U.S....
Just having fun...
TaiChiBob
09-09-2005, 06:11 AM
Greetings..
Who said it was a democratic conspiracy? What is being pointed out is they wasted no time in politicizing the issue (joined eagerly by the mainstream media). What this means is that the mainstream media has demonstrated its profound lack of knowledge of the federal government system, as have all the others that have latched on to the blame Bush bandwagon on this issue. If it suits you to defend the incompetence of the system and its leadership by believing it's being "politicized", you are missing the point.. it doesn't matter which party or whom is in office.. what matters is that the system and the leadership wallowed in indecision for 5 days while its citizens perished due to that indecision.. to defend such incompetence is to invite more of the same.. if you watched your family pleading on national TV for their lives and nothing was being done you may have a different opinion.. what we must know is that we ARE one big family, when one hurts we all hurt..
Pro-active leadership should have urgently mobilized all available resources regardless of red-tape issues.. the US military could have made emergency aid drops of crucial supplies (water and food) within hours of a directive to do so.. where was the directive? Is it reasonable to watch Americans dying on national TV while politicians negotiate who does what? Less than 60 hours after Katrina hit N.O. the Salvation Army had a significent presence in the area and was delivering aid.. where was the US army?
This is the tip of the iceberg. Hopefully, the harsh light of media scrutiny will illuminate the rampant corruption inherent at all levels of Gov't.. We are a 2 faced nation, self-righteous in our ideals, self-degrading in our deeds.. we talk the moral high-road and ride the highway to hell.. most people complain of the system and how it doesn't work, the same people will, generally, take every opportunity to abuse the system in their favor, from questionable tax loop-holes to slipping a building inspector a hundred dollar bill to look the other way while they violate code and save thousands.. We are our own worst enemy.. i'm no saint, i'm like most people, but i see the problem.. we hire lawers to find ways to beat the system, well.. guess what, the system is beaten and broken.. and, it's very likely that a similar disater in any other area would show the same flaws, it's not just a "deep south" thing..
Our founding documents are profound in their simplicity and vision for a free and independent society.. they ask little and provide much, a common cause and defense, a unity of spirit and deed, the "right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness", and a belief that "one for all and all for one" will raise this nation's standards as evidence of the potential for all mankind.. But, the system became the tool for greedy and self-concerned people to use against the less fortunate and less wealthy.. the simple laws were "interpreted" to favor the the same people that "interpreted" them.. resulting in today's millions of pages of laws rules and regulations that we have to hire attorneys to understand, understanding that it was attorneys that crafted these overly complex and self-serving laws in the first place.. Now, we see the inevitably of the complexities the system has created, a system that fails on its own merits.. we pay taxes with the promise of services and protection.. N.O. and the Gulf Coast now see how well those taxes were managed..
The only thing "political" about these issues, is it's the result of politics.. political parties concerned about the party at the expense of the peoples it represents.. Too often we hear about which party did what, we hold political parties accountable for individual indiscretions or we praise them for individual acts of social competence.. The parties absorb and absolve incompetence.. they accept, assimilate, and embellish individual jobs well done.. they self-replicate rather than create..
Here is a nation that has been led to war on deception and manipulation.. depleting its resources to, ostensibly, save a people that will revert to their historic ways as soon as they are left to their own devices.. a war against a nation and its soverign leader based on what it "might do".. Led by a group of people that feel empowered to export their idea of nationalism by force.. we are no longer have a government "of the people, for the people, and by the people", it has become a turf war between two well-dressed gangs posing as politicians.. manipulating the constituents for agendas neither clearly exposed nor in the best interest of the nation's founding principles..
Katrina ripped off a piece of the camouflage and bared the ugly soul of politics.. so, yes, it is time to scrutinize every level of government regardless of party affiliation.. it's time to watch the watchers..
Be well..
So the city is dried after the flood water is pumped out.
The mayor issued an order to evacute everyone.
Some people is still holding out and not willing to leave and even arm themself.
---
The UN is coordinating the flows of international relief, from EU, Mexico etc etc.
The Homeland security chartered cruiseships as shelters.
The FEMA and red cross are handing out debit cards.
Universities are adopting college bound students from N.O.
Neighbors are welcoming the displaced to their homes.
Churches, lemon aid stands and girl scout cookies are raising money, food, water and medicine.
From coast to coast, LA and other cities are building shelters or temp homes for evacuee.
From the children, companies, governments, churches to ---.
Everyone is lending helping hands.
---
Chief Fox
09-09-2005, 07:46 AM
TaiChiBob for President!
PangQuan
09-09-2005, 11:00 AM
TaiChiBob for President!
PangQuan
09-09-2005, 02:12 PM
hmmmm..... (http://www.solisearch.net/ims/pic.php?u=306581eGR9&i=203352)
MonkeySlap Too
09-09-2005, 03:04 PM
Today on CNN Nancy Pelosi got her panties in a bunch because it was pointing out HER voting record hadn't helped New Orleans either...
You know what worries me now? What else is being ignored/ lacks adequate planning.
The dems are determined to turn this into an election issue, despite the huge responsibility owned by members of thier party.
The Repubs are scrambling to make up for f@ck ups/things that did not go well.
Yeah, I think GWB should have taken charge early. But if he sent fed troops in early, and looters got shot - I can only imagine what the dems would be saying now. The difference between me and GWB, is I wouldn't have given a f@ck about being seen as a fascist. It didn't hurt Clinton a bit when he had Janey reno killing religious nuts en masse... (And did they really deserve to die?)
Shorin Ryuu
09-09-2005, 03:40 PM
Greetings..
If it suits you to defend the incompetence of the system and its leadership by believing it's being "politicized", you are missing the point.. it doesn't matter which party or whom is in office.. what matters is that the system and the leadership wallowed in indecision for 5 days while its citizens perished due to that indecision.. to defend such incompetence is to invite more of the same..
Again, the "leadership" at fault here is primarily city and state level leadership. That is where the disconnect between you and I exists. The politicization I am referring to is the blind blame assigned to Bush by those who cite rumor mills rather than fact and use emotive words rather than reference to what actually happens. There is a problem of substantiation of claims, and the vast majority of it is coming from those wishing to bash Bush at all costs.
Pro-active leadership should have urgently mobilized all available resources regardless of red-tape issues.. the US military could have made emergency aid drops of crucial supplies (water and food) within hours of a directive to do so.. where was the directive? Is it reasonable to watch Americans dying on national TV while politicians negotiate who does what? Less than 60 hours after Katrina hit N.O. the Salvation Army had a significent presence in the area and was delivering aid.. where was the US army?
Two things: the "red tape" you are referring to is a little thing we call federalism. The federal government called for action and offered all the help you are talking about, but the state level did not allow them to act. This is all basic U.S. government material...there are certain things the federal government is not allowed to do unless given acquiescence by the state. That lack of acquiescence means the state and local governments are responsible for nearly all the bungling that has occurred.
Where was the army? Let's see...
Thousands were mobilized all across the United States before Katrina even hit.
By 7 a.m. on 29 August, the Louisiana National Guard had about 3,500 called up and assisting in relief efforts. By 8 a.m., the number was almost 3,800. After Katrina hit and before the recently upgraded and completed levees broke, the sentiment at the local and state level was they had "dodged the bullet" yet again. This was echoed in the media. Why weren't there even more? The Louisiana government didn't provide more.
When the levies broke, that is when things got worse. But in addition to those already in place, what about the military? Well, within 24 hours, you had 7,500 National Guard units in place doing relief efforts. You also had around 7,000 mobilizing in Mississippi, 10,000 in Alabama and 8,200 in Florida.
Less than 24 hours after the storm passed through, you had 23 Disaster Medical Assistance Teams from all over the U.S. being staged and onway to affected area.
Seven Urban Search and Rescue task forces and two Incident Support Teams have been deployed and propositioned in Shreveport, La., and Jackson, Miss., including teams from Florida, Indiana, Ohio, Maryland, Missouri, Tennessee, Texas, and Virginia. Three more Urban Search and Rescue teams are in the process of deployment.
The U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) dispatched more than 390 trucks that were beginning to deliver millions of meals ready to eat, millions of liters of water, tarps, millions of pounds of ice, mobile homes, generators, containers of disaster supplies, and forklifts to flood damaged areas. DOT had helicopters and a plane assisting delivery of essential supplies.
All of this within 24 hours of the disaster. Again, no one expected the levees to fail. Consequently, the local and state governments did not allow for a stronger pre-response and initial than this. Once again, knowledge of U.S. government is essential. So within 60 hours, you had around 13,000 state active duty in the area doing relief efforts, with those numbers increasing. You also had a stepped up response by the Active Duty Navy which provided 7,000 troops for relief.
It is ironic you bring up the American Red Cross and the Salvation Army, considering this little tidbit here:
Part of an interview between Hugh Hewitt and Major Garrett, the one who broke the story about how the Louisiana government blocked access to New Orleans for the Red Cross, before and after the hurricane hit.
MG: The Salvation Army basically said look. We...first of all, both agencies also want to let people know that they've served the needs of thousands of people who got out, and who got out just a little bit to high ground, north of New Orleans. But they couldn't get in to meet those needs. They asked to get in. They were prepared with their...the Salvation Army has these ever-familiar portable kitchen canteens, is what they call them. They can actually make food, produce food on spot, and distribute it there. People line up. We've seen that at hurricanes and other natural disasters. They were ready. Not allowed in. At first, it was this idea that we don't want to create a magnet at the evacuation site. Secondarily, it became an issue of well, there's lots of water, and we can't assure your safety, so on and so forth. Here's another key point, Hugh. I was very specific with the American Red Cross, president and CEO Marty Evans, and said wait. Tell me clearly. Were you prepared to go in before the levees broke? Before water became an issue of any kind? She said absolutely. Were you denied access before the levees broke? She said we were denied access from minute one.
Do I need to tell you to read the whole thing here: http://www.radioblogger.com/#000970? I didn't think so...
Now, I know most of my liberal colleagues will scoff and say that is conservative crazy talk. Fortunately, CNN has picked up the story (which only Fox News was reporting). Only they didn't quite pick it up that well...
http://www.cnn.com/2005/uS/09/08/katrina.redcross/index.html
"The national president of the American Red Cross, Marsha Evans, first made the request to undertake the operation during a visit to the state on September 1, three days after Hurricane Katrina struck, a local Red Cross chapter official said."
However, that is a misleading quote. They fail to mention that it was only one of numerous requests for access that was denied.
Days after Katrina hit, they were denied access. Right after Katrina hit, they were denied access. The day Katrina hit, they were denied access. The days before Katrina hit, they were denied access...All by the Louisiana government. But the quote implies the relief effort was only ready to go on 1 September, when in fact such was not the case. They were ready before the Hurricane even hit. They were just denied access at the state and local level. I look forward to the cognitive dissonance and backpedalling in the media when more (and correct) news of this comes out.
This is the tip of the iceberg. Hopefully, the harsh light of media scrutiny will illuminate the rampant corruption inherent at all levels of Gov't..
I expect there will be a lot of red faces after the massive corruption at the state and local levels is more publicly broadcast.
we pay taxes with the promise of services and protection.. N.O. and the Gulf Coast now see how well those taxes were managed..
Again, a misunderstanding of federalism. The taxes which were supposed to go to flood-control efforts are state and local, not federal.
hmmmm..... (http://www.solisearch.net/ims/pic.php?u=306581eGR9&i=203352)
THAT's TaiChiBob? Holy moly! Ixnay on the resident-pay...
Think of the worst president in your lifetime (no need to specify your pick). Think of the worst president that you can imagine. Do you think that such a president should have the authority to take over a state simply because he believes the local authorities are being ineffective? I do not. Remember, the distinction here is between sending in federal resources in response to a request versus taking control of the situation by what is essentially armed force, which has been forbidden under these circumstances since after the Civil War. Furthermore, a President can't simply send in troops without a clear line of command.
If you do believe that the Executive should have the power to invade states and supercede local authority on the basis that they were not doing a good enough job, where would you draw the line?
If you still say 'yes he does have that authority', are you willing to have that same standard apply for all future Presidencies?
Let's say you're all correct in all of your nay-saying: Bush is inept and corrupt, lazy and mean-spirited. He gets thrown out of office.
Now you've got Cheney with that kind of power.
Still want to go there?
Children of the storm or generation K.
Some kids are evacuted to one state by FEMA and the parents to another.
Children are placed away from N.O. and go to different schools.
They are coping with aftermath.
---
Change of guards.
chief change (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-09/10/content_3469550.htm)
Blaming jokes.
jokes (http://www.jokesgalore.com/thejoke.php?id=4468&sql=cat%3D%27Political%27+and&flag=2)
:D
FuXnDajenariht
09-10-2005, 03:24 AM
so you think its better to let people begging for help from anyone, to die? lets see....half of my city is destroyed, my local government is in shambles, hundreds of thousands of people are starving and dehydrated.... i think this situation can be an exception. it isn't so much about taking over the city with armed forces as about coordinating relief efforts. you say they were denied access by local government. well thats the reason they should have their authority overrided by the president atleast momentarily. its a stupid decision on their part. put yourself in the victims shoes. do you really care who has control over your non existent local government when you can't even get clean water?
you say the local government is corrupt but then you say the president shouldn't have control because hes incompetent. you can't have it both ways. someone with the means has to step up. better the leader of the free world with all resources that come with that title. how did anyone expect the N.O. local government to coordinate any relief when they couldn't even get half of their police force to show up for work? the ones that were'nt dead atleast. the city is overrun by national guardsmen now. their just there to keep order and make sure everyone gets food and gets out safe. they aren't fulfilling some paranoid vision about taking over state rights or having everyone under martial law. all anyone is saying is that this could of been done alot sooner. even the president realizes this. some of his supporters dont seem to get it tho.
GunnedDownAtrocity
09-10-2005, 07:39 AM
gda for president!
People helping people (http://www.cnn.com/interactive/us/0509/gallery.citj.relef/frameset.exclude.html)
friends in needs (http://www.cnn.com/interactive/us/0509/gallery.katrina.pets.0907/frameset.exclude.html)
:cool:
FuX-
Were you responding to me? :confused:
FuXnDajenariht
09-10-2005, 08:36 AM
yea i responded to part of what you said but not directed to you specifically.
yea i responded to part of what you said but not directed to you specifically.
Allright.
First, taking it from the POV of someone in need, I agree: They don't care about niceties of law. I do have sympathy for their plight, so remember that.
Second: Leaders, I hope, will be dispassionate & competent rather than emotional & reactive. Part of incompetence lies with guarding your own little fiefdom when it isn't appropriate [as it seems the Gov. did] and part of it lies with not stepping up immediately when crisis comes [as it seems W did].
So I think we're in agreement with those two.
But look at the second. If someone is guarding their fiefdom, and they're backed by the law, how is the other to step up? I'm not trying to 'have it both ways'. I'm trying to say [maybe not clearly] that Bush didn't have that authority because the Gov. would not relinquish it. Didn't have to, either, but she could've coordinated with Bush a whole lot better, don't you think? The methods for dealing with disaster are in place and they'll work *if they're followed*. Why weren't they?
Bush did consider, apparently, using the Insurrection Act to take over LA governing, which would have immediately *deposed* Blanco. He didn't.
Why do you think that is?
Bush offered "two options" to Blanco in a face-to-face private meeting on Wednesday which she asked '24 hours' to consider.
What do you think they might have been?
======
unrelated:
A photo timeline. Very good.
http://tinyurl.com/dutl9
Shorin Ryuu
09-10-2005, 11:20 AM
you say the local government is corrupt but then you say the president shouldn't have control because hes incompetent. you can't have it both ways.
That is the problem with merging two people's arguments together and trying to present them as a contradiction. All I said was that the local governments bear the brunt of the blame. I never asked for it "both ways". And if you read Zim's post a little closer, you would have realized he was proposing a hypothetical question, essentially beginning with "So we'll pretend your Bush Derangement Syndrome fantasies prove true, what if..."
the city is overrun by national guardsmen now. their just there to keep order and make sure everyone gets food and gets out safe. they aren't fulfilling some paranoid vision about taking over state rights or having everyone under martial law.
What does that have to do with my argument? Nothing at all. The fact of the matter is, we all wanted those national guardsmen in sooner, but local and state authorities waited too long. The guardsmen themselves did a great job of getting to the area as soon as they could (people think for some reason they can suddenly appear as soon as the order is given). That was never the issue, so I don't see where you are going with this.
all anyone is saying is that this could of been done alot sooner. even the president realizes this. some of his supporters dont seem to get it tho.
Yes I agree. It should have been sooner, but it is the responsibility of the state and local governments to be the first-line of defense against these disasters. That is why we have state and local governments in the first place. It isn't a failure of the system, it is the failure of those in the state and local governments at the time.
PangQuan
09-10-2005, 12:09 PM
THAT's TaiChiBob? Holy moly! Ixnay on the resident-pay...
lmao......
TaiChiBob
09-10-2005, 12:12 PM
Greetings..
The politicization I am referring to is the blind blame assigned to Bush by those who cite rumor mills rather than fact and use emotive words rather than reference to what actually happens. There is a simple observable "fact".. this nation watched in dis-belief as victims of a natural disaster begged for help and none arrived.. anyone can put their "facts" into a spreadsheet matrix and derive whatever statistics supports their beliefs.. what you can't do is offer your facts to the victims as help .. help is a motivated leadership willing to overlook obstacles of red-tape in order to execute the prime-directive.. protect its citizens.. "emotive words"?.. let's see, cold structured political systems failed on the principle that there is a hierarchy of command and response.. we needed an "emotive" response, a "git 'er done" directive, what we got was a system that failed its task due to following specific unemotional codes of heirarchy..
the "red tape" you are referring to is a little thing we call federalism. The federal government called for action and offered all the help you are talking about, but the state level did not allow them to act. This is all basic U.S. government material...there are certain things the federal government is not allowed to do unless given acquiescence by the state. That lack of acquiescence means the state and local governments are responsible for nearly all the bungling that has occurred. "the state and local governments are responsible", really? The executive office will embrace that notion with tender arms.. because surely, the President was powerless to act on behalf of the people that elected him to protect them, "the state level did not allow them to act".. So, when the president asks to help and is refused, he just says "okay"? He just goes back to his TV and looks at the hopelessness and says "gosh, i wish i could help"? I am not a "Bush hater", i wish he were worthy of the office.. but, "desperate times call for desperate measures", a "leader" knows when to take charge.. this one did not. DO NOT LET FACTS AND FIGURES DISGUISE A DEFICIENCY OF COMMON SENSE!!! Arguements of states rights and federalism are secondary to simple good common sense, the missing variable..
Scenario: It is day 2, the levees are failing, N.O. is flooding.. towns and villages along the gulf are wiped out, no services and no ground access.. people are pleading for help.. there are still smaller communities from which NO communication has been made.. Does the sanctity of the political system yield in favor of rendering humanitarian aid, or continue to negotiate with ravaged local governments as people perish.. this is a "no-brainer", but somehow, those that have elevated GWB to the status of a saint will find solace in the mantra "the states wouldn't let him help".. Katrina didn't play by the rules, the local gov'ts corrupted the rules decades earlier, media news teams got around rules to be on-site in the worst of it.. but, the US federal gov't was happy to sit and let the "rules" dictate the fates of its citizens.. in this country's worst natural disaster it was the rules that were the detriment.. and no one was there to take charge and abandon the failing system in favor of a common-sense solution..
Do you think that such a president should have the authority to take over a state simply because he believes the local authorities are being ineffective? I do not. Remember, the distinction here is between sending in federal resources in response to a request versus taking control of the situation by what is essentially armed force, which has been forbidden under these circumstances since after the Civil War. Now, ask any of the people that were stranded at the convention center amid rotting corpses and human waste and lack of basic needs the same question.. if whover was President could have helped them, should they have waited for proper protocol? "simply because he believes the local authorities are being ineffective"? it wasn't a belief, it was an observable reality.. "take over a state"? what a distorted perspective, easily attributed to a defensive posturing trying to shield the venerable GWB.. try this perspective, rendering humanitarian aid.. sounds a bit more realistic doesn't it?
If you do believe that the Executive should have the power to invade states and supercede local authority on the basis that they were not doing a good enough job, where would you draw the line? We have drawn way too many "lines", lines between local, state and federal gov't are the same lines that common-sense stumbled over.. how about we simply respond to the demands of the situation.. elect intelligent representatives rather than wealthy and influential politicians, complete with their politically appointed cronies..
How cold and uncompassionate does one have to be to assert that this nation's leadership acted appropriately.. to assert that the rules of order (the dysfunctional ones at that) are desirable over the preservation of life and health.. Have we become so politically correct as to devalue the sanctity of life..
I'm trying to say [maybe not clearly] that Bush didn't have that authority because the Gov. would not relinquish it. Cripe!! so while these guys quibble over laws and rights.. people are being denied their basic rights to "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness".. Bush had the ways and means to mitigate this catastrophe in great measure, but neither the common sense or balls to do so.. If i'm a police officer from another state and i see a man with a gun about to kill someone do i ignore the obvious simply because i'm out of my jurisdiction?.. or, do i take responsibility for my time on this planet and act accordingly.. Katrina posed a unique situation that called for thinking outside the box, for creative solutions, rule breaking and common-sense.. we cannot excuse the lack of these attributes with rules that did not serve the situation..
My question is this.. Are the rules of law and order superior to the people which they were concieved to protect? i suggest that there is only one prime "rule".. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you now, apply this to the various scenarios posed on this thread, put yourself on a roof top for three days without food and water.. and tell me, with a straight face, that you would have preferred that the president negotiate your fate according to protocol as opposed to asserting his leadership responsibilities in the face of failing local response..
Be well..
TaiChiBob
09-10-2005, 12:58 PM
Greetings..
THAT's TaiChiBob? Holy moly! Ixnay on the resident-pay... Okay, Okay.. so i had a bad hair day.. gimme a break..
The guardsmen themselves did a great job of getting to the area as soon as they could (people think for some reason they can suddenly appear as soon as the order is given). Uh, i seem to recall that the media was there days before the guard.. asking the questions "where's the guard, where's the aid".. the same media that supplied the gov't with live feeds from the Iraq invasion.. while the Gov't said it got its info from CNN.. It seems that the media is more capable than than those whose job it is to BE capable..
It isn't a failure of the system, it is the failure of those in the state and local governments at the time. Redundancy!! when the local gov't fails the state steps up, when the state fails the Feds step up (or go on vacation).. where was Cheney, again? Listen, these were tough times, systems failed and there was no leadership response. Why is that so hard to admit? the real lesson will be to insure this doesn't happen again.. (like, don't rebuild a city below sea-level in Hurricane Alley).. The President himself admitted the response was unacceptable, but then modified it to shore-up the party line.. and tell us again how "Brownie" did such a good job.. only to relieve him of the duties he was doing so good at.. (indecision, as i've pointed out earlier).. This administration has cultivated a legacy of missing the mark, don't challenge that notion, it's just too easy to demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt..
If someone is guarding their fiefdom, and they're backed by the law, how is the other to step up? Let's see.. he figured it out in Iraq!
The methods for dealing with disaster are in place and they'll work *if they're followed*. Why weren't they? That's a matter to be dealt with AFTER we save lives and restore some kind of services.. the facts are that they didn't work.. chaos was the order of the day.. and no one took control.. We have a crisis of leadership, the nation sees it, the world sees it.. only die-hard Bush supporters don't see it.. they need to stop worshiping their leader and demand that he actually LEAD the most powerful and advanced nation on the planet..
Be well..
Cripe!! so while these guys quibble over laws and rights.. people are being denied their basic rights to "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness".. Bush had the ways and means to mitigate this catastrophe in great measure, but neither the common sense or balls to do so.. Hey, guess what? I'm not disagreeing with you. I, too, believe they shouldn't have 'quibbled'. Difference is, I say it wasn't Bush doing the quibbling.
Why didn't he take over the state? Why wouldn't he?
That's a matter to be dealt with AFTER we save lives and restore some kind of services.. But you're proposing solutions now. Now's the time since you picked it.
TaiChiBob
09-10-2005, 01:39 PM
Greetings..
I say it wasn't Bush doing the quibbling The evidence suggests otherwise.. he was either quibbling or sitting in a trance.. he wasn't taking charge.. Quibbling requires two players.. otherwise one is just talking with themself.. too many people protecting their policical treasures at the expense of the victims.. It is in Bush's favor to be considered as quibbling, otherwise he was just asleep at the wheel..
Be well..
Royal Dragon
09-10-2005, 02:50 PM
God, the paraniod, military survivalist wacko's were all right after all!
It does not matter WHO is in the government. Government involvement ****s up everything! This whole situation is proof of that on a monumental scale!
The mayor ****ed up, the governor ****ed up, and Bush ****ed up.
The question here is "who do we vote for that would have been better"?
I say no one. Being active in politics requires a certian " Dumbing of the mind ". There isn't anyone avaliable who would have done this right, because polititions are just not cut out to be leaders. No matter WHO was Mayor, Governor or president, this tragedy would not have been avoided.
It was beyond the scope of a polititions capabilities to coupe here. They are dumb animals, and we cannot rely on thier help in a crisis. We must be prepared to deal with crisis's as they come ourselves.
What kills me is the paraniod, paramilitary surviveilist wacko's WERE RIGHT!! about everything they ever said, and they are the only ones smart enough to survive things like this because they are the only ones strong enough to take their own fate into thier own hands no matter how insane they may "Appear" to everyone else.
I only wish i hadn't written them off as lunatics...I may need to seek refuge in thier Y-2K bunker someday, and i don't remember where it is anymore.
40,000 volunteers needed.
red cross (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/10/katrina.impact/index.html)
This is the largest recruitment in 125 years of red cross history.
Red cross was everywhere such as in WWI, WWII and even Tian An Men square 1989.
:cool:
:eek:
Katrina costs (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050910/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/katrina_calculating_costs_8)
God, the paraniod, military survivalist wacko's were all right after all!
It does not matter WHO is in the government. Government involvement ****s up everything! This whole situation is proof of that on a monumental scale!
The mayor ****ed up, the governor ****ed up, and Bush ****ed up.
The question here is "who do we vote for that would have been better"?
I say no one. Being active in politics requires a certian " Dumbing of the mind ". There isn't anyone avaliable who would have done this right, because polititions are just not cut out to be leaders. No matter WHO was Mayor, Governor or president, this tragedy would not have been avoided.
It was beyond the scope of a polititions capabilities to coupe here. They are dumb animals, and we cannot rely on thier help in a crisis. We must be prepared to deal with crisis's as they come ourselves.
What kills me is the paraniod, paramilitary surviveilist wacko's WERE RIGHT!! about everything they ever said, and they are the only ones smart enough to survive things like this because they are the only ones strong enough to take their own fate into thier own hands no matter how insane they may "Appear" to everyone else.
I only wish i hadn't written them off as lunatics...I may need to seek refuge in thier Y-2K bunker someday, and i don't remember where it is anymore.
Royal Dragon has a "come to Jesus" moment... :D
BlueTravesty
09-10-2005, 10:59 PM
Greetings..
Redundancy!! when the local gov't fails the state steps up, when the state fails the Feds step up (or go on vacation).. where was Cheney, again? Listen, these were tough times, systems failed and there was no leadership response. Why is that so hard to admit? the real lesson will be to insure this doesn't happen again.. (like, don't rebuild a city below sea-level in Hurricane Alley).. The President himself admitted the response was unacceptable, but then modified it to shore-up the party line.. and tell us again how "Brownie" did such a good job.. only to relieve him of the duties he was doing so good at.. (indecision, as i've pointed out earlier).. This administration has cultivated a legacy of missing the mark, don't challenge that notion, it's just too easy to demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt..
I don't think anyone has failed to admit that the government should have acted sooner. Even the Bush supporters I know don't think the response was acceptable. However, things happened just as you suggested- the local government didn't step up, the state made a tentative effort, and backed down, and then the federal government stepped in. Did they do so too late? Yes.
Can we get some febreeze in here? This dead horse is letting off some serious fumes.
And how about this- is there anyone on either side of this debate who hasn't donated to the relief effort yet? Because quibbling on a message board as a private citizen is much worse than any government quibbling (of course, that's what governments do, they quibble; it's about 50% of their job even in the worst of times)- as private citizens we have much more freedom to act upon our convictions then even individuals at the highest levels of government.
octagonal raven
09-11-2005, 02:50 AM
wow, I strongly dislike you after reading this thread tai chi bob. You seem to be a liberal tool and I mean that in the nicest possible way. :)
FuXnDajenariht
09-11-2005, 04:55 AM
so says the guy with 6 posts to his name whos contributed nothing to this thread or to the forum.
MonkeySlap Too
09-11-2005, 05:11 AM
So TCB, you think there are too many lines, too many rules. We could be more efficient.
Sooo... where else can we apply that? Criminals deprive us of life and liberty, maybe the Patriot Act should apply to common crime.
Heck, checks and balances are such a bother... Who else thought that way? Oh, 'dear leaders' like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot...
The rules protect us also. It is a shame that the La government was incompetent. It's a shame GWB wasn't harder on them earlier. But I still wouldn't remove the checks and balances. But I would remove outright incompetent folks like you see down in La. I would also - focus on other weakspots. This could be turned into an opportunnity to fix other things our muddled politicians ignore.
FuXnDajenariht
09-11-2005, 06:04 AM
Claim: New Orleans mayor Ray Nagin and Louisiana governor Kathleen Blanco refused President Bush's pleas to declare an emergency in Louisiana before Hurricane Katrina struck.
Status: False.
Example: [Collected via e-mail, 2005]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is a post from a fellow over in Merritt Is, FL, a reporter who's been researching what went on before the storm hit:
I think all of Nagin's pomp and posturing is going to bite him hard in the near future as the lies and distortions of his interviews are coming to light.
On Friday night before the storm hit Max Mayfield of the National Hurricane Center took the unprecedented action of calling Nagin and Blanco personally to plead with them to begin MANDATORY evacuation of NO and they said they'd take it under consideration. This was after the NOAA buoy 240 miles south had recorded 68' waves before it was destroyed.
President Bush spent Friday afternoon and evening in meetings with his advisors and administrators drafting all of the paperwork required for a state to request federal assistance (and not be in violation of the Posse Comitatus Act or having to enact the Insurgency Act). Just before midnight Friday evening the President called Governor Blanco and pleaded with her to sign the request papers so the federal government and the military could legally begin mobilization and call up. He was told that they didn't think it necessary for the federal government to be involved yet. After the President's final call to the governor she held meetings with her staff to discuss the political ramifications of bringing federal forces. It was decided that if they allowed federal assistance it would make it look as if they had failed so it was agreed upon that the feds would not be invited in.
Saturday before the storm hit the President again called Blanco and Nagin requesting they please sign the papers requesting federal assistance, that they declare the state an emergency area, and begin mandatory evacuation. After a personal plea from the President Nagin agreed to order an evacuation, but it would not be a full mandatory evacuation, and the governor still refused to sign the papers requesting and authorizing federal action. In frustration the President declared the area a national disaster area before the state of Louisiana did so he could legally begin some advanced preparations. Rumor has it that the President's legal advisers were looking into the ramifications of using the insurgency act to bypass the Constitutional requirement that a state request federal aid before the federal government can move into state with troops - but that had not been done since 1906 and the Constitutionality of it was called into question to use before the disaster.
Throw in that over half the federal aid of the past decade to NO for levee construction, maintenance, and repair was diverted to fund a marina and support the gambling ships. Toss in the investigation that will look into why the emergency preparedness plan submitted to the federal government for funding and published on the city's web site was never implemented and in fact may have been bogus for the purpose of gaining additional federal funding as we now learn that the organizations identified in the plan were never contacted or coordinating into any planning - though the document implies that they were.
The suffering people of NO need to be asking some hard questions as do we all, but they better start with why Blanco refused to even sign the multi-state mutual aid pack activation documents until Wednesday which further delayed the legal deployment of National Guard from adjoining states. Or maybe ask why Nagin keeps harping that the President should have commandeered 500 Greyhound busses to help him when according to his own emergency plan and documents he claimed to have over 500 busses at his disposal to use between the local school busses and the city transportation busses - but he never raised a finger to prepare them or activate them.
This is a sad time for all of us to see that a major city has all but been destroyed and thousands of people have died with hundreds of thousands more suffering, but it's certainly not a time for people to be pointing fingers and trying to find a bigger dog to blame for local corruption and incompetence. Pray to God for the survivors that they can start their lives anew as fast as possible and we learn from all the mistakes to avoid them in the future.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- Origins: Sorting out who should have done what, and when, to head off the disaster in New Orleans produced by Hurricane Katrina will undoubtedly take a very long time (and the issue may never ultimately be resolved). A preliminary timeline doesn't seem to support the sequence of events claimed in the article quoted above, however:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
On Friday night before the storm hit Max Mayfield of the National Hurricane Center took the unprecedented action of calling Nagin and Blanco personally to plead with them to begin MANDATORY evacuation of NO and they said they'd take it under consideration.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- - According to the St. Petersburg Times, Max Mayfield of the National Hurricane Center contacted government officials in Louisiana and Mississippi on Saturday night (27 August), not Friday night:
~~~~~~~~~~~
On Saturday night, Mayfield was so worried about Hurricane Katrina that he called the governors of Louisiana and Mississippi and the mayor of New Orleans. On Sunday, he even talked about the force of Katrina during a video conference call to President Bush at his ranch in Crawford, Texas.
In frustration the President declared the area a national disaster area before the state of Louisiana did so he could legally begin some advanced preparations.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- - Although the Bush administration was evidently negotiating with Governor Blanco as early as Friday evening, the claim that "the President declared the area a national disaster area before the state of Louisiana did" appears to be based on an erroneous statement made by an unnamed Bush administration official, as reported in the Washington Post (emphasis ours):
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Behind the scenes, a power struggle emerged, as federal officials tried to wrest authority from Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco (D). Shortly before midnight Friday, the Bush administration sent her a proposed legal memorandum asking her to request a federal takeover of the evacuation of New Orleans, a source within the state's emergency operations center said Saturday.
The administration sought unified control over all local police and state National Guard units reporting to the governor. Louisiana officials rejected the request after talks throughout the night, concerned that such a move would be comparable to a federal declaration of martial law. Some officials in the state suspected a political motive behind the request. "Quite frankly, if they'd been able to pull off taking it away from the locals, they then could have blamed everything on the locals," said the source, who does not have the authority to speak publicly.
A senior administration official said that Bush has clear legal authority to federalize National Guard units to quell civil disturbances under the Insurrection Act and will continue to try to unify the chains of command that are split among the president, the Louisiana governor and the New Orleans mayor.
Louisiana did not reach out to a multi-state mutual aid compact for assistance until Wednesday, three state and federal officials said. As of Saturday, Blanco still had not declared a state of emergency, the senior Bush official said.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- - In fact, Governo Blanco had already declared a state of emergency for the state of Louisiana the day before (26 August). The Washington Post later issued a correction to their article, noting that "A Sept. 4 article on the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina incorrectly said that Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco (D) had not declared a state of emergency. She declared an emergency on Aug. 26."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Saturday before the storm hit the President again called Blanco and Nagin requesting they please sign the papers requesting federal assistance, that they declare the state an emergency area, and begin mandatory evacuation. After a personal plea from the President Nagin agreed to order an evacuation, but it would not be a full mandatory evacuation, and the governor still refused to sign the papers requesting and authorizing federal action
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- - On Saturday (27 August), Governor Blanco did indeed request that President Bush "declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina." The White House responded to Governor Blanco's request that same day (Saturday) by declaring the emergency and authorizing FEMA "to identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency."
FuXnDajenariht
09-11-2005, 06:26 AM
http://www.snopes.com/photos/katrina/looters.asp
"Claim: Photograph captions describe a black man "looting" and a white couple "finding" supplies in the wake of Hurricane Katrina.
Status: True......"
thats bullsh!t... :rolleyes:
TaiChiBob
09-11-2005, 10:35 AM
Greetings..
wow, I strongly dislike you after reading this thread tai chi bob. You seem to be a liberal tool and I mean that in the nicest possible way. I am neither a liberal tool, nor an indoctrinated fool.. (infer as you choose).. I try, with measured effort, to see things as they are.. i often find truth at odds with perception.. i respect your opinion of me, and.. if i had to choose between being a liberal tool, or a conservative fool.. i would still reject the choices and make my own way.. remember: a tool gets somthing done, a fool assumes they are always right.. (there's a pun in there, work with me, here...)
The rules protect us also. It is a shame that the La government was incompetent. It's a shame GWB wasn't harder on them earlier. But I still wouldn't remove the checks and balances. But I would remove outright incompetent folks like you see down in La. I would also - focus on other weakspots. This could be turned into an opportunnity to fix other things our muddled politicians ignore.
MonkeySlap Too: That response was precisely what i intended with the reference to "too many lines".. i agree, and what we need is people in places of power that have the vision and integrity necessary to know when to see the lines as beneficial or as harmful and make the wise choices needed.. Lines drawn on paper do not separate reality, we need realists.. from space there are no lines on the planet, lines are contrived conceptual symbols, not natural universal principles..
In closing: the Serenity Prayer speaks to us all.. and, please regard "God" as whatever guiding force motivates your existence..
God, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
Someone should have known "the difference" and had the "courage".. because there was no "serenity" in watching our brothers and sisters perish in the face of a failing system..
Be well..
BlueTravesty
09-11-2005, 12:02 PM
http://www.snopes.com/photos/katrina/looters.asp
"Claim: Photograph captions describe a black man "looting" and a white couple "finding" supplies in the wake of Hurricane Katrina.
Status: True......"
thats bullsh!t... :rolleyes:
Those two photographs are also from two different news services, so no that does not reflect racial profiling. :cool:
TaiChiBob
09-11-2005, 12:24 PM
Greetings..
BlueTravesty: No, it is not "racial profiling".. it is evidence of prejudice, whites surviving if the face of devastation.. Blacks looting and taking advantage of the devastation.. in both cases whites AND blacks are looting AND surviving.. the captions to the pictures reveals how deeply we hold onto sterotypical notions.. how easy it is to sway perception..
Of much deeper concern is how did things get to this point.. what causes people to choose to act destructively.. what causes people to assign differing values to the same act committed by different races, is it because that's what we (whites AND blacks) "want" to believe? Whites use it to justify racism, Blacks use it to justify acts in defiance of White prejudice.. This same mentality evaluates education and job opportunities.. a glimpse into the problem..
Be well..
MonkeySlap Too
09-11-2005, 12:41 PM
"what causes people to assign differing values to the same act committed by different races, is it because that's what we (whites AND blacks) "want" to believe? Whites use it to justify racism, Blacks use it to justify acts in defiance of White prejudice.. This same mentality evaluates education and job opportunities.. a glimpse into the problem.."
Bob, you finally said something I'll agree with. It pains me greatly based upon how I grew up, but you can't deny that racism is a powerful force. This is true and prevelant in ALL human societies, but we have a rather agressive self-created effort to confront it. Sometimes it goes too far into the realm of 'newspeak', but I often view the going to far as required to snap things over to the middle.
The problem we face today however, is that we have lost site of Martin Luther King's message to 'judge a man by the content of his character rather than the color of his skin,' Character seems out the window... which is a cultural issue much bigger than the race issue... and bodes ill for us all.
This is compounded by the fact that our media - suppossed 'mainstream' and the hip hop culture is resoundingly negative and reflects the worst traits of humanity. I had a beer with blues legend Buddy Guy about 8 years ago, and he was lamenting not just that blues were being forgotten, but that what has replaced it celebrates hatred, killing, demeans women, etal. "How did this become popular?" I had no answer for him.
On the other hand, seeing the casual sh!t friends of mine who are African-American put up with on a daily basis, I don't think I'd be as well adjusted as they are, I'd be pretty p!ssy. So yeah, there is an issue here. Not an excuse, but an issue.
And it needs to be faced honestly as a cultural issue - not a racial one.
BlueTravesty
09-11-2005, 12:59 PM
Greetings..
BlueTravesty: No, it is not "racial profiling".. it is evidence of prejudice, whites surviving if the face of devastation.. Blacks looting and taking advantage of the devastation.. in both cases whites AND blacks are looting AND surviving.. the captions to the pictures reveals how deeply we hold onto sterotypical notions.. how easy it is to sway perception..
Of much deeper concern is how did things get to this point.. what causes people to choose to act destructively.. what causes people to assign differing values to the same act committed by different races, is it because that's what we (whites AND blacks) "want" to believe? Whites use it to justify racism, Blacks use it to justify acts in defiance of White prejudice.. This same mentality evaluates education and job opportunities.. a glimpse into the problem..
Be well..
I could understand this point of view if the photos and captions had come from THE SAME SOURCE. If the Christian Science Monitor writes an article on its usual "Modern Medicine is Evil" stance, and a New York Times columnist writes a glowing review for a book on herbal remedies, do we conclude that the media has an anti-drug company slant? Or do we realize that the articles are from completely different sources, and therefore shouldn't be used to draw a conclusion about the media in general?
But hey, I guess Kanye West is able to use these underhanded tactics to build his "Bush Hates African Americans" soapbox. Seems to be working pretty well. I guess if you say something controversial enough about a controversial figure, people will believe it, no matter how unsubstantiated it is. And don't get me wrong; I don't like Dubya too much either, but if there's one thing I don't like it's people using the word "racist" as a weapon to get what they want.
FuXnDajenariht
09-11-2005, 02:30 PM
the point is that the media as a whole seems (meaning it doesn't necessarily mean its true) to be a bit biased. granted a majority of the looters left behind were black so stastically atleast a couple that are caught on film would be looters, but they shouldn't label them all en mass out of context or without proof. its bad business. now its causing potential donors to be unsympathetic to the victims because their after all "a bunch of rapists and looters". its wrong that everyone gets a bad wrap like that. read any blog out there.
and i dont think anyone, himself included takes what Kayne West said seriously. im surprised he rocketed his giant ego back from the moon long enough to take the time to criticise anyone.
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